Magic Reaver [3.5; PrC]

[BenTheJester]

The Magic Reaver


Fluff will come later, along with crappy names changes

Entry Requirements
Base Attack Bonus: +7
Skills: Knowledge(Arcana) 5 Ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks
Feats: Dodge, Mage Slayer

The Magic Reaver
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+0|+2|+2|Dispelling Strike
2nd|+2|+0|+3|+3|Mettle
3rd|+3|+1|+3|+3|Pierce Magical Protection
4th|+4|+1|+4|+4|Catch Up
5th|+5|+1|+4|+4|Greater Dispelling Strike
6th|+6|+2|+5|+5|Slowcast Strike
7th|+7|+2|+5|+5|Follow Up, Improved Mettle
8th|+8|+2|+6|+6|Armored Resistance
9th|+9|+3|+6|+6|Spell Reflection
10th|+10|+3|+7|+7|Antimagic Shield, Resist the Unresistable[/table]

Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Gather Information, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, Tumble.

Skill Points per Level: 2 + Int modifier


Class Features:
Dispelling Strike (Ex): Whenever you make a melee attack, as a free action, you can add a dispelling effect to your attack. If your attack hits, you can replicate the effects of either a Targeted Dispel or Area Dispel(see Dispel Magic, PHB p.223), using twice your class levels as the caster level.

At fifth level, the effect functions like a Greater Dispel Magic and uses the highest of either twice your class levels or the target's caster level.

This ability can be used three times per day, and no use is wasted if your attack doesn't hit.

Mettle (Ex): See Hexblade special ability, Complete Warrior p.7

Pierce Magical Protection (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain Pierce Magical Protection(Complete Arcane) as a bonus feat, even if you do not meet the requirements. If you already have this feat, you gain any other feat for which you meet the prerequisites.

Catch Up (Sp): At 4th level, you can reach your foes faster. You can use Dimension Door as a spell-like ability three times per day. Your caster level is equal to your class levels.

Slowcast Strike (Ex): Starting at 6th level, you can add this effect to a single melee attack as a swift action. If your attack hits a character with a spellcasting ability, the target must now cast his spells of the 3 highest levels he can cast as a full-round action. This only affects spells and spell-like abilities with a Standard or Swift action casting times.
This effect lasts for 1 hour and can only be dispelled by a Break Enchantment, Heal, Miracle or Wish spell.
You can use this ability once per day, and no use is wasted if your attack doesn't hit.

Improved Mettle (Ex): This ability works like Mettle, except that even if the save is not successful you only suffer partially the consequences of the spell.

Follow Up (Ex): At 7th level, if an enemy you threaten makes a 5ft step, you can also make one, by giving up one attack of opportunity for the round.

Armored Resistance (Ex): At 8th level a Magic Reaver adds half his Armor Class to his Spell Resistance. This includes any kind of bonus to Armor Class, even temporary ones.

Spell Reflection (Ex): Being tinkered

Antimagic Shield (Su): Once you reach 10th level, once per day, as an immediate action, you can have an antimagic shield affect a target(which can be yourself) within 30ft of you for 10 minutes. A successful Will save(DC = 10 + ½ your class levels + your wisdom modifier) reduces the duration to 1 minute.
When affected by an Antimagic Shield, any spell you cast has a 60% chance of failing and any magic item in your possession has 75% chance of working properly. Otherwise this ability functions just like Antimagic Field, with its radius is limited only to your target and anyone sharing its space.

Resist the Unresistable (Ex): At tenth level, any spell cast on you who usually doesn't require a Spell Resistance check now does. However, you take a penalty on the check to resist such a spell equal to twice the spell's level.





I'm really afraid this class is overpowered. However, it is kind of a one-trick pony.

I'm horrible at balancing things, hence my presence here. Please tell me if this class is a complete mess or not.

AC to SR is an ability I REALLY want to keep.

[BenTheJester]

Nothing?

aka bump

[JoshuaZ]

Well, I don't think your worry about overpowered is justified. It seems like it has some useful abilities and looks better than the official anti-mage stuff out there. Not sure what else to say. There aren't any obvious issues which leap out.

[Mulletmanalive]

Your caster level is always going to suck with this class even if you came from a casting class before hand [Mage Slayer and its tree give -4 penalties each].

I'd suggest changing the dispel magic at 5th to add the penalties as a bonus, or at least half the penalties. Worth noting that the Dispelling Strike class feature is a shot in the dark at best because you've based it on class level and spellcasters are going to be a minimum of 6 levels higher than you.

As it is, i'd say that that class feature would be worth having if EVERY strike had a dispel chance at that power level. Note that the Theul Archanamach has a +6 bonus on its version of this.

Most of the rest of it should buy you a few rounds to get close and take a strike with that defence shredder ability you get at third [love those feats], though i'm a bit leery about Improved Mettle. Then again, it rarely makes much difference with those saves anyway...

[GoC]

Vigilance (Ex): At 9th level, it becomes impossible to take a 5ft step from any area you threaten.
Shouldn't this be "it becomes impossible to take a 5ft step from any area you threaten without provoking an attack of opportunity."?
Unless you think it makes perfect sense that the colossal Red Dragon standing next to you now can't 5ft step...


Antimagic Shield (Su): Once you reach 10th level, once per day as an immediate action, you can have an antimagic shield affect a target(which can be yourself) withing 30ft of you for 10 minutes per class level. This ability functions just like Antimagic Field, except its radius is limited only to your target and anyone sharing its space.
I don't like this. It's basically a perfect "screw you" to casters. It badly needs a save of some sort.


Resist the Unresistable (Ex): At tenth level, any spell cast on you who usually doesn't require a Spell Resistance check now does. However, you take a -4 penalty on the check to resist such a spell.
I'm not sure this one makes sense... a mage telekinetically hurls an non-magical arrow at you and you... negate it?:smallconfused:

[Foryn Gilnith]

I don't like this. It's basically a perfect "screw you" to casters. It badly needs a save of some sort.
Yeah. The word "shield" implies a defensive use, but as-is, if a mage gets within 30 feet, they're automatically shut down.


I'm not sure this one makes sense... a mage telekinetically hurls an non-magical arrow at you and you... negate it?:smallconfused:
EDIT: Disregard this. The original text is quoted below; it doesn't make any sense.

[GoC]

Telekinesis is already a SR: Yes spell...if you're targeting objects. And in this scenario, you're targeting an object.
I'd be targeting an arrow. The arrow doesn't get SR.

[BenTheJester]

Shouldn't this be "it becomes impossible to take a 5ft step from any area you threaten without provoking an attack of opportunity."?
Unless you think it makes perfect sense that the colossal Red Dragon standing next to you now can't 5ft step...

Yes, thanks, I corrected it.


I don't like this. It's basically a perfect "screw you" to casters. It badly needs a save of some sort.

Reduced the duration to 10 minutes, with a successful save reducing the duration to 1 minute.


I'm not sure this one makes sense... a mage telekinetically hurls an non-magical arrow at you and you... negate it?:smallconfused:

The telekinesis is casted on the arrow, not on you.

I gave him the ability particularly so he doesn't get screwed by the Orbs line of spells.


Your caster level is always going to suck with this class even if you came from a casting class before hand [Mage Slayer and its tree give -4 penalties each].

I'd suggest changing the dispel magic at 5th to add the penalties as a bonus, or at least half the penalties. Worth noting that the Dispelling Strike class feature is a shot in the dark at best because you've based it on class level and spellcasters are going to be a minimum of 6 levels higher than you.

I might have worded it wrong, but at 5th level, you use your target's caster level, not yours.

[Mulletmanalive]

Also, you're forced to waste class levels by the prerequisites. You either end up with Hexblade levels [which are alright i suppose] up to 3rd or end up waiting until 13th level to buy in using cross class skills.

Mage Slayer is a pretty solid prerequisite anyway and you have a BAB one. No need to punish someone unduly for wanting to hunt mages.

Target's Caster Level? So...it's a 50-50...

Not too bad i suppose. I'd still make it more often though. Perhaps as a specific action [Full or Standard] and then make it "at will" at 5th. Or maybe 5/day at 5th and at will at a higher level in place of something else.

I'm always a bit dubious about giving magic hunters too many magical powers.

[GoC]

Reduced the duration to 10 minutes, with a successful save reducing the duration to 1 minute.
There's really no difference. Either way the poor BBEG is dead.:smallfrown:


The telekinesis is casted on the arrow, not on you.

I gave him the ability particularly so he doesn't get screwed by the Orbs line of spells.
Yeah, but...
Aren't the Orb spells exactly the same as my example? They create an orb of acid for instance and then fire it. Once in the air it's non-magical and there's no way it should be resisted.
Can he resist a force-cage? A fog cloud? An earthquake?

[BenTheJester]

There's really no difference. Either way the poor BBEG is dead.:smallfrown:


Yeah, but...
Aren't the Orb spells exactly the same as my example? They create an orb of acid for instance and then fire it. Once in the air it's non-magical and there's no way it should be resisted.
Can he resist a force-cage? A fog cloud? An earthquake?

But the orb is still made of "magic". A fireball is just fire once it is thrown, but yet is resistable.


About the Antimagic, what if it caused a 60% chance of spells failing(and magic items not functioning, I guess) when casted from inside(and still acting like an AMF from the outside)

[Foryn Gilnith]

For non-energy conjurations, there is some clear essence of magic there. A sword is blocked by DR. A psionic crystal shard is blocked by DR. A magical fist of stone is not blocked by DR. There's something there distinguishing it from the mundane sword - something marking it as magical.

Ergo, Orb of Acid/Fire/Etc. may produce quasi-magical energy. Nonmagical enough to ignore SR, but perhaps magical in some minor way.

[Damos Taranth]

Class Features:
Dispelling Strike (Ex): Whenever you make a melee attack, as a free action, you can add a dispelling effect to your attack. If your attack hits, a dispel effect is created(as the spell), using your class levels as the caster level.

At fifth level, the effect functions like a Greater Dispel Magic and uses the highest of your class levels or the target's caster level.

This ability can be used three times per day, and no use is wasted if your attack doesn't hit.


Several things:
1) Love the concept.
2) This dispel attempt is going to be always sub-par. Assuming that the class is entered as early as possible, you're already going to be 7 levels behind in effective caster level, which means against a mage of equivilent level you're going to dispel on an 18 or higher. Using twice your class level may be better, especially as it makes sense to have Greater at fifth level, since after that it becomes too high a level for standard Dispel Magic.
3) Be more specific regarding WHICH dispel magic you're using. Can it be any - targeting a specific spell/item, a character, area effect?
4) Depending on how you fix the dispel level problem, having this be a constant effect may be worthwhile.



Mettle (Ex): See Hexblade special ability, Complete Warrior p.7

Pierce Magical Protection (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain Pierce Magical Protection(Complete Arcane) as a bonus feat, even if you do not meet the requirements. If you already have this feat, you gain any other feat for which you meet the prerequisites.

Catch Up (Sp): At 4th level, you can reach your foes faster. You can use Dimension Door as a spell-like ability three times per day. Your caster level is equal to your class levels.

Mettle and PMP make perfect sense.

Catch Up seems to quite thoroughly go against the class concept. Better to have something that prevents spellcasters from escaping using teleportation, or at absolute worst allows you to 'hitch a ride' along with them so they can never escape. It's very useful for the class's purpose, but you need to keep a constant theme.
Other workable constants include disruption of other movement based spells (fly, OF, ER, etc) perhaps even throwing in a crippling ability - turn their spells against them. A character focusing on stealing magic might steal them for himself, but a "Magic Reaver" has no time for such things.



Slowcast Strike (Ex): Starting at 6th level, you can add this effect to a single melee attack as a swift action. If your attack hits a character with a spellcasting ability, the target must now cast his spells of the 3 highest levels he can cast as a full-round action. This only affects spells and spell-like abilities with a Standard or Swift action casting times.
This effect lasts for 1 hour and can only be dispelled by a Heal, Miracle or Wish spell.
You can use this ability once per day, and no use is wasted if your attack doesn't hit.


This is a really nice concept, not too overpowered but quite shocking for a spellcaster. I like it, although I'd consider 'break enchantment' added to the list of spells which fix it. (Although you'll probably need a heal if you survive this guy anyway...)



Improved Mettle (Ex): This ability works like Mettle, except that even if the save is not successful you only suffer partially the consequences of the spell.

Spell Reflection (Ex): At 7th level and beyond, if a spell cast directly at the Magic Reaver fails(either due to Spell Resistance, or a completely Successful save(So it doesn't work on spell who still partially affects you even on a successful save)), the spell is sent back directly to the caster, as if the Magic Reaver had casted it, but using the caster's Caster Level and ability scores.

...THIS is very powerful, especially combined with Improved Mettle, perhaps overpowered - you might want to limit this to x/day.




Armored Resistance (Ex): At 8th level a Magic Reaver adds his Armor Class to his Spell Resistance. This includes any kind of bonus to Armor Class, even temporary ones.

...Oh my. By 15th level, an AC of 30-40 is very doable even without powergaming up, and an equivilent SR - Or more, you're ADDING it - combined with Spell Reflection takes this into effectively golem-grade magic immunity plus 'have that spell back'. At this point this class has officially become completely overpowered. This needs to change.



Vigilance (Ex): At 9th level, it becomes impossible to take a 5ft step from any area you threaten without provoking an attack of opportunity.


5ft step is a mechanic that is very rarely messed with - while I agree with the concept, I'm wary of poking this.



Follow Up (Ex): Whenever a creature you threaten which stands withing 5ft of you uses a teleportation effect, you can make a grapple check as an immediate action. If the grapple fails, the creature's intended effect is resolved normally. If the grapple succeeds, you can choose to either teleport with it or make the effect fail.

You can use this ability three times per day

And here's the teleport follow ability I mentioned earlier. I'd probably say this belongs considerably earlier in the class tree, waiting until 17th level to be able to prevent teleportation (available since 9th) and even then foiled by the 5ft step ability - this is fairly underpowered, for all it's useful for preventing grapple escapes.




Antimagic Shield (Su): Once you reach 10th level, once per day, as an immediate action, you can have an antimagic shield affect a target(which can be yourself) within 30ft of you for 10 minutes. A successful Will save(DC = 10 + ½ your class levels + your wisdom modifier) reduces the duration to 1 minute. This ability functions just like Antimagic Field, except its radius is limited only to your target and anyone sharing its space.


As previously noted by others, this effectively destroys one mage, no save. This is unpreventable, unstoppable, that mage can do absolutely nothing for the next minute at best. Too powerful. AM shield is range personal for a reason.



Resist the Unresistable (Ex): At tenth level, any spell cast on you who usually doesn't require a Spell Resistance check now does. However, you take a -4 penalty on the check to resist such a spell.


And now you are immune to all non-epic magic ever forever. Even the spell designed to lower your SR cannot overcome your SR. Plus, your armour class is obscene too, if you play this right. You win at everything forever, and the class is definately overpowered. :) Congrats.

---

AC to SR is simply far too powerful. You might be able to curtail it a bit by subtracting the base 10 off, but even then if you build right you end up with a SR that's only supposed to be achievable by high-end outsiders and dragons - with the added bonus of an obscene physical AC to boot! And that's not even taking into account the spell reflection...

You have an effective near-perfect defense, with strong offensive capacity and a powerful movement ability to boot. I won't claim to have an encyclopedic knowledge and I'm no powergamer, so the only reasonable and effective method I can see of taking out this character is a touch attack with a high-end fortitude save or die non-magical effect, like a poison.

Of course, it is a bit one-trick pony specifically against mages, and thus would probably make a better enemy NPC than a PC anyway. I'd probably suggest a lot of restrictive fluff, ranging from refusal to work with spellcasters of any kind to being forced to resist any magic cast on him, to inability to use magical items at all. The latter might come closest to making this class balanced, since it puts an effective cap on your AC and thus your SR.

Anyway, that's my 4AM ramble for you :) Hope this helps, I apologise if I sound damning, but I'm very tired ;) Goodnight!

[Milskidasith]

Dispelling Strike (Ex): Whenever you make a melee attack, as a free action, you can add a dispelling effect to your attack. If your attack hits, a dispel effect is created(as the spell), using your class levels as the caster level.

This will *never* hit. A 7th level PrC (which is weird by itself) means you're casting dispel magic seven levels below the CL of an equal level mage. Your attacks will dispel, with no CL bonuses on the mage (and by level 8, they can afford at least a +1 or +2 to CL), on a 17 or higher; if they have a CL or dispel resist of +3, you need a 20 to hit, if they have +4 or higher, you cannot dispel them at all.


At fifth level, the effect functions like a Greater Dispel Magic and uses the highest of your class levels or the target's caster level.

And this makes it useful, except also stupid. Why are you using the target's caster level? Even worse than being useless, this means if you somehow hit as a level 13 character, you can dispel a level infinite mage on a decent roll.


Mettle (Ex): See Hexblade special ability, Complete Warrior p.7

Fair enough.


Pierce Magical Protection (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain Pierce Magical Protection(Complete Arcane) as a bonus feat, even if you do not meet the requirements. If you already have this feat, you gain any other feat for which you meet the prerequisites.


Fair enough.


Catch Up (Sp): At 4th level, you can reach your foes faster. You can use Dimension Door as a spell-like ability three times per day. Your caster level is equal to your class levels.

Since you can't actually move after D-Dooring, it really doesn't allow you to have any kind of actual catch up ability.


Slowcast Strike (Ex): Starting at 6th level, you can add this effect to a single melee attack as a swift action. If your attack hits a character with a spellcasting ability, the target must now cast his spells of the 3 highest levels he can cast as a full-round action. This only affects spells and spell-like abilities with a Standard or Swift action casting times.
This effect lasts for 1 hour and can only be dispelled by a Heal, Miracle or Wish spell.
You can use this ability once per day, and no use is wasted if your attack doesn't hit.

How does this interact with Arcane Spellsurge?


Improved Mettle (Ex): This ability works like Mettle, except that even if the save is not successful you only suffer partially the consequences of the spell.

OK.


Spell Reflection (Ex): At 7th level and beyond, if a spell cast directly at the Magic Reaver fails(either due to Spell Resistance, or a completely Successful save(So it doesn't work on spell who still partially affects you even on a successful save)), the spell is sent back directly to the caster, as if the Magic Reaver had casted it, but using the caster's Caster Level and ability scores.

You could just say it works like Spell Turning.


Armored Resistance (Ex): At 8th level a Magic Reaver adds his Armor Class to his Spell Resistance. This includes any kind of bonus to Armor Class, even temporary ones.

This makes no sense, but at least SR: no spells don't affect you... yet.


Vigilance (Ex): At 9th level, it becomes impossible to take a 5ft step from any area you threaten without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Aren't there already feats that do this?


Follow Up (Ex): Whenever a creature you threaten which stands withing 5ft of you uses a teleportation effect, you can make a grapple check as an immediate action. If the grapple fails, the creature's intended effect is resolved normally. If the grapple succeeds, you can choose to either teleport with it or make the effect fail.

You can use this ability three times per day

Well since it's a grapple check, FoM is likely to get out of it anyway. Besides that, though, this is nuts.


Antimagic Shield (Su): Once you reach 10th level, once per day, as an immediate action, you can have an antimagic shield affect a target(which can be yourself) within 30ft of you for 10 minutes. A successful Will save(DC = 10 + ½ your class levels + your wisdom modifier) reduces the duration to 1 minute. This ability functions just like Antimagic Field, except its radius is limited only to your target and anyone sharing its space.

So it's a "no save, casters can't cast?" effect? That's completely and utterly broken.


Resist the Unresistable (Ex): At tenth level, any spell cast on you who usually doesn't require a Spell Resistance check now does. However, you take a -4 penalty on the check to resist such a spell.


And this is also completely crazy. Nonmagical arrows or freezing spheres or darts are suddenly blocked by SR? And your SR is equal to your AC, so it's like 40 or so?

So let's take a look:

Level 1: You have no class features.
Level 5: You can suddenly have an even chance (higher if you have a dispelling cord) to dispel any caster, ever, no matter how powerful they are.
Level 8: You have SR of 40+ at level 15 with only light optimization and a few buffs. And you reflect every spell cast at you, and that includes spells that don't include SR.





I'm really afraid this class is overpowered. However, it is kind of a one-trick pony.


Actually, not really. Sure, it doesn't help against other melee much... except for the bonus AoOs and the ability to negate all their magical gear for free. That's pretty nice.


I'm horrible at balancing things, hence my presence here. Please tell me if this class is a complete mess or not.

It is. It's a "no save, you can't cast" version of the antimage concept, with a bonus that everything cast at it fails horribly and is reflected.


AC to SR is an ability I REALLY want to keep.[/spoiler]

Don't.

[BenTheJester]

And this makes it useful, except also stupid. Why are you using the target's caster level? Even worse than being useless, this means if you somehow hit as a level 13 character, you can dispel a level infinite mage on a decent roll.
Are you forgetting the +20 cap? If you face a "level infinity" spellcaster at level 13, it might be time you have a little chat with your DM.



How does this interact with Arcane Spellsurge?

With their new casting times.



By the way thanks SO MUCH for helping me make the class better by providing suggestions, such as remove everything

[GoC]

By the way thanks SO MUCH for helping me make the class better by providing suggestions, such as remove everything
It's a sad fact but sometimes things simply don't work out. The important thing is not to give up or get resentful but to try again when the next idea comes along.:smallsmile:

[BenTheJester]

It's a sad fact but sometimes things simply don't work out. The important thing is not to give up or get resentful but to try again when the next idea comes along.:smallsmile:

No I think everybody but Milskidasith provided helpful suggestions. There are always ways to balance things without removing them entirely.

[GoC]

No I think everybody but Milskidasith provided helpful suggestions. There are always ways to balance things without removing them entirely.
That's not actually true...
For example an ability that reads "Add +100 to your AC." cannot be balanced in any way.
This is because D&D has multiple power axis (so to speak) and having a large amount along one of the mayor axis has a very destabilising effect. It results in TPKs and/or one-shotted BBEGs. Entire types of encounters becomes cake-walks so the DM must work extra hard.

And no matter how he voiced them his criticisms are still valid. You have in fact made a class that basically kills any powerful opponent relying on class levels or magic.

[Lappy9000]

That's not actually true...
For example an ability that reads "Add +100 to your AC." cannot be balanced in any way.
This is because D&D has multiple power axis (so to speak) and having a large amount along one of the mayor axis has a very destabilising effect. It results in TPKs and/or one-shotted BBEGs. Entire types of encounters becomes cake-walks so the DM must work extra hard.

And no matter how he voiced them his criticisms are still valid. You have in fact made a class that basically kills any powerful opponent relying on class levels or magic.But...isn't that a completely opposing analysis of the class' power level?

Regardless, kudos for making a more simplistic version of the "mage-killer" archetype. However, the class could use a bit of clean up.


Fluff will come later, along with crappy names changesFluff please! :smallwink::smalltongue:

Any reason for the +7 Base Attack Bonus requirement, by the way? Seems a touch steep for the classes that will likely be taking this.

Oh! And what kinda Hit Dice are we looking at?


Dispelling Strike (Ex): Whenever you make a melee attack, as a free action, you can add a dispelling effect to your attack. If your attack hits, a dispel effect is created (as the spell), using twice your class levels as the caster level.Just be sure to clarify "as the Dispel Magic spell" just to avoid any potential confusion. Some folks take RAW really seriously.


At fifth level, the effect functions like a Greater Dispel Magic and uses the highest of your class levels or the target's caster level.Whichever is higher?


This ability can be used three times per day, and no use is wasted if your attack doesn't hit.The normal and greater dispelling both get three uses together, or seprately?


Slowcast Strike (Ex): Starting at 6th level, you can add this effect to a single melee attack as a swift action. If your attack hits a character with a spellcasting ability, the target must now cast his spells of the 3 highest levels he can cast as a full-round action. This only affects spells and spell-like abilities with a Standard or Swift action casting times.So you bump Standard action casting up to Full-Round casting? Neat idea, but you might wanna work on the wording. That second sentence is a little confuddling. Would you consider utilizing the ability to bump spells that are currently using a Move action up to a Standard action? Could be a nice advancement of the ability if you're running short of ideas, or you could just drop it in here.


Improved Mettle (Ex): This ability works like Mettle, except that even if the save is not successful you only suffer partially the consequences of the spell.There's some strange grammar goin' up on in there.


Spell Reflection (Ex): At 7th level and beyond, if a spell cast directly at the Magic Reaver fails(either due to Spell Resistance, or a completely Successful save(So it doesn't work on spell who still partially affects you even on a successful save)), the spell is sent back directly to the caster, as if the Magic Reaver had casted it, but using the caster's Caster Level and ability scores.'Little awkward. You might wanna try breaking that up into two sentences so it doesn't read so funky. Mention the clause about Spell Resistance and partial saves as an after note, like they do in Core all the time.


Follow Up (Ex): Whenever a creature you threaten which stands withing 5ft of you uses a teleportation effect, you can make a grapple check as an immediate action. If the grapple fails, the creature's intended effect is resolved normally. If the grapple succeeds, you can choose to either teleport with it or make the effect fail.Also reads funny. I don't wanna misinterpret, so I'll let you do the revising, but I'll gladly work on it for you if you'd prefer.

[GoC]

But...isn't that a completely opposing analysis of the class' power level?
You know how the Truenamer and Samurai are broken? They either end encounters single handedly or are useless.

[Lappy9000]

You know how the Truenamer and Samurai are broken? They either end encounters single handedly or are useless.Perhaps, but 'great at mage-slaying' and 'terrible at mage-slaying' seem more like discrepancies between opinion. If the arguments were, say, 'great against magic' versus 'bad against melee,' for example, I think you'd be completely right here.

[GoC]

Perhaps, but 'great at mage-slaying' and 'terrible at mage-slaying' seem more like discrepancies between opinion. If the arguments were, say, 'great against magic' versus 'bad against melee,' for example, I think you'd be completely right here.
How about 'stupidly good at mage-slaying or completely useless at it depending on the circumstances'* and 'great at fighter slaying but sucks at non-magical monster slaying'?

*ie. whether the mage runs away on sight. Seriously, if the mage is ever within 30ft it is dead. Within dim door range and it's almost dead.

[BenTheJester]

Thanks Lappy, I'll work on the rewording a bit later.


I reduced Antimagic to a 60% chance of spell failure from the inside.(you are still immuned to anything incoming)

I'm bumping Spell Reflection to level 9, and I'm wondering what I could do. I based this ability on the Spell Reflection ACF in complete mage, but did not notice it applied only to spells with an attack roll.
I want to make this ability kind of like Spell Turning, but I don't want to give it a "reflect x number of spell levels per day".
I thought either to give it a % chance to reflect based on the spell level(the higher the spell, the less likely that it will be sent back).
Or to give the class a spell pool, aka "Every spell against which you save adds a number of points in a Spell Pool. To reflect a spell, you must spend a number of Pool points equal to the spell level of the spell which is being reflected"

I've toned down AC-to-SR to SR = ½AC

I'm removing both level 9 abilities

At level 7, if an enemy you threaten makes a 5ft step, you can also make one, by giving up one attack of opportunity for the round.
The idea behind this is to make enemy caster unable to 5ft step away from you in order to cast a spell unthreatened.

Resist the Unresistable now takes a penalty equal to twice the spell level of the spell being cast.
Is it still too powerful?


I'm also looking at a way to get in melee range of spellcasters(something which is usually a big problem), I don't like the 4th level ability.

Some way to prevent teleports would be nice too.



You know how the Truenamer and Samurai are broken? They either end encounters single handedly or are useless.
Truenamer sucks because he can't even use his abilities.

Samurai is broken because he doesn't get anything.


That's not actually true...
For example an ability that reads "Add +100 to your AC." cannot be balanced in any way.

Yes it can be. By reducing the bonus from +100 to +5. Or by making it work on one attack per day.

[GoC]

Truenamer sucks because he can't even use his abilities.

Samurai is broken because he doesn't get anything.
I'm gathering you haven't seen an optimized Truenamer or Samurai build then?

[nolispe]

Actually, this is not that bad. Then again, I am opposed on principle to critisizing non-spellcasting builds.

[Milskidasith]

Perhaps, but 'great at mage-slaying' and 'terrible at mage-slaying' seem more like discrepancies between opinion. If the arguments were, say, 'great against magic' versus 'bad against melee,' for example, I think you'd be completely right here.

Wait, I never said that it was terrible at mage slaying. It's terrible at level one through seven (with a breakoff point of "pretty damn good" if you can consistently hit at level 5, I guess, but at that level it's really hard to hit a mage), good at level eight because of the SR, broken at level 9 because of the spell reflection, and even more broken at level 10.

It's also not bad against melee at level 10. Enemy melee combatants can't move around to avoid AoOs, and you can negate all of their magical gear and items with no save. Anybody who relies on magic or magic items, which, at level 17, is everybody, is worthless against this class.

EDIT: Also, yes, I didn't give any suggestions to make the abilities better. That's because they are either decently powerful (greater dispel mgaic strike), OK (mettle) or broken (The anti magic shell, the SR, the spell reflection, the SR to SR no spells).

The only salvageable part of this class, the one single feature that isn't already OK (OK features include mettle, the dimension door, pierce magical concealment, and the AoO ability), is that the dispel magic strike should be based on your character level, not class level. Besides that, it's all either good or unfixable.

[BenTheJester]

I'm gathering you haven't seen an optimized Truenamer or Samurai build then?

Truenamer yes. They still aren't up par with tier 1, so they are not THAT scary.

And no I have not seen an optimized Samurai, but if he can be broken, any character with that degree of optimization could, he is still not a "either horribly weak or horribly strong".

[GoC]

Truenamer yes. They still aren't up par with tier 1, so they are not THAT scary.

And no I have not seen an optimized Samurai, but if he can be broken, any character with that degree of optimization could, he is still not a "either horribly weak or horribly strong".
I'm confused. Do you agree or disagree with the statement: Truenamers and Samurais are either horribly weak or horribly strong.
If so can you provide an example of a balanced Truenamer/Samurai build that can't be trivially made better?

[BenTheJester]

I'm confused. Do you agree or disagree with the statement: Truenamers and Samurais are either horribly weak or horribly strong.
If so can you provide an example of a balanced Truenamer/Samurai build that can't be trivially made better?

I never said they were balanced, but they are not "either horribly weak or horribly strong"
You said Samurais could be broken to be horribly strong. I have yet to see that.

[Glimbur]

I never said they were balanced, but they are not "either horribly weak or horribly strong"
You said Samurais could be broken to be horribly strong. I have yet to see that.

Check out this fight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125885). DC 34+1d20 will save or be cowering, repeatable all fight, is pretty scary.

[Fortuna]

What's the HD?

[GoC]

Check out this fight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125885). DC 34+1d20 will save or be cowering, repeatable all fight, is pretty scary.
At level 13. At 20 you could do this to pit fiends.
1 samurai vs. 10 pit fiends is a curbstomp in samurai's favor.:smallbiggrin: