PDA

View Full Version : Paladin/rogue



Heliomance
2010-02-25, 06:38 PM
I have this character concept, of a small time criminal - pickpocket, con artist, whatever - who then got religion and became a paladin. Unfortunately, rogue and paladin really don't play well together - rogue relies on the only two skills a paladin can dump. Is there any way to make it work, and still be effective?

Starbuck_II
2010-02-25, 06:46 PM
I have this character concept, of a small time criminal - pickpocket, con artist, whatever - who then got religion and became a paladin. Unfortunately, rogue and paladin really don't play well together - rogue relies on the only two skills a paladin can dump. Is there any way to make it work, and still be effective?

Which:
Open lock? Not against code
Bluff? Paladins can bluff (even lie) only gross violations count against you. But yes, you could just stop doing it if this is iffy.
Pick Pocket? Not against code.

Ryuuk
2010-02-25, 06:47 PM
I think he meant ability scores.

Rogues being DEX+INT
Paladins being STR+CON+WIS+CHA

Heliomance
2010-02-25, 06:47 PM
Abilities. I meant abilities. Int and Dex.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-25, 06:50 PM
Dex is useful for everyone (Init).

What level are you planning to be Rogue to pally??

Ryuuk
2010-02-25, 06:51 PM
Well, you could simply rough it. At +8 Skills from the rogue you can afford to leave it at 10 , you would just have to specialize, being more a Paladin with a spash of Rogue with regards to skills.

As for Dex, you would only lose Evasion, I think. If it's an acceptable lose, take the Heavy Armor and build the rest of your array as if it were a Paladin.

Heliomance
2010-02-25, 06:52 PM
It's a level 3 game, so early. PbP, so I don't know how likely we are to level. I considered Devoted Inquisitor, which would let me keep taking levels in rogue if I wanted to later.

Ryuuk
2010-02-25, 06:55 PM
Rogue 1 / Paladin 2 ?

This would probably be your best bet, with rogue only giving you 1d6 sneak attack and a load of skill points at first. If you can really on heavy armor, you can work with a lower Dex.

Thurbane
2010-02-25, 07:10 PM
I'm pretty sure there is a feat (maybe Dragon Mag or Complete Scoundrel) that let some Rogue and Paladin abilities stack...

Heliomance
2010-02-25, 07:17 PM
Devoted Inquisitor, Complete Scoundrel, lets you daze an enemy hit with both smite and sneak attack, and lets you multiclass freely between them.

On second thoughts, I'm considering Crusader instead of Paladin, but I have no experience with ToB. Would that be easier to make work?

Frosty
2010-02-25, 07:27 PM
Then go Swordsage instead of Rogue. Still lots of tasty skills...

Gnaeus
2010-02-25, 07:30 PM
Yes, Crusader is easier and generally better than paladin for most things. Crusader rogue, swordsage rogue, or crusader swordsage all are playable.

Gan The Grey
2010-02-25, 07:34 PM
If I made a Pal/Rog, I'd dump Strength, pump Dex, Con, Char, wear light armor, and focus on feinting in combat to beat the bu-jebbus outta people. I might look into feats that convert Turn Undead attempts into useful bonuses eventually.

On the most common thing your character won't be able to sneak attack, undead, you can instead spend smite evils to dust them.

I'm sure someone with more patience with the books can expound upon my idea.

Heliomance
2010-02-25, 07:39 PM
Then go Swordsage instead of Rogue. Still lots of tasty skills...

Swordsage doesn't have even a little bit the same flavour as a rogue. A swordsage is a skilled fighter with a mystical flair. I want a small time criminal.

However, having looked over the Crusader, I think I'll go for it if the DM allows it. Probably with a fairly heavy focus on Devoted Spirit. It's a post-apocalyptic setting, and I really want him to have the attitude of protecting other people from the wibbly crap that's suddenly happening.

