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GoC
2010-02-22, 07:34 PM
I was fooling around with the idea of a PrC for spellcasters that doesn't advance spellcasting. Here's the result.

Meta-Mage
General
Abilities: The most important one will be whatever the primary spellcasting stat is. Con is also fairly important.
Hitdie: d4

Prerequisites
Able to cast 3rd level spells
Eschew Materials and Quicken Spell feats

Class Skills
The Meta-Mage’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

The Table
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Superb metamagic|Limitations

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Dispel Resistance, +2 int/wis/cha|-

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Extra Spells, Protected Mage|-

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Refreshed, +4 int/wis/cha|-

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Flexibility, Multispell bonus feat|-

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Improved Multispell, +6 int/wis/cha|-

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Purely Mental|-

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|Practiced, +8 int/wis/cha|-

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Quick Thinker, Multispell bonus feat|-

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Not so fragile, +10 int/wis/cha|- [/table]

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Meta Mages gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Limitations
You cannot cast 9th level spells while a member of this prestige class.

Suberb Metamagic (Ex)
If you are a spontaneous spellcaster you get a number of levels of "free" metamagic equal to your Meta-Mage level per round. These can be used to reduce the level cost of any metamagic to a minimum of 1. Applying metamagic to spells no longer increases their casting time to a full-round action.
If you are a prepared spellcaster then you may reduce metamagic costs to a minimum of 1 when preparing spells but you may not cast spells in a round whose total "free" metamagic is greater than your Meta-Mage level.

For example a Sorcerer 10/Meta-Mage 3 could cast a quickened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell) fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm) and a maximized (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#maximizeSpell) fireball (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm) in one round using two level 5 slots (this would use up all her free metamagic for that round), but could not cast an Empowered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#empowerSpell), Extended (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#extendSpell), Ice Storm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/iceStorm.htm) as each of those metamagic modifications cannot be mitigated down lower than 1 and as a result the whole spell would take up a 6th level slot.

Dispel Resistance (Ex)
You add your Meta-Mage level to the DC of attempts to dispel spells cast by you.

+X int/wis/cha (Ex)
You choose whether this bonus will be a bonus to int, wis or cha when entering this class. It is an untyped bonus.

Extra Spells (Ex)
You gain 1 extra spell slot of every level you can cast. This increases to 2 at level 6 and 3 at level 9. If you later gain access to higher level spell slots then your bonus spell slots from Extra Spells applies to them too.

Protected Mage (Ex)
The Pierce Magical Protection, Pierce Magical Concealment and Mage Slayer feats do not work when used against you.
In addition, spells you cast can resist being suppressed by an antimagic field with a caster level check (DC=10+CL of antimagic field). If the spell has a duration longer than instantaneous then you may add the bonus you get from Dispel Resistance to the result of this check.

Refreshed (Ex)
Once per day as a full-round action you may replenish your spells/spell slots just as if you had rested for the day. Obviously, if you are a prepared spellcaster you may change your spell selection as desired upon doing this as long as you've already got your new spell list written down (no ten minute pauses in the middle of combat please!).

Flexibility (Ex)
If you are a spontaneous spellcaster then you gain one (increasing to two at 8th level and three at 10th level) more spell known for each of the levels of spells you can cast. eg. a sorceror 6/Meta-Mage 8 would gain 2 1st, 2 2nd and 2 3rd level spell known.
If you are a prepared spellcaster then you gain one extra spell slot of each spell level you are able to cast. You may cast any spell you know from these extra spell slots even if you haven't prepared it just as if you were a spontaneous spellcaster.

Multispell bonus feat (Ex)
You gain multispell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#multispell) as a bonus feat even if you do not meet the prerequisites.

Improved Multispell (Ex)
Once per round you may cast a quickened spell you have prepared as an immediate action. This counts against the number of quickened spells you can cast per round (if used when it's not your turn then subtract 1 from the number of quickened spells you can cast next round).

Purely Mental (Ex)
All spells you cast are automatically silent and stilled.

Practiced (Ex)
Once per day you may pick one spell you can cast. You gain that spell as a spell like ability, usable int/wis/cha modifier (depending on which you chose) times for the next 24 hours. If the spell has an XP cost or a costly material component you must pay that price every time you use the spell like ability.

Quick Thinker (Ex)
All standard action spells you cast are automatically quickened, for the price of one level of your Superb Metamagic ability instead of the usual four, whether you like it or not (this would decrease the number of standard action spells you could cast in a round but you get another multispell at this level so it stays the same).
This means that the very act of casting a spell uses up one level of free metamagic for that round.

Not so fragile (Su)
You add your int/wis/cha modifier as an enhancement bonus to all your other stats (str, con, dex, ect.). This ability does not function while you are polymorphed into another creature (yes, I know you were looking forward to being a Huge str 50 Fire Giant but sometimes sacrifices must be made).

.

Now there are a number of problems here:
Protected Mage doesn't appear to fit the theme.
I haven't a clue how to evaluate whether or not it's balanced.
The capstone isn't very interesting.

My test builds point to it being fairly well balanced* and a lot of fun to play but that's just me.:smallbiggrin:

* It's truly amazing the number of features you have to pile onto a class to compensate for the lost spellcasting. Pretty much any one of these abilities would be powerful enough on their own for a full 10 level PrC that fully advanced spellcasting.

Mongoose87
2010-02-22, 08:12 PM
Well that's... ummm. Hmmm. That's certainly something. What, I'm not quite sure. :smallwink:

GoC
2010-02-22, 08:35 PM
Well that's... ummm. Hmmm. That's certainly something. What, I'm not quite sure. :smallwink:
I presume that means you can't evaluate balance?
Could you evaluate the wording then? Is it clear enough?
Ideas for a good name?

lvl 1 sharnian
2010-02-22, 08:40 PM
Mage Ascendant? He is so good at using his current spells that he does not need higher level spells.

btw as far as I can see, it doesn't grant CL increases so finishing this class means you are on par with paladins and rangers CL-wise so forget punching through SR, using the ability to ignore the AMF, blasting, or round/level buffs

GoC
2010-02-22, 08:51 PM
Mage Ascendant? He is so good at using his current spells that he does not need higher level spells.
Pretty much.


btw as far as I can see, it doesn't grant CL increases so finishing this class means you are on par with paladins and rangers CL-wise so forget punching through SR, using the ability to ignore the AMF, blasting, or round/level buffs
Punching through SR will require you to use one of those huge number of spell slots to fire off an Assay Spell Resistance.
The ability to ignore AMFs is weak on purpose as it's part of the anti-mage slayer ability (AMFs made via an antimagic item have a caster level of only 11 which means most of his buffs survive).
His blasting is slightly better than a pure spellcaster of the same level due to 3 spells/round and metamagic.
Buffs can be handled by either using free metamagic to extend them or simply using the huge number of spell slots/day that you get (seriously, a sorceror 10/PWNAGE 10 gets around 18 5th level spells per day) to spam persistent versions (though feat starvation IS a problem).

Mongoose87
2010-02-22, 08:53 PM
Yeah, the CL thing is an issue- I'd consider making it stack with other classes for purposes of determining CL.

