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Tao the Ninja
2010-02-18, 07:07 PM
Is there a 20-level build that gets SA+20d6? Just a random thought. There's Rogue1/Wilderness Rogue1/Sneak Attack Fighter1/Spellthief1/?

drengnikrafe
2010-02-18, 07:09 PM
/assassin 1.
I don't know if it's possible, but I figured I would help with the suggestion of a SA advancing prestige class.

Kurald Galain
2010-02-18, 07:10 PM
Is there a 20-level build that gets SA+20d6? Just a random thought. There's Rogue1/Wilderness Rogue1/Sneak Attack Fighter1/Spellthief1/?

...probably, if you also allow for SA-boosting items and spells.

FishAreWet
2010-02-18, 07:10 PM
You can get more then triple that.

Viletta Vadim
2010-02-18, 07:12 PM
A human Factotum 20 with 30 Int and two flaws and ten instances of Font of Inspiration has 65 inspiration, which can all be blown on a single attack for 65d6 Sneak Attack damage.

Otherwise? Such a build probably isn't too hard. It'd probably involve Assassin's Stance and Hunter's Eye with a lot of casting PrCs that progress Sneak Attack damage. Spellthief shenanigans could get you a crazy-high caster level to let you get all of that through Hunter's Eye.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-18, 07:14 PM
IIRC PlzbrkmyCampg (sorry If I misspell) did a 20 lvl build that top'd that

BenTheJester
2010-02-18, 07:15 PM
My level 1 zombie commoner will beat you



(ok, maybe not)

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-18, 07:17 PM
My level 1 zombie commoner will beat you



(ok, maybe not)

Truedeath crystal or Penetrating Strike ACF from dungeonscape

Tao the Ninja
2010-02-18, 07:19 PM
Truedeath crystal or Penetrating Strike ACF from dungeonscape

or UMD a scroll/wand of grave strike

Siosilvar
2010-02-18, 07:31 PM
Is there a 20-level build that gets SA+20d6? Just a random thought. There's Rogue1/Wilderness Rogue1/Sneak Attack Fighter1/Spellthief1/?

/Psionic Rogue 1/Ninja 1 (technically Sudden Strike)/Ronin 1 (if you can qualify)/Invisible Blade 1

Demons_eye
2010-02-18, 07:35 PM
Rogue 2/Swash buckler 2/Wild rogue 2/ Sneak attack fighter 2/ Spell thief 2/Sword sage 2/ Blood line 3/Bloodline 2/ X 3

Daring outlaw and Assassin stance gets you alot

Myou
2010-02-18, 07:38 PM
A human Factotum 20 with 30 Int and two flaws and ten instances of Font of Inspiration has 65 inspiration, which can all be blown on a single attack for 65d6 Sneak Attack damage.

Otherwise? Such a build probably isn't too hard. It'd probably involve Assassin's Stance and Hunter's Eye with a lot of casting PrCs that progress Sneak Attack damage. Spellthief shenanigans could get you a crazy-high caster level to let you get all of that through Hunter's Eye.

The ability doesn't say extra points give extra sneak attack. What makes you think they do?

lsfreak
2010-02-18, 07:41 PM
From Eldariel, in a post 2 or three weeks ago.


Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 7/Arcane Trickster 8. +8d6 base dice.

Feats:
Extend Spell
Persistent Spell
Martial Study: Cloak of Deception
Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance
Arcane Disciple: War
Metamagic School Focus: Evocation
Practiced Spellcaster

Trait:
Spellgifted: Divination.

Caster Level Boosting:
UMD Beads of Karma +4
Orange Prism Ioun Stone +1
Ring of Arcane Might +1
Robe of Arcane Might +1 Competence
Magical Tattoo +1
Band of Spell Enhancement +2
Adept Spirit +1 Insight
Spell Enhancer +2

This gives you a total of CL 36 for Hunter's Eye. Then you, using normal slots, persist:
Divine Power (with help from Metamagic School Focus)
Hunter's Eye
Sniper's Shot
Guided Shot
Golemstrike/Vinestrike/Gravestrike

No range limit on SAs, able to hit targets with Concealment with SA, etc. Hunter's Eye gives you +1d6 SA per 3 caster levels, so CL 36 means you get +12d6 SA giving you +20d6 SA total. +22d6 with Assassin's Stance. Divine Power means you have full BAB.


Better caster can beat this rather easily (I didn't, for example, use Shapechange into that one creature with inherent ~+7d6 SA nor did I really optimize the Caster Level; Divine does that better as do tricks), but this is a decent baseline. I also didn't bind anything nor did I use soulmelds. All of those add more too.

Riffington
2010-02-18, 09:13 PM
There's Rogue1/Wilderness Rogue1

Can't have both.

Viletta Vadim
2010-02-19, 03:59 PM
The ability doesn't say extra points give extra sneak attack. What makes you think they do?
It's untyped damage without any restriction on how many times you can use it. All the other Factotum abilities are quite pointed; Cunning Insight is a non-stacking insight bonus. Cunning Knowledge is once per day per skill. Cunning Defense specifies that it works once per opponent. Cunning Strike? No such constraints. And, it makes sense in making the ability not suck. 1d6 sneak attack is pretty much irrelevant at all levels, after all.

