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View Full Version : [3.5 Character Building] Help me build Spider-Monk!



balistafreak
2010-02-20, 12:30 AM
Spider monk
Spider monk
Help me fix
This piece of junk

It started innocently enough - a Fighter who took his first two levels in Monk for Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes, simply because of the fact that he could take more bonus feats this way. Meant to be a grappler with spiked armor, his goal was to quickly tumble through enemy forces and lock down spellcasters in low/mid-level campaigns.

Then things got out of hand. A spiked chain with the full Combat Expertise tree was added. Skills were made to be athletic and acrobatic in nature, running the full Balance/Jump/Tumble gamut.

Yet when looking at eight boring levels of fighter up to Level10, we still decided we could do more.

A week later, we ended up with what may or may not be the silliest "mundane" build I have ever seen.

Monk2/Fighter2/Scout3/Ranger1/Streetfighter2

The first 10 levels of the build are in this order. For obvious reasons, our race is Human, to avoid multiclass explosions. The only class that can progress past Level2 is Scout - indeed, Scout needs to make it to Scout11 somewhere in the build.

How does this resemble Spider-Man at all?

It has to do with judicious selection of Variant Classes. The Scout levels (from Complete Adventurer) use the Dungeon Specialist variant, while the single Ranger level is the infamous "Ranger Splash of Awesome" level, which applies both the Urban Ranger and "Other Ranger Build" variants from the D20 SRD. This level of Ranger1 singlehandedly provides Fast Movement (10ft.), Favored Enemy, Urban Tracking, and, for the lulz, half (aka zero) a level of Wild Empathy, just in case you felt like trying your luck at calming a guard dog.

The Dungeon variant of Scout is the backbone of Spider Monk. It provides, at Scout3, a Climb speed of half our base land speed. This means that we have a +8 racial bonus to Climb checks, can always take 10 (even under stress, aka combat), and maintain our Dexterity bonus to armor and wield a single light weapon while climbing. It is the level that "goes the distance" to fill the remaining levels to Level20, although right now our focus is on the minimum amount of levels that is necessary.

Most importantly to the concept of Spider Monk, this character never has an "off" day. All of his abilities are inherent, not spell-powered. Some character might use Web spells or other such chicanery, but this method never runs out of juice. Even if you dumped him in the street naked, he could still climb away. Hell, because of the levels of Monk, he could still fight.

Minimum stats
Intelligence 13. No, really, that's all that's needed.

Now, that being said, a high Strength to trip and grapple is preferable.

High Dexterity helps with survival, although we're unclear if concentrating into Strength is better than taking Weapon Finesse because the extra AC really, really helps.

Constitution is a very nebulous stat: obviously, there's no reason to not want it high, but it really isn't neccessary either.
Intelligence really only needs to be 13, although extra skill points don't hurt - and due to the acrobatic skills you're taking, you'll be starved for skill points for social skills, especially Bluff for feinting.

Wisdom and Charisma are "dumps", although a higher Wisdom will help out in the first two levels when you're still a pure Monk and haven't gotten a Spiked Chainshirt yet. Charisma, finally, is a genuine dumpstat with no real applications, yet due to the ranks you'll want to put into Bluff, it feels bad to keep it at a measly 8.

If anything, Spider-Monk is a stat-hungry character. Unlike a Wizard who can take minimum Strength and Charisma and simply not care, Spider-Monk can still find a use for those points.

BAB

Monk1: +0
Monk2: +1
Fighter1: +2
Fighter2: +3
Scout1: +3
Scout2: +4
Scout3: +5
Ranger1: +6/+1
Streetfighter1: +7/+2 (This is where the build deviates from its imitation of a half BAB progression, getting an additional +1 here at Level9.)
Streetfighter2: +8/+3

So by Level10 we've got a BAB slightly better than than the half progression, although we get the second attack at exactly the same level, Level8.