Hmmm. This could be a very effective blaster. Maybe. I can think of some very funky Epic-Level uses of it, but you would never get Epic WinSpellcasting. Epic's made to be broken, though.

lvl 1 sharnian
2010-02-22, 08:57 PM
Interestingly enough, although he can't cast 9th level spells, he can still get 9th level spells; he just needs to take that epic feat that gives you one higher spell slot and Extra spell will give it more and more. Since it's epic by now, might as well tack on Arcane Thesis and Incantrix

Melayl
2010-02-22, 08:57 PM
Oh, the wording is really quite clear. I think its the balance thats not quite right. I'll try to be gentle...

Realistically speaking, I don't think any mage would take any PrC other than this one. I mean, really. With this (if you do nothing else, change the name!) class you get:

Free metamagic cost reduction EVERY ROUND

A free EPIC casting feat (which lets you cast an extra quickened spell each round -- which is basically free since you get free metamagic reduction -- and all spells are automatically quickened at 9th level)

An unbelievable +10 to your casting stat (untyped, so it stacks with EVERYTHING else)

Extra spells for EVERY spell level you can cast (which is basically like +1 level to your existing casting class, although you don't get any higher level spells)

You then get to DOUBLE all of your spells (and even change them out as a prepared caster)

Then you get to turn ANY spell you know into an AT WILL SLA, and change that choice every 24 hours

Then you get basic immunity to some of the few things that can hinder a caster (the mage slayer feats and Antimagic areas)

By this point, getting to cast a quickened spell as an immediate action is almost negligible in compareson

All your spells become automatically silent and stilled (with, as written, no increase in spell level -- which wouldn't much matter, since you get the free metamagic reduction)

Then, to top it all off, you get your primary casting stat bonus (as written, that's the +10) to ALL of your other stats (even if you meant the Modifier, that's still incredibly powerful. Even if it is an enhancement bonus.

In truth, what caster would choose otherwise? Yes, you don't get higher level spells. But really, do you need 9th level spells when you have all of this? You have an interesting theme here, but I'm really not sure what to do to fix the power issue.

Melayl

Temotei
2010-02-22, 09:05 PM
PWNAGE
General
Abilities: The most important one will be whatever the primary spellcasting stat is. Con is also fairly important.
Hitdie: d4

Good, although your abilities section has some funky wording. It seems like you're trying to be concise and you ended up being too short with it.


Prerequisites
Able to cast 3rd level spells
Eschew Materials and Quicken Spell feats

I don't like the big focus on Quicken Spell with Multispell and improved multispell, but I suppose...


Class Skills
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), and Spellcraft (Int)
2+int modifier Skill Points per level

Don't capitalize "skill points" unless you're going to capitalize that whole line. Your formatting is a bit off as well. Do this: "The PWNAGE’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier."


Class Features
Limitations
You cannot cast 9th level spells while a member of this prestige class.

Ouch. That's a huge burn on top of the missing caster levels, which are extremely hurtful.


Suberb Metamagic
If you are a spontaneous spellcaster you get a number of levels of "free" metamagic equal to your level in PWNAGE per round. These can be used to reduce the level cost of any metamagic to a minimum of 1. Applying metamagic to spells no longer increases their casting time to a full-round action.
If you are a prepared spellcaster then you may reduce metamagic costs to a minimum of 1 when preparing spells but you may not cast spells in a round whose total "free" metamagic is greater than your level in PWNAGE.

For example a Sorcerer 10/PWNAGE 3 could cast a quickened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell) fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm) and a maximized (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#maximizeSpell) fireball (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm) in one round using two level 5 slots (this would use up all her free metamagic for that round), but could not cast an Empowered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#empowerSpell), Extended (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#extendSpell), Ice Storm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/iceStorm.htm) as each of those metamagic modifications cannot be mitigated down lower than 1 and as a result the whole spell would take up a 6th level slot.

Cool.


Multispell bonus feat
You gain multispell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#multispell) as a bonus feat.


+X int/cha/wis
You choose whether this bonus will be a bonus to int, cha or wis when entering this class. It is an untyped bonus.

Why not inherent?


Extra Spells
You gain 1 extra spell slot of every level you can cast. This increases to 2 at level 6 and 3 at level 9. If you later gain access to higher level spell slots then your bonus spell slots from Extra Spells applies to them too.

Good. I'd say even more spell slots would be in order.


Dispel Resistance
You add your PWNAGE level to the DC of attempts to dispel spells cast by you.

Eh. It's helpful, but situational.


Refreshed
Once per day you may replenish your spells/spell slots just as if you had rested for the day. Obviously, if you are a prepared spellcaster you may change your spell selection as desired upon doing this.

This would be crazy if you actually had spells of a decent level. Seeing as you're stuck with however many spell levels you had when you entered the class, you get a bunch of crappy spells, some good ones, and some really good ones again, but no replacements for the lost caster levels.

Also, by RAW, this means you have to rest eight hours and then prepare your spells for an hour.


Practiced
Once per day you may pick one spell you can cast. You gain that spell as an at will SLA for the next 24 hours. If the spell has an xp cost or a costly material component you must pay that price every time you use the SLA.

Capitalize XP or spell it out. Spell-like abilities shouldn't be shortened to SLA in a class. That's for informal things.


Mage-slayer Slayer
The Pierce Magical Protection, Pierce Magical Concealment and Mage Slayer feats do not work when used against you.
In addition, spells you cast can resist being suppressed by an antimagic field with a caster level check (DC=10+CL of antimagic field). If the spell has a duration longer than instantaneous then you may add the bonus you get from Dispel Resistance to the result of this check.

Arbitrary defenses against a character's style? That's just mean. I do like the resistance to antimagic field though. Spells should be italicized, by the way.


Purely Mental
All spells you cast are automatically silent and stilled.

Kind of random, but okay.


Flexibility
If you are a spontaneous spellcaster then you gain one more spell known for each of the levels of spells you can cast (eg. a sorceror 6/PWNAGE 8 would gain 1 1st, 1 2nd and 1 3rd level spell known).
If you are a prepared spellcaster then you gain one extra spell slot per spell level. You may cast any spell you know from these extra spell slots even if you haven't prepared it just as if you were a spontaneous spellcaster.

That part, by RAW, means if you can cast fourth level spells, you get four spell slots you can put anywhere (most likely in the fourth level spells). Change it to "...you gain one extra spell slot in each spell level you are able to cast."


Quick Thinker
All spells you cast are automatically quickened, for the price of one level of your Superb Metamagic ability instead of the usual four, whether you like it or not (this would decrease the number of spells you could cast in a round but you get another multispell at this level so it stays the same).
This means that the very act of casting a spell uses up one level of free metamagic for that round.

Fine, I suppose.


Not so fragile
You add your int/cha/wis bonus (depending on which you chose) as an enhancement bonus to all your other stats (str, con, dex, ect.).

Yikes. Beware of munchkins. I don't even like ability score increases. Maybe a cooler capstone would be...cooler. :smallcool:


I have a suspicion that the wording is a bit unclear.

In some places.


Mage-slayer Slayer doesn't appear to fit the theme.

Indeed.


I haven't a clue how to evaluate whether or not it's balanced.

It's horribly underpowered compared to a normal spellcaster.

What tier do you want this to be, approximately? That will help with critique.

EDIT: By the gods, six ninja posts.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-22, 09:06 PM
I believe it was in response to my suggestion that nothing is worth losing X spellcasting progression levels (I believe the number I threw out there was 5). This is a pretty interesting attempt to make a class that would.

Really, it's on the right track, though some things are a bit too broken. Many Spell ranks highly on that list.

