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LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-24, 02:54 PM
I've been bouncing around in books, but have yet to find a lot of Psionic Undead. I mean there's what, three of them?

And plus, my favorite undead, Brain in a Jar, has no Player stats when in reality, this is probably the closest thing to a Demilich

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-24, 03:05 PM
There should be at least one online (WotC's Mind's Eye articles).



Psionics and Undead aren't that linked. I mean, Necromancy is really infamous, but you rarely ever hear about a psychic raising the dead. It's just not that common in fantasy.

Thalnawr
2010-02-24, 03:13 PM
I'm AFB, but isn't there a Psionic Lich in Hyperconscious?

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 03:15 PM
I'm AFB, but isn't there a Psionic Lich in Hyperconscious?

There's a psionic lich in D&D. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030628b)

CockroachTeaParty
2010-02-24, 03:15 PM
The Euralden Eye is online at WotC, I believe. I psionic undead.

Then there's the Caller in Darkness... that psionic lich-thing... Yeah, there's not a lot of them.

I can't remember, but in 3.0 weren't undead unable to use psionics, period? Or at least, they couldn't use psychometabolism powers, since they did not have a CON score.

Thalnawr
2010-02-24, 03:20 PM
There's a psionic lich in D&D. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030628b)

Yeah, but that's 3.0 psionics, and should be thrown into a wood-chipper... I was talking about a template that basically does the same thing the MM lich template does, but psionic.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 03:31 PM
Yeah, but that's 3.0 psionics, and should be thrown into a wood-chipper... I was talking about a template that basically does the same thing the MM lich template does, but psionic.

Unlike some other 3.0 PrCs, that one isn't hard to convert. (That doesn't make it good, but hey.)

If it's just the phylactery part you want, any psion can do that. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm) (Though it'll cost a feat for non-shapers.)

erikun
2010-02-24, 03:35 PM
There is the Illithid Lich, the Alhoon (Lords of Madness). It is specifically stated as being a lich created with psionic powers.

The Caller of Darkness (Expanded Psionics Handbook) and Spectral Savant (Complete Psionic) are also psionic undead, and you can add the Phrenic template (EPH) to any undead with a mind.

Beyond that, psionics and undead don't mix much. It certainly wouldn't be too strange to run into a Psion Ghost, for example, but the two themes don't seem to run into each other very often. (I notice more psionic demons than psionic undead.)

Thalnawr
2010-02-24, 03:47 PM
If it's just the phylactery part you want, any psion can do that. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm) (Though it'll cost a feat for non-shapers.)
The only problem with that power is that it doesn't stop you from dying of old age eventually, unless you're already an Elan or something similiar.


Astral Seed:
To grow a body, you (in the storage crystal) must spend ten days in uninterrupted solitude. The body’s constituent parts are pulled as ectoplasm from the Astral Plane, then slowly molded and transformed into a living, breathing body that is an exact duplicate of your body at the time you manifested astral seed (the crystal itself breaks down and becomes a part of the new organic body).

The important part is underlined, your original age is part of the duplication process.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 03:53 PM
The only problem with that power is that it doesn't stop you from dying of old age eventually, unless you're already an Elan or something similiar.

There's another power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm) to deal with that.

Thalnawr
2010-02-24, 04:04 PM
There's another power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm) to deal with that.
Right, so a Telepath with EK (Astral Seed) can do this starting at ECL 18, and everyone else has to wait till epic. Or you have a GM who allows Hyperconscious, and you can do it at ECL11 like normal liches. The only advantage I can see to doing it with Astral Seed and True Mind Switch is that you can still enjoy a cup of coffee while being effectively immortal.

Volkov
2010-02-24, 04:06 PM
There is the Illithid Lich, the Alhoon (Lords of Madness). It is specifically stated as being a lich created with psionic powers.

The Caller of Darkness (Expanded Psionics Handbook) and Spectral Savant (Complete Psionic) are also psionic undead, and you can add the Phrenic template (EPH) to any undead with a mind.

Beyond that, psionics and undead don't mix much. It certainly wouldn't be too strange to run into a Psion Ghost, for example, but the two themes don't seem to run into each other very often. (I notice more psionic demons than psionic undead.)

No, Alhoons are created when a Mind Flayer focuses on magic so much that the rest of the community considers him an abomination and kicks him out. Because the idea of the mind flayer afterlife is their brains joining with the elder brain (which in reality destroys them and causes them to be utterly consumed in mind and soul, giving the elder brain 20xp in the process) they seek immortality through lichdom.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 04:40 PM
Right, so a Telepath with EK (Astral Seed) can do this starting at ECL 18, and everyone else has to wait till epic. Or you have a GM who allows Hyperconscious, and you can do it at ECL11 like normal liches. The only advantage I can see to doing it with Astral Seed and True Mind Switch is that you can still enjoy a cup of coffee while being effectively immortal.

Not everyone - Elans can enjoy their coffee just fine. (Psiforged can't, but presumably don't care.)

You can do this trick before level 18 too - you just need 19 Int, an item with TMS and a ML check. Even if you fail, you just suffer brainburn and can try again later.

