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Tyndmyr
2010-02-23, 08:56 AM
Aright...here's the basic concept. Four man teams that exist and are trained specifically to hunt down and kill casters. In this world, they're NPCs...but they should be something to be feared. They have a belief system in which magic is evil, and thus, while they may be willing to use a slight amount of it towards the end goal of the destruction of magic, they avoid doing so whenever possible.

Mechanically, I want four specific party roles. I don't know exactly what, but I want each of them to be quite distinct, making the tactics against them more interesting. Somewhere around CR10-14, depending on just how much caster hatred can be fit in there.

Some method of preventing teleportation will be necessary. If a mundane option comparable to dimension lock is out there, that'd rock. Physically trapping a caster can probably be acheived by a chain fighter with stand still, mage slayer, and the appropriate AoO feats. Edit: Hmm, could add a few levels of knight to prevent even 5ft adjusts.

A ranged team member seems handy. Cragtop archer, perhaps. Magic arrows may be necessary since non-magical arrows are just too easy to avoid.

Some semi-decent way of locating casters is also necessary. Bardic Knowledge and/or a great gather information check is probably ideal here.

Any thoughts?

Lucas Pitta
2010-02-23, 09:16 AM
The best way to kill a spellcaster, anti magic field (sadly a spell), spell resistance, and getting a hard hitter to full attack a wizard, usually brings him down rather quickly, can`t help much with the finding him part though :smallbiggrin:

Quirp
2010-02-23, 09:25 AM
I would go with a kind of ranger (party role: sneak, acrobatics, tracker, perhaps ranged support). You could give him the ACFs favored enemy (arcanist) and the one from cityscape (urban tracker). He than could find and spy on your wizards without (much) magic.
The Mage Slayer Line of feats (as mentioned) and a (refluffed to non-exalted) Nemesis (BoED) would be good, too.

Optimystik
2010-02-23, 09:25 AM
Dominant Ideal Ardent gish, Swordsage/Soulknife/Soulbow, Psychic Rogue, and StP Erudite (to pull the best spells from the heads of their victims.)

Magic is evil? No problem, they don't use any.

(I'm only being partially facetious; a caster-killing party like this would fit in quite well in Dark Sun.)

magic9mushroom
2010-02-23, 09:31 AM
Dominant Ideal Ardent gish, Swordsage/Soulknife/Soulbow, Psychic Rogue, and StP Erudite (to pull the best spells from the heads of their victims.)

Magic is evil? No problem, they don't use any.

(I'm only being partially facetious; a caster-killing party like this would fit in quite well in Dark Sun.)

Spell to Power Erudites still manifest "spells" as opposed to "powers", so they're not all that clearly non-magical.

Also, where's the Psychic Warrior? :smallfrown:

Lysander
2010-02-23, 09:33 AM
A big question is what level their quarry is? If the highest rogue wizards out there are level 10 or so then they maybe have a shot without magic. With level 20 wizards, how can they even find the guy?

Quirp
2010-02-23, 09:40 AM
If our wizard doesn´t stop adventuring and is a "real " wizard and not schroedinger`s wizard bardic knowledge and gather information will suffice to find (but not necessarily kill) him. If he hides in a cave and does nothing it might be a bit more complicated (but I don`t know if he is "huntworthy" any more than).

Optimystik
2010-02-23, 09:52 AM
Also, where's the Psychic Warrior? :smallfrown:

Ardents make better gishes. Same BAB, same armor proficiencies, same powers (with the right mantles) - better ones, in fact. Just grab MWP, perhaps with a Psywar dip, and you're good to go.

In addition, By RAW they can lose a bunch of ML and still get 9th-level powers, due to how their powers known work (though you still lose PP.) You want to lose 4 at the absolute most, but can lose up to 7 before giving up 9ths if I calculate correctly.


A big question is what level their quarry is? If the highest rogue wizards out there are level 10 or so then they maybe have a shot without magic. With level 20 wizards, how can they even find the guy?

The psionic party above has Vision, Metafaculty and Hypercognition. He's not hiding for long.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-23, 09:58 AM
The best way to kill a spellcaster, anti magic field (sadly a spell), spell resistance, and getting a hard hitter to full attack a wizard, usually brings him down rather quickly, can`t help much with the finding him part though :smallbiggrin:

:smallsigh: No, AMF and SR are not the keys to beating a caster. Any Full Caster with a brain will know how to avoid the first like the plague and will be able to overcome the second easily.


Dominant Ideal Ardent gish, Swordsage/Soulknife/Soulbow, Psychic Rogue, and StP Erudite (to pull the best spells from the heads of their victims.)

Magic is evil? No problem, they don't use any.

(I'm only being partially facetious; a caster-killing party like this would fit in quite well in Dark Sun.)

The Ardent and Erudite I'll give you, the Swordsage/Soulbow not so much. The Psychic Rogue? Maybe, but they'd need a lot of optimization to do so. All of this depends on knowing ahead of time what spells the caster in question has prepared/learned




Really, the best way to kill a caster is to be one. Very few classes have the sheer number of options that a full caster does.

Optimystik
2010-02-23, 10:04 AM
The Ardent and Erudite I'll give you, the Swordsage/Soulbow not so much. The Psychic Rogue? Maybe, but they'd need a lot of optimization to do so. All of this depends on knowing ahead of time what spells the caster in question has prepared/learned.

Really, the best way to kill a caster is to be one. Very few classes have the sheer number of options that a full caster does.

I wanted a melee and an archer in there per the OP's wishes. 4 full manifesters would of course be ideal (drop the Soulbow for an Educated Wilder and the PR for a Psion), but they wouldn't exactly be "quite distinct."

I also wanted a trapsmith - it's less problematic at high levels, but there's always a chance you might want to disable a symbol or something else nasty that you need Trapfinding to deal with.

The Soulbow build isn't bad - Wis to everything and can shoot in an AMF fairly regularly.

Calimehter
2010-02-23, 10:15 AM
Though Druids and their ilk are the best and most traditional way to achieve this, you can also get decent beastmaster types (or even Beastmasters themselves) without a lot of magic, just a lot of ranks in Handle Animal. Trained critters with Scent and other detection abilities are a great way for muggle-types to get around popular low level "avoidance" spells like Invisibility and Disguise Self. Trained flyers (and flying mounts) help out a lot, too. I would be sure to include someone like this in there.

As others have said, part of the success of this type of party is going to depend on how high level and optimized their quarry is. Not only is a Level 20 batman-style Wizard going to be impossible to catch, he may make it his business to Scry and Die each and every hunting team out there if they start getting too successful. Unless he's the secret head of the cult and is using their zeal to eliminate the future competition, which would be a pretty sweet plot twist for some PCs or other to find out about. :smallbiggrin:

Tyndmyr
2010-02-23, 11:18 AM
Making one of the four an ubercharger w pierce magical concealment, pierce magical...armor was it? Anyway...that should put out enough damage to drop a caster. Im not overly worried about dropping them once trapped.

Finding a wizard magically has already been beaten to death in one topic. Of course...it's much easier to find any old wizard than it is to find a specific wizard. So, you could have quite successful hunters via a willingness to hunt any casters and using non-magical tracking means.

I wonder...any way to get void sense on a non caster?

Tyndmyr
2010-02-23, 11:24 AM
A big question is what level their quarry is? If the highest rogue wizards out there are level 10 or so then they maybe have a shot without magic. With level 20 wizards, how can they even find the guy?

In this setting, while psionics are relatively rare...all RAW legal stuff does exist. This includes epic casters of a variety of flavors. One of the NPCs happens to be a dragonwrought kobold loredrake with the draconic rites.

Yeah, not all wizards are equally easy to kill, but when you have enough resources, you can find a way. Team antimagic is something of a giant crusade, and while it has near limitless foot soldiers....attrition via grunts is highly unlikely to be effective against most casters. When they get low on spells, they just leave. Thus, they need specialist teams to hunt them down.

Yes, mindraped wizards will likely be called upon eventually, when they end up pitted against the few too powerful to be killed or imprisoned without magic, but Id prefer to avoid jumping right to that. Doesn't make as good of a story.

kentma57
2010-02-23, 12:28 PM
I would suggest two psions designed for battlefield control, they teleport the party in and neutralize the enemy casters magic. Then the fast attack meele units move in(I suggest something like rouge/ninja spy/Iaijutsu master) to try and drop them in one round.

awa
2010-02-23, 05:00 PM
the trick to killing wizards is do it early. wizards need years of training before they even get one level of wizard just have mid level rouges walking around using gather info to find people buying spell books/ material components and then kill the commoner before hes learned to caste any spells just look at the starting ages it takes a long time for a wizard to be even able to caste first level spells let alone break the world spells. and even then if arcane casting is illegal he will have a much harder time finding components/ scrolls, and attempting to find those will result in him being found out and hunted down while hes still relatively low level.

Also regularly people don't get to look at the books to decide winch are the most powerful spells/ feat/skill so an npc wizard might very well ban conjuration so as to focus on evocation even though it's a very sub par move for a pc.

Now once you get the level 20 wizard theirs not much you can do but those guy should be rare/ or nonexistent for all the reasons i just mentioned.

