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Wings of Peace
2010-02-20, 07:55 AM
Can anyone tell me exactly what kind of action Hiding is? The context of this question is that I've been working on a Hide in Plain Sight Factotum build. I'm well aware of the option to snipe while hiding however with Cunning Surge I can gain additional standard and move actions. My confusion is that I am unclear on whether I can use these spare actions to just re-hide after making a full attack or not.

The SRD on Hiding Actions says:
"Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesnít take a separate action."

But this does not say explicitly that I can perform what I have in mind or at least not with such thoroughness that I feel I can call it RAW without outside agreement. Of course I may just be being finicky since I am not a fan of the word "usually" in cases like this.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-20, 08:19 AM
Can anyone tell me exactly what kind of action Hiding is? The context of this question is that I've been working on a Hide in Plain Sight Factotum build. I'm well aware of the option to snipe while hiding however with Cunning Surge I can gain additional standard and move actions. My confusion is that I am unclear on whether I can use these spare actions to just re-hide after making a full attack or not.

The SRD on Hiding Actions says:

But this does not say explicitly that I can perform what I have in mind or at least not with such thoroughness that I feel I can call it RAW without outside agreement. Of course I may just be being finicky since I am not a fan of the word "usually" in cases like this.

Sniping is a special action where you get one attack, then rehide.
You can make a full attack and hide for free providing you meet all the qualifications for hiding. (not observed, have cover/concealment). Some rules may circumvent one, the other, or both of those restrictions. However, if you full attack, after the first one, you won't be hiding any more. In other words, only your first attack will get hiding benefits.

Now, if you're a halfling with 10 levels of rogue, the halfling rogue substitution from Races of the Wild allows you to make a full attack snipe, and hide as a free action afterwards.

Darrin
2010-02-20, 08:21 AM
Can anyone tell me exactly what kind of action Hiding is? The context of this question is that I've been working on a Hide in Plain Sight Factotum build. I'm well aware of the option to snipe while hiding however with Cunning Surge I can gain additional standard and move actions. My confusion is that I am unclear on whether I can use these spare actions to just re-hide after making a full attack or not.


Hiding is not an action in and of itself, it is generally combined with some other action. Usually it's a move action, or some type of movement.

Hiding after a ranged attack is covered by the sniping rules. However, the rules for hiding after a melee attack are extremely unclear, and an even murkier FAQ ruling gets into pretty bizarre "WTF" territory. According to the FAQ, a ranger making a full attack while using Hide In Plain Sight makes a hide check after every attack roll. Assuming he succeeds on every roll, he can stay hidden.



But this does not say explicitly that I can perform what I have in mind or at least not with such thoroughness that I feel I can call it RAW without outside agreement. Of course I may just be being finicky since I am not a fan of the word "usually" in cases like this.

If you're making a hide check in any round where you've made an attack (ranged, melee or otherwise), you have a -20 to your roll. The point of contention seems to be at what point and how many hide rolls you need to make. The FAQ seems to think once for every attack, although rules-wise is on a lot of shaky ground (that and the fact that the FAQ is so blatantly wrong more often than not). The FAQ doesn't address what happens if you miss the Hide check on one attack, but make the next one, or make a 5' step to change your position, or not move at all (which HiPS allows so long as you meet the cover/concealment requirement).

To make a Hide check, you need two things: 1) no one is looking at you and 2) cover/concealment. Depending on which version of HiPS you have, 1) is no longer a requirement, but some form of 2) may be necessary. The way I'd probably rule things is, if you start the turn hiding, take your actions/Cunning Surge/etc., then if you still meet the requirements of HiPS, make your Hide check to go back into hiding. Checking after every attack would only be necessary if you're trying to qualify for Sneak Attack or deny the target's Dex for each attack.

(Curmudgeon will post shortly and proceed to shove both of my feet down my throat. He's the leading authority on HiPS shenanigans.)

NiteCyper
2010-02-20, 02:32 PM
1. "[Curmudgeon]'s the leading authority on HiPS shenanigans."
Now, that's a challenge if I ever heard one.

2. "Can anyone tell me exactly what kind of action Hiding is?"
Part of a movement. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/Hide.htm)
Darrin covers this.

3. "I've been working on a Hide in Plain Sight Factotum build."
That's one of the four stealthy characters I'd like to play.

4. "My confusion is that I am unclear on whether I can use these spare actions to just re-hide after making a full attack or not."
Why is it unclear? Full attack, use Cunning Surge to get an extra move action, use that move action to hide at a large penalty.
"Itís practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/Hide.htm)
The distance you travel with that move action (all or none of your maximum movement speed) is up to you.

5. re: PhoenixRiver's talk about hiding-benefits applied to multiple-attacks attack: there are no explicit benefits. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/22448665/3.5_Rogue_(FlankerSTR_Damager)&post_num=10#391075453)

6. re: Darren's talk about melee while HiPS: Please cite/link to the FAQ.

7. "The point of contention seems to be at what point and how many hide rolls you need to make."
Doesn't seem difficult; any point after you attack and once after every attack.

8. "the FAQ is so blatantly wrong more often than not"
I know about CustServ, but is the FAQ regarded with the same value as CustServ? What about Sage Advice?

9. "The FAQ doesn't address what happens if you miss the Hide check on one attack, but make the next one, or make a 5' step to change your position, or not move at all..."
I) You miss the Hide check, you reveal yourself.
II) You make the next one, you hide again assuming you can. In this case, you've been observed when you otherwise wouldn't have if you made every Hide check.
III) re: 5-foot step: you can hide using this.
IV) If by "not move at all" you also mean "after an attack", I would go off the ability to "make a Hide check after every attack".

10. "Checking after every attack would only be necessary if you're trying to qualify for Sneak Attack or deny the target's Dex for each attack."
Or stay hidden, in general. Else, they managed to observe you, e.g. they know what you look like.
Throwing back to point 5, you don't explicitly deny the target's Dexterity-bonus modifier to their (dodge) AC, for attacking while hidden. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/22448665/3.5_Rogue_(FlankerSTR_Damager)&post_num=10#391075453)
As well, I'd rule that if your target is denied their Dexterity bonus modifier to their (dodge) AC via attacking from being hidden, they'd be denied this bonus throughout one's round of attacks. For one, because Rogues need a break, secondly, because it makes sense since that how it works for surprise rounds.

Curmudgeon
2010-02-20, 02:57 PM
1. "[Curmudgeon]'s the leading authority on HiPS shenanigans."
Now, that's a challenge if I ever heard one.
The rules actually have everything you need, but their poor organization leads to confusion.

Excepting the one special case of using the Sniping option, no separate action is required to use Hide. There are a limited number of actions with which Hide can be combined, however.


Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesnít take a separate action.
If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide.
Itís practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.
So if you want to Hide while sheathing a sword (move action), or grabbing ammo (free action), you're out of luck; those aren't in the list of allowed combinations. But if you're doing one of the highlighted actions, you can Hide along with it, assuming you meet the skill use requirements.

The next issue is what type of Hide in Plain Sight you have. The Supernatural ones (Assassin, Shadowdancer) remove both of the Hide requirements (not being observed, and cover/concealment); most Extraordinary versions (such as the truly wimpy Dark Creature HiPS) only handle the first requirement, and may impose additional limitations.

NiteCyper
2010-02-20, 03:40 PM
tl;dr:
1. Hiding is a free action?
2. You'd rule that the Dark template's HiPS needs cover/concealment?


Excepting the one special case of using the Sniping option, no separate action is required to use Hide. There are a limited number of actions with which Hide can be combined, however. So if you want to Hide while sheathing a sword (move action), or grabbing ammo (free action), you're out of luck; those aren't in the list of allowed combinations. But if you're doing one of the highlighted actions, you can Hide along with it, assuming you meet the skill use requirements.

The next issue is what type of Hide in Plain Sight you have. The Supernatural ones (Assassin, Shadowdancer) remove both of the Hide requirements (not being observed, and cover/concealment); most Extraordinary versions (such as the truly wimpy Dark Creature HiPS) only handle the first requirement, and may impose additional limitations.
1. If "no separate action is required to use Hide", does that make it a free action?
2. If so, why bother combining?
3. Do you mean that performing any of the mentioned actions (not so much a "list of allowed combinations"), one is forced to don the imposed conditions of the relevant action, e.g. "using the Sniping option"?

4. re: Dark (http://img715.yfrog.com/img715/2496/tom161dark.png) template's HiPS vs. Supernatural ones: how does one account for the use of the preposition "even" as opposed to without?

Consider the second case: Ranger's HiPS (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm#hideinPlainSight) vs. explicit additional conditions as given by the Hide skill section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/Hide.htm).
"A 13th-level ranger can attempt a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesnít grant cover or concealment. A 17th-level ranger can do this even while being observed."
I.e. the first clause (as "even if [the natural terrain] doesn't grant cover or concealment) of the Special section of the Hide skill does not appear in the text of the Ranger's HiPS class feature itself.

Unfortunately, this is not a strong argument as the PHB, before, has delineated more, salient conditions of a feature elsewhere's in the book rather than fully in its own section of said feature. Such a case is the use of the "Disable Device (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disableDevice.htm)" skill without the use of corresponding Masterwork tools imposing a penalty, i.e. unlike its close cousin skill, "Open Lock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/OpenLock.htm)", the SRD doesn't mention the -2 penalty for attempting to use the "Disable Device" skill without Masterwork Thieves' Tools (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsandservices.htm) as the item, or items, in question stipulate in their own description, outside of the skill's description.

Greenish
2010-02-20, 05:07 PM
Consider the second case: Ranger's HiPS (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm#hideinPlainSight) vs. explicit additional conditions as given by the Hide skill section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/Hide.htm).
"A 13th-level ranger can attempt a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesnít grant cover or concealment. A 17th-level ranger can do this even while being observed."
I.e. the first clause (as "even if [the natural terrain] doesn't grant cover or concealment) of the Special section of the Hide skill does not appear in the text of the Ranger's HiPS class feature itself.Rangers get Camouflage at level 13, allowing them to hide without concealment or cover. They get the actual HiPS at 17th level.

Probably ninja'ed... :smallcool:

Curmudgeon
2010-02-20, 05:14 PM
1. If "no separate action is required to use Hide", does that make it a free action?
2. If so, why bother combining?
No, Hide is not a free action. That's a specific defined term in D&D, and isn't used in the skill's description. There's simply no action for the skill itself (with one specific exception for Sniping), but a limitation in which actions Hide can be combined with.

3. Do you mean that performing any of the mentioned actions (not so much a "list of allowed combinations"), one is forced to don the imposed conditions of the relevant action, e.g. "using the Sniping option"?
Sorry, but I really don't understand the question. There are allowed combinations, and that's it.

4. re: Dark (http://img715.yfrog.com/img715/2496/tom161dark.png) template's HiPS vs. Supernatural ones: how does one account for the use of the preposition "even" as opposed to without?
"Even" just means "still". If you meet the other Hide requirement (cover/concealment), this form of HiPS means you can Hide:
when not being observed; and
when being observed.
I.e., you can still Hide. In all forms of Hide in Plain Sight the descriptions specify plainly which of the Hide requirements are satisfied by the ability. There's no mention of satisfying the cover/concealment requirement in Tome of Magic on page 161. Despite a shared name, there's no connection among these various abilities. The Ranger, Shadowdancer, and Dark Creature abilities are all independent and do not inherit any characteristics of other abilities except where explicitly stated (as, for example, the UA Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) explicitly obtains the Ranger version of HiPS).

Greenish
2010-02-20, 05:24 PM
Is "movement" a term defined in RAW? (Yes, it's a silly question.)

Would a 5-foot step qualify for Hiding? (Assuming that you satisfy other requirements.)

Would dropping prone qualify?

Curmudgeon
2010-02-20, 05:46 PM
Is "movement" a term defined in RAW? (Yes, it's a silly question.)

During combat, movement occurs on the battle grid. A square on the battle grid is 1 inch across, representing a 5-foot-by-5-foot area. So "movement" is anything that changes your 5' square. That includes a 5' adjustment, but not move actions that don't change your square.

NiteCyper
2010-02-20, 05:53 PM
Against a creature with Darkvision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm), would one still be able to HiPS with the "Blend into Shadows" feat from Drow of the Underdark, page 47 (http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/3927/dotu47featsbis.png)?

Darkvision - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#darkvision

"A creature canít hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover."
This should be appended to "in concealment-granting (shadowy) illumination".

Not to mention that BiS'(s) text implies that Hiding requires an action more than Swift.

Greenish
2010-02-20, 05:59 PM
So "movement" is anything that changes your 5' square. That includes a 5' adjustment, but not move actions that don't change your square.Grand, thanks for clarifying.

Wings of Peace
2010-02-20, 06:13 PM
On the point of hiding after each attack. If all that I wish for is to catch my opponent flat-footed will I need to hide after each attack or just after the last one?

The primary method of attack for this Factotum will be Iaijutsu and a Gnomish Quickrazor. So the only time I will need to rehide is after the full attack completely finishes (to enable me to do the same again the next round) yes? Or will the rules force me to hide after each attack in the series even if I don't actually need/want to?

NiteCyper
2010-02-20, 07:24 PM
The denial of their DEX-bonus to AC lasts for the entire turn. (http://img198.imageshack.us/g/rulescomp77nvsblty2.png/)

How come the action to Hide is a free "free" action except for Sniping? I can't understand this ruling compared to being able to Hide while attacking. Do I understand correctly that one can full-attack and Hide at the end automatically? How about a full-attack and a 5-foot step? Full ranged-attack + 5-foot step?