Saves (Fortitude/Reflex/Will)

Monk1: +2/+2/+2
Monk2: +3/+3/+3
Fighter1: +5/+3/+3
Fighter2: +6/+3/+3
Scout1: +7/+5/+3
Scout2: +7/+6/+3
Scout3: +8/+6/+4
Ranger1: +10/+8/+4
Streetfighter1: +12/+8/+4
Streetfighter2: +13/+8/+4

Due to insane multiclassing, even our worst save, Will, is better than the normal "Poor" progression, which would be +3 at Level10. Our Reflex save is on the other hand slightly better than the "Good" progression, which would be +7 at Level10. Finally, our Fortitude save is balls-to-the-wall hilarious. To put it in perspective, we beat the save of the "Good" progression at Level20, +12. To put it in "Stand Tough" terms (a feat described below), we now can shrug off any hit for 13 damage for sure, not including any Constitution bonus you might have gotten (although it all gets taken off in a single hit), and we can try getting more at the cost of 5% failure chance per extra point. Critical Spider Monk. I dare you. It's a pity we can't get to the second usage of Stand Tough at Streetfighter4 without inflicting multiclass penalities, but such are the challenges we face in life.

Feats and Abilities

Monk1: Improved Grapple, Flurry of Blows, Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Monk2: Combat Reflexes, Evasion
Fighter1: Exotic Weapon Proficency (spiked chain), Improved Feint/Disarm
Fighter2: Improved Feint/Disarm
Scout1: Skirmish (1d6), Trapfinding (for whatever that's worth)
Scout2: Battle Fortitude +1 (+1 to Fortitude saves and initiative), Uncanny Dodge, Weapon Finesse
Scout3: Climb speed (half move), +8 to Climb
Ranger1: Urban Tracking, Favored Enemy, Fast Movement (10 ft.), Wild Empathy
Streetfighter1: Always ready (+1 to initiative), Streetwise (+2 to Gather Information and Knowledge (local)), SOME FEAT WE NEED HELP WITH
Streetfighter2: Stand Tough 1/day (Take a Fortitude save with DC equal to nonspell/special ability damage taken to convert all damage from that hit to half as much nonlethal damage)

This multiclassing results in some cherrypicking of all sorts of great abilities to have. That being said, the 9th level feat is where we quite honestly run out of ideas. Staying with the SRD feats (doing our best to keep it accessible and simple) we've already gotten the entire Combat Expertise tree. Taking a skill-feat seems extremely lame in general. So what is there?

Iron Will (+2 to Will saves) to bring the Will save up to the "Good" progression is always useful.
Weapon Focus seems bad, because we'll be switching from our Spiked Chain for ranged disarms and trips to our fists for grappling.
Leadership might grant a Cohort. Go useless Mary Jane go.
Run for the sheer lulz of moving five times our land speed (as opposed to four as normal) in a single round (that's 200 feet!) while STILL keeping a Dexterity bonus? (On a side note, can you mix running and tumbling in the same round, just because you can?)

And just for perspective...

Hit Dice

Monk1: d8
Monk2: d8
Fighter1: d10
Fighter2: d10
Scout1: d8
Scout2: d8
Scout3: d8
Ranger1: d8
Streetfighter1: d8
Streetfighter2: d8

So basically we're a little tougher than a straight d8 class. Not by much, but just a little.

Skills

Climb and Tumble should be maxed, Bluff as well. You'll need some ranks in Intimidate and Knowledge (local) to qualify for Streetfighter, and since you have Urban Tracking Gather Information isn't a bad idea. Round out with some social skills or awareness skills as you see fit.

Equipment

You'll need a spiked chainshirt and a spiked chain. Other than that, there's no special items that the build revolves around - an unexpected strength.

Right now, I'm out of ideas. Comment and criticize at your leisure.

Flickerdart
2010-02-20, 12:39 AM
So, it's a chain tripper that gains a bad Spider Climb in exchange for BAB and HP? Why? I mean, it's neat and all, but what does being able to climb up stuff add to the repertoire of a chain tripper, other than running away when your low BAB, AC and HP spells your demise?

balistafreak
2010-02-20, 09:38 AM
So, it's a chain tripper that gains a bad Spider Climb in exchange for BAB and HP? Why? I mean, it's neat and all, but what does being able to climb up stuff add to the repertoire of a chain tripper, other than running away when your low BAB, AC and HP spells your demise?

You're approaching it the wrong way. You're not a chain tripper who gains mobility in exchange for toughness, you're a highly mobile disrupter that happens to use a spiked chain when he's not busy grappling. Remember, that was the original focus of the build, not the spiked chain.

(As an aside, even though I've always sighed with disgust at it, the truth is the spiked chain is the only reach weapon with both the option to trip and disarm, with the bonus of possibly adding Weapon Finesse. It's just so damn good.)