Note this is just for wizards

Deth Muncher
2010-02-23, 05:08 PM
They should be barbarians, as a throwback to the old fluff.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-23, 05:13 PM
They should be barbarians, as a throwback to the old fluff.

Except that a Barbarian in 3.5 can't kill Wizards above 3rd level.

Deth Muncher
2010-02-23, 05:14 PM
Except that a Barbarian in 3.5 can't kill Wizards above 3rd level.

...

*opens mouth, closes it.*

Balls.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-23, 05:22 PM
...

*opens mouth, closes it.*

Balls.

I love it when this happens. :smallbiggrin:

awa
2010-02-24, 12:44 AM
now be fair if the barbarian goes first the wizard is toast.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-02-24, 01:48 AM
At ECL 10 the barbarian *should* never go before a wizard. ie unless the wizard made a big mistake and therfore deserves to die. anyway. . .

If Psionics is fairgame as not-a-caster then I'd say whatever three manifesters you like best and a Swordsage with the diamond mind huge saves manuevers and the shadow hand dimension door manuevers for a tank with evasion from a ring a mettle from a dip.

Oh and dip Warblade for Iron Heart Surge.

Thurbane
2010-02-24, 02:11 AM
Dragonfire Adept?

Invocations: Devour Magic, Chilling Fog, Draconic Flight, Voidsense, Magic Insight, Deafening Roar
Breath Effects: Sickening Breath, Acid Breath, Thunder Breath, Enduring Breath
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana), Listen, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device
Feats: Quicken Breath, Entangling Exhalation, Travel Devotion, Trickery Devotion
Gear: scrolls of AMF, Mindbank etc.

...I'm sure someone could tweak this far better than I could, especially the feat selection.

arguskos
2010-02-24, 02:17 AM
You know, a party involving the Horizon Tripper might be worth considering. The Horizon Tripper, a Warblade lockdown build, a Seer for finding and piercing the caster's defenses, and maybe a Ranger archer with FE(arcanist). Two martialists, one who can ignore anything and the other who can close the distance really well, an archer who can put the hurt on, and a guy who can play the caster game back at them. Might be an alright team.

Jayngfet
2010-02-24, 02:35 AM
I'm thinking elves and other light sleepers here. Without sleep you can hit them at the crack of dawn and before, when they're prepping spells.

As well, melee range. Have fun fireballing when it hits you too. Most arcane casters have crap hitpoints, so it's easy to simply run a sword through them with massive damage alchemical weapon capsuled bastard swords and not worry about critical hits.

As well, dogs are your friend. At 25gp a pop they'd explain what they'r'e doing with loot. A dozen hounds hunting an unathletic wizard without need for sight and not stopping when one is hit with a spell is great. If one is charmed, you have eleven more to deal with.

Caltrops and traps are also amazing. When hunting make sure the simple act of running is damaging, cutting limited hp down bit by bit as they flee.

Sophismata
2010-02-24, 02:56 AM
:smallsigh: No, AMF and SR are not the keys to beating a caster. Any Full Caster with a brain will know how to avoid the first like the plague and will be able to overcome the second easily.

Agree with you on SR, but in actual games I've found AMF is more a DM-call.

faceroll
2010-02-24, 03:21 AM
Shadowpouncing and the ability to trace teleports means you don't need any dimensional locks. Just pop up next to a caster and make a full attack.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 07:52 AM
Agree with you on SR, but in actual games I've found AMF is more a DM-call.

Yeah...some dont actually read the spell before using. Kinda problematic. Not really an issue here.

I like the idea of a horizon tripper as one, a DFA as another, a ranger as archer/tracker, and some sort of seer/social type.

I'll probably try to get IHS on at least one of them, Dogs are quite appropriate for tracking and combat as need be. Anything to tie the casters up and prevent them from escaping easily. Hmm, looks like it's time to get into the builds, then optimize from there.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 08:11 AM
Finding a wizard magically has already been beaten to death in one topic.

That topic was core only, which limited the options considerably. A psionic party has no problem finding a high-level wizard, particularly one that is also capable of casting spells (or faking them via UMD.)


Except that a Barbarian in 3.5 can't kill Wizards above 3rd level.

Even below that the wizard can still get lucky vs. their will save.


Agree with you on SR, but in actual games I've found AMF is more a DM-call.

Not sure what you mean by that. The things that get around AMF are right in the spell description, and given that it turns off all of the user's magic first, makes it hard to keep up with someone that can teleport, fly, walk through walls, turn invisible etc.

A dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html) can get around many of those limitations, but not a humanoid.

potatocubed
2010-02-24, 08:31 AM
The easiest way to hunt anything is to make it come to you. Grab something the wizard wants, coat it in sixteen kinds of contact poison, stick it on top of a terrible deathtrap for good measure, then wait for him to come and get it. You don't even need to be in the same room.

I'm wondering also if there's a way to tie an arrow to a huge boulder, so that when the arrow's stuck in the wizard it breaks his weight limit for teleporting. I think RAW that won't work, though, since the bringing along of objects is optional.

Jayngfet
2010-02-24, 08:33 AM
You're all forgetting this is a "real" wizard, not something a random player made up. He picks the most convenient spells for use at first level.

For example, shocking grasp is a dream for when barfights get ugly, and charm person has a million and one uses.

As he levels he doesn't pick new spells according to build but according to need or want.

To continue, he goes "Ah, flaming sphere! That would be good for light shows and impress the chicks I don't wanna charm since I'm not chaotic evil.

By the time he's ninth level has a bunch of spells he has for various reasons and odds are doesn't bother wasting the time to prepare on a day he doesn't think he's going to need them for.

Contrast a Tippy wizard, who spawns at epic level fully made with spells contoured exactly to his current job and is hardworking enough to make a gazillion traps dispite it being boring repetitive and lame work, as opposed to impressing women and making sorcerers.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-24, 08:39 AM
You're all forgetting this is a "real" wizard, not something a random player made up. He picks the most convenient spells for use at first level.

For example, shocking grasp is a dream for when barfights get ugly, and charm person has a million and one uses.

As he levels he doesn't pick new spells according to build but according to need or want.

To continue, he goes "Ah, flaming sphere! That would be good for light shows and impress the chicks I don't wanna charm since I'm not chaotic evil.

By the time he's ninth level has a bunch of spells he has for various reasons and odds are doesn't bother wasting the time to prepare on a day he doesn't think he's going to need them for.

Contrast a Tippy wizard, who spawns at epic level fully made with spells contoured exactly to his current job and is hardworking enough to make a gazillion traps dispite it being boring repetitive and lame work, as opposed to impressing women and making sorcerers.

Thing about wizards is that because they have unlimited spells known, they can have their cake and eat it as far as low-level and high-level spells go.

Otodetu
2010-02-24, 08:48 AM
You're all forgetting this is a "real" wizard, not something a random player made up. He picks the most convenient spells for use at first level.

For example, shocking grasp is a dream for when barfights get ugly, and charm person has a million and one uses.

As he levels he doesn't pick new spells according to build but according to need or want.

To continue, he goes "Ah, flaming sphere! That would be good for light shows and impress the chicks I don't wanna charm since I'm not chaotic evil.

By the time he's ninth level has a bunch of spells he has for various reasons and odds are doesn't bother wasting the time to prepare on a day he doesn't think he's going to need them for.

Contrast a Tippy wizard, who spawns at epic level fully made with spells contoured exactly to his current job and is hardworking enough to make a gazillion traps dispite it being boring repetitive and lame work, as opposed to impressing women and making sorcerers.

Something like this indeed.

Mercenary Pen
2010-02-24, 08:48 AM
You haven't clarified this yet, but are they supposed to be hunting down divine casters as well as arcanists?

Also, for a real sense of presence, you probably want multiple four man mage-hunter teams, each with a slightly different group build... Plus you can throw in references to even more teams (remember, for better or worse, talking is a free action). Lay the hooks right and, if your PC's bite, this could turn into an entire campaign arc.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 08:53 AM
That topic was core only, which limited the options considerably. A psionic party has no problem finding a high-level wizard, particularly one that is also capable of casting spells (or faking them via UMD.)

Mmm, good point. This is non-core, so there are a great deal more options.

Psionics are relatively rare in this world, so I'd prefer to avoid relying on psionicists too heavily, since I want to use this party as a template for assassin groups, not as a one shot. It's hard to justify rarity when you've got a faction cranking out pisons like mad...and said faction is trying to get rid of all forms of magic from the world. They're unlikely to differentiate between a psionicist and a wizard, because the end results are pretty similar.

On the helpful side of things, since they don't rule the world, the automatic reaction of wizards isn't always to run and hide, and magic is openly accepted in many areas, so not every wizard is all that difficult to find.

The big challenge is making an anti-magic vs pro-magic fight that isn't automatically "magic wins".

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 08:57 AM
You haven't clarified this yet, but are they supposed to be hunting down divine casters as well as arcanists?

Also, for a real sense of presence, you probably want multiple four man mage-hunter teams, each with a slightly different group build... Plus you can throw in references to even more teams (remember, for better or worse, talking is a free action). Lay the hooks right and, if your PC's bite, this could turn into an entire campaign arc.