GoC
2010-02-22, 09:19 PM
Why not inherent?
Firstly, thank you for this post! It was REALLY helpful!:smallcool::smallbiggrin::smallsmile:
I've implemented most of your suggestions.
It's not inherent because then the +10 int wouldn't make up for the lost DC due to having low level spells. Though I suppose it might be a good idea to lose a little power in exchange for verisimilitude.


Good. I'd say even more spell slots would be in order.
How many?


Also, by RAW, this means you have to rest eight hours and then prepare your spells for an hour.
Can you help me with this wording then? Not sure how to modify it.


Arbitrary defenses against a character's style? That's just mean. I do like the resistance to antimagic field though. Spells should be italicized, by the way.
Yeah but that's a bit of a weak level and I need some other ability there (it does sortof fit the idea of being a reliable caster than can hang around near the front line without having to fear for his life). Suggestions?


Kind of random, but okay.
It has the advantage of allowing casting while wearing armor or in a grapple.


Yikes. Beware of munchkins. I don't even like ability score increases. Maybe a cooler capstone would be...cooler. :smallcool:
Like what?


What tier do you want this to be, approximately? That will help with critique.
Tiers 1-3 are fine but 2 is what I'm aiming for.

Melayl: You've listed the class' abilities and said they're overpowered. But I don't actually see any examples of situations where they can be overpowered.

Heh, I have three people who say they can't evaluate it, one that says it's terribly overpowered and one that says it's terribly underpowered.

Fortuna
2010-02-22, 09:58 PM
I can just see entering this class very late, and thereby getting eigth level spells and a good chunk of this class... *shudders*.

I can't see taking the whole class, though, because that gives up sixth through ninth spells. Giving up ninth level spells for four or five levels in it, though, nets you a hell of a lot, and I would say is about even. And I can just see some serious cheese with Archivists getting spells earlier than intended and then jumping into this class with them... *shudders*

GoC
2010-02-22, 10:15 PM
I can just see entering this class very late, and thereby getting eigth level spells and a good chunk of this class... *shudders*
Hmm... good point. I should probably move multispell up to level 6 or do as it doesn't even do anything until then unless you're entering really late.

Milskidasith
2010-02-22, 10:44 PM
This is... I don't even know. It's beyond my level to judge something like this. Going through it fully, you get a lot, but I don't know if it's worth... well, all spell levels. I'm curious as to just how high of a spell level you can get and take this class fully... with some cheese, you could probably get 6th levels, and all the goodies might make up for it, but I don't know... this hurts. Outside of absurdly optimized builds, it's probably more powerful than straight wizard, but I don't know how good it is if you are optimized.

DracoDei
2010-02-22, 10:54 PM
So, what I seem to hear you saying, Milskidasith, is that you are going to be play-testing this at the soonest available opportunity? :smallbiggrin:

Milskidasith
2010-02-22, 10:57 PM
So, what I seem to hear you saying, Milskidasith, is that you are going to be play-testing this at the soonest available opportunity? :smallbiggrin:

I don't know of anybody who would allow this. I could playtest it, but who would run it?

DracoDei
2010-02-22, 11:02 PM
GM and make this the BBEG? Or do you not GM, or GM for players who don't like alpha-testing stuff that is this nuts?

Milskidasith
2010-02-22, 11:10 PM
GM and make this the BBEG? Or do you not GM, or GM for players who don't like alpha-testing stuff that is this nuts?

I am not a good GM. In practice, I'm probably not an exceptional player, either, and I'm definitely not the best optimizer around. I'm just good at noting when things seem OP or UP relative to what I know is good, and have too much free time.

industrious
2010-02-22, 11:19 PM
In a gestalt game, this is very very scary. Otherwise, it isn't that bad due to the lack of CLs to make use of all the shiny abilities.

Flickerdart
2010-02-22, 11:23 PM
What kind of action is Refreshed? What kind of an ability is it (Ex, Su, SLA)?

GoC
2010-02-23, 03:31 AM
What kind of an ability is it (Ex, Su, SLA)?
Abilities default to Ex if nothing is specified.

DracoDei: A blaster BBEG? That's going to be very short and very bloody. A straight wizard 11 can do 36d6 damage (twinned scorching ray+quickened scorching ray) per round without any optimization at all (for comparison, a wizard 7/PWNAGE 4 does only 24d6 damage but can do it more times per day).

Now that I think about it I've realized that PWNAGE is behind a straight wizard in damage until you get Quick Thinker.

DracoDei
2010-02-23, 10:00 AM
DracoDei: A blaster BBEG?
Who said anything about Blaster? I was thinking Batman... :smallamused:

Zeta Kai
2010-02-23, 12:24 PM
1) This is INSANE.

2) I like that. You didn't take the easy route of making a PrC, & actually made something cool & unique. It turns the standard caster advancement on its head.

3) For a better name, I propose the Meta-Mage.

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-23, 12:48 PM
If you leave this class at Level 4 (once you have refreshed) you can still get 8th level spells, and then use them all over again.

Hell a 1 level dip costs you 9th level spells, but lets you Quicken all your 7th level spells.

As mentioned earlier this is the ultimate Gestalt PrC.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-23, 12:50 PM
Yeah, there is no way in hell this is balanced in Gestalt. It's worse than the Warhulk in that regard.

Melayl
2010-02-23, 04:00 PM
Melayl: You've listed the class' abilities and said they're overpowered. But I don't actually see any examples of situations where they can be overpowered.

I was quite tired when I reviewed and posted (I really shouldn't do that). I'll try to take a look again when I have time and really try to flesh out my reasons then.

GoC
2010-02-23, 04:51 PM
Yeah, there is no way in hell this is balanced in Gestalt. It's worse than the Warhulk in that regard.
Indeed, it's definitely not for Gestalt.

Kobold-Bard: I think you mean a 3 level dip not 1 level dip.:smalltongue:

I still need a better capstone though! I had this idea:

Buff Routine (Su)
You can pick a set of targeted, persistable, spells you can cast with spell levels totalling no more than 10. You, your familiar/animal companion and any creatures you summon gain the effects of these spells. Changing your Buff Routine takes 10 minutes of concentration.
Exception: You cannot polymorph a creature into another creature of greater CR using Buff Routine.

Is it better or worse than the original?

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-23, 05:41 PM
...Kobold-Bard: I think you mean a 3 level dip not 1 level dip.:smalltongue:...

Upon re-reading you may be right. But since you can't get 9th Level Spells anyway, a three level dip is perfectly acceptable.

Knaight
2010-02-23, 05:56 PM
Mage-slayer Slayer (Ex)
The Pierce Magical Protection, Pierce Magical Concealment and Mage Slayer feats do not work when used against you.
In addition, spells you cast can resist being suppressed by an antimagic field with a caster level check (DC=10+CL of antimagic field). If the spell has a duration longer than instantaneous then you may add the bonus you get from Dispel Resistance to the result of this check.

Unslain Magi is a better name here.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-02-23, 06:56 PM
Broken in Gestalt, although I'm sure you weren't trying to balance for that. Even without 9th level spells... +10 to primary casting stat and all those other goodies? Fair trade, I'd say, especially since 8th level spells are just as powerful.

But I have a question about the Limitations. If a character gains a level that would give them 9th level spells, do they lose the PrC, or do they simply not gain the 9th level spell slots? Or perhaps are they not even allowed to take that level at all?

