[3.5] What are the most worthwhile non-metamagic feats for a wizard?

[Myou]

As the title says, what are the most worthwhile non-metamagic feats for an arcane caster?
I'm playing a wizard and I'm not sure what feats to take other than metamagic, but I also want to know generally.
Reserve feats can be useful, but I already know about those.

I know that the best feats will vary with the character's role, but generally speaking some will always be pretty good while others will be bad.

(All books, no dragon magazine or 3rd party.)

[Yzzyx]

As the title says, what are the most worthwhile non-metamagic feats for an arcane caster?
I'm playing a wizard and I'm not sure what feats to take other than metamagic, but I also want to know generally.
Reserve feats can be useful, but I already know about those.

I know that the best feats will vary with the character's role, but generally speaking some will always be pretty good while others will be bad.

Between metamagic feats, a reserve feat or two, maybe Uncanny Forethought or Cloudy Conjuration or something like that, Mindsight if dipping into Mindbender, and, of course, prerequisite feats for prestige classes, most wizards have plenty of worthwhile feats availble.

[Eloel]

Arcane Thesis is a good one to have.
Draconic feats could be nice if you play a sorcerer.
Stuff like Shadow Weave Magic, Insidious Magic, Tenacious Magic & Pernicious Magic (Player's Guide to either Faerun or Eberron, not sure.) could be nice on an illusionist or enchanter
Reserve Feats, as said, are nice.
Greater / Spell Focus/Penetration might be nice if you feel you don't have anything better to do.
Arcane Mastery lets you take 10 on caster level checks, those include Dispel and SR checks, so it's quite good.

[Amphetryon]

Core, it's really hard to go wrong with Improved Initiative. Spell Penetration and its ilk can be extraordinarily helpful, but somewhat campaign dependent.

Earth Spell and Aberrant Banemagic are both solid choices outside core.

[magic9mushroom]

For a Sorcerer, Evil's Blessing is awesome if you're evil. Evil's Blessing is stupidly borked in general, though, if you have a high Cha. (Elder Evils, you can take a standard action to get +Cha to all saves for 5 rounds, no use limit)

The "meta-metamagic" feats are always nice, but I assume they're also not what you're looking for.

Improved Initiative is a good one to grab if you have a spare.

[TheCountAlucard]

Craft Contingent Spell is stupid good if you're clever enough with its use.

[magic9mushroom]

Craft Contingent Spell is stupid good if you're clever enough with its use.

No it isn't. The existence of CCS in the game world is stupid good. You don't have to take it.

[Eldariel]

Well, Core:
- Leadership
- Improved Familiar
- Craft Wondrous Items
- Craft Rods
- (Craft Magic Arms & Armor; only to help the silly swordswingers)
- Spell Focus: Conjuration & Greater
- Spell Penetration & Greater
- Improved Initiative

Out-of-Core:
- Practical Metamagic
- Easy Metamagic
- Metamagic School Focus
- Cloudy Conjuration
- Arcane Thesis
- Extraordinary Spell Aim
- Extraordinary Concentration
- (Alacritous Cogitation; sorta busted by RAW)
- Craft Contingent Spell
and billions of others

[Gorbash]

The "meta-metamagic" feats are always nice, but I assume they're also not what you're looking for.

Kinda implied by the topic title. :smalltongue:

Keen Intellect - just having a good save progression doesn't mean you'll have a good will save and being a Wizard you'll be a prime target for Feebleminds.

Improved Initiative - Important if you're a Conjurer or Transmuter. In first case lets you lay down your BC spells before the pesky party members get in the way and in the second case lets you shut down enemies before having the chance to act.

Spell Focus - They give you entry to Archmage, so the chances are you'll probably be taking them anyways. Transmutation and Conjuratin/Illusion are the best candidates.

Alacritous Cogitation - meaning EVEN MORE versatiliy. Leave one spell slot open and cast any spell you want from that slot as a full-round action. Good to have when for situational spells (Corpse Candle or some such).

[magic9mushroom]

Kinda implied by the topic title. :smalltongue:

Keen Intellect - just having a good save progression doesn't mean you'll have a good will save and being a Wizard you'll be a prime target for Feebleminds.

Improved Initiative - Important if you're a Conjurer or Transmuter. In first case lets you lay down your BC spells before the pesky party members get in the way and in the second case lets you shut down enemies before having the chance to act.

Spell Focus - They give you entry to Archmage, so the chances are you'll probably be taking them anyways. Transmutation and Conjuratin/Illusion are the best candidates.