Oh, everything. They're not terribly discriminating. If it's magic, it dies or is destroyed.

It actually is a campaign arc already to a large degree...we do round robin DMing, so it got brought up in a rather cool way, so it got ran with, and became big. Knowledge about the enemy forces is limited beyond the fact that they're immense and aggressive, so fluff is mostly defined by whoever says it first while DMing. The multiple teams is intended since neither I, nor the other full casters, are at all threatened by any quantity of regular troops, so we gotta step up the danger to casters quite a bit.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 08:57 AM
The big challenge is making an anti-magic vs pro-magic fight that isn't automatically "magic wins".

Magic must defeat Magic!


Because, you know, casters are too broken for anything less than a caster to beat.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 08:59 AM
http://http://sharetv.org/images/jackie_chan_adventures/uncle-char.jpg


Magic must defeat Magic!


Because, you know, casters are too broken for anything less than a caster to beat.

I suspect it'll eventually result in them using casters against us, tbh. But I want that to be exceptional....they're forced to use what they see as evil in order to wipe it out. Not something they turn to right after the first defeat.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 09:04 AM
You're all forgetting this is a "real" wizard, not something a random player made up. He picks the most convenient spells for use at first level.

For example, shocking grasp is a dream for when barfights get ugly, and charm person has a million and one uses.

As he levels he doesn't pick new spells according to build but according to need or want.

To continue, he goes "Ah, flaming sphere! That would be good for light shows and impress the chicks I don't wanna charm since I'm not chaotic evil.

By the time he's ninth level has a bunch of spells he has for various reasons and odds are doesn't bother wasting the time to prepare on a day he doesn't think he's going to need them for.

It's a world where everything thats RAW is allowed, remember. My wizard in this world is a wizard 5/incantatrix 4/IotSV2. The Mystic Theurge abuses wings of cover and other miss chances. The team assassins both can blink and/or go invisible at will. Flight is pretty much party wide. While we're powerful for our level, we're not the only ones who can do such things, and we're certainly not the most powerful casters in town.

Sure, it's not tippyverse, and personalities lead to a wide variety among casters, but you don't get to epic levels by being careless either. I'd assume a basic level of competence among all high level casters, such as preparing basic defensive spells daily, given that your nation is in open war with one that has vowed to end all magic.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 09:08 AM
I suspect it'll eventually result in them using casters against us, tbh. But I want that to be exceptional....they're forced to use what they see as evil in order to wipe it out. Not something they turn to right after the first defeat.

Suel Arcanamach, Divine Crusader, Duskblade, Warmind, and a few other classes can accomplish this.

Sophismata
2010-02-24, 09:10 AM
Not sure what you mean by that. The things that get around AMF are right in the spell description, and given that it turns off all of the user's magic first, makes it hard to keep up with someone that can teleport, fly, walk through walls, turn invisible etc.

Actually, after re-reading AMF, I'm not sure what I meant by that either.

It only works if you ambush the wizard. I guess, cast it on the rogue and hope the enemy wizard is grounded. This is actually a fairly good idea (and highly likely in most games I've seen).

While you cannot cast spells into the AMF, you could just put a Wall of Force between you and the field, which would then remain once the AMF made contact (and block LOE).


Edit: As a result, I believe the OP's best answer is a Swordsage or RKV with an antimagic field item. Since you don't want to be casting spells, Paladin (Slaughter/Tyranny/Freedom) 4 is probably a good entry. Grab a variant that kills spell-casting (if one exists). OR, even better - Mage Slayer feats. Pal / Crusader / RKV will also get the Thicket of Blades stance, among other awesome maneuvers that aren't supernatural.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 09:13 AM
Actually, after re-reading AMF, I'm not sure what I meant by that either.

It only works if you ambush the wizard. I guess, cast it on the rogue and hope the enemy wizard is grounded. This is actually a fairly good idea (and highly likely in most games I've seen).

While you cannot cast spells into the AMF, you could just put a Wall of Force between you and the field, which would then remain once the AMF made contact (and block LOE).

The problem is sneaking up on a Wizard with Divine Oracle levels, and is currently Shapechanged into a Dire Tortoise.

Sophismata
2010-02-24, 09:16 AM
The problem is sneaking up on a Wizard with Divine Oracle levels, and is currently Shapechanged into a Dire Tortoise.

I don't know if that's a problem in this campaign, however. Plus, no Shapechange - they're not high enough level. Also, we're not actually trying to kill them, AFAIK, just provide a credible threat.


RKV is the way to go, I think. You could refluff it to be the prestige class of this order of mageslayers. Shadow Jaunt and Shadow Blink are extraordinary abilities.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 09:17 AM
Technically, you can cast instantanious conjurations into a AMF. Still, it does stop most attacks, and if you can get the caster in there...and move faster than him, you can make it fairly problematic. So, the key becomes...how do you build a character to do that?

Telonius
2010-02-24, 09:18 AM
By "magic is evil," does that include magic weapons and wondrous items? They're going to have an awfully hard time fighting anything when even DR/magic poses a problem, and they have no way to fly other than inventing the hang glider.

Or are they planning to destroy the items after they destroy the creators? You might have a bit of fun with an Artificers' Guild, if so. Recruit their help and promise them that they'll have no competition from Wizards making items, ever again. (Obviously, don't tell them that they're next on the hit list after Batman).

Sophismata
2010-02-24, 09:18 AM
Technically, you can cast instantanious conjurations into a AMF. Still, it does stop most attacks, and if you can get the caster in there...and move faster than him, you can make it fairly problematic. So, the key becomes...how do you build a character to do that?

Thread moves fast. See my previous two posts. Shadow Jaunt is not a supernatural ability, oddly enough.

(I disagree on the instantaneous into the AMF, as long as the effect is being created within the AMF (eg, Wall of Force). But that's neither here nor there.)

Edit: Wall of Force is, of course, not instantaneous. To clarify, Orb spells work fine, but an instantaneous conjuration whose Effect: was created within the AMF would have the Effect: suppressed, and thus nothing would happen.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 09:30 AM
By "magic is evil," does that include magic weapons and wondrous items? They're going to have an awfully hard time fighting anything when even DR/magic poses a problem, and they have no way to fly other than inventing the hang glider.

Yes, yes it does. I could see them justifying the use of some items in pursuit of the greater evil, casters themselves, though.

Current fluff is that the preferred method of destruction involves barbarians sundering the items. One of the guys actually figured out the nitty gritty details of how all that gets handled, and involves chaining them so they don't slaughter everyone around, and just tossing the items into hacking reach.

Jayngfet
2010-02-24, 09:39 AM
Wizards can IN THEORY learn every spell ever. Keep in mind all of those spells cost money, and before they can make a dimensional hidey hole they still need to pay rent, feed themselves and perhaps families, pay taxes, and do all those things adventurers generally don't.

They're going to need to sink a lot of gold into staying alive, as well as sinking money into material components. Not even factoring in pleasure and other jobs they may take.

In theory Serfs and Nobles get the same starting gold and can buy magic items. In practice the Noble taxes the Serf and takes all money for whatever he wants, which is usually shiny, expensive armor with perhaps a side of magic.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-24, 09:42 AM
Magic must defeat Magic!


Because, you know, casters are too broken for anything less than a caster to beat.

Master Rahl guide us? :smalltongue:


Wizards can IN THEORY learn every spell ever.

No they can't.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 09:43 AM
In theory Serfs and Nobles get the same starting gold and can buy magic items. In practice the Noble taxes the Serf and takes all money for whatever he wants, which is usually shiny, expensive armor with perhaps a side of magic.

This is correct. However, I see no particular reason why the wizard should be compared to the serf in this equation. Especially when you list the noble as shelling out money for armor with a side of magic.

Casters can be assumed to have a decent amount of money and spells known. Some are in positions of power, some are not. Not all positions of power are filled with casters, though. The current king happens to be a diplomancer.

Greenish
2010-02-24, 09:50 AM
Not sure what you mean by that. The things that get around AMF are right in the spell description, and given that it turns off all of the user's magic first, makes it hard to keep up with someone that can teleport, fly, walk through walls, turn invisible etc.

A dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html) can get around many of those limitations, but not a humanoid.Hmm. What's the mage hunters' stand on grafts? Grafts evil by default, but then the mage hunters' seem to operate under different standards for morality.

Jayngfet
2010-02-24, 09:54 AM
This is correct. However, I see no particular reason why the wizard should be compared to the serf in this equation. Especially when you list the noble as shelling out money for armor with a side of magic.

Casters can be assumed to have a decent amount of money and spells known. Some are in positions of power, some are not. Not all positions of power are filled with casters, though. The current king happens to be a diplomancer.

Of course you're forgetting the fact that nonmagical armor can still cost an assload of money. Mithril or adamantine full plate needs no casters and can turn the tide of battle on the right warriors.

Wizards can come in all shapes and sizes but at the end of the day your average wizard is similar to a blacksmith: They have a job only they can do and everyone must see them at one point or another. This doesn't make them nobles any more than any other apprentice.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 09:57 AM
Hmm. What's the mage hunters' stand on grafts? Grafts evil by default, but then the mage hunters' seem to operate under different standards for morality.