GoC
2010-02-23, 07:16 PM
But I have a question about the Limitations. If a character gains a level that would give them 9th level spells, do they lose the PrC, or do they simply not gain the 9th level spell slots?
The latter.

DracoDei
2010-02-23, 07:23 PM
I would think they simply don't get the slots... maybe they get them as 8th levels instead? (Ninja-ed)

Drolyt
2010-02-23, 08:52 PM
I would think they simply don't get the slots... maybe they get them as 8th levels instead? (Ninja-ed)

Actually the way he has it worded, he would get the 9th level slots and not be able to cast them. Depending on how your DM interprets what a 9th level spell is you might be able to cast metamagicked spells in those slots.

As for balance: It's all pretty much underpowered compared to what a full spellcaster could do until you get to the capstone. It would require a little work, but that capstone is super easy to break. Ignore that for now. First, do the follow:
1. Increase Caster Level. It doesn't appear to at the moment, and it really needs to.
2. Allow the Superb Metamagic ability to decrease the combined cost of all metamagic feats cast on a spell to 1. For your example you would be able to cast that empowered extended Ice Storm. If you don't allow this then your class is essentially a sucky Incantatrix. Sure you don't need to be that broken, but even allowing the metamagic cheese won't make up for losing 9th level spells.
3. Try to make the abilities more backended. As it is now it's almost worth it as a dip, maybe Sorc 16 Meta-Mage

Okay, to fix Not So Fragile, why not allow your Int/Wis/Cha Modifier to apply in all rolls, so if you made a ranged touch attack you would use your Int/Wis/Cha instead of Dex, to determine hit points you use Int/Wis/Cha instead of Con etc.

Applying my suggestions, the worst you could do is take a single 4th level spell and apply 11 levels worth of metamagic for the cost of one. Still weaker than Incantatrix, so I'd say it's balanced.

Edit: I'll think on it and report back later with more. The anti mage slayer thing doesn't really fit conceptually.

GoC
2010-02-23, 09:22 PM
Still weaker than Incantatrix, so I'd say it's balanced.
:smallbiggrin:

1&2 I'll think about. 3 is the opposite of my opinion (it seems quite backended to me).

How could the capstone be broken?

Thanks for your feedback.:smallbiggrin:

Drolyt
2010-02-24, 06:18 AM
:smallbiggrin:

1&2 I'll think about. 3 is the opposite of my opinion (it seems quite backended to me).

How could the capstone be broken?

Thanks for your feedback.:smallbiggrin:

You know what, I don't think the capstone is actually that bad now that I think about it. My suggestion should actually be stronger much of the time. You might be right about 3, but I still say this class is best taken as your 17th level of Sorcerer then proceeded into epic levels. I still say change the capstone to what I suggested, cause right now its rather too much math.

GoC
2010-02-24, 10:19 AM
You know what, I don't think the capstone is actually that bad now that I think about it. My suggestion should actually be stronger much of the time. You might be right about 3, but I still say this class is best taken as your 17th level of Sorcerer then proceeded into epic levels.
In epic levels (which are completely broken btw) it's all about Epic Spellcasting which this class can't use. I'd advise against allowing this PrC in an epic or Gestalt game.


I still say change the capstone to what I suggested, cause right now its rather too much math.
You capstone is quite a bit more powerful than my idea. You can easily have an Int in the mid 40s by then thanks to your +10 Int. Compare this to the roughly 24-30 con you'd have with the current capstone. I'd like him to be able to carry things, survive a round in melee and beat up mooks should he want to, not replace the party barbarian!:smalltongue:
Also, it seems to me that recording a simple +16 enhancement bonus to your stats on your character sheet is simpler than adding an extra value to some rolls (because adding it to all D20 rolls would be broken). You'd calculate your Con bonus, AC, ect. once just like you would normally.

Drolyt
2010-02-24, 10:34 AM
In epic levels (which are completely broken btw) it's all about Epic Spellcasting which this class can't use. I'd advise against allowing this PrC in an epic or Gestalt game.


You capstone is quite a bit more powerful than my idea. You can easily have an Int in the mid 40s by then thanks to your +10 Int. Compare this to the roughly 24-30 con you'd have with the current capstone. I'd like him to be able to carry things, survive a round in melee and beat up mooks should he want to, not replace the party barbarian!:smalltongue:
Also, it seems to me that recording a simple +16 enhancement bonus to your stats on your character sheet is simpler than adding an extra value to some rolls (because adding it to all D20 rolls would be broken). You'd calculate your Con bonus, AC, ect. once just like you would normally.

There are certain situations where your version is stronger than mine (generally if the character's stats were already godly) but you're probably right. I'm having trouble trying to figure out how to balance this class since it is completely different from how spellcasters normally operate. I'm fairly certain it's still quite a bit weaker than even an unoptimized full caster though.

Dacia Brabant
2010-02-24, 11:27 AM
You have Multispell listed as a bonus feat twice: at 5th level and 9th level. I'd assume that the second one is supposed to be Improved Multispell but that's at 6th level.

I'd probably recommend requiring arcane spells rather than just spells, to prevent extreme brokenness when combined with Ur-Priest, especially with early entry tricks.

GoC
2010-02-24, 12:45 PM
You have Multispell listed as a bonus feat twice: at 5th level and 9th level. I'd assume that the second one is supposed to be Improved Multispell but that's at 6th level.
You can take Multispell as many times as you like.


I'd probably recommend requiring arcane spells rather than just spells, to prevent extreme brokenness when combined with Ur-Priest, especially with early entry tricks.
Ur-Priest is completely broken anyway, in fact, taking levels in Meta Mage seems like downgrade compared to taking more Ur-Priest levels.:smallwink:


I'm fairly certain it's still quite a bit weaker than even an unoptimized full caster though.
What tier would you guess at? I was aiming at 2 (which IS below a full caster).

Roderick_BR
2010-02-24, 12:50 PM
Unslain Magi (Ex)
The Pierce Magical Protection, Pierce Magical Concealment and Mage Slayer feats do not work when used against you.

In other words, whenever someone gains some anti-caster stuff, casters must gain anti-anti-caster stuff (searing, coldpiercing, shielded casting, asay spell resistance...). We can't let anyone other than our precious casters have fun, right? :smallwink:

I won't comment on the 10 lost caster levels, or how it'll be a few levels dip. A lot of people will probably do it already and explain in details.

Drolyt
2010-02-24, 01:02 PM
You can take Multispell as many times as you like.


Ur-Priest is completely broken anyway, in fact, taking levels in Meta Mage seems like downgrade compared to taking more Ur-Priest levels.:smallwink:


What tier would you guess at? I was aiming at 2 (which IS below a full caster).

I think it would probably be strong 3rd tier, but 2nd tier would mean equal to Sorcerer. Well, maybe low 2nd tier, since I'm of the opinion that the Sorcerer is the strongest of the 2nd tier classes. Seriously though, straight Sorcerer is better, and Sorcerer + full casting PRC with good abilities is way above this. That's not necessarily a bad thing though, at least your class is playable.