KillianHawkeye
2010-02-24, 05:01 PM
I can't remember, but in 3.0 weren't undead unable to use psionics, period? Or at least, they couldn't use psychometabolism powers, since they did not have a CON score.

Psychometabolism was Strength. I think Con was for Psychokinesis.

Thalnawr
2010-02-24, 05:07 PM
Not everyone - Elans can enjoy their coffee just fine. (Psiforged can't, but presumably don't care.)

You can do this trick before level 18 too - you just need 19 Int, an item with TMS and a ML check. Even if you fail, you just suffer brainburn and can try again later.
Not quite. You must also have the power on your class list, so if your class is Shaper, you don't have TMS on your list. You'd have to use Use Psionic Device, to emulate being a Telepath first.


By Power Stones:
Additionally, the user must meet the following requirements.
The user must have the power on his or her class list.
The user must have the requisite key ability score.

If the user meets these requirements and has a manifester level at least equal to the power’s manifester level, she can automatically manifest the stored power without a check. If she meets both requirements but her own level is lower than the power stone’s manifester level, she has to make a manifester level check (1d20 + user’s level), against a DC equal to the power stone’s manifester level +1, to manifest the power successfully. On a failure, the user must succeed on a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid brainburn (see below). A natural roll of 1 on this check is always a failure.
Granted, it's only a DC 34 check, and UPD is a class skill for shapers, but it's not exactly as cut and dry as it looks at first glance.

Optimystik
2010-02-24, 05:39 PM
Not quite. You must also have the power on your class list, so if your class is Shaper, you don't have TMS on your list. You'd have to use Use Psionic Device, to emulate being a Telepath first.

So your options are:

a) Be a Telepath, Elan (any), or Psiforged (any), and pick up Astral Seed with Expanded Knowledge.

b) get UPD/UMD by another means.

Thalnawr
2010-02-24, 05:55 PM
So your options are:

a) Be a Telepath, Elan (any), or Psiforged (any), and pick up Astral Seed with Expanded Knowledge.

b) get UPD/UMD by another means.
That's what it's looking like. Or perhaps an Ardent could do this without any fuss, with the ACF that allows them to reshape their mantles.

Jack_Simth
2010-02-24, 06:11 PM
Well... under Magic/Psionics transparencey, magic and Psionics work the same way - so a Psionic Lich is an evil psionic character with Craft Wondrous Universal Item, and a Caster Manifester Level of 12, who spent the 120,000 gp and 4,800 xp (and, by extension of the crafting rules for magical/psionic items, 240 eight-hour days...) to make a sealed metal box full of strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed crystals on which the psionic character has imprinted his soul.

AbyssKnight
2010-02-24, 06:25 PM
I actually think undead (or at least incorporeal undead) goes very well with psionics thematically. Something along the lines of "the mind unburdened by the flesh."

I imagine a Ghost Psion/Master of the Unseen Hand teaching a whole school of Psion Uncarnates. Perhaps some Unbodied as assistant professors. The library is a big room full of Brain-In-A-Jars.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-24, 06:27 PM
The only problem with that power is that it doesn't stop you from dying of old age eventually, unless you're already an Elan or something similiar.



The important part is underlined, your original age is part of the duplication process.Well, there ARE ways around it. Add necropolitan to the mix (with a few well-chosen powers) and you might as well be a lich.

Jack_Simth
2010-02-24, 06:27 PM
I actually think undead (or at least incorporeal undead) goes very well with psionics thematically. Something along the lines of "the mind unburdened by the flesh."

I imagine a Ghost Psion/Master of the Unseen Hand teaching a whole school of Psion Uncarnates. Perhaps some Unbodied as assistant professors. The library is a big room full of Brain-In-A-Jars.
Eh, Wilders make better ghosts than do Psions (due to the charisma base). But yeah, nothing stopping a ghost Psion (unless the Psion REALLY dumped Charisma...).

AbyssKnight
2010-02-24, 06:46 PM
Okay, granted, should have said Wilder. But still.....

I like the idea of psionic (incorporeal) undead.

Sophismata
2010-02-24, 07:38 PM
The important part is underlined, your original age is part of the duplication process.



To grow a body, you (in the storage crystal) must spend ten days in uninterrupted solitude. The body’s constituent parts are pulled as ectoplasm from the Astral Plane, then slowly molded and transformed into a living, breathing body that is an exact duplicate of your body at the time you manifested astral seed (the crystal itself breaks down and becomes a part of the new organic body).

Astral Seed will, on the plus side, make you effectively immortal - but if fixes you in the timestream. If you manifest it, go out and gain 4 levels, then get killed, welcome to 5 levels ago. Maximum age is, however, not a concern.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-02-24, 07:40 PM
Psychometabolism was Strength. I think Con was for Psychokinesis.

Ah, yes, you are correct. Still, it would make more sense for an undead to be unable to alter their own dead flesh, if they were unable to use any psionic discipline.

Oh, 3.0 psionics. So very wacky. Talk about MAD...

Volkov
2010-02-24, 07:50 PM
Ah, yes, you are correct. Still, it would make more sense for an undead to be unable to alter their own dead flesh, if they were unable to use any psionic discipline.