Thurbane
2010-02-25, 07:42 PM
Devoted Inquisitor, Complete Scoundrel, lets you daze an enemy hit with both smite and sneak attack, and lets you multiclass freely between them.
There's also Sacred Outlaw (Dragon Mag) that lets rogue levels and cleric levels stack for Turning Undead and Sneak Attack. I'm pretty sure it would work for a paladin high enough level to turn undead.

Amphetryon
2010-02-25, 07:59 PM
Check Nightsong Infiltrator (CAd, I think) and Shadowbane Inquisitor/Stalker for PrCs that work well with Rogue/Pally. Ranged Smite seems a likely candidate to reduce MAD.

ericgrau
2010-02-25, 08:05 PM
There's no reason why you can't be a strength based rogue instead of a dex based rogue. At least for combat. Dumping int makes you take a hit, but you can manage. There are a lot of good cha, str and wis based skills you can focus on, and you can still do ok on the int and dex skills if you really need any.

Turn undead is going to suck. Getting a good sneak attack trigger will be a minor issue because you won't want to spend so much on something that only gives a couple d6's or so. If you have another party member that also likes to flank then that could help.

Pluto
2010-02-26, 02:39 AM
Shadowbane Inquisitor (CAd) and Greyguard (CSc) are made for this. Both are pretty weak (comprable to straight Pally levels), but they're designed specifically for this.

Shadowbane Stalker (CAd) is one of the most fun classes I've played. I've only done it with Rogue/Cleric entry, but Rogue/Paladin shouldn't be too different until high levels (it'll probably even be more powerful until around level 10 in a lowish optimization group).

Ruby Knight Vindicator (ToB), on the other hand, is an outrageously powerful class that essentially does the same thing. Grab a couple Shadow Hand maneuvers and you've got the same archetype with a whole lot of oomph.

Grumman
2010-02-26, 02:48 AM
How about Scout with the Cityscape Web Enhancement ACFs to represent the Rogue side (giving you Skirmish instead of Sneak Attack), then use Paladin with Charging Smite?

BigBadBugbear
2010-02-26, 02:55 AM
and verry important: UMD

Heliomance
2010-02-26, 03:13 AM
I've never actually used UMD. I hear it's the god-skill, but I've had a couple of characters who had ranks in it and they never used it. Ever.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-26, 07:42 AM
I've never actually used UMD. I hear it's the god-skill, but I've had a couple of characters who had ranks in it and they never used it. Ever.

The importance is many spells (shield, True Strike, Fist of Stone, etc) are personal and can't be cast on others. UMD lets that person who has that effect be you.

Fist of Stone cost 25 gp for +6 str (though only on one hand and for chance to hit not damage unless using slam attack). +3 to hit for a minute minimum is a godsend at level 1-10 (still good at level 11 but not as much).

Jayngfet
2010-02-26, 07:57 AM
Shadowbane stuff is tailormade to this, and for flavor I'd reccomend complete scoundrel.

Lemmingboy
2010-02-26, 08:00 AM
I had a Paladin/Rogue in a party I was running a campaign for. I'm not totally sure what his ability scores were set at, but the overall character worked well. At a guess I'd say:

-Str 10/12

-Decent dex of 14-16

-Either 8 or 10 for con (he always liked to play it close)

-Int 13 for combat expertise

-Wis only 11, to be upped later

-and anything else into Cha.

I the first thing he bought was a Mwk mithral breastplate, to give good armour and high dex capability. We were using 30 point buy to give a more epic feel to the thing.

He was also immensely difficult to kill. So I got him to kill himself (trap worked better than I'd hoped).

Person_Man
2010-02-26, 09:35 AM
There's also nothing stopping you from playing a Paladin 3 and saying that you grew up as an orphan criminal whatever, or play a Rogue 3 devoted to a Paladin code of ethics. Or you could play a re-fluffed Crusader, Swordsage, Beguiler, Factotum, Incarnate, or Psychic Rogue. Any of them would be a good option.

Ossian
2010-02-26, 09:48 AM
The "martial" rogue variant from Unearthed Arcana worked pretty well with a few NPCs of mine and one of the best played PCs I have had the honor to DM.

HERE (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue)

You lose sneak attack, but if you are in heavy armor you don't really care, but you get lots of nice feats, and the ton of skill points the rogue has at level 1.

Up to 4 levels of rogue this way mean 8+1+0 (int bonus) x4 = 36+9+9+9=63 SKILL POINTS and 4 fighter's feats at the cost of just 1 point of BAB. If you do

ROG 1
PAL 1
PAL 2
ROG 2
ROG 3
ROG 4
etc...

You even get the Weapon focus + Weapon Specialization (I am assuming the rogue having access to the fighter's Bonus Feats is treated as a fighter of same level for the purposes of qualifying for a feat).

A good medium armor still gets you a nice AC and uses the Dex, and a Rogue has lots of social skills that benefit from the Pally's high CHA.

Con would be nice, and I would favor it over strength.

Int can be +0

M.

Scipio
2010-02-26, 11:35 AM
Which:
Open lock? Not against code
Bluff? Paladins can bluff (even lie) only gross violations count against you. But yes, you could just stop doing it if this is iffy.
Pick Pocket? Not against code.

Actually the paladin code is pretty specific about lying.


Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladinís code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

lsfreak
2010-02-26, 11:54 AM
Agree with Person_Man. Stay a rogue, say you're a paladin. You don't have to take a class to fill the archetype. Sneak attack is partly you knowing where to hit, partly divine insight into the nature of evil. Rogue special abilities or avenger/assassin spells are now proof of your deity's support for your cause, a bit of divine intervention when you need it. And so on.

Runestar
2010-02-26, 06:58 PM
Is there some way of giving your rogue a more divine bent?

Complete champion has some divine-themed rogue abilities, but they don't seem too inspiring

Splendor
2010-02-27, 10:34 AM
See if you can take the Alternative class feature for rogues from Dungeonscape (pg 13) you lose trap sense and gain Penetrating Strike; Whenever you flank a creature that is immune to extra damage from sneak attacks, you still deal extra
damage equal to half your normal sneak attack dice.

hamishspence
2010-02-27, 01:13 PM
Actually the paladin code is pretty specific about lying.

The important part is that only gross violations of the Code cause paladins to Fall.

A lie is always a violation of the code, but depending on the player and the DM, lies may mostly count as "minor violations" rather than "gross violations" - and thus, not cause an immediate Fall.

In War & XPs bonus strips, two paladins lie to Miko, and don't fall.

So, for at least some DMs, lying does not cause immediate Falling.

Flickerdart
2010-02-27, 01:23 PM
Paladin of Freedom gets Bluff as a class skill (instead of Diplomacy) and can lie to their heart's content.

Soranar
2010-02-27, 02:20 PM
Rogue 1/Paladin 2

Race: Strongheart Halfling

1 Rogue weapon focus hand crossbow (counts as weapon focus and rapid reload), crossbow sniper (add 1/2 your Dex bonus to damage with crossbows)
2 Paladin
3 Paladin ranged smite

1 problem is that you need BAB +1 to take weapon focus, so you'd have to take a Paladin level first, but paladin doesn't let you multiclass unless you take a special feat (devoted inquisitor in this case), and it goes against your concept so you'd need permission from your DM

STATS (32 pts buy)

STR 6
DEX 18
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 8 (I suggest you take the holy warrior variant which makes wisdom useless since you don't cast spells, paladin spells aren't very good with ranged weapons anyway)
CHA 16

better for you to take a lighter armor to be able to sneak around and use your Dex for something (also much cheaper armor)

Greenish
2010-02-27, 02:41 PM
Rogue 1/Paladin 2

Race: Strongheart Halfling

1 Rogue weapon focus hand crossbow (counts as weapon focus and rapid reload), crossbow sniper (add 1/2 your Dex bonus to damage with crossbows)
2 Paladin
3 Paladin ranged smite

1 problem is that you need BAB +1 to take weapon focus, so you'd have to take a Paladin level first, but paladin doesn't let you multiclass unless you take a special feat (devoted inquisitor in this case), and it goes against your concept so you'd need permission from your DM

STATS (32 pts buy)

STR 6
DEX 18
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 8 (I suggest you take the holy warrior variant which makes wisdom useless since you don't cast spells, paladin spells aren't very good with ranged weapons anyway)
CHA 16

better for you to take a lighter armor to be able to sneak around and use your Dex for something (also much cheaper armor)You're not contributing much to combat with that, are you? I mean, 1d3 + 1/2 dex (+1d6)? Then -4 to hit when the targets are in melee until you can build up that archery feat tree.

Soranar
2010-02-27, 03:53 PM
You're not contributing much to combat with that, are you? I mean, 1d3 + 1/2 dex (+1d6)? Then -4 to hit when the targets are in melee until you can build up that archery feat tree.

Trying to work with the build, but at level 3 there isn't much you can do with dex based builds that multiclass into paladin

-He already said he won't take swordsage instead of rogue (so no shadow blade/weapon finesse deal)

-you need 4 feats to get the same result without swordsage, so unless flaws are allowed he'll be able to hit something and kill it by level 6 while playing a human/halfling , (martial study, martial maneuver, shadow blade, weapon finesse)

The weapons are limited too so no help there

-the only other way to get DEX to damage is the crossbow as far as I know (there are non-WOTC material like the variant fighter but he wants paladin/rogue)

finally, of course a STR based build is better, but the point was to work with the options given

Ravens_cry
2010-02-27, 04:01 PM
The important part is that only gross violations of the Code cause paladins to Fall.

A lie is always a violation of the code, but depending on the player and the DM, lies may mostly count as "minor violations" rather than "gross violations" - and thus, not cause an immediate Fall.

In War & XPs bonus strips, two paladins lie to Miko, and don't fall.

So, for at least some DMs, lying does not cause immediate Falling.
No, but it adds up. There is a difference between a lie, still not a good thing, and making a habit of it. One is an occasional slip you should do your utmost to avoid, the other is concerted disregard for others.
And that is fall worthy, in my opinion.

hamishspence
2010-02-27, 04:06 PM
Lying is generally portrayed in D&D as shaky but sometimes justifiable.

While Defenders of the Faith suggests that lying is forbidden to paladins because it is evil, BoVD states it is "not inherently evil, but risky"

On the law-chaos axis, occasional chaotic acts don't change your alignment, though making a habit of them might.

Champions of Ruin uses a similar approach for all evil acts. Once the character has made a habit of them, doing them "routinely" their alignment will be Evil, rather than Neutral- regardless of how much Good they do as well.

A paladin instantaneously falls for any Evil act or any "gross" breach of the Code- however, if telling a lie is not considered to be Evil, or a gross breach, under the right circumstances, there will be no Fall.

However, if you take the view that lying is a minor Evil act rather than specifically Chaotic, even a paladin of Freedom, will fall for it.

Curmudgeon
2010-02-27, 04:45 PM
Is there some way of giving your rogue a more divine bent?
I suggest going as a Rogue/martial Cleric. Paladin, except for their special mount (which only is available starting at level 5, and then for limited duration), has a lot of overlap with Cleric. Definitely use Sacred Outlaw (Dragon # 357, page 86). Pick appropriate domains, like War and Protection. You can convert the latter domain to Protection Devotion (Complete Champion). You won't have exactly the same abilities as the standard Paladin, but you'll be pretty similar in spirit.

Heliomance
2010-02-27, 05:42 PM
Incidentally, I was wrong - it's level 4, not 3. I might go and dump int and dex to a certain extent, and fluff him as having been more of a thug than a conman or pickpocket before his change of heart.

Soranar
2010-02-27, 05:55 PM
Incidentally, I was wrong - it's level 4, not 3. I might go and dump int and dex to a certain extent, and fluff him as having been more of a thug than a conman or pickpocket before his change of heart.

A thug would be a lot simpler

you could the thug variant (x4 skillpoints)
or even a bard if you can to keep the conman thing, the stats overlap better too and the skillpoints are similar (justify the alignment change with your change of heart)
a straight fighter can be thuggish too