GoC
2010-02-24, 01:10 PM
In other words, whenever someone gains some anti-caster stuff, casters must gain anti-anti-caster stuff (searing, coldpiercing, shielded casting, asay spell resistance...). We can't let anyone other than our precious casters have fun, right? :smallwink:
I did mention that I'm not very happy with the ability and I dislike the idea of anti-anti-things as much as the next man. I'll welcome any alternative ideas for that slot.:smallsigh:
However, I don't think this caster is contributing to the mage-fighter power disparity. Metamagicked spells are good for damage dealing and mob killing not the battlefield control, make-all-my-allies-redundant and break-the-game spells that a straight wizard would get.
Is he encroaching on the fighter's territory (brick and damage dealer)? When you get to the capstone I'd say definitely. This may be a problem but at level 16 doorstops are redundant anyway.:smallbiggrin:


I won't comment on the 10 lost caster levels, or how it'll be a few levels dip. A lot of people will probably do it already and explain in details.
I've been mentally trying out dips and... they don't seem that bad actually. Perhaps an example would help illustrate the point?:smallconfused:

Dacia Brabant
2010-02-24, 01:42 PM
You can take Multispell as many times as you like.

Ah, so you can. I'll confess I've never looked all that closely at Epic feats.


Ur-Priest is completely broken anyway, in fact, taking levels in Meta Mage seems like downgrade compared to taking more Ur-Priest levels.:smallwink:

True that Ur-Priest is already broken, but I dispute that this PrC weakens them. A Savage Bard 3/Ur-Priest 8/Meta-Mage 9 gets everything this class has to offer except the capstone and can cast 8th level spells, or 7th level spells with the capstone. And presumably can combine the metamagic reduction with Divine Metamagic. And reselect and restore its memorized spells, so persisting every buff and summon spell it has access to then rememorizing all offensive and healing spells to use the same day.

Yeah I guess the solution is simply to ban them.

GoC
2010-02-24, 02:52 PM
Yeah I guess the solution is simply to ban them.
Yeah. Compare the brokenness of Savage Bard 3/Ur-Priest 8/Meta-Mage 9 (level 20) with Savage Bard 3/Ur-Priest 9 (level 12).

Drolyt
2010-02-24, 03:33 PM
Yeah. Compare the brokenness of Savage Bard 3/Ur-Priest 8/Meta-Mage 9 (level 20) with Savage Bard 3/Ur-Priest 9 (level 12).

I'm going to be very clear, since a lot of people don't seem to get this. Showing that homebrew material can be broken with material that is by consensus already broken and known to break things is not a valid argument about balance. It's like saying that Fireball is broken because an Incantatrix can one shot a deity with it. I'm certain you can pull of some crap by combining this class with ur-priest, but ur-priest is one of the most broken classes ever created. So don't worry about it. Balance the class for non-munchkined builds. The most important thing is that the class is fun to play.

GoC
2010-02-24, 03:43 PM
I'm going to be very clear, since a lot of people don't seem to get this. Showing that homebrew material can be broken with material that is by consensus already broken and known to break things is not a valid argument about balance. It's like saying that Fireball is broken because an Incantatrix can one shot a deity with it. I'm certain you can pull of some crap by combining this class with ur-priest, but ur-priest is one of the most broken classes ever created.
Thanks. As the creator of the class I can't really say that to people who are trying to help me.


The most important thing is that the class is fun to play.
Do you think it will be? It feels fun but in an actual game...

Anyone want to offer any more advice or should I submit it to the Compedium?

Drolyt
2010-02-24, 04:09 PM
Thanks. As the creator of the class I can't really say that to people who are trying to help me.


Do you think it will be? It feels fun but in an actual game...

Anyone want to offer any more advice or should I submit it to the Compedium?

It might be fun, although I would almost certainly rather play a straight spellcaster. What's fun about spellcasters is the sheer number of options they get as they advance in levels. With this class you don't ever get access to new options, the old ones just become stronger.

GoC
2010-02-24, 05:55 PM
Which is better the current capstone or this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7949950#post7949950) suggestion?

Drolyt
2010-02-24, 06:33 PM
Which is better the current capstone or this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7949950#post7949950) suggestion?

Can't you pretty much do that already if you know persistant spell and are high enough level? I like the original capstone better.

Mythestopheles
2010-02-24, 08:40 PM
First off, I think this is a great idea.


Limitations
You cannot cast 9th level spells while a member of this prestige class.
This seems a bit strange. This only applies through broken classes/shenanigans, or in epic levels. and even so. in epic levels they can pick up epic spellcasting and gain tenth-level spells.


Suberb Metamagic (Ex)
If you are a spontaneous spellcaster you get a number of levels of "free" metamagic equal to your Meta-Mage level per round. These can be used to reduce the level cost of any metamagic to a minimum of 1. Applying metamagic to spells no longer increases their casting time to a full-round action.
If you are a prepared spellcaster then you may reduce metamagic costs to a minimum of 1 when preparing spells but you may not cast spells in a round whose total "free" metamagic is greater than your Meta-Mage level.

These both seem to do the same thing, maybe merge them together into one description?


Multispell bonus feat (Ex)
You gain multispell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#multispell) as a bonus feat.
I assume this is even if they don't have the prequisites? you should probably specify.


Practiced (Ex)
Once per day you may pick one spell you can cast. You gain that spell as an at will spell like ability for the next 24 hours. If the spell has an XP cost or a costly material component you must pay that price every time you use the spell like ability.
Personally I would limit the level, maybe 1-2 levels lower than the highest level spell? I'd do this because, as is a character will choose their best spell and use it all day, everyday.



Unslain Magi doesn't appear to fit the theme.
Just brainstorming names here. focused mage, agile mage, defensive mage, mage defender, protected mage, unorthodox mage? any of these make any sense with the flavor?


The capstone isn't very interesting.
Yeah that is an issue. What about an ability that lets him grab spells from other classes spell lists?

Hopefully I was some help to you.

GoC
2010-02-24, 09:32 PM
First off, I think this is a great idea.
Thanks!:smallsmile:


This seems a bit strange. This only applies through broken classes/shenanigans, or in epic levels. and even so. in epic levels they can pick up epic spellcasting and gain tenth-level spells.
It's to prevent the obvious Wizard 17/Meta Mage 3. The main disadvantage of being a Meta Mage is the lack of high level spells.


These both seem to do the same thing, maybe merge them together into one description?
I haven't yet figured out how to phrase it in such a way that it makes sense for both spontaneous and prepared spellcasters.


I assume this is even if they don't have the prequisites? you should probably specify.
Done.


Personally I would limit the level, maybe 1-2 levels lower than the highest level spell? I'd do this because, as is a character will choose their best spell and use it all day, everyday.
That's the idea! At that point you're a total of 8 spell levels behind. An at will spell of that level isn't going to break anything but will allow you to Cloudkill all day long.:smallbiggrin:


Just brainstorming names here. focused mage, agile mage, defensive mage, mage defender, protected mage, unorthodox mage? any of these make any sense with the flavor?
Yeah but the problem is more the ability than the name. Though protected Mage does sound cool...:smallcool:


Yeah that is an issue. What about an ability that lets him grab spells from other classes spell lists?
That might be a good idea though the phrasing could be tricky...
If you cast divine spells you get access to the cleric and druid spell lists and if you cast arcane spells then you get access to the Sorc/Wiz and Bard spell lists?
Does anyone know if this could be abused?


Hopefully I was some help to you.
You were, thanks.


Can't you pretty much do that already if you know persistant spell and are high enough level? I like the original capstone better.
It would generally be for the Summoned monsters. Which... results in Summon Monster spam (3-12 summons per round) which is a bad thing.:smallsigh:

DracoDei
2010-02-25, 12:11 AM
I'm going to be very clear, since a lot of people don't seem to get this. Showing that homebrew material can be broken with material that is by consensus already broken and known to break things is not a valid argument about balance. It's like saying that Fireball is broken because an Incantatrix can one shot a deity with it. I'm certain you can pull of some crap by combining this class with ur-priest, but ur-priest is one of the most broken classes ever created.Thanks. As the creator of the class I can't really say that to people who are trying to help me.

I my opinion you can... you just need to be careful to be polite about it.

GoC
2010-02-26, 04:44 PM
Semi-bumping because I still need an answer to this:


Yeah that is an issue. What about an ability that lets him grab spells from other classes spell lists?
That might be a good idea though the phrasing could be tricky...
If you cast divine spells you get access to the cleric and druid spell lists and if you cast arcane spells then you get access to the Sorc/Wiz and Bard spell lists?
Does anyone know if this could be abused?

Drolyt
2010-02-26, 04:56 PM
Semi-bumping because I still need an answer to this:

It would be very hard to abuse. I'm not certain it's impossible though.

Melayl
2010-02-27, 03:30 PM
Ok, I've rested and I have time to do this, so I'll try to explain why I think this is too powerful of a class. In no particular order:



Suberb Metamagic (Ex)
If you are a spontaneous spellcaster you get a number of levels of "free" metamagic equal to your Meta-Mage level per round. These can be used to reduce the level cost of any metamagic to a minimum of 1. Applying metamagic to spells no longer increases their casting time to a full-round action.
If you are a prepared spellcaster then you may reduce metamagic costs to a minimum of 1 when preparing spells but you may not cast spells in a round whose total "free" metamagic is greater than your Meta-Mage level.

Extra Spells (Ex)
You gain 1 extra spell slot of every level you can cast. This increases to 2 at level 6 and 3 at level 9. If you later gain access to higher level spell slots then your bonus spell slots from Extra Spells applies to them too.

Refreshed (Ex)
Once per day as a full-round action you may replenish your spells/spell slots just as if you had rested for the day. Obviously, if you are a prepared spellcaster you may change your spell selection as desired upon doing this as long as you've already got your new spell list written down (no ten minute pauses in the middle of combat please!).

Flexibility (Ex)
If you are a spontaneous spellcaster then you gain one (increasing to two at 10th level) more spell known for each of the levels of spells you can cast. eg. a sorceror 6/Meta-Mage 8 would gain 1 1st, 1 2nd and 1 3rd level spell known.
If you are a prepared spellcaster then you gain one (increasing to two at 10th level) extra spell slot in each spell level you are able to cast.. You may cast any spell you know from these extra spell slots even if you haven't prepared it just as if you were a spontaneous spellcaster.
Ok, I'll tackle these first. One of the main restrictions on casters is limited resources. They only get so many spells to cast each day, and only know so many spells. All four of these break past that limitation, some worse than others.

The worst of the four is Refreshed. You're able to double your spells per day. Double. As a mere full round action (completely breaking the "need a full hour to prepare spells" thing, at least). If you're a wizard, you can completely revamp your spell selection to deal with anything you encounter. This ability alone would completely break the class, in my opinion.

Superb Metamagic also breaks the limits on casters. Now they don't need to use up their smaller number of high-level slots to enhance spells, basically giving you free spell slots. It doesn't completely erase the level increase, but you can end up getting 3-4 enhancements on a spell for the cost of only one. Every round, for free. Again, this is a really potent ability.

Extra spells isn't as broken, but it is still too powerful. You're still exceeding the limit placed on resources. It wouldn't be as bad if the higher level spells didn't increase as much as the lower level spells. As a solo ability in a PrC it would be passable, but definitely not in conjunction with the rest of this class.

Flexibility would not be too bad as a solo ability either, but it still exceeds the resource limits (spells known for sorcerers and spells per day for wizards) and is way too much in conjunction with the rest of the class. Wizards really make out well with Extra spells and Flexibility, gaining 5 extra spell slots per level, two of each are spontaneous (and with the wizard's spells known, that alone is too powerful).


+X int/cha/wis (Ex)
You choose whether this bonus will be a bonus to int, cha or wis when entering this class. It is an untyped bonus.
This is alot to give any class. With casters, it becomes even worse. They gain extra spells per level, the DC for their spells increases, and (for wizards) they get a boatload of bonus skill slots. Plus, since it is untyped, it will stack with the +6 enhancement bonus they can get, and the +1/4 levels (+5 total) that they get for character level. That's a +21 potential to their casting stat. It's just too much, especially (again) with the other abilities granted by this class.

A wizard 10/meta-mage 10 would have (assuming a base 16 Intelligence, +10 from the class, +6 enhancement, +4 from character level):
11 cantrips
13 1st level
12 2nd level
11 3rd level
11 4th level
10 5th level (which would all double with Refreshed)

A 20th level wizard (assuming that same base Intelligence, enhancement, and character level increases) would have:
4 cantrips
6 1st level
5 2nd level
5 3rd level
5 4th level
5 5th level
4 each 6th - 9th

That give the wizard/meta 68 spells per day (before Refreshed). The straight wizard will have 46. It exceeds the limit on daily resources by a huge amount.


Protected Mage (Ex)
The Pierce Magical Protection, Pierce Magical Concealment and Mage Slayer feats do not work when used against you.
In addition, spells you cast can resist being suppressed by an antimagic field with a caster level check (DC=10+CL of antimagic field). If the spell has a duration longer than instantaneous then you may add the bonus you get from Dispel Resistance to the result of this check. I know you've said you don't like this ability, but I feel the need to say again that it basically provides complete protection from the few ways to take down casters.


Multispell bonus feat (Ex)
You gain multispell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#multispell) as a bonus feat even if you do not meet the prerequisites.

Improved Multispell (Ex)
Once per round you may cast a quickened spell you have prepared as an immediate action. This counts against the number of quickened spells you can cast per round (if used when it's not your turn then subtract 1 from the number of quickened spells you can cast next round).

Quick Thinker (Ex)
All standard action spells you cast are automatically quickened, for the price of one level of your Superb Metamagic ability instead of the usual four, whether you like it or not (this would decrease the number of standard action spells you could cast in a round but you get another multispell at this level so it stays the same).
This means that the very act of casting a spell uses up one level of free metamagic for that round. Beyond the fact that this is an EPIC feat, this breaks the other limit on casters: actions per round. By the time you're a 9th level meta, you're casting 3 spells per round. That's more power than any other class can bring in one round, and past broken (especially with what the rest of the class can do).


Purely Mental (Ex)
All spells you cast are automatically silent and stilled. So now your mage can cast in full plate with no penalty. Not to mention that you can't keep him from casting by Silencing him or binding him. You HAVE to knock him out or kill him now. Especially since Protected Mage lets him cast in an Antimagic zone. And, as written, the effective spell level doesn't increase, either. Too much.


Practiced (Ex)
Once per day you may pick one spell you can cast. You gain that spell as an at will spell like ability for the next 24 hours. If the spell has an XP cost or a costly material component you must pay that price every time you use the spell like ability. This is totally broken. You can cast one spell you know, of any level you have access to, at will. And you can change the spell each day. Let's do the math, here. Even assuming taking 8 hours per day to rest, you can cast the spell for 16 hours a day. 16 hours/day x 60 minutes/hour x 10 rounds/minute = 9600 castings per day.

Let's use Wall of Stone (5th level) as an example. That wiz 10/meta 10 would get 50 square feet at 2 inches thick per casting. That's a total of 480,000 square feet in 16 hours. You could build a small castle in a day (you'd have to layer some of the castings to get a safe thickness...). In a few days you could have a large keep with high, thick stone walls fortifying it. Heck, in three minutes, you could have a 50x50x50 foot building with foot-thick walls.

Or Charm Person (1st level). You could convince an entire city that you're their best friend (for 10 hours). Add in a Suggestion spell to the city's leader, and suddenly they're bringing all their treasure to your new castle for "safekeeping".

Or Lesser Geas. Or Teleport. Or Dominate Person. Or Enervation. Or Color Spray. Or Wall of Iron. Or Polymorph. Or Baleful Polymorph. Or Fabricate.

A wiz 11/meta 9 gets 6th level spells. So you could Disintegrate all day. Or Flesh to stone. Or Geas. Or Mass Suggestion.

It's just way too broken. Maybe if you limited the spell level to 1st or 2nd, and limited the uses per day, and limited if/how often you could change it, it wouldn't be bad (without the rest of the abilities granted by this class).


Not so fragile (Su)
You add your int/cha/wis modifier (depending on which you chose) as an enhancement bonus to all your other stats (str, con, dex, ect.). This ability does not function while you are polymorphed into another creature (yes, I know you were looking forward to being a Huge str 50 Fire Giant but sometimes sacrifices must be made). You get (basically) a +10-13 to EVERY other stat? Come on. You're now as strong as the fighter or barbarian, and as hardy. You're as quick as the rogue, as wise as the cleric, and as personable as the bard. If you can't see that this is broken, then nothing else I say will make any difference.

Melayl

Drolyt
2010-02-27, 03:36 PM
Ok, I've rested and I have time to do this, so I'll try to explain why I think this is too powerful of a class. In no particular order:


Ok, I'll tackle these first. One of the main restrictions on casters is limited resources. They only get so many spells to cast each day, and only know so many spells. All four of these break past that limitation, some worse than others.

The worst of the four is Refreshed. You're able to double your spells per day. Double. As a mere full round action (completely breaking the "need a full hour to prepare spells" thing, at least). If you're a wizard, you can completely revamp your spell selection to deal with anything you encounter. This ability alone would completely break the class, in my opinion.

Superb Metamagic also breaks the limits on casters. Now they don't need to use up their smaller number of high-level slots to enhance spells, basically giving you free spell slots. It doesn't completely erase the level increase, but you can end up getting 3-4 enhancements on a spell for the cost of only one. Every round, for free. Again, this is a really potent ability.

Extra spells isn't as broken, but it is still too powerful. You're still exceeding the limit placed on resources. It wouldn't be as bad if the higher level spells didn't increase as much as the lower level spells. As a solo ability in a PrC it would be passable, but definitely not in conjunction with the rest of this class.

Flexibility would not be too bad as a solo ability either, but it still exceeds the resource limits (spells known for sorcerers and spells per day for wizards) and is way too much in conjunction with the rest of the class. Wizards really make out well with Extra spells and Flexibility, gaining 5 extra spell slots per level, two of each are spontaneous (and with the wizard's spells known, that alone is too powerful).

+X int/cha/wis (Ex)
You choose whether this bonus will be a bonus to int, cha or wis when entering this class. It is an untyped bonus.

This is alot to give any class. With casters, it becomes even worse. They gain extra spells per level, the DC for their spells increases, and (for wizards) they get a boatload of bonus skill slots. Plus, since it is untyped, it will stack with the +6 enhancement bonus they can get, and the +1/4 levels (+5 total) that they get for character level. That's a +21 potential to their casting stat. It's just too much, especially (again) with the other abilities granted by this class.

A wizard 10/meta-mage 10 would have (assuming a base 16 Intelligence, +10 from the class, +6 enhancement, +4 from character level):
11 cantrips
13 1st level
12 2nd level
11 3rd level
11 4th level
10 5th level (which would all double with Refreshed)

A 20th level wizard (assuming that same base Intelligence, enhancement, and character level increases) would have:
4 cantrips
6 1st level
5 2nd level
5 3rd level
5 4th level
5 5th level
4 each 6th - 9th

That give the wizard/meta 68 spells per day (before Refreshed). The straight wizard will have 46. It exceeds the limit on daily resources by a huge amount.

I know you've said you don't like this ability, but I feel the need to say again that it basically provides complete protection from the few ways to take down casters.

Beyond the fact that this is an EPIC feat, this breaks the other limit on casters: actions per round. By the time you're a 9th level meta, you're casting 3 spells per round. That's more power than any other class can bring in one round, and past broken (especially with what the rest of the class can do).

So now your mage can cast in full plate with no penalty. Not to mention that you can't keep him from casting by Silencing him or binding him. You HAVE to knock him out or kill him now. Especially since Protected Mage lets him cast in an Antimagic zone. And, as written, the effective spell level doesn't increase, either. Too much.

This is totally broken. You can cast one spell you know, of any level you have access to, at will. And you can change the spell each day. Let's do the math, here. Even assuming taking 8 hours per day to rest, you can cast the spell for 16 hours a day. 16 hours/day x 60 minutes/hour x 10 rounds/minute = 9600 castings per day.

Let's use Wall of Stone (5th level) as an example. That wiz 10/meta 10 would get 50 square feet at 2 inches thick per casting. That's a total of 480,000 square feet in 16 hours. You could build a small castle in a day (you'd have to layer some of the castings to get a safe thickness...). In a few days you could have a large keep with high, thick stone walls fortifying it. Heck, in three minutes, you could have a 50x50x50 foot building with foot-thick walls.

Or Charm Person (1st level). You could convince an entire city that you're their best friend (for 10 hours). Add in a Suggestion spell to the city's leader, and suddenly they're bringing all their treasure to your new castle for "safekeeping".

Or Lesser Geas. Or Teleport. Or Dominate Person. Or Enervation. Or Color Spray. Or Wall of Iron. Or Polymorph. Or Baleful Polymorph. Or Fabricate.

A wiz 11/meta 9 gets 6th level spells. So you could Disintegrate all day. Or Flesh to stone. Or Geas. Or Mass Suggestion.

It's just way too broken. Maybe if you limited the spell level to 1st or 2nd, and limited the uses per day, and limited if/how often you could change it, it wouldn't be bad (without the rest of the abilities granted by this class).

You get (basically) a =10-13 to EVERY other stat? Come on. You're now as strong as the fighter or barbarian, and as hardy. You're as quick as the rogue, as wise as the cleric, and as personable as the bard. If you can't see that this is broken, then nothing else I say will make any difference.

Melayl

I have to say I disagree with this completely. You talk about breaking the limit on casting resources, but the fact is that when you only have access to 5th level spells it doesn't flipping matter. A single 9th level spell is more powerful than this whole PRC. This class is essentially a less sucky Warlock. Full Caster is still more powerful.
Edit: What the hell did you do to the formatting there? I think I fixed it.

Melayl
2010-02-27, 07:47 PM
A single 9th level spell is more powerful than the entire PrC? Hardly. Yes, 9th level spells are powerful, but they can't do everything that this class can do. Hell, Wish only grants up to a +5 Inherent bonus to stats, but this class gets +10 untyped. and +10 or more to every other flippin' stat. Wish sure as hell can't do that. No other 9th level spell (or any level spell) can do that. Wish wouldn't be able to do what Practiced does.

No 9th level spell will let you cast 3 spells per round, silenced and stilled. Or let you function in an antimagic zone, or anything else this class can do.

The straight wizard might have access to more powerful spells, but the PrC wiz can last much longer. Most players can tell you that you can do one hell of alot with 5th level and lower spells, if you do it intelligently.

However, I don't think I'll change your mind, and I know you won't change mine.

GoC
2010-02-27, 09:18 PM
First, thanks for taking the time to reply!
I asked for examples for a reason. A lot of what you say is very... subjective. You can say "X is very powerful for Y reasons, too powerful to be compensate for by lack of CL and high level spells" but without an example I can't easily evaluate the truth of the latter part of the statement.


Ok, I'll tackle these first. One of the main restrictions on casters is limited resources. They only get so many spells to cast each day, and only know so many spells. All four of these break past that limitation, some worse than others.

The worst of the four is Refreshed. You're able to double your spells per day. Double. As a mere full round action (completely breaking the "need a full hour to prepare spells" thing, at least). If you're a wizard, you can completely revamp your spell selection to deal with anything you encounter. This ability alone would completely break the class, in my opinion.
Part of the point is to have a very high limit on resources. Though in practice due to casting three spells per round instead of 1-2 it'll run out of spells at roughly the same time as a straight caster.


Superb Metamagic also breaks the limits on casters. Now they don't need to use up their smaller number of high-level slots to enhance spells, basically giving you free spell slots. It doesn't completely erase the level increase, but you can end up getting 3-4 enhancements on a spell for the cost of only one. Every round, for free. Again, this is a really potent ability.
It is indeed very potent. Though you need to bear in mind that each metamagic can only be negated down to 1. This means that if you want an empowered maximized fireball you need a 5th level slot and 3 units of free metamagic. As such let's compare a level 13 wizard with a wizard 10/Meta Mage 3.
The Meta Mage can cast an empowered maximized fireball and a quickened magic missile in a round. Total damage is 54+9d6/2+5d4+5~87. The wizard on the other hand can cast a twinned fireball and a quickened fireball for a total of 20d6+10d6~105. But while the Meta Mage does lower damage it can do it much more often (in this example twice per day vs. once per day).


This is alot to give any class. With casters, it becomes even worse. They gain extra spells per level, the DC for their spells increases, and (for wizards) they get a boatload of bonus skill slots. Plus, since it is untyped, it will stack with the +6 enhancement bonus they can get, and the +1/4 levels (+5 total) that they get for character level. That's a +21 potential to their casting stat. It's just too much, especially (again) with the other abilities granted by this class.
The Int bonus cancels out with the lower level spells as far as DCs go. The extra spell slots are needed because you will be burning through them at a much higher rate (though I still want the PrC to increase staying power).


That give the wizard/meta 68 spells per day (before Refreshed). The straight wizard will have 46. It exceeds the limit on daily resources by a huge amount.
At that level you'll be casting three spells per round. This drops your effective number of spells to around 23 compared to the wizard's 23-46 (straight wizards cast less quickened spells). But again, the class is supposed to increase endurance.


Beyond the fact that this is an EPIC feat, this breaks the other limit on casters: actions per round. By the time you're a 9th level meta, you're casting 3 spells per round. That's more power than any other class can bring in one round, and past broken (especially with what the rest of the class can do).
I need examples for this. The damage is roughly even and if you aren't looking for damage then you need some of those awesome high level spells (polymorph any object, wish, timestop, gate).


So now your mage can cast in full plate with no penalty. Not to mention that you can't keep him from casting by Silencing him or binding him. You HAVE to knock him out or kill him now.
Yep.


This is totally broken.
*snip*
Hmm...
I agree. I hadn't considered the idea of spamming them. I'll change it to a high but still reachable limit. Notice how effective an example or two is at supporting your point?:smalltongue:


You get (basically) a +10-13 to EVERY other stat? Come on. You're now as strong as the fighter or barbarian, and as hardy. You're as quick as the rogue, as wise as the cleric, and as personable as the bard. If you can't see that this is broken, then nothing else I say will make any difference.
Indeed, your stats are now almost (not quite though) as good as theirs. However, I'm not sure you realize that it isn't stats that make a character...
That barbarian? He get's an extra +10 BAB, can Rage, doesn't need to spend a feat on weapon and armor proficiency, didn't have to spend most of his feats on metamagic and has equipment optimized for killing things in melee (he also gets a few other goodies but those are minor).
Come up with a Meta Mage meleer. I'll make a ToB character that will slaughter it without even breaking sweat.


A single 9th level spell is more powerful than the entire PrC?
Not this PrC in particular but I can think of two 9th level spells that are more powerful than entire classes off the top of my head: Gate and Shapechange.

Drolyt
2010-02-27, 09:25 PM
First, thanks for taking the time to reply!
I asked for examples for a reason. A lot of what you say is very... subjective. You can say "X is very powerful for Y reasons, too powerful to be compensate for by lack of CL and high level spells" but without an example I can't easily evaluate the truth of the latter part of the statement.


Part of the point is to have a very high limit on resources. Though in practice due to casting three spells per round instead of 1-2 it'll run out of spells at roughly the same time as a straight caster.


It is indeed very potent. Though you need to bear in mind that each metamagic can only be negated down to 1. This means that if you want an empowered maximized fireball you need a 5th level slot and 3 units of free metamagic. As such let's compare a level 12 wizard with a wizard 9/Meta Mage 3.
The Meta Mage can cast an empowered maximized fireball and a quickened magic missile in a round. Total damage is 54+9d6/2+5d4+5~87. The wizard on the other hand can cast a twinned fireball and a quickened fireball for a total of 20d6+10d6~105. But while the Meta Mage does lower damage it can do it much more often (in this example twice per day vs. once per day).


The Int bonus cancels out with the lower level spells as far as DCs go. The extra spell slots are needed because you will be burning through them at a much higher rate (though I still want the PrC to increase staying power).


At that level you'll be casting three spells per round. This drops your effective number of spells to around 23 compared to the wizard's 23-46 (straight wizards cast less quickened spells). But again, the class is supposed to increase endurance.


I need examples for this. The damage is roughly even and if you aren't looking for damage then you need some of those awesome high level spells (polymorph any object, wish, timestop, gate).


Yep.


Hmm...
I agree. I hadn't considered the idea of spamming them. I'll change it to a high but still reachable limit. Notice how effective an example or two is at supporting your point?:smalltongue:


Indeed, your stats are now almost (not quite though) as good as theirs. However, I'm not sure you realize that it isn't stats that make a character...
That barbarian? He get's an extra +10 BAB, can Rage, doesn't need to spend a feat on weapon and armor proficiency, didn't have to spend most of his feats on metamagic and has equipment optimized for killing things in melee (he also gets a few other goodies but those are minor).
Come up with a Meta Mage meleer. I'll make a ToB character that will slaughter it without even breaking sweat.


Not this PrC in particular but I can think of two 9th level spells that are more powerful than entire classes off the top of my head: Gate and Shapechange.

I just want to point out that yes, Shapechange is more powerful than your PrC. If anyone tells you differently they are either misinformed or lying.