Alacritous Cogitation - meaning EVEN MORE versatiliy. Leave one spell slot open and cast any spell you want from that slot as a full-round action. Good to have when for situational spells (Corpse Candle or some such).

I did say "meta-metamagic" feats. Only some of them are metamagic feats themselves.

That reminds me, Spellcasting Prodigy FTW.

[lord_khaine]

Alacritous Cogitation - meaning EVEN MORE versatiliy. Leave one spell slot open and cast any spell you want from that slot as a full-round action. Good to have when for situational spells (Corpse Candle or some such).

Where is this one from?

[magic9mushroom]

Where is this one from?

My 5 second Googling says Complete Mage.

[PhoenixRivers]

Good ones to have:

Arcane Mastery - Taking 10 is good.
Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment (Inquisition) - Gaining the Inquisition domain's power as a wizard is sexy.

[Eloel]

If you're planning on doing any summoning and already have Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning is a no-brainer.

If you'll raise undead, check out the Corpsecrafter feat chain.

[deuxhero]

Without artificers in your world, crafting feats are a decent enough choice if you have downtime.

[Myou]

I'm not a fan of reserve feats, they just seem clumsy to me, I don't really like them. And by non-metamagic I really meant to include reducers, but nevermind. :smallsmile:

Funny to see so many suggestions of Improved Initiative, I always thought it was only meant to be worthwhile in core-only games, is that not so?


Between metamagic feats, a reserve feat or two, maybe Uncanny Forethought or Cloudy Conjuration or something like that, Mindsight if dipping into Mindbender, and, of course, prerequisite feats for prestige classes, most wizards have plenty of worthwhile feats availble.

Uncanny Forethought looks interesting, I don't think I've ever heard of that one. You get perhaps eight spontanious slots a day, the only drawback being that they require a full round action to cast? And your Spell Mastery spells don't even require that. It seems like it would be more popular.


Arcane Thesis is a good one to have.
Draconic feats could be nice if you play a sorcerer.
Stuff like Shadow Weave Magic, Insidious Magic, Tenacious Magic & Pernicious Magic (Player's Guide to either Faerun or Eberron, not sure.) could be nice on an illusionist or enchanter
Reserve Feats, as said, are nice.
Greater / Spell Focus/Penetration might be nice if you feel you don't have anything better to do.
Arcane Mastery lets you take 10 on caster level checks, those include Dispel and SR checks, so it's quite good.

What do those Eberron/Faerun feats do? Boost illusions somehow?

Spell Focus/Penetration has always seemed like a waste of a feat to me - if your DC is too low why not use a no-save spell on creature with high saving throws, etc.

Arcane Mastery seems nice, but again it doen't really seem worth a feat, just to be able to take average rolls, given that higher level foes will require you rolling better than that anyway. But maybe I'm too picky?


Core, it's really hard to go wrong with Improved Initiative. Spell Penetration and its ilk can be extraordinarily helpful, but somewhat campaign dependent.

Earth Spell and Aberrant Banemagic are both solid choices outside core.

Needing Earth Sense and Heighten for Earth Spell seems too high a price to me, since it's basically Practical Metamagic (or is it Easy metamagic?) for Heighten Spell - unless you're a gnome of course. :smallwink:

Aberrant Banemagic? The index just says it makes you do extra damage to abberations, is that not too narrow an application?


For a Sorcerer, Evil's Blessing is awesome if you're evil. Evil's Blessing is stupidly borked in general, though, if you have a high Cha. (Elder Evils, you can take a standard action to get +Cha to all saves for 5 rounds, no use limit)

The "meta-metamagic" feats are always nice, but I assume they're also not what you're looking for.

Improved Initiative is a good one to grab if you have a spare.

Wouldn't a paladin dip get you that blessing feat for free?

You assume correctly, I should have said so but didn't think of it. :3


Craft Contingent Spell is stupid good if you're clever enough with its use.

Aha, yes, perhaps my favourite feat, I'm looking forward to getting that one!
Edit: By the way, why does it require caster level 11? You don't get a feat until 12 normally anyway, so why the odd number? Just wondering.

[Eldariel]

Funny to see so many suggestions of Improved Initiative, I always thought it was only meant to be worthwhile in core-only games, is that not so?

It's decent enough to pick instead of Scribe Scroll. That's about it.


Edit: By the way, why does it require caster level 11? You don't get a feat until 12 normally anyway, so why the odd number? Just wondering.