Spend a point, get 1d6 sneak attack. Spend a point and spend a point, get 1d6 and 1d6. Spend a point sixty times, get 1d6 sixty times, and it all stacks. There's no associated action type or limit on use, so the question becomes, why couldn't you? After all, if you just blew ten feats and twenty levels on getting 65 inspiration, you deserve that 65d6 sneak attack damage, particularly considering it'd leave you useless for the rest of the fight and it's wasted if it misses.

Curmudgeon
2010-02-19, 04:19 PM
It's untyped damage without any restriction on how many times you can use it.
..
Spend a point, get 1d6 sneak attack. Spend a point and spend a point, get 1d6 and 1d6.
You're forgetting the most basic rule here: stacking.
Stacking

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). It's the same source: Cunning Strike. Spend all the inspiration points you want, but they never give you more than 1d6 sneak attack.

Myou
2010-02-19, 04:29 PM
It's untyped damage without any restriction on how many times you can use it. All the other Factotum abilities are quite pointed; Cunning Insight is a non-stacking insight bonus. Cunning Knowledge is once per day per skill. Cunning Defense specifies that it works once per opponent. Cunning Strike? No such constraints. And, it makes sense in making the ability not suck. 1d6 sneak attack is pretty much irrelevant at all levels, after all.

Spend a point, get 1d6 sneak attack. Spend a point and spend a point, get 1d6 and 1d6. Spend a point sixty times, get 1d6 sixty times, and it all stacks. There's no associated action type or limit on use, so the question becomes, why couldn't you? After all, if you just blew ten feats and twenty levels on getting 65 inspiration, you deserve that 65d6 sneak attack damage, particularly considering it'd leave you useless for the rest of the fight and it's wasted if it misses.

It's not untyped, it's sneak attack damage, not that that's relevant. Abilities like this only stack if stated to do so. If it could be expanded on it would ay that for each extra inpiration point spent beyond the first, you gain an additional 1d6 sneak attack damage.

Anyway, you could read it either way. I'd let it stack in a game, but by RAW I don't think it does.

Wreckingrocc
2010-02-19, 04:32 PM
You're forgetting the most basic rule here: stacking. It's the same source: Cunning Strike. Spend all the inspiration points you want, but they never give you more than 1d6 sneak attack.But it's not a modifier to a roll; it's an untyped damage source.

If you do manage to get +20d6 Base SA damage from classes alone, you'd have, in all probability, 0 Base Attack Bonus (Perhaps +1 if you take SA fighter).

Draz74
2010-02-19, 04:35 PM
I'd let it stack in a game, but by RAW I don't think it does.

QFT. By RAW it probably doesn't stack. By RAI I'm pretty sure it does, and I think it's a silly houserule not to implement.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-02-19, 04:43 PM
IIRC PlzbrkmyCampg (sorry If I misspell) did a 20 lvl build that top'd thatAww I'm remembered (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7813542#post7813542) :smallsmile:

Eldariel
2010-02-19, 04:49 PM
Aww I'm remembered (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7813542#post7813542) :smallsmile:

Regarding the max SA build, it's worth noting that Consumptive Field doesn't stack with itself and thus effectively caps out at twice your standard CL after repeated castings, which in turn makes it relevant for scientific curiosity to see how far Hunter's Eye-abuse gets one.

Flickerdart
2010-02-19, 04:53 PM
But it's not a modifier to a roll; it's an untyped damage source.

If you do manage to get +20d6 Base SA damage from classes alone, you'd have, in all probability, 0 Base Attack Bonus (Perhaps +1 if you take SA fighter).
Either insist on fractional BAB or dip Pyro for infinite touch attacks.

DementedFellow
2010-02-19, 04:57 PM
Is there a 20-level build that gets SA+20d6? Just a random thought. There's Rogue1/Wilderness Rogue1
Why not just go Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1?

Multiclassing XP will kill ya with this build though.

Flickerdart
2010-02-19, 04:59 PM
Why not just go Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1/Rogue1?

Multiclassing XP will kill ya with this build though.
a) You don't get the XP penalty unless your multiclasses are levels apart from one another
a1) If your favoured class was Rogue, you wouldn't have to worry about it
b) You can't multiclass into a class you already have.

DementedFellow
2010-02-19, 05:01 PM
a) You don't get the XP penalty unless your multiclasses are levels apart from one another
a1) If your favoured class was Rogue, you wouldn't have to worry about it
b) You can't multiclass into a class you already have.

I was joking. It wasn't a terribly funny joke, but an attempt at humor nonetheleess.

JaronK
2010-02-19, 05:03 PM
Yeah, due to the fact that Consumptive Field can't actually get that high, the best sneak attack you can get in 20 levels is probably Human Rogue 16/Factotum 4 with two flaws, spending all your feats (including the Rogue bonus ones) on Fonts of Inspiration. Then use inspiration points to get triple digit sneak attack once per encounter.