Oh, 3.0 psionics. So very wacky. Talk about MAD...
There's a reason why 3.5 was largely considered to be a much needed revision.

Jack_Simth
2010-02-24, 08:39 PM
Astral Seed will, on the plus side, make you effectively immortal - but if fixes you in the timestream. If you manifest it, go out and gain 4 levels, then get killed, welcome to 5 levels ago. Maximum age is, however, not a concern.
The "welcome to five levels ago" bit requires a very particular table-specific bit. Namely, that your level is controlled by your body, rather than soul/mind/whatever.

When you consider that with the Mind Switch (and it's True counterpart) power, the levels go with the mind, rather than the body, that particular table-specific bit might be slightly difficult to support.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-24, 09:10 PM
Unfortunately, astral seed is abusable. Mind switch or metamorphosis into something, manifest astral seed, and then commit seppuku (preferably in such a way as to leave your WBL untapped).

Congratulations; you just came back as a 12-headed hydra.

T.G. Oskar
2010-02-24, 10:13 PM
Wasn't there a lich equivalent on the Forbidden Book of Psychic Bipolarity?

Spectral Savant is Undead, and effectively the equivalent of Liches, as well as 3.5. Worse, they can be...good?

Jack_Simth
2010-02-24, 10:23 PM
Unfortunately, astral seed is abusable. Mind switch or metamorphosis into something, manifest astral seed, and then commit seppuku (preferably in such a way as to leave your WBL untapped).

Congratulations; you just came back as a 12-headed hydra.

Mind you:
It still costs you a level to do that... but I never saw that loophole before. Interesting. Shaper-15 with Expanded Knowledge for Mind Switch (Telepath-6, so totally doable) manifests Astral Seed after borrowing a shape (only needs ten minutes) comes out in an arbitrary form, complete with all Ex abilities. With the Mind Switch method, you'll need to target something that's not immune to mind-affecting stuff, and for sanity's sake, you'll want to target something that doesn't have a resurrection limitation (or not; you've got Astral Seed, which has no such limitation on what it can bring back). Huh. That's... very interesting.

Sophismata
2010-02-24, 10:23 PM
When you consider that with the Mind Switch (and it's True counterpart) power, the levels go with the mind, rather than the body, that particular table-specific bit might be slightly difficult to support.

Oh, yes, you're right. Also, ageing is actually beneficial - manifest Astral Seed, age 3 categories, die, and remake yourself without the physical penalties.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-02-24, 10:26 PM
Dying Breath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52156) and Insomnus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11309) are a couple of my own psionic undead creations.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-02-24, 10:28 PM
There's a reason why 3.5 was largely considered to be a much needed revision.

The XPH was what made me switch to 3.5 in the first place. First 3.5 book I ever bought.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-02-24, 10:30 PM
The XPH was what made me switch to 3.5 in the first place. First 3.5 book I ever bought.
Huh, same here. I was a complete 2nd edder until it came out.

Jack_Simth
2010-02-24, 10:34 PM
Oh, yes, you're right. Also, ageing is actually beneficial - manifest Astral Seed, age 3 categories, die, and remake yourself without the physical penalties.
Actually, no - I'm wrong. I just re-read the power. It does specify that you've got all your abilities, minus one level, as of the time you manifested Astral Seed.

Fortunately, Astral Seed costs no XP to manifest, so you just manifest it again every level (you can only have one in existence at a time ... so you track down and destroy your previous one when you're ready to build the next)

Flickerdart
2010-02-24, 10:53 PM
That still wastes a useful power known for everyone but an Erudite.

Jack_Simth
2010-02-24, 10:59 PM
That still wastes a useful power known for everyone but an Erudite.

Shapers can avoid that too.

See, you use the 4th level power Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) once each level. Every time you level, you take Astral Seed as a power known (assuming you're a shaper). After, you use Psychic Reformation to undo that choice.

So you just spend a 4th level power known, and 50 xp/level.

If you're a Shaper.

Flickerdart
2010-02-24, 11:01 PM
That's wasting XP, and requires you to waste another power. Granted, Reformation is useful (and not Shaper-specific) but still.

Jack_Simth
2010-02-24, 11:03 PM
That's wasting XP, and requires you to waste another power. Granted, Reformation is useful (and not Shaper-specific) but still.

It's also a much lower-level power choice. And it's only 50 xp per level, at a level where you're looking at 15,000 + to get to the next level. Bucket, meet drop. Meanwhile, it's insurance against needing to pay for a resurrection spell (and will deal with ANY cause of death... as long as it's actual Death, rather than permanent entrapment).

Sophismata
2010-02-24, 11:20 PM
Actually, no - I'm wrong.

Okay - I think this is a candidate for the strangest internet argument, ever.

Jack_Simth
2010-02-25, 05:54 PM
Okay - I think this is a candidate for the strangest internet argument, ever.
What, people don't change their minds, and/or admit it when they've found themselves to be incorrect? Or is it that both arguing parties did so?

Optimystik
2010-02-25, 06:11 PM
Technically, any creature that has levels in a psionic class is a psionic creature - so just be a Necropolitan Psion. Problem solved.