Many feats require 11 of X; you can count that as having a multiclass allowance or simply ignoring the levels you actually gain feats on in prerequisites (there's e.g. Improved Precise Shot, Greater TWF and such you gain off "11 of the class-base thingy").

[Starbuck_II]

Aha, yes, perhaps my favourite feat, I'm looking forward to getting that one!
Edit: By the way, why does it require caster level 11? You don't get a feat until 12 normally anyway, so why the odd number? Just wondering.

A Rogue 1/Wizard 10 can take it as a bonus feat. Take practiced spellcaster or some other +1 caster feat.

[PhoenixRivers]

Arcane Mastery seems nice, but again it doen't really seem worth a feat, just to be able to take average rolls, given that higher level foes will require you rolling better than that anyway. But maybe I'm too picky?You are. With a small amount of work, and an average, consistent roll, you can, at level 12, easily dispel CL 19 spells 100% of the time with this feat.

For example:
Wizard 3/Master Specialist 9 (Abjurer)

MS gives you +4 to dispel checks.
Planar Touchstone for the inquisition domain gives you another +4.
A dispelling cord is about 2000gp, and gives another +2 5x/day.

Now, take 10, +10 for a dispel, +4, +4, +2 = 30, or enough to dispel a CL 19. With a Greater Dispel? CL 21.

This means if the BBEG is a wizard 7 levels above you, you can still reliably dispel/counter what he has.

[dspeyer]

Vow of nonviolence -- if you're planning to follow it anyway, +4 to save DCs is huge

Martial Study (action before thought, mind over body) -- you've already put ranks in concentration, may as well shore up some defenses. No, there aren't prerequisites (besides level), And if you feel cheesy, skill-boosting items are cheap.

Martial Study (baffling defense) -- Maybe. AC can be hard to get, but unlike the saves you absolutely expect to need it multiple times per encounter. Also, this has a prerequisite and you aren't likely to already have sense motive.

Anything that improves your class skill list. -- You've got high int and a near-empty list. Almost anything's better than a tenth knowledge. If you're indecisive, take able learner and dabble in everything.

[Dyllan]

Funny to see so many suggestions of Improved Initiative, I always thought it was only meant to be worthwhile in core-only games, is that not so?


Look at it this way. With Improved Initiative, you go first in 20% of the instances where you otherwise wouldn't. Going first means you can lay down a spell to control the battlefield before your enemies get a chance to do the same, or to get into position. If you're a blaster, you could kill some of the enemies before they even get a chance to go. You can make sure you buff your allies before their first round of combat. You can be aware of that rogue so he doesn't get sneak attack first round...

It comes down to action economy. Going before your enemies is better than going after them and getting to act twice. I think getting that advantage one battle out of five is worth it in any campaign.

[Myou]

- Cloudy Conjuration
- Extraordinary Spell Aim
- Extraordinary Concentration
- (Alacritous Cogitation; sorta busted by RAW)
- Craft Contingent Spell
and billions of others

Funny, I thought Extraordinary Spell Aim was metamagic, my mistake. But barring AMF shenanigans I'm not sure I see the great advantage.

Extraordinary Concentration I certainly see the use of, although I guess you need to deliberately pick spells that require concentration, there aren't any really good one that cme to mind, other than maybe Manyjaws.



Kinda implied by the topic title. :smalltongue:

Keen Intellect - just having a good save progression doesn't mean you'll have a good will save and being a Wizard you'll be a prime target for Feebleminds.

Improved Initiative - Important if you're a Conjurer or Transmuter. In first case lets you lay down your BC spells before the pesky party members get in the way and in the second case lets you shut down enemies before having the chance to act.

Spell Focus - They give you entry to Archmage, so the chances are you'll probably be taking them anyways. Transmutation and Conjuratin/Illusion are the best candidates.

Alacritous Cogitation - meaning EVEN MORE versatiliy. Leave one spell slot open and cast any spell you want from that slot as a full-round action. Good to have when for situational spells (Corpse Candle or some such).

Keen Intellect is a Dragon feat, but it definitely is very good.

It seems that Alacritous Cogitation and Uncanny Foresight are very similar. Does Uncanny foresight also let you cast longer casting time spells as a full round action, or is that just Alacritous Cogitation?



That reminds me, Spellcasting Prodigy FTW.

I suppose that if you're on the cusp of an extra ninth level spell it's worth it. I'm not sure otherwise.



Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment (Inquisition) - Gaining the Inquisition domain's power as a wizard is sexy.