You can UMD Hunter's Eye for a little more.

JaronK

Eldariel
2010-02-19, 05:17 PM
Yeah, due to the fact that Consumptive Field can't actually get that high, the best sneak attack you can get in 20 levels is probably Human Rogue 16/Factotum 4 with two flaws, spending all your feats (including the Rogue bonus ones) on Fonts of Inspiration. Then use inspiration points to get triple digit sneak attack once per encounter.

You can UMD Hunter's Eye for a little more.

JaronK

Hm, well, it still doubles your CL. I think you could get at least CL 90 with some work, without looping anything. That's already +30d6 to your SA. After that, your levels can still grant you ~+10d6, and various other sources are ~20-30. You should be able to get +60d6-+70d6, which is respectable, at least.

Curmudgeon
2010-02-19, 05:51 PM
But it's not a modifier to a roll; it's an untyped damage source.
It's a modifier to your damage roll.
Damage Rolls

If the attack roll result equals or exceeds the targetís AC, the attack hits and you deal damage. Roll the appropriate damage for your weapon. Damage is deducted from the targetís current hit points.

JaronK
2010-02-19, 06:00 PM
Hm, well, it still doubles your CL. I think you could get at least CL 90 with some work, without looping anything. That's already +30d6 to your SA. After that, your levels can still grant you ~+10d6, and various other sources are ~20-30. You should be able to get +60d6-+70d6, which is respectable, at least.

Yeah, but that's not going to beat the Factotum, who easily hits triple digits without all those rats dying.

JaronK

Eldariel
2010-02-19, 06:19 PM
Yeah, but that's not going to beat the Factotum, who easily hits triple digits without all those rats dying.

JaronK

True enough. If we compare the composite SA output rather than the nova capability though, I do think casting edges out.

JaronK
2010-02-19, 06:44 PM
True enough. If we compare the composite SA output rather than the nova capability though, I do think casting edges out.

Then again, considering the difficulty in using Consumptive Field to double spellcaster level, that could almost be considered Novaing, except it's a one day out of many thing as opposed to a one round out of many thing.

JaronK

Viletta Vadim
2010-02-19, 07:18 PM
Consumptive Field is persistable, as I recall. DMM and go.

Eldariel
2010-02-19, 07:27 PM
The issue is that you need a dozen Consumptive Fields to max out at 2xCL.

JaronK
2010-02-19, 07:41 PM
Indeed, which requires a LOT of rats.

JaronK

Soranar
2010-02-19, 07:43 PM
This would use fractional BAB (otherwise it becomes complicated to qualify for prestige classes and such but still possible)

Let's see

Race: Strongheart Halfling
Alignment : Lawful evil (requirement for half the prestige classes)

Feats :

weapon focus : dagger for Invisible blade
track and skill focus (gather info) for Justicar
Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple for Oppressor
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Blowgun) for Poisoner
Deceitful and Skill Focus (Disguise) Replacement Killer and Zhentarim spy
Persuasive. Shadow thief of Amn
Improved Initiative for Nightsong Enforcer

Flaws (cause you need so many feats): Feeble, Frail, Inattentive, Noncombatant,

Other feats: martial study, martial stance (for another 2d6 from assassin's stance)

1 Rogue Skill focus (Gather info), improved unarmed strike, Improved Grapple, Deceitful, Persuasive, skill focus (diguise)
2 Spellthief
3 Ninja weapon focus: dagger
4 EDIT: Scout
5 Rogue
6 Assassin martial study
7 Avenger
8 Invisible Blade
9 Rogue Track
10 Rogue
11 Rogue
12 Justicar Martial stance (assassin's stance)
13 Replacement Killer
14 Shadow Thief of Amn
15 Zhentarim spy exotic weapon proficiency: blowgun
16 Mole
17 Oppressor
18 Poisoner Improved initiative
19 Nightsong enforcer
20 Fighter (sneak attack variant, no bonus feat)

14d6 + 1d6 from EDIT: scout's skirmish, + 2d6 sudden strike, +2d6 assassin's stance, +1d6 on subdual damage only (justicar)

JaronK
2010-02-19, 07:51 PM
You can't use Factotum Inspiration for sneak attack without 4 levels of Factotum. Looks like you only have one there.

JaronK

Soranar
2010-02-19, 07:55 PM
You can't use Factotum Inspiration for sneak attack without 4 levels of Factotum. Looks like you only have one there.

JaronK

Right, I forgot there was a level requirement

Roderick_BR
2010-02-19, 08:38 PM
My level 1 zombie commoner will beat you



(ok, maybe not)
And my level 1 zombie cat will beat your level 1 zombie commoner.
Maybe

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-19, 09:24 PM
Indeed, which requires a LOT of rats.

JaronK...or chickens.

Makes that level dip in commoner worth it, no?

SurlySeraph
2010-02-19, 09:24 PM
Sneak attack abuse, you say? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140679)