Not defined yet. Considering torture, slavery, and overthrow of nations in pursuit of this goal are acceptable, I suppose they might consider it.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 01:15 PM
Defeating an AMF even in core is laughably easy - look up Mordenkainen's Tinfoil Hat.


cast it on the rogue

No.

Ormur
2010-02-24, 01:27 PM
Defeating an AMF even in core is laughably easy - look up Mordenkainen's Tinfoil Hat.

I've heard about this tactic but never seen it described, I searched for "mordenkainen's tinfoil hat" and got nothing. Could you point me to something about it?

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 01:31 PM
Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you

Yeah, justifying that on a rogue is difficult at best. Unless the rogue has an item of AMF, it runs into both fluff and rules trouble. Frankly, if the rogue can sneak close enough to surprise a caster with an AMF, he's better off doing, say, a sneak attack(assuming pierce magical concealment here).

Or have the chain/lockdown fighter there. AMFs are mostly useless unless you actually get the caster into it and keep him there. If you can get close enough to use em, you're better off being more aggressive with something else. Thus, the AMF doesn't make sense for most attackers. It's better used as a defensive option(traps, etc), or as a way to negate magical ability to be in an environment you live in naturally(flight, elemental planes, and so forth).

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 01:34 PM
Of course you're forgetting the fact that nonmagical armor can still cost an assload of money. Mithril or adamantine full plate needs no casters and can turn the tide of battle on the right warriors.

Wizards can come in all shapes and sizes but at the end of the day your average wizard is similar to a blacksmith: They have a job only they can do and everyone must see them at one point or another. This doesn't make them nobles any more than any other apprentice.

Wizards....blacksmith apprentice...one of these things is not like the other. Becoming an awesome blacksmith doesn't give you great power. Becoming an awesome wizard does.

It's not the only way to power, of course, but it's an effective one, and those with power have a much better chance at leadership than those without.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 01:36 PM
Master Rahl guide us? :smalltongue:

Uncle, Jackie Chan Adventures. Best crazy old guy every.


No they can't.

Allow me to correct him: Wizards can, theoretically, learn every Wizard spell there is and a large chunk of other spells via Arcane Disciple (devoted to Seterous), Wyrm Wizard, and Recaster.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-24, 01:38 PM
Not sure if you are allowing homebrew but if you are, have you looked at Lord Gareth's Voidblade Eliminator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7594564#post7594564)? It has a lot of stuff that might help.

faceroll
2010-02-24, 01:39 PM
Defeating an AMF even in core is laughably easy - look up Mordenkainen's Tinfoil Hat.

Unless the wizard is flying. The tinfoil hat only works if you hang out on the ground. Otherwise, you just approach the wizard from below.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 01:56 PM
Unless the wizard is flying. The tinfoil hat only works if you hang out on the ground. Otherwise, you just approach the wizard from below.

In which case you resort to letting the Fly spell get negated temporarily. If you're 50ft up, then it means the AMF is centered on a creature within 10ft of you who either is extremely big or has natural flight. Drop 15ft and then resume flying.

faceroll
2010-02-24, 02:07 PM
In which case you resort to letting the Fly spell get negated temporarily. If you're 50ft up, then it means the AMF is centered on a creature within 10ft of you who either is extremely big or has natural flight. Drop 15ft and then resume flying.

But you get slain by the AoO you provoke as you move through threatened squares.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-24, 02:10 PM
The big challenge is making an anti-magic vs pro-magic fight that isn't automatically "magic wins".Petition whatever overdeity there is to downgrade to 4e.

Otherwise, magic's already won.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 02:13 PM
I've heard about this tactic but never seen it described, I searched for "mordenkainen's tinfoil hat" and got nothing. Could you point me to something about it?

One 3rd-level core spell is all you need - Shrink Item. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shrinkitem.htm)

Turn a small enclosure of some kind - like a tent with the flap closed - into your hat. Once an AMF covers your square, it negates your Shrink Item. The tent immediately returns to full size, blocking line of effect from the AMF. You are now free to teleport/dimension door/etc. to safety.

For protection, you can turn any material tent into your hat. Make an adamantine tent - Shrink Item lets you make it feel like cloth. When it returns to full size, you now have an adamantine enclosure between you and the enemy, and all of your spellcasting ability. Though of course, you do not have LoE to him, either.


Unless the wizard is flying. The tinfoil hat only works if you hang out on the ground. Otherwise, you just approach the wizard from below.

a) How are you flying after him when you're in an AMF?

b) Even if you somehow take the sky and catch him - his fly spell fails and he hits the ground, then the hat triggers and LoE is broken anyway. This solves nothing.


But you get slain by the AoO you provoke as you move through threatened squares.

Except that while you're falling, you're inside an adamantine tent until you're outside the AMF again.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-24, 02:19 PM
I personally can only think of 3:

Occult Slayer (CW or CA)
Arcanopath Monk (DMC)
Mage Slayer (CA or CM)

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-24, 02:19 PM
Defeating an AMF even in core is laughably easy - look up Mordenkainen's Tinfoil Hat.That's "Lycanthromancer's Tinfoil Hat," thank you very much.


I've heard about this tactic but never seen it described, I searched for "mordenkainen's tinfoil hat" and got nothing. Could you point me to something about it?It was an idea I had: Use shrink item (and possibly permanency if you want something reusable) on a dome or cone (large enough to cover you completely) made of some light, cheap, hard-to-damage material (such as darkwood under the effects of ironwood), and shrink it down to the size of a hat. Wear it. Now you're protected from AMFs completely, and if you have a raven familiar, it can ready actions to protect you from any single-target effect, AoE effect, or, really, anything else that requires line of sight and line of effect. Once you're inside, you can teleport, dimension door, or shapechange into a burrowing creature to get out.

It's also stylish and can be used as a weapon to...ahem...get the drop on foes.

[edit] Ack. Ninja'd.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 02:26 PM
That's "Lycanthromancer's Tinfoil Hat," thank you very much.

Credit given as deserved. *bows deeply*

Also, I can't believe I forgot the Permanency part of that equation. *slaps forehead*

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-24, 02:29 PM
Also, the tinfoil hat trick is incredibly cheap for any wizard that didn't ban access to shrink item (and seriously, what in/sane wizard would ban transmutation?). All it costs is one spell slot once every X days and a big dome-shaped piece of something-or-other. You could use colored Saran Wrap and it'd have the same effect, though it'd be a bit harder to stop an ubercharging barbarian with it.

faceroll
2010-02-24, 02:31 PM
a) How are you flying after him when you're in an AMF?

Flight's not really that hard to get.


b) Even if you somehow take the sky and catch him - his fly spell fails and he hits the ground, then the hat triggers and LoE is broken anyway. This solves nothing.

Except that while you're falling, you're inside an adamantine tent until you're outside the AMF again.

You aren't inside anything. You've got a tent above you; your underside is still totally exposed, and that's where I'm approaching you from, that's where you provoke, and that's where I'm burying my lance.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 02:36 PM
Flight's not really that hard to get.



You aren't inside anything. You've got a tent above you; your underside is still totally exposed, and that's where I'm approaching you from, that's where you provoke, and that's where I'm burying my lance.

Where does it ever say that falling provokes an AoO?


Edit: @OP: Do you have a Rogue or other Sneak Attacker in your party?

arguskos
2010-02-24, 02:37 PM
Where does it ever say that falling provokes an AoO?
Movement through a threatened square. If you leave my threatened square, by any movement, you provoke. Unless that DOESN'T provoke now, in which case, I'll be really impressed.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-24, 02:37 PM
Flight's not really that hard to get.Yeah, with magic. There's a bit of a problem here; I'll tell you what that is if you like.

Also note that aberrations, magical beasts, outsiders, plants, fey, monstrous humanoids, oozes, undead, constructs, and dragons are to be slaughtered as well (so no go on the magical mounts, since flyers large enough to carry most Small-and-larger creatures tend to be something other than humanoids, animals, and non-monstrous, mundane vermin).


You aren't inside anything. You've got a tent above you; your underside is still totally exposed, and that's where I'm approaching you from, that's where you provoke, and that's where I'm burying my lance.You have to have perfect maneuverability to fly straight up; otherwise you're going to have a dome of metal or wood between you and the wizard as he falls; meanwhile, as soon as the LoE is blocked (should be within 5-10' of starting the fall), the wizard is good to go again, and can leave with little to-do.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 02:42 PM
You aren't inside anything. You've got a tent above you; your underside is still totally exposed, and that's where I'm approaching you from, that's where you provoke, and that's where I'm burying my lance.

So you have Ex Perfect Maneuverability flight without being incorporeal? Do share your secret.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-24, 02:45 PM
How are these antimagic zealots planning on killing all of the infinite outsiders on all of the infinite planes spanning the multiverse?

After all, a great many of them have plane shift, and are fully capable of taking on a good chunk of the Material Plane all by themselves.

Also, what about greater artifacts? And gods? And overdeities? I'm sure Ao would have something to say if these people started (somehow) getting the upper hand, and unbalancing the homeostasis of the cosmos.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-24, 02:46 PM
How are these antimagic zealots planning on killing all of the infinite outsiders on all of the infinite planes spanning the multiverse?

After all, a great many of them have plane shift, and are fully capable of taking on a good chunk of the Material Plane all by themselves.

Also, what about greater artifacts? And gods?

My two cents:

Race: Neraph Death Knight
Class: Monk 5/Arcanopath Monk 10/ Occult Slayer 5
Feat: Mage Slayer

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 02:47 PM
So you have Ex Perfect Maneuverability flight without being incorporeal? Do share your secret.

All you need is Good and Improved Maneuverability (Draconomicon, good luck qualifying).

faceroll
2010-02-24, 02:55 PM
Also note that aberrations, magical beasts, outsiders, plants, fey, monstrous humanoids, oozes, undead, constructs, and dragons are to be slaughtered as well (so no go on the magical mounts, since flyers large enough to carry most Small-and-larger creatures tend to be something other than humanoids, animals, and non-monstrous, mundane vermin).

Um, what.


So you have Ex Perfect Maneuverability flight without being incorporeal? Do share your secret.

Templates.
Mounts.
Feats.
Mounts with templates.
Mounts with feats.

Almost forgot; mounts with templates AND feats.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 02:58 PM
Um, what.



Templates.
Mounts.
Feats.
Mounts with templates.
Mounts with feats.

Almost forgot; mounts with templates AND feats.

If it's a Paladin, I've got bad news for you. If it's a Prestige Paladin, I've got even worse news for you.


If it's the Wild Cohort feat, a Druid's Animal Companion, or simply a purchased beast, I've got Good News, Bad News, and Vin Diesel.

faceroll
2010-02-24, 03:01 PM
If it's a Paladin, I've got bad news for you. If it's a Prestige Paladin, I've got even worse news for you.


If it's the Wild Cohort feat, a Druid's Animal Companion, or simply a purchased beast, I've got Good News, Bad News, and Vin Diesel.

Who said anything about class features?
Look, the hat trick is neat, but it has a big hole in it if you are flying and an enemy with an AMF up can fly up to it. Can every creature in existence do so? No, some creatures don't fly. Can every flying creature do so? No, some flying creatures can't fly in an AMF because they have magical flight. Can every creature with non-magical flight fly up to it? No, not every creature has perfect maneuverability. Are there ways to gain non-magical flight with perfect maneuverability? Yes.

It's pretty simple.

Off the top of my head, I can think of 3 templates that give you good flight maneuverability- winged, half-fey and half-celestial. I am sure there are plenty more. Then you just pick up the feat that bumps your maneuverability up to perfect.

I can't believe I have to spell this out for you guys.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 03:06 PM
Arcanopath Monk

You realize that almost all of his abilities are (Su), right?
(They also suck, but given that they're monks...)


Templates.
Mounts.
Feats.
Mounts with templates.
Mounts with feats.

Almost forgot; mounts with templates AND feats.

I already covered that dragons can make good use of an AMF. If they have one at their disposal, great, but then you're a wee bit over-CRed anyway.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 03:08 PM
Off the top of my head, I can think of 3 templates that give you good flight maneuverability- winged, half-fey and half-celestial. I am sure there are plenty more. Then you just pick up the feat that bumps your maneuverability up to perfect.

I can't believe I have to spell this out for you guys.

As I said, got news for you: That feat requires a base Fly speed of 120ft or higher (or was it 200ft?). No template in existence gives a Fly speed that fast without massive Monk levels being involved.


And Boots of Striding and Springing won't work.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 03:08 PM
Not sure if you are allowing homebrew but if you are, have you looked at Lord Gareth's Voidblade Eliminator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7594564#post7594564)? It has a lot of stuff that might help.

Not generally. There is one homebrewed alternate class feature for rogue(extra skill bonuses instead of sneak attack. Someone wanted it...not particularily powerful), and one homebrewed template.

Downgrading to 4e would be...not well received. We tried 4e before this, and it was universally regarding as mostly boring. There's really just no way to translate fairly high optimization 3.5 play to 4e.

How they plan to kill all the outsiders, greater artifacts, and the gods themselves is an excellent question, and hasn't been brought up yet. Presumably artifacts can be somehow destroyed, even if it takes rather drastic measures(hurling it into the sun, say), but at a minimum, they can be removed from earth. How you can reasonably get rid of a sphere of annihilation is a rather big problem, though. It's not as if hitting it is a winning plan. Gods can be at least weakened by killing their priests and followers. Well, save for overdieties. Not much to be done about that.

faceroll
2010-02-24, 03:08 PM
I already covered that dragons can make good use of an AMF. If they have one at their disposal, great, but then you're a wee bit over-CRed anyway.

Dragons are a poor choice because they are clumsy fliers. Dragons really can't make that great of use of an AMF. A guy with an AMF on a large half-celestial quadreped (with the improved flying feat, can't remember it's name) could make good use of the AMF.


As I said, got news for you: That feat requires a base Fly speed of 120ft or higher (or was it 200ft?). No template in existence gives a Fly speed that fast without massive Monk levels being involved.


And Boots of Striding and Springing won't work.

1. You are making up rules.
2. 120 feet fly is easy, anyway. 200 is a little harder, but still very doable. Half celestial or half fey template on anything with 60 ft move.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 03:13 PM
I can't believe I have to spell this out for you guys.

Protip: check your facts before getting snarky with other people.

arguskos
2010-02-24, 03:13 PM
All you need is Good and Improved Maneuverability (Draconomicon, good luck qualifying).
Also, Imp. Maneuverability can't improve past Good. Just checked.

faceroll
2010-02-24, 03:15 PM
Protip: check your facts before getting snarky with other people.

How ironic.


Also, Imp. Maneuverability can't improve past Good. Just checked.

RotW, Improved Flight. Requires you have a natural fly speed, and improves your maneuverability 1 category. No caveats.

Unless there's errata out there for it.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 03:16 PM
Protip: check your facts before getting snarky with other people.

Quoted for Truthery. Check this out:



IMPROVED MANEUVERABILITY [GENERAL]
Your maneuverability in flight improves.
Prerequisites: Fly speed 150 feet, Hover or Wingover.
Benefit: Your maneuverability improves by one category,
from clumsy to poor, poor to average, or average to good
(see Tactical Aerial Movement, page 20 of the Dungeon
Master’s Guide).
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time
you take the feat, your maneuverability improves by one category
(but never becomes better than good).

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-24, 03:16 PM
Um, what.Their goal is to destroy ALL magic. And the only things that either aren't the result of magic or have magic of their own are humanoids (though gnomes are toast), animals, and vermin.

Constructs? Created via magic.
Dragons? Inherently magical creatures.
Outsiders? Magical.
Oozes? Never heard of nonmagical flying jelly outside of a food fight.
Aberrations? Unnatural abominations against nature. Kill them all.
Fey? Uh...no. Few things are more magical than even the most mundane fey.
Plants? The only plants not infused with magic are mundane, non-animate ones. Hard to ride something that stays in one spot. I could make a knothole joke here, but I'm sure you can manage without me.
Monstrous humanoids? Critters that are humanoids magically fused with other monstrous creatures (and generally have magic of their own).
Undead? With their supernatural connection to the negative energy plane and (often) huge number of magical abilities to help them devour living things? I think not.

Ergo, you're kind of limited in your choices for mounts to use.

[edit] Also, you're rather limited on your choices of character class. Even monks get Su abilities. And most of those classes are lucky to hit Tier 3.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 03:17 PM
Master Rahl guide us? :smalltongue:


Amusingly enough, this idea did originally stem from people being introduced to the sword of truth books. The world isn't the same as there, obviously, and some things, such as confessors, don't translate well, but the anti-magic army is strongly based on the order/blood of the fold.

faceroll
2010-02-24, 03:18 PM
Their goal is to destroy ALL magic.

With the caveat that they're willing to use magic to destroy it.


Quoted for Truthery. Check this out:

Wrong feat, bro.
Though with those two feats, you can have anything with perfect fly speed, as long as you can get 150' move (not hard at all).


[edit] Also, you're rather limited on your choices of character class. Even monks get Su abilities. And most of those classes are lucky to hit Tier 3.

Wait, what?
You keep making up stuff that wasn't in the OP. Tyndmyr even said stuff about using enslaved wizards to fight wizards. Now we can't have any classes that use Su abilities, period? Maybe you should start a new thread?

Anyway, ToB classes. Only what, 2 disciplines use a lot of Su? Even the shadow hand teleportation effects are Ex, which is sweet. You don't even need to fly to get up close and nasty with that wizard while in your amf.

Eldariel
2010-02-24, 03:23 PM
As I said, got news for you: That feat requires a base Fly speed of 120ft or higher (or was it 200ft?). No template in existence gives a Fly speed that fast without massive Monk levels being involved.

There are templates giving you twice your landspeed (which you can easily get to 60' with e.g. Barbarian, Fist of the Forests-dips and Fleet of Foot) as flight speed. E.g. Half-Fey or Winged creature.

And Complete Adventurer contains Improved Flight which is Improved Manoeuvrability without prerequisites other than Fly-speed. Eh, I don't really see this being the lynchpoint. Though of course, restricting the characters to few races sucks.


Though a bought mount, e.g. Dragonhawk (120' flight speed; Psychic Reformations get it two Improved Flights), should be able to fly that fast easily.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 03:26 PM
How ironic.