+4 to dispel checks?
The feat seems to require an actual quest to take it though, and given that it take up many pages in the book just describing what you have to do I think I'll just leave it. :smalltongue:



If you're planning on doing any summoning and already have Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning is a no-brainer.

If you'll raise undead, check out the Corpsecrafter feat chain.

Personally I don't really do either, but I agree that they look like very useful feats if you do. :3



Without artificers in your world, crafting feats are a decent enough choice if you have downtime.

I did consider CWI, but we can probably get a cohort or something to do that stuff.

[Myou]

Many feats require 11 of X; you can count that as having a multiclass allowance or simply ignoring the levels you actually gain feats on in prerequisites (there's e.g. Improved Precise Shot, Greater TWF and such you gain off "11 of the class-base thingy").


A Rogue 1/Wizard 10 can take it as a bonus feat. Take practiced spellcaster or some other +1 caster feat.

Well that makes sense then. :smallsmile:


You are. With a small amount of work, and an average, consistent roll, you can, at level 12, easily dispel CL 19 spells 100% of the time with this feat.

For example:
Wizard 3/Master Specialist 9 (Abjurer)

MS gives you +4 to dispel checks.
Planar Touchstone for the inquisition domain gives you another +4.
A dispelling cord is about 2000gp, and gives another +2 5x/day.

Now, take 10, +10 for a dispel, +4, +4, +2 = 30, or enough to dispel a CL 19. With a Greater Dispel? CL 21.

This means if the BBEG is a wizard 7 levels above you, you can still reliably dispel/counter what he has.

Well, that's two feats and nine levels of a PrC I don't want, and requires a weak specialisation, but I see your point, good if you actually are playing an abjurer. :smalltongue:


Vow of nonviolence -- if you're planning to follow it anyway, +4 to save DCs is huge

Martial Study (action before thought, mind over body) -- you've already put ranks in concentration, may as well shore up some defenses. No, there aren't prerequisites (besides level), And if you feel cheesy, skill-boosting items are cheap.

Martial Study (baffling defense) -- Maybe. AC can be hard to get, but unlike the saves you absolutely expect to need it multiple times per encounter. Also, this has a prerequisite and you aren't likely to already have sense motive.

Anything that improves your class skill list. -- You've got high int and a near-empty list. Almost anything's better than a tenth knowledge. If you're indecisive, take able learner and dabble in everything.

Vow Of Nonviolence: At first I thought it would suck - no Disintegrations! But actually, you can still disintegrate anything non-humanoid/monsterous humanoid, and as you say, +4 is a pretty good bonus. But it requires Sacred Vow, which is utterly worthless. I am conflicted. :smallannoyed:

Martial Study sounds like a good idea, although skill boosting item aren't an option for me.

Able Learner is human only though, and I think first level only too, right?


Look at it this way. With Improved Initiative, you go first in 20% of the instances where you otherwise wouldn't. Going first means you can lay down a spell to control the battlefield before your enemies get a chance to do the same, or to get into position. If you're a blaster, you could kill some of the enemies before they even get a chance to go. You can make sure you buff your allies before their first round of combat. You can be aware of that rogue so he doesn't get sneak attack first round...

It comes down to action economy. Going before your enemies is better than going after them and getting to act twice. I think getting that advantage one battle out of five is worth it in any campaign.

How do you calculate that it's 20%? are you assuming that on average foe will have about the same modifier as you?

Anyway, I don't follow the numbers there, but I guess it is better than it seems. I'm still not sure I'd take it though.

[Eloel]

Accurate Jaunt is another feat (in SRD and in Unearthed Arcana) that's interesting to have. It's basically the same as the capstone of Wayfarer Guide, a 3-level teleport-based PrC in Complete Arcane.


How do you calculate that it's 20%? are you assuming that on average foe will have about the same modifier as you?
The 20% is the increase in your chance to go first, unless your chance is so far below 0 that it isn't funny.
Consider the following;

You have +0 modifier, your opponent rolls a 19 total (somehow. don't care about his modifier or roll itself)
You have a 5% chance of going first.

With Improved Initiative, you have a +4 modifier
That is a 25% chance of going first, or 5x the chance you had without the feat.

[Gorbash]

Arcane Mastery seems nice, but again it doen't really seem worth a feat, just to be able to take average rolls, given that higher level foes will require you rolling better than that anyway. But maybe I'm too picky?

Think about it this way. Why risk your spells to fail? And that happens on less than average rolls. Automatically dispel everything and pass most SRs is definitely worth the feat.


Spell Focus/Penetration has always seemed like a waste of a feat to me - if your DC is too low why not use a no-save spell on creature with high saving throws, etc.


The trick is to get it so high that even those with good saving throws will have a hard time succeeding on that save. Certainly possible with your already sky high int, spell focuses and spells like Spell Enhancer.


It's decent enough to pick instead of Scribe Scroll. That's about it.

I actually picked it as my 9th lvl feat. :smalltongue: Works wonders with Nerveskitter, Combat Readiness and Cat's Grace. Basically, it's Celerity without calling it cheese.

[Eldariel]

Funny, I thought Extraordinary Spell Aim was metamagic, my mistake. But barring AMF shenanigans I'm not sure I see the great advantage.

Eh, it doesn't take a genius to figure out uses for shaped Walls of X, Disjunctions, Solid Fogs or similars. It's very useful.

[Octopus Jack]

Depends on what your fighting but I always find improved counterspell to be helpful when fighting other casters

[Myou]

Accurate Jaunt is another feat (in SRD and in Unearthed Arcana) that's interesting to have. It's basically the same as the capstone of Wayfarer Guide, a 3-level teleport-based PrC in Complete Arcane.

The 20% is the increase in your chance to go first, unless your chance is so far below 0 that it isn't funny.
Consider the following;

You have +0 modifier, your opponent rolls a 19 total (somehow. don't care about his modifier or roll itself)
You have a 5% chance of going first.

With Improved Initiative, you have a +4 modifier
That is a 25% chance of going first, or 5x the chance you had without the feat.

Ah, I see, I was confused because some enemies will roll higher than 4 more than your maximum result, but I guess that's not really common.


Think about it this way. Why risk your spells to fail? And that happens on less than average rolls. Automatically dispel everything and pass most SRs is definitely worth the feat.

The trick is to get it so high that even those with good saving throws will have a hard time succeeding on that save. Certainly possible with your already sky high int, spell focuses and spells like Spell Enhancer.

I actually picked it as my 9th lvl feat. :smalltongue: Works wonders with Nerveskitter, Combat Readiness and Cat's Grace. Basically, it's Celerity without calling it cheese.

Spell Enhancer? :smallconfused:
I've never heard of that, where's it from?

I think I prefer Celerity, it's cheaper. xD


Eh, it doesn't take a genius to figure out uses for shaped Walls of X, Disjunctions, Solid Fogs or similars. It's very useful.

Er... sorry for being stupid? o.o


Depends on what your fighting but I always find improved counterspell to be helpful when fighting other casters

Why not counter with Dispel Magic?

[Eldariel]

Er... sorry for being stupid? o.o

More like "Sorry for not thinking of all the applications the ability has" :smallbiggrin: Honestly though, ever wanted to build a Forcecage out of Walls of Force (so they remain in AMF)? Well, few Walls of Force with hole in the middle do just that.

Being able to drop safe Disjunctions/Greater Dispels at melee range can be exceedingly useful and you can use area-screw effects to only affect the opponent or create pathways to direct people where you want them at or whatever. It's just...breaking such a fundamental limitation on spells has an insane number of applications above and beyond AMFs.

[KillianHawkeye]

By the way, why does it require caster level 11? You don't get a feat until 12 normally anyway, so why the odd number? Just wondering.

It's because 11th level is when the contingency spell becomes available to wizards. Obviously you don't need the spell if you're taking the feat, but they wanted to keep it at the same place in a character's development.


Why not counter with Dispel Magic?

Because you only have a chance to fail if you use dispel magic. Normal counterspelling automatically succeeds.

[Gnorman]

Summon Elemental and Cloudy Conjuration (+1), definitely. But then, I almost always play a Conjurer.

[faceroll]

Reserve Feats are actually quite nice. The lightning one is nifty, because it's just damage, no save or nothing.

Metamagic feats are only worth taking if you have an early ability to apply metamagic reducers (if your DM lets you play with those). Otherwise, take them later on, when you can actually use them. Sculpt Spell is definitely a worthwhile low level metamagic, though. Making lines or cubes of grease, cones of glitterdust, etc. is worth the +1 level adjustment.

[Myou]

More like "Sorry for not thinking of all the applications the ability has" :smallbiggrin: Honestly though, ever wanted to build a Forcecage out of Walls of Force (so they remain in AMF)? Well, few Walls of Force with hole in the middle do just that.

Being able to drop safe Disjunctions/Greater Dispels at melee range can be exceedingly useful and you can use area-screw effects to only affect the opponent or create pathways to direct people where you want them at or whatever. It's just...breaking such a fundamental limitation on spells has an insane number of applications above and beyond AMFs.

Is that Wall of Force-cage made by combining it with Sculpt Spell?



It's because 11th level is when the contingency spell becomes available to wizards. Obviously you don't need the spell if you're taking the feat, but they wanted to keep it at the same place in a character's development.

Because you only have a chance to fail if you use dispel magic. Normal counterspelling automatically succeeds.

Oh, I hadn't noticed either of those points. Makes sense! :smallsmile:

Also, you still ought to take the spell, because contingencies cost XP, and you can't have more contingent spells a screated via the feat than you have hit dice.

[Emmerask]

You are. With a small amount of work, and an average, consistent roll, you can, at level 12, easily dispel CL 19 spells 100% of the time with this feat.

For example:
Wizard 3/Master Specialist 9 (Abjurer)

MS gives you +4 to dispel checks.
Planar Touchstone for the inquisition domain gives you another +4.
A dispelling cord is about 2000gp, and gives another +2 5x/day.

Now, take 10, +10 for a dispel, +4, +4, +2 = 30, or enough to dispel a CL 19. With a Greater Dispel? CL 21.

This means if the BBEG is a wizard 7 levels above you, you can still reliably dispel/counter what he has.


Taking 10

When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help.

[Myou]

Summon Elemental and Cloudy Conjuration (+1), definitely. But then, I almost always play a Conjurer.

Yeah, I don't normally summon, so for me that's not so good, but Cloudy Conjuration could still be useful.


Reserve Feats are actually quite nice. The lightning one is nifty, because it's just damage, no save or nothing.

Metamagic feats are only worth taking if you have an early ability to apply metamagic reducers (if your DM lets you play with those). Otherwise, take them later on, when you can actually use them. Sculpt Spell is definitely a worthwhile low level metamagic, though. Making lines or cubes of grease, cones of glitterdust, etc. is worth the +1 level adjustment.

Ohh, I never notived that, a line effect, no save, no SR. That's quite nice indeed.

[magic9mushroom]

Wouldn't a paladin dip get you that blessing feat for free?

It would, but being a paladin when you're Evil is kinda hard, and this doesn't require you to lose a caster level (as Prestige Paladin does, normal Paladin loses 2). Also, no excuse for the DM to shaft you - you only have to be normally Evil, not Paladin of Slaughter-level Evil.

This is kinda broken on a Succubus, by the way. Or anything else with stupendously high Charisma.


Taking 10

When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help.

That was errataed. Arcane Mastery allows you to always take 10, like the rogue special ability or the Artificer's UMD.

[Runestar]

I don't normally plan on counterspelling, so I think reactive counterspell could be useful. Something like a poor man's celerity, letting you counterspell as an immediate action, at the expense of your next turn. Great for when the enemy caster does something completely unexpected and your party just cannot afford to let it get through.

Isn't there a feat which lets you use your int to modify your reflex save instead of dex? Insightful reflexes or something. Looks useful at the higher lvs when the disparity gets greater.

As mentioned, the diamond mind save-boosters are nice, but you can acquire them using heroics, so you don't really need to waste feats acquiring them.

[magic9mushroom]

I don't normally plan on counterspelling, so I think reactive counterspell could be useful. Something like a poor man's celerity, letting you counterspell as an immediate action, at the expense of your next turn. Great for when the enemy caster does something completely unexpected and your party just cannot afford to let it get through.

Isn't there a feat which lets you use your int to modify your reflex save instead of dex? Insightful reflexes or something. Looks useful at the higher lvs when the disparity gets greater.

As mentioned, the diamond mind save-boosters are nice, but you can acquire them using heroics, so you don't really need to waste feats acquiring them.

Reactive Counterspell is beyond bad. You get a better effect by simply having Battlemagic Perception up, and recasting it every time you use it. That costs you no feats, and only uses a standard action the turn after you counterspell, instead of your whole turn.

[JaronK]

I'm a fan of Collegate Wizard. Saves you a ton of money and ensures that you always get the spells you want as you level, even if the campaign makes it difficult to get the scrolls you want.