In truth, we've found that the Chain Tripper build has always had the problem of not adding offensive power to the party. Sure, your AoO range and reach let you massacre anything within ten feet of you, allowing you to defend like a brick wall, but as awesome as it might be, your whirling zone of doom is most useful when stationary.

It's a great Defender, but that's hardly what we're attempting to accomplish here. Try to fill a Striker role, though, and the straight Fighter Chain Tripper build is lacking.

Spider Monk doesn't need full BAB because of the targets he'll be selecting - archers, mages, anything that isn't already charging straight for the fighter's wall, similiar to the rogue's role. Because you'll always be moving into these targets, it's not as if extra attacks from BAB would help, and these targets are generally hittable with half BAB anyways. The harder part is getting into range.

While on an open battlefield we'll be facepalming with disgust, any sort of cave or urban environment makes Spider Climb priceless. Sure, you can Fly and Jump all you want, but we'll take the 100% guaranteed method to get there.

The isolation from the party that this usually means though means that the stereotypical class for such a job (rogue) loses its most powerful feature, Sneak Attack. So we said "screw that", and piled on as many creative classes that we could think of to make a Striker. Skirmish damage is there for the lulz, but your true calling is Grappling a target and locking it down. (If it has a higher BAB than you, obviously this isn't an option, but then again if it has a higher BAB than you the Striker is NOT supposed to be there.)

And truthfully, our AC and HP aren't going to be "worse than a fighter's", but "better than a Rogue's".

Our personal favorite trick is "grapple and fall" - upon grappling a spellcaster, drag both of you off the edge of a cliff/building. You can take 10 due to spider climb and generally will always be able to "grab on" to the wall right near the bottom (last fifty feet or so) of your fall. Poor spellcaster hits the ground instead. If he packed Feather Fall, you'd still be grappling with him in midair (heh), and most importantly you've still almost certainly removed him from affecting the combat up above, and you're still in melee range of him. More amusingly, you can climb back up when you're done.

Don't approach this as a Defender. That was our initial direction, but it immediately became clear that Grappling was NOT an action a Defender ever, ever wanted to take. See how the build looks now, and most importantly, help. We did say this was still under construction.

ericgrau
2010-02-20, 09:48 AM
Why take a class level for something that may be handled with slippers of spider climbing? I mean, it's less gear dependent, but that's an awfully big price.

Human Paragon 3
2010-02-20, 11:59 AM
Ape totem barbarian gets a climb speed too, and better HD and better BAB. You're already taking barbarian, so why not trade it for scout?

As for a 9th level feat, how about cloak dance? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#cloakDance)

Another trick to add to your arsenal that you can use all day even naked in the street.

Reckless Offense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#recklessOffense) is another good one for when you actually need to attack and hit somebody with your poor BAB.

balistafreak
2010-02-20, 12:37 PM
Ape totem barbarian gets a climb speed too, and better HD and better BAB. You're already taking barbarian, so why not trade it for scout?

Well, actually, there was a mistake - I copy/pasted from an older version that still listed me as having levels in Barbarian. Whoops. But... my goodness, that is NIIIIIIIIICE. Can't believe I missed that.

But do I fill out my levels with Barbarian, to get Power Attack as a bonus feat? Or just Barbarian1 for the Climb speed, and choose some other class to fill out the rest of my levels? (Stopping at Barbarian2 is rather unimpressive - I don't exactly care about +2 to Intimidate checks, thank you very much.)

Right now, I need to find a class with (preferably) full BAB and Striker-esque abilities. AKA not a fighter, unfortunately. Scout was good in that you got extra damage and AC from Skirmish, as well as Uncanny Dodge. There's got to be a class that does something similar, eventually...

Hey, I could fill out Streetfighter to Streetfighter5, that'd give me Uncanny Dodge!

Wait, do prestige classes and base classes cause Multiclass penalties with each other? I forget.


As for a 9th level feat, how about cloak dance? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#cloakDance)

Another trick to add to your arsenal that you can use all day even naked in the street.

I'm not sure hiding is particularly useful for this character, but it might be worth looking into.


Reckless Offense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#recklessOffense) is another good one for when you actually need to attack and hit somebody with your poor BAB.

If I drop Scout, all my levels except Monk have full BAB progression, so there's a mere -1 to BAB there. That's a perfectly acceptable loss, I feel, for those Monk abilities and the extra Will save, so I don't think there's much reason to take Reckless Offense.

Jallorn
2010-02-20, 12:41 PM
I'm confused, did you take barbarian, or ranger? If barbarian, it has d12, not d10.

Also, the Vigilante PRC might be good flavor-wise, although the spells seem out of build design.

balistafreak
2010-02-20, 12:51 PM
I'm confused, did you take barbarian, or ranger? If barbarian, it has d12, not d10.

Also, the Vigilante PRC might be good flavor-wise, although the spells seem out of build design.

Heh, just covered that - there was an error.

Just checked out the Vigilante PRC. Yeah, those spells ruin the flavor and style of the build. For the same reason that we completely ignore Slippers of Spider Climbing, any sort of temporary gain through spells or items that is integral to the design is right out.

Oslecamo
2010-02-20, 01:13 PM
I sugest the less well known Prc Fang of Lolth, from Song and Silence.

Basicaly, this class slowly turns you into a spider like monstruosity over 10 levels. Requirements aren't very heavy, just a very good UMD.

Main goodies are:
-Some natural armor.
-Climb speed.
-4 permanent extra arms wich can wield weapons and a bite attack, togheter with 3d6 sneack attack.
-Vermin traits to keep away those pesky mind control effects.
-Good skills and skill bonus on top.

Thus, if you want to do a spider monk, I would say this is ideal.

balistafreak
2010-02-20, 01:23 PM
I sugest the less well known Prc Fang of Lolth, from Song and Silence.

Basicaly, this class slowly turns you into a spider like monstruosity over 10 levels. Requirements aren't very heavy, just a very good UMD.

Main goodies are:
-Some natural armor.
-Climb speed.
-4 permanent extra arms wich can wield weapons and a bite attack, togheter with 3d6 sneack attack.
-Vermin traits to keep away those pesky mind control effects.
-Good skills and skill bonus on top.

Thus, if you want to do a spider monk, I would say this is ideal.

BWHAHAHAHAHAHA that's a good one!

... you... you're actually serious, aren't you?

I don't have Song and Silence, but rest assured I'll take a look at this. That's got to be the funniest Prestige class I've seen in a long time - and awesome to boot. However, the name "Lolth" doesn't give me good feelings - this sounds a little too exotic.

But seriously, four extra arms? Seriously? Seriously.

hamishspence
2010-02-20, 01:24 PM
Not so much Spider-Man, as Man-Spider :smallamused:

Xenogears
2010-02-20, 01:27 PM
Not so much Spider-Man, as Man-Spider :smallamused:

There was a period where he started turning into a more spider-like form. He had like 4 legs (two still had human feet but two had spider like fet) and IIRC he started geting two extra arms as wel. I've got the action figure but the top half was lost years ago so I can't check wether he had extra arms or not...

Starbuck_II
2010-02-20, 01:29 PM
BWHAHAHAHAHAHA that's a good one!

... you... you're actually serious, aren't you?

I don't have Song and Silence, but rest assured I'll take a look at this. That's got to be the funniest Prestige class I've seen in a long time - and awesome to boot. However, the name "Lolth" doesn't give me good feelings - this sounds a little too exotic.

But seriously, four extra arms? Seriously? Seriously.

You have to have Use Magic Device and a drow's spider amulet (cost 3000). The amulet is cursed/stuck to you and now you can unlock its power to enter Prc. Seriously, you didn't serve her. You stick your middle finger at her to enter class.

The amulets purpose is to make spiders attack better (+1 to hit). So Bards/rogues a go why not UMD it.

Skaven
2010-02-20, 01:34 PM
Are you allowed to use bring custom classes?

Could look into the Martial Artist, which gives up fancy stuff like spell resistance, immunities and some enhanced strike damage for bonuses to balance and tumble etc and spider sense.. err, trap sense.

http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/martialartist.htm

My favourite custom martial class i've found online. While not exactly in the tier of any full spellcaster, its definitely a tier or two above the monk.


BWHAHAHAHAHAHA that's a good one!

... you... you're actually serious, aren't you?

I don't have Song and Silence, but rest assured I'll take a look at this. That's got to be the funniest Prestige class I've seen in a long time - and awesome to boot. However, the name "Lolth" doesn't give me good feelings - this sounds a little too exotic.

But seriously, four extra arms? Seriously? Seriously.

Yeah, its a pretty decent PrC as far as some multi attack builds go. I wanted to give one a whirl a few years ago but never could find a DM to run the character with. You essentially end up like peter parker man-spider, but qualify for some multi attack fun.

Oslecamo
2010-02-20, 01:35 PM
... you... you're actually serious, aren't you?

I am.



I don't have Song and Silence, but rest assured I'll take a look at this. That's got to be the funniest Prestige class I've seen in a long time - and awesome to boot. However, the name "Lolth" doesn't give me good feelings - this sounds a little too exotic.

Like Starbuck_II pointed out, the class is more about stealing Lolth's power trough a special item than to bow to the spider queen.



But seriously, four extra arms? Seriously? Seriously.

Seriously. But the class also insisists that most people won't be very confortable talking to you once you've got 4 extra arms, chitin and mandibles. Meh, just pump out your disguise skill as well.

Flickerdart
2010-02-20, 02:09 PM
Seriously. But the class also insisists that most people won't be very confortable talking to you once you've got 4 extra arms, chitin and mandibles. Meh, just pump out your disguise skill as well.
You have 4 extra arms, just hold them down if you want to talk.

ericgrau
2010-02-20, 02:14 PM
They're arms not warts. People notice even under clothing.

Human Paragon 3
2010-02-20, 02:22 PM
I would suggest filling out with Barbarian.

In addition, I would look at the cityscape alternate class feature "ferocity" found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a).

Indeed, there are a number of enhancements for a street fighting barbarian on that page. It makes barb. very attractive, and it fits a lot better with your character concept.

I would just go Monk/Barbarian/Street Fighter. Those extra feats aren't doing much for you. Disarm and Feint are very weak feats. Get power attack in there. A ferocity using, power attacking barbarian is a much better striker than a scout, and you'll be stronger for your grapples. And nothing is immune to power attack damage.

EDIT: Disarm has its uses, but feint is pretty worthless. If you keep the fighter levels, grab power attack. You won't be disappointed.

And no, PrCs don't contribute to multiclassing penalties.

Pechvarry
2010-02-20, 03:11 PM
You seem to be avoiding spellcasting, but I feel compelled to mention Warlock 1 or Warlock 2.

Warlock 1: Spiderwalk (24 hour duration spiderclimb. Get dispelled? cast it again at will)
Warlock 2: Leaps and Bounds (24 hour duration +6 to spider-man-y skills. Get dispelled? see above)

Glimbur
2010-02-20, 03:19 PM
Wait, do prestige classes and base classes cause Multiclass penalties with each other? I forget.

PrC's don't count for multiclassing penalties.

balistafreak
2010-02-20, 05:00 PM
Those Urban Barbarian variants are really something. In fact, I really want to take the Roof-Dweller variant (get the Roof-Walker feat to replace Fast Movement, and qualify for Roof-Jumper at 6th level without additional requirements) but then I can't get my Climb Speed from the Ape-Totem. Unless I want another dip into Scout3... which we've already discussed the problems of. :/

Eh, those are two feats that don't come from the SRD anyways. Simpler is better. (Yes, I'm aware of the hypocrisy there when I'm pulling every character variant available to build this guy, but that's the build. When actually playing Spider Monk, I don't want to have to dive into a different book for every feat I take. :p)

The levels in Barbarian are applying the Ape Totem and Ferocity variants.

Here's the progression as I've sounded it out now. Changes are bolded.

Monk1: Improved Grapple, Flurry of Blows, Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Monk2: Combat Reflexes, Evasion
Fighter1: Exotic Weapon Proficency (spiked chain), Iron Will
Ranger1: Urban Tracking, Favored Enemy, Fast Movement (10 ft.), Wild Empathy
Barbarian1: Climb speed (half), Ferocity 1/day
Barbarian2: +2 to Intimidate, Leadership
Barbarian3: Power Attack
Fill out Streetfighter5.
Fill out rest of levels with BarbarianMax.

So all in all, a Monk2/Fighter1/Ranger1/Streetfighter5/Barbarian11. I'll work out the BAB and saves later and post them up.

Any suggestions of further dipclasses to take?