And you're still wrong.

You fly under me, and I fall into your square, but you don't get an AoO for that.

When I'm leaving your square, I'm falling past you - the tent is over me, providing total cover. You still don't get an AoO.

So much for that.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 03:26 PM
Su abilities are generally ok. ToB is ok. Monks are ok(though probably not immensely useful for killing casters). Basically, as long as it isn't magic/product of magic/appears to be magic of any sort, they'll use it to any degree available.

Using magic to fight magic is treated as a "we'll kill them last" sort of thing. Unlikely to be embraced to the degree of learning magic themselves by many as a result...though we may fit a rare individual in with an unusual devotion(think the assassin from Serenity) to this ideology and a casting ability. However, making use of the occasional slave(we know of one such willing slave so far) and the occasional magic item prior to it's destruction may occur. Not by the chumps on the front lines, but you've got to have some special types for wizard killing jobs.

faceroll
2010-02-24, 03:31 PM
And you're still wrong.

You fly under me, and I fall into your square, but you don't get an AoO for that.

When I'm leaving your square, I'm falling past you - the tent is over me, providing total cover. You still don't get an AoO.

So much for that.

AMF is 10 feet. My lance has 10 feet of reach (or more, depending on if I'm big, have feats, etc.). You leave your square, which is movement leaving a square I threaten. You are stabbed. AoO are always provoked when you move into someone else's square, because you are moving out of their 5' threat range (unless of course they are not threatening that square). Which means my mount gets to attack, you, too.

I am also curious how you fall through me and get to keep the tent on. If I am in one place, and you are going down, the tent would get stuck on me. I am uncertain how it would magically move through my square, seeing as how it totally covers both of us.

With that said, I accept your apology. :smallbiggrin:


Su abilities are generally ok. ToB is ok. Monks are ok(though probably not immensely useful for killing casters). Basically, as long as it isn't magic/product of magic/appears to be magic of any sort, they'll use it to any degree available.

Using magic to fight magic is treated as a "we'll kill them last" sort of thing. Unlikely to be embraced to the degree of learning magic themselves by many as a result...though we may fit a rare individual in with an unusual devotion(think the assassin from Serenity) to this ideology and a casting ability. However, making use of the occasional slave(we know of one such willing slave so far) and the occasional magic item prior to it's destruction may occur. Not by the chumps on the front lines, but you've got to have some special types for wizard killing jobs.

So basically this is an organization that goes around killing wizards below level 5? And then they piss of a high level wizard and he annihilates all of them because they have no way of handling meteor storms, much less legions of solars.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 03:33 PM
AMF is 10 feet. My lance has 10 feet of reach (or more, depending on if I'm big, have feats, etc.). You leave your square, which is movement leaving a square I threaten. You are stabbed. AoO are always provoked when you move into someone else's square, because you are moving out of their 5' threat range (unless of course they are not threatening that square). Which means my mount gets to attack, you, too.

The end.

All right, lets even the playing field. You have a lance and a mount with feats, I have Craft Contingent Spell.

(Myrmex, is that you?)



I am also curious how you fall through me and get to keep the tent on.

Rather hard for me to fall faster than an adamantine tent. And again, this whole ridiculous scenario is predicated on me flying around for no reason anyway.

And if I'm going to be flying around, why not do the same trick with my shoes as well as my hat?


With that said, I accept your apology. :smallbiggrin:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Unx2YBWG6DbYrM:http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u134/Ryomalol/Random%2520Stuff/trollface.png

"Problem, officer?"

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 03:42 PM
So basically this is an organization that goes around killing wizards below level 5? And then they piss of a high level wizard and he annihilates all of them because they have no way of handling meteor storms, much less legions of solars.

They have ridiculously large quantities of troops, and they're willing to spend any amount of them towards this end. Sure, a level 5 wizard can fly and use prot: arrows, but enough arrows will cause a problem for him. They also don't mind destroying or torturing those things and people the casters care about to get to them.

As for scale, the city we're currently in has an army of a hundred thousand troops(minus the deaths so far) beseiging it. It's a decently magical world, but it's not tippyverse, so the city has issues with supplies and so forth. Currently relying on sea lanes, due to massive annilation of nearby opposing ships by the party, but that's not guaranteed to last forever, and casters can't be everywhere at once.

Sure, the paranoid wizards that only wish to run can and will do so. Likely be pretty safe unless they get terribly unlucky. But plan a of "killem all" is difficult.

faceroll
2010-02-24, 03:50 PM
All right, lets even the playing field. You have a lance and a mount with feats, I have Craft Contingent Spell.

Well, that wins. Craft Contingent Spell always wins. Can contingency predict states that you would have no idea of knowing about, though?


(Myrmex, is that you?)

I'm not into pokemon (I don't what you're asking).


Rather hard for me to fall faster than an adamantine tent.

Does D&D use Aristotelian or Newtonian laws of motion? And since the tent is above you, wouldn't it just push you down and you'd fall at the same speed? Not that falling works like that IRL.


And again, this whole ridiculous scenario is predicated on me flying around for no reason anyway.

I thought wizards were always flying around because it's the easiest way to avoid chumps.


And if I'm going to be flying around, why not do the same trick with my shoes as well as my hat?

What's going to keep them from falling off of you? I'd say it'd be a pretty good way to crush the guys flying up at you, but the reflex save to negate is pretty trivial. I think you could get it to work with a material that wasn't so heavy.


They have ridiculously large quantities of troops, and they're willing to spend any amount of them towards this end. Sure, a level 5 wizard can fly and use prot: arrows, but enough arrows will cause a problem for him. They also don't mind destroying or torturing those things and people the casters care about to get to them.

As for scale, the city we're currently in has an army of a hundred thousand troops(minus the deaths so far) beseiging it. It's a decently magical world, but it's not tippyverse, so the city has issues with supplies and so forth. Currently relying on sea lanes, due to massive annilation of nearby opposing ships by the party, but that's not guaranteed to last forever, and casters can't be everywhere at once.

Sure, the paranoid wizards that only wish to run can and will do so. Likely be pretty safe unless they get terribly unlucky. But plan a of "killem all" is difficult.

I guess what I'm saying is, this thread, and all the other wizard threads on the internet, have shown there's a point after which a wizard is totally untouchable (around level 10). If the highest level wizard in the world is level 10, he could take out an organization that refuses to use lots of magic, if all RAW is on the board, and the wizard really wants to do it. You know, built from the ground up to avenge his fellow students or whatever against the anti-magic brigade.

A level 20 wizard, or psion, druid, or any tier 1 or 2 class, could single handedly kill everyone unless they are willing to use just as much magic. RAW, that is. If you move outside of RAW, you can make anything work.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 03:52 PM
What's going to keep them from falling off of you?

Nothing, but if they're large enough, they'll block LoE from the AMF for a moment once they expand (and I will know there's an AMF there since my shoes grew in the first place) giving me plenty of time for an immediate action egress.

faceroll
2010-02-24, 03:55 PM
Nothing, but if they're large enough, they'll block LoE from the AMF for a moment once they expand (and I will know there's an AMF there since my shoes grew in the first place) giving me plenty of time for an immediate action egress.

Gotcha.
Yeah, it's a ridiculous trick. With stuff like craft contingent spell and tinfoil accessories, you should never, ever be in trouble due to an AMF. I kind of block celerity and contingencies out when thinking about this stuff, though. It's like tainted scholar- so darn powerful it really shouldn't be included any any serious discussion about something that might be used in a game (unless you're into heavy casterfap). But apparently, this is an all RAW game, so, uh, good luck without magic.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 04:02 PM
I guess what I'm saying is, this thread, and all the other wizard threads on the internet, have shown there's a point after which a wizard is totally untouchable (around level 10). If the highest level wizard in the world is level 10, he could take out an organization that refuses to use lots of magic, if all RAW is on the board, and the wizard really wants to do it. You know, built from the ground up to avenge his fellow students or whatever against the anti-magic brigade.

A level 20 wizard, or psion, druid, or any tier 1 or 2 class, could single handedly kill everyone unless they are willing to use just as much magic. RAW, that is. If you move outside of RAW, you can make anything work.

Hell, Im level 11. Thing is, currently existing wizards have not been built from the ground up to be immune to this army, since....this army wasn't around then. Until this point, dealing with magical threats, making money, crafting items, etc were higher priority than dealing with masses of guys who wouldn't stand a chance vs you one on one anyhow.

Yes, defending yourself against non-magical threats will likely be much more popular in the future...but you don't get level 10 casters overnight. People who have trained and geared specifically to counter this threat will easily be able to do so once they get some levels. However, this wont happen for a bit, and it's highly unlikely that this army would let any such caster live long enough to level up much.

As for epic casters...yes, with mitigation, epic casters can do quite a bit. Not every epic caster has epic spellcasting, and among those who do, not everyone has thousands of casters on hand for mitigation. Epic casters are still fairly rare...all epic characters are. I know of exactly one in the city, and he's...relatively unconcerned about all this. He's also bat**** insane. No, these guys aren't going to invade Sigil or anything, but they certainly can cause problems in the context of this area, where the players live.

Volkov
2010-02-24, 04:08 PM
A living mordenkainen's disjunction and anti-magic field should do the trick. Just for fun, throw in greater dispel magic, dispel evil, dispel law, dispel chaos, dispel good, dismissal, banishment, timestop, dimensional anchor, and dispel magic into the mix.

You know, I actually like this idea enough to give it a name, the spell-slayer ooze.

Greenish
2010-02-24, 04:11 PM
light, cheap, hard-to-damage material (such as darkwood under the effects of ironwood)Isn't Ironwood as heavy as steel as per the spell definition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ironwood.htm)?

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 04:11 PM
A living mordenkainen's disjunction and anti-magic field should do the trick. In fact, I shall call it the spellslayer ooze. Just for fun, throw in Greater dispel magic, dimensional anchor, and dispel magic into the mix.

Oh thats good...Ima combine that with the rules for using oozes as mounts. That'll give the party a real WTF moment. Each of the four will be riding a different ooze. At least, of one of the quads they meet.

Volkov
2010-02-24, 04:12 PM
Oh thats good...Ima combine that with the rules for using oozes as mounts. That'll give the party a real WTF moment. Each of the four will be riding a different ooze. At least, of one of the quads they meet.

Don't forget Timestop and the dispel alignments. Maybe toss in meteor swarm, polar ray, destruction, temporal stasis, and disintegrate in there too.

For added WTFness, make it sapient, colossal+, and very fast with high ability scores. And make it fly...swim, burrow, and climb. :P Heck it could work as the dragon or maybe even the big bad in your campaign.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 04:15 PM
Don't forget Timestop and the dispel alignments.

Huh. How does a Time Stop ooze work? This is gonna be fun.

One of the fun bits of being heavily RAW based is finding all the utter crazy situations allowed by it. Crashing a flying castle is among the ideas socked away for later missions.

Volkov
2010-02-24, 04:16 PM
Huh. How does a Time Stop ooze work? This is gonna be fun.

One of the fun bits of being heavily RAW based is finding all the utter crazy situations allowed by it. Crashing a flying castle is among the ideas socked away for later missions.

It would work by making anyone engulfed by it unable to act. I think....Or would that be temporal stasis?

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 04:17 PM
A living mordenkainen's disjunction and anti-magic field should do the trick. Just for fun, throw in greater dispel magic, dispel evil, dispel law, dispel chaos, dispel good, dismissal, banishment, timestop, dimensional anchor, and dispel magic into the mix.

You know, I actually like this idea enough to give it a name, the spell-slayer ooze.

Good lord, WTF kind of Wizard would actually cast all of that and attempt to create a single Living Spell from them?



One of the fun bits of being heavily RAW based is finding all the utter crazy situations allowed by it. Crashing a flying castle is among the ideas socked away for later missions.


Heh, I'm running a campaign where something like that actually happened. In SHARN (or, rather, to Sharn).

Volkov
2010-02-24, 04:18 PM
Good lord, WTF kind of Wizard would actually cast all of that and attempt to create a single Living Spell from them?

The kind that had a trip to the far realm. And read the second set of spells that would make it even deadlier.

Evard
2010-02-24, 04:21 PM
3 classes (fighter, rogue, ranger, cleric etc)

1 wizard

Have the 3 anti-magic tell the magic user that they are going around killing evil things and since magic is so common the magic user won't think anything of the fact they only kill magic user and such. When they kill all their targets or when the wizard figures out whats going on (which is highly unlikely since there are so many things that have magic). The group could start out with killing the most evil magic users first instead of just anyone who uses magic

Oh to get rid of the mage? Coup de tat by fighter, ranger, or most likely rogue

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 04:23 PM
It would work by making anyone engulfed by it unable to act. I think....Or would that be temporal stasis?

I think time stop would actually speed them up, subjecting them to the extra rounds. Which is kinda good, but possibly bad from the standpoint that being engulfed in an ooze is otherwise problematic.

Trip to the far realm? Not a problem. Such a caster already exists, having been saved by the party earlier. There were a great deal more of said casters, illithids in this world being, as normal, from the far realm....but introduced to this world through wizards tampering excessively with this realm, mostly to negative effect. The party managed to mostly destroy the existing mages guild in this city(very large, urban, central city) via causing an outbreak in the illithid experimentation center. Very messy, a great deal of casualties resulting from a mass of unleashed, vengeful illithids.

On the bright side, some members of the party do know where a permanent portal to the far realm exists, though. Im not sure how this knowledge is in any way...helpful, but at least there's one way to guarantee that their side doesn't lose. Well, isn't the only losing side, anyway.

Volkov
2010-02-24, 04:29 PM
I think time stop would actually speed them up, subjecting them to the extra rounds. Which is kinda good, but possibly bad from the standpoint that being engulfed in an ooze is otherwise problematic.

Trip to the far realm? Not a problem. Such a caster already exists, having been saved by the party earlier. There were a great deal more of said casters, illithids in this world being, as normal, from the far realm....but introduced to this world through wizards tampering excessively with this realm, mostly to negative effect. The party managed to mostly destroy the existing mages guild in this city(very large, urban, central city) via causing an outbreak in the illithid experimentation center. Very messy, a great deal of casualties resulting from a mass of unleashed, vengeful illithids.

On the bright side, some members of the party do know where a permanent portal to the far realm exists, though. Im not sure how this knowledge is in any way...helpful, but at least there's one way to guarantee that their side doesn't lose. Well, isn't the only losing side, anyway.

Perhaps any caught in it are instantly killed as they go through many, many rounds of being hit with destruction, meteor swarm, disintegrate, and polar ray. They'd get a saving throw, but even if they succeed they should take lots of damage. Of course, just destruction and/or disintegrate would be fine.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 04:29 PM
You don't need to be level 20 to use this trick. Shrink Item is a 3rd level spell, Permanency is 5th.

And if you're not level 20 yet, with all your tricks at your disposal... exercise caution when flying around everywhere, especially in a setting hostile to wizards. Common sense is free.

For the Oozes, how are your anti-casters controlling them? They are mindless, so they can't be trained.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 04:34 PM
Perhaps any caught in it are instantly killed as they go through many, many rounds of being hit with destruction, meteor swarm, disintegrate, and polar ray. They'd get a saving throw, but even if they succeed they should take lots of damage. Of course, just destruction and/or disintegrate would be fine.

I believe you normally only get one kind of spell per ooze. Now, each of the four oozes can be a different type of spell for fun.

Optimystik, according to...whichever book I read them in, control is based entirely on thumping the side of the ball(which you ride in) you want the ooze to go. The ooze associates vibration with food, and thus, travels that way. No intelligence required.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 04:36 PM
I believe you normally only get one kind of spell per ooze. Now, each of the four oozes can be a different type of spell for fun.

One of the example spells, the Living Blasphemy, Is made up of two spells.

Volkov
2010-02-24, 04:37 PM
I believe you normally only get one kind of spell per ooze. Now, each of the four oozes can be a different type of spell for fun.

Optimystik, according to...whichever book I read them in, control is based entirely on thumping the side of the ball(which you ride in) you want the ooze to go. The ooze associates vibration with food, and thus, travels that way. No intelligence required.

The glitterfire ooze is combination of fireball and glitterdust.

@Opti, awaken ooze, or use some feat I have heard about that lets you ride them and control them. Or you just point it in the direction of the wizard and it rampages throughout the land.

Add nondetection and other anti-divinitation spells to the mega ooze to help block divinitations.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-24, 04:39 PM
One of the example spells, the Living Blasphemy, Is made up of two spells.

Really....that is interesting. I'll probably keep it to a reasonable amount, on the basis of instantly killing the party not being a goal, but time stop in conjunction with a damage dealing spell COULD result in a rather high amount of damage...but granting the player more actions. I have to look at it a bit closer to see if that works or not, but possible interesting interactions between various spells are definitely out there.

One of them will be invisibility, just because it's awesome. So, the party will only see three at first.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 04:43 PM
One of them will be invisibility, just because it's awesome. So, the party will only see three at first.

Has to be an AoE spell.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 04:44 PM
Optimystik, according to...whichever book I read them in, control is based entirely on thumping the side of the ball(which you ride in) you want the ooze to go. The ooze associates vibration with food, and thus, travels that way. No intelligence required.

What stops it from devouring you instead? Sitting inside it should count as automatic engulfing.


@Opti, awaken ooze, or use some feat I have heard about that lets you ride them and control them. Or you just point it in the direction of the wizard and it rampages throughout the land.

Isn't Awaken Ooze Dragon material?

ArcanistSupreme
2010-02-24, 04:45 PM
For the Oozes, how are your anti-casters controlling them? They are mindless, so they can't be trained.

Perhaps add in some fluff that makes them hungry for/attracted to magic. If some crazy and powerful wizard is going to go through all of the trouble of putting this thing together, I think he might go the extra mile and research the spell that adds this to his oozey, mageslaying abomination. Not sure what level of spell it would be/specific mechanics, but hey, a wizard did it. :smalltongue:

Volkov
2010-02-24, 04:46 PM
What stops it from devouring you instead? Sitting inside it should count as automatic engulfing.



Isn't Awaken Ooze Dragon material?

You can make up the spell if you don't have dragon. It shouldn't be that hard considering that all awaken spells have more or less the same effect.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 04:46 PM
Perhaps add in some fluff that makes them hungry for/attracted to magic. If some crazy and powerful wizard is going to go through all of the trouble of putting this thing together, I think he might go the extra mile and research the spell that adds this to his oozey, mageslaying abomination. Not sure what level of spell it would be/specific mechanics, but hey, a wizard did it. :smalltongue:

There's a Rebuke Ooze Domain Granted Power.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 04:49 PM
Has to be an AoE spell.

Not quite - it can also be a spell that creates an effect. So rays will work (e.g. Living Disintegrate (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ls/20061026a)) as well as Orbs, etc.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-02-24, 04:49 PM
There's a Rebuke Ooze Domain Granted Power.

Or do that. Although this is also a potential counter-tactic in the hands of casters...

Volkov
2010-02-24, 04:58 PM
Or do that. Although this is also a potential counter-tactic in the hands of casters...

The suggested ooze would have a very high HD which makes destroying/controlling impossible and rebuking/turning difficult at best.

arguskos
2010-02-24, 05:09 PM
Amusingly, what if the Wizard breaks out a Living Spell of Ooze Puppet? :smalltongue:

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 05:10 PM
The suggested ooze would have a very high HD which makes destroying/controlling impossible and rebuking/turning difficult at best.

There are ways to reduce it's HD you know.

Volkov
2010-02-24, 05:25 PM
There are ways to reduce it's HD you know.

It includes anti-magic field as one of it's consistent spells, magical means won't do squat to it.

Sophismata
2010-02-24, 07:56 PM
Defeating an AMF even in core is laughably easy - look up Mordenkainen's Tinfoil Hat.

There is a difference between theory and practice. In theory, every wizard should have a quantum hat. In practice, I've yet to see a player do so. not everyone is filled with rampant paranoia that the DM is out to get them, and not every world is so naturally hostile that a Wizard needs every trick in the book to survive.



No.

...

Volkov
2010-02-24, 08:06 PM
Let's see what spells my super living spell is made up of.


Add nondetection, meteor swarm, polar ray, destruction, temporal stasis, disintegrate,, mordenkainen's disjunction and anti-magic field should do the trick, greater dispel magic, dispel evil, dispel law, dispel chaos, dispel good, dismissal, banishment, timestop, dimensional anchor, and dispel magic.

Now let's add Holy Aura, Unholy Aura, Shield of Law, Cloak of Chaos, Word of Chaos, Blasphemy, Dictum, Holy Word, Holy Smite, Unholy blight, Chaos Hammer, Order's wrath, Greater Shout, Shout, Flamestrike, Firestorm, Magic missile, Finger of Death, Plague of undeath, lightning bolt, chain lightning, cone of cold, ray of frost, scorching ray, fireball, delayed blast fireball, sunbeam, sunburst, acid splash, melf's acid arrow, shatter, storm of vengeance, hellball, and burning hands.

Now we got a real killer.

Thurbane
2010-02-24, 08:08 PM
Su abilities are generally ok.
Hmm, so how about a Binder with pumped up UMD? With the right vestiges, feat selections, gear and possibly level dips and/or PrCs, you could probably build a fairly decent caster hunter...

Thurbane
2010-02-24, 08:09 PM
Let's see what spells my super living spell is made up of.


Add nondetection, meteor swarm, polar ray, destruction, temporal stasis, disintegrate,, mordenkainen's disjunction and anti-magic field should do the trick, greater dispel magic, dispel evil, dispel law, dispel chaos, dispel good, dismissal, banishment, timestop, dimensional anchor, and dispel magic.

Now let's add Holy Aura, Unholy Aura, Shield of Law, Cloak of Chaos, Word of Chaos, Blasphemy, Dictum, Holy Word, Holy Smite, Unholy blight, Chaos Hammer, Order's wrath, Greater Shout, Shout, Flamestrike, Firestorm, Magic missile, Finger of Death, Plague of undeath, lightning bolt, chain lightning, cone of cold, ray of frost, scorching ray, fireball, delayed blast fireball, sunbeam, sunburst, acid splash, melf's acid arrow, shatter, storm of vengeance, hellball, and burning hands.

Now we got a real killer.
If you're going this far, how about just dropping the Ikea Tarrasque/Emerald Legion on them?

Volkov
2010-02-24, 08:15 PM
If you're going this far, how about just dropping the Ikea Tarrasque/Emerald Legion on them?

Why am I going this far? Because it's the most lethal jell-o ever. That's why.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-24, 08:19 PM
Don't forget the psion, ardent, or psychic warrior who uses metamorphosis to turn into a beholder (and guess what feat he took to get that antimagic cone?).

NiteCyper
2010-02-24, 08:20 PM
"Aright...here's the basic concept. Four man teams that exist and are trained specifically to hunt down and kill casters. In this world, they're NPCs...but they should be something to be feared. They have a belief system in which magic is evil, and thus, while they may be willing to use a slight amount of it towards the end goal of the destruction of magic"

A Quad?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizard%27s_First_Rule
"she is being hunted by a group of four men sent to assassinate her."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_of_the_Fold
"there is a force that, although it claims to be loyal to the Order, bows to no one, The Blood of the Fold. In his neverending search for banelings, what the Blood call those with some form of the gift"

http://www.google.ca/search?q=quad+sword+of+truth
http://sot.wikia.com/wiki/Quad
"A Quad was a specially trained group of four assassins from D'Hara assigned primarily to hunt down and kill Confessors."

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=qDT&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&ei=P9SFS_-uJ5WwsAOyx_XqDA&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CAsQBSgA&q=mordenkainen%27s+tinfoil+hat&spell=1
No results

Thurbane
2010-02-24, 08:32 PM
Why am I going this far? Because it's the most lethal jell-o ever. That's why.
Sounds delicious! :smallbiggrin:

Sophismata
2010-02-24, 09:08 PM
I'm surprised that Mord's Tinfoil Hat doesn't get more results, I've seen it more than once around here.

Anyway, let me try and do all four:


Paladin 4 (Tyranny / Freedom ACF, also CW Variant) / Crusader 1 / RKV 1 / Crusader 2 / RKV 2+

This guy is the group's leader. He specialises in Devoted Spirit and Shadow Hand manoeuvres, and goes for a lockdown build. Mage Slayer chain is optional. He alone is entrusted with an AMF item - either the torc or the one in the MIC. If the cost would ordinarily be too much, we justify it by stripping the group of most magical equipment, and movement that 'investment' to the AMF item.

If he takes the Serenity feat, you can focus Str and Wis. Otherwise, Cha instead of Wis. Con is still important, however, so there're a few MAD issues since he also needs decent Dex for his AoO's - and remember, he cannot rely on magic items :(.

He has masterwork mithral armour, masterwork weaponry and some form of reach. His class abilities are all (Ex), and assuming the group has done the research, it is this man (or woman)'s job to teleport right next to the arcane caster and kill it.

You could drop the AM field and just go for normal magical equipment - he becomes more powerful, but much less annoying scary for the casters.

At level 8, he can use TU attempts to recover manoeuvres.
At level 12, he gets Aura of Perfect Order.
At level 13, he can use TU attempts to gain swift actions. White Raven Tactics is a swift action, but don't abuse this.


Warblade 1 / Fighter 2/ Warblade 3 / Bloodstorm Blade 4 / Warblade X

This guy is your 'archer'. He takes two levels of Fighter for the BAB and bonus feats, and to offset the stance he gains at Warblade 4. Lightning Ricochet and Thunderous Throw are vital, so Bloodstorm Blade is taken before advancing Warblade further.

Focus Str and Con.

Again, masterwork equipment. If it is viable, give him cheap magical equipment over the other characters. He can stay back and throw ricocheting magical crap without (RAW) penalty, as far as I can tell. Flavour-wise, magical arms and armour could probably be considered a necessary sacrifice for the Greater Good. Fortunately, the man gets better-than-returning weapons as an (Ex).

At level 7, he can make all thrown attacks as melee attacks.
At level 9, all thrown attacks return instantly.
At level 10, he gains Iron Heart Surge and a 3rd level stance.


Ranger 1 / Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 / Swordsage X

Fairly straightforward swordsage build. He is the scout and tracker for the group. Favoured enemy should be arcarnists. He uses Tiger Claw manoeuvres, focusing on Dex and Wis, which also helps him hide and track. I'd recommend Shadow Blade, but you're very feat-heavy (what with TWF and all).

Avoid Desert Sun for the most part, a lot of those manoeuvres are (Su), and won't work in the party leader's AMF. This guy needs to get up close.

Level 1, he gets Track. You can take Able Learner to keep putting points in Survival, but I don't think you have the spare feats.
Level 2, he gets pounce.

...

Not sure about the last dude, sadly. I'd recommend an Ardent/Monk (with powers for gathering information and protecting allies from magic), but if Psionics is rare, it may not be as appropriate as the three suggestions above.

In any case, you've got 3 martial adepts - they very work well together, and aren't reliant on magic (or, at least, spellcasting). Should be quite flavourful, and suggests a dedicated training regime for whatever group doesn't like this magic crap.