JaronK

[Iceforge]

DR325 had a list of specialization wizard special feats, they can be found on crystalkeep's list of 3.5 feats (www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf)

I sure love "Ability Enhancer" for my Transmuter, who now gives +2 more with any spell that boosts an ability (i.e. +6 with bull's strength, or +7str/con/cha, +4natural armor with Draconic might)

[magic9mushroom]

DR325 had a list of specialization wizard special feats, they can be found on crystalkeep's list of 3.5 feats (www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf)

I sure love "Ability Enhancer" for my Transmuter, who now gives +2 more with any spell that boosts an ability (i.e. +6 with bull's strength, or +7str/con/cha, +4natural armor with Draconic might)

Ability Enhancer is kinda broken, since with Persistent Spell (along with some method of getting it cheaply, like DMM, Cooperative Metamagic, Metamagic Effect) you just nullified the entire need for ability-boost items.

[PhoenixRivers]

Because you only have a chance to fail if you use dispel magic. Normal counterspelling automatically succeeds.

Normal Counterspelling also requires the exact spell, which means, if you want to Counter a Time Stop, you need to cast a Time Stop.

Countering with Dispel Magic means that you can take a level 3 spell, and counter a level 9. And yes, it's possible to reliably counter level 9 spells with a level 3 dispel magic. By reliably, I mean "With 100% accuracy".

[Runestar]

Reactive Counterspell is beyond bad. You get a better effect by simply having Battlemagic Perception up, and recasting it every time you use it. That costs you no feats, and only uses a standard action the turn after you counterspell, instead of your whole turn.

Never noticed that spell before! I stand corrected. It is just obscene... :smallredface:

[magic9mushroom]

Never noticed that spell before! I stand corrected. It is just obscene... :smallredface:

There are tons of other ways to get immediate-action counterspells without readying. BmP is alone in getting a free-action one though (all the others are immediate actions, meaning no quickened spell the next turn). Just off the top of my head...

Ring of Spell-Battle
Duelward
Celerity (this also uses your next turn, but you can use Quick Recovery to cheesily avoid that, also mentioned because it lets you do other stuff than counterspell, like Orb-nuke them or put up a Dispelling Screen)
Ring of Greater Counterspells
Divine Defiance

[Myou]

It would, but being a paladin when you're Evil is kinda hard, and this doesn't require you to lose a caster level (as Prestige Paladin does, normal Paladin loses 2). Also, no excuse for the DM to shaft you - you only have to be normally Evil, not Paladin of Slaughter-level Evil.

This is kinda broken on a Succubus, by the way. Or anything else with stupendously high Charisma.

Hmmm, I guess for sorcerers it's pretty awesome! :smallbiggrin:


Isn't there a feat which lets you use your int to modify your reflex save instead of dex? Insightful reflexes or something. Looks useful at the higher lvs when the disparity gets greater.

As mentioned, the diamond mind save-boosters are nice, but you can acquire them using heroics, so you don't really need to waste feats acquiring them.

Ohh, true, I forgot about that feat, especially good in lower powered games where you can't afford much Dex. :3


Reactive Counterspell is beyond bad. You get a better effect by simply having Battlemagic Perception up, and recasting it every time you use it. That costs you no feats, and only uses a standard action the turn after you counterspell, instead of your whole turn.

The spell at least seems worth taking, for times when you know you're fighting a higher level caster.


I'm a fan of Collegate Wizard. Saves you a ton of money and ensures that you always get the spells you want as you level, even if the campaign makes it difficult to get the scrolls you want.

JaronK

Happily I have no trouble getting scroll, but the money thing is still temping for any caster, it's something like 100,000 gold, right?


DR325 had a list of specialization wizard special feats, they can be found on crystalkeep's list of 3.5 feats (www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf)

I sure love "Ability Enhancer" for my Transmuter, who now gives +2 more with any spell that boosts an ability (i.e. +6 with bull's strength, or +7str/con/cha, +4natural armor with Draconic might)

No help for me, since I'm not a specialist, but if you are a Transmuter I'm sure it's as handy as Cloudy Conjuration for Conjurers.


Normal Counterspelling also requires the exact spell, which means, if you want to Counter a Time Stop, you need to cast a Time Stop.

Countering with Dispel Magic means that you can take a level 3 spell, and counter a level 9. And yes, it's possible to reliably counter level 9 spells with a level 3 dispel magic. By reliably, I mean "With 100% accuracy".

That's an excellent point that did not occur to me. But how do you make it a 100% likelyhood?

I'm just curious - I don't really think counterspelling is worth spending feats on, since it's so rarely worthwhile.

[Runestar]

That's an excellent point that did not occur to me. But how do you make it a 100% likelyhood?

I am guessing via stacking of misc abilities which add bonuses to your dispelling check.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Wizards%27_Handbook_by_Dictum_Mortuum_%28DnD_Optim ized_Character_Build%29/Tactics

[magic9mushroom]

Hmmm, I guess for sorcerers it's pretty awesome! :smallbiggrin:

That's what I said. Of course, it's significantly more stupidly ridiculous on a high-Cha monster.


The spell at least seems worth taking, for times when you know you're fighting a higher level caster.

BmP? Oh yeah. It's useful ALL the time, as it's one of the better pre-combat buffs.


That's an excellent point that did not occur to me. But how do you make it a 100% likelyhood?

I'm just curious - I don't really think counterspelling is worth spending feats on, since it's so rarely worthwhile.

Not hard. 10 levels of Master Specialist gives +5 to dispel checks, Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment) or a cleric dip gives you +4 (Inquisition domain). That's a +9, which is sufficient (with Arcane Mastery) to auto-dispel anything up to 8 caster levels higher than you. Elven Spell Lore can be used for an additional boost.

Where counterspelling really gets ridiculous is when you combine it with Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil and a level of Archmage for Mastery of Counterspelling. Put up Yellow/Violet veils and you're shielded against everything, with the only ways to get through being Disintegrate or MDJ. And if they chuck a Disintegrate, Counterspell it (with various methods of immediate action counterspells). Without metamagic reducers, they can't chuck two Disintegrates in a round, and can hence NEVER get your veils down.

[PhoenixRivers]

I'm just curious - I don't really think counterspelling is worth spending feats on, since it's so rarely worthwhile.

The best part is that whatever boosts your counterspelling, also boosts your Dispelling. And it's often worthwhile to dispel foes.

That said, let's start with an assumption.

The most extreme challenges of a campaign will be statted to the Party's ECL +6. In all likelihood, it's lower, but this is worst case scenario.

Let's look at ECL 13, and a caster focused on defensive magic, with a solid career path.

Wizard 3 / Master Specialist 8 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 2
(Final Career path is Wiz 3/MS 8/Iot7V 7/Archmage 2)

This path is good because Master Specialist sets you up with pretty much all the feats for the other 2 PrC's, and Archmage is a good add on to any Wizard.

As a master specialist (abjurer) you get a +4 to your CL check for Dispels.

Add on a Feat (Planar Touchstone, Catalogues of Enlightenment, Inquisition Domain). Now you get the granted power of the Inquisition Domain, which is +4 to your CL check for Dispels.

Add on a second Feat (Arcane Mastery), and you can take 10 on caster level checks.

With a 2000 gp item (chump change at level 13), you can get a +2 to Dispels 5 times a day (Dispelling Cord, MIC).

With just the above, you can cast a dispel (for counterspelling OR dispelling) and get a check every time of:
10 (Take ten) + 10 (Caster level) + 4 (Master Specialist) + 4 (Inquisition Domain) + 2 (Dispelling Cord) = 30.

That dispels a CL 19 spell, which is 6 CL above you. A greater Dispel will increase your Caster level bonus to +13, which will get you CL 22 spells.

If you need CL 20 with a regular dispel, memorize one Spellcaster's Bane. It'll add an additional +2 to dispel attempts.

As you'll likely not need to dispel above CL 17 more than one encounter a day, a single Dispelling cord should more than suffice.

Now, you have several free feats still (you've only used 2 for dispelling, and 1 for the Master Specialist, and you're pretty well covered to level 20), and you can dispel magic items/spells/effects made my casters much more powerful than you.

What can dispel be used for? Well, a dispel on a magic item renders it much more susceptible to sundering, a dispel on a character renders buffs gone, and if you're against a caster, you can essentially shut him down while the party does what they do.

EDIT: In the build posited above, I recommend one of the Archmage abilities to be:
SLA (Dispel Magic 4x/day) - Give up a 5th and 6th level slot
OR
SLA (Greater Dispel Magic 4x/day) - Give up a 5th and 9th level slot

Why? Because SLA's can't be countered. Thus, your dispels are much harder to stop.

Also, Mastery of Counterspelling would be nice in such a build.

[JonestheSpy]

I'm somewhat surprised nobody's mentioned Eschew Materials, but I suppose it requires a DM that keeps track of material components in the first place...

[Eldariel]

I'm somewhat surprised nobody's mentioned Eschew Materials, but I suppose it requires a DM that keeps track of material components in the first place...

Well, due to the wording of Spell Component Pouch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellComponentPouch), that's rarely an issue.

"A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch."