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Damon_Caskey
2010-02-26, 09:11 AM
Another from my archives gets retyped. Meet the ultimate grappling machine:

"Kronk smash stupid hooomans!"

Kronk The Pillager, a mighty Orc barbarian has found yet another remote village to terrorize. He strides forward, relishing the screams to come and boldly kicks down the town's rickety gate. And that's where things went wrong for Kronk. Standing there is not some middling rabble of conscript guards, but a freakish mountain of man, at least 30 stones, maybe more. The man lifts up a leg and brings it down hard, shaking the ground while eying Kronk with an unnerving gaze.

"Uh oh... Kronk in deep s***...!"

Kronk just had his first (and probably last) encounter with a Rikishi (http://www.caskeys.com/arc/fantasy/wiki/index.php?title=Rikishi).

Ashtagon
2010-02-26, 10:52 AM
Acrobatics?

I'd give them a hefty bonus on being overrun, something similar to the dwarf's racial ability. But Acrobatics makes no sense at all. Yes, I know that skill covers some of the stuff these guys can do, but these guys can't do everything (or even most of what) the skill covers; the PF skill is too broad in scope.

You also have six prerequisite feats. Unless pathfinder has changed how many feats you get radically, that's quite a high level requirement just to qualify. What's the fastest that a character could qualify for this class?

Chankonabe: I'd change this to powerful build (or a size increase only if the character has powerful build as a default racial feature). A size increase does, after all, mean a literal 50%+ increase in height.

Damon_Caskey
2010-02-26, 11:05 AM
Acrobatics?

I'd give them a hefty bonus on being overrun, something similar to the dwarf's racial ability. But Acrobatics makes no sense at all. Yes, I know that skill covers some of the stuff these guys can do, but these guys can't do everything (or even most of what) the skill covers; the PF skill is too broad in scope.

The Acrobatics check used to be a Balance check, but that skill was rolled into Acrobatics for Pathfinder. I too think that's a bit broad and it's just there until I can think of something better. It was probably the one and only time I found D&D's overly fragmented skills more useful then Pathfinder's wide scope style.



You also have six prerequisite feats. Unless pathfinder has changed how many feats you get radically, that's quite a high level requirement just to qualify. What's the fastest that a character could qualify for this class?


Pathfinder gives you a feat every other level. Getting to this PrC shouldn't be a problem. A Fighter can do it by level 6.



Chankonabe: I'd change this to powerful build (or a size increase only if the character has powerful build as a default racial feature).

Neither of those would have the right flavor or overall function I'm going for. A sumo (at least the stereotypical one) isn't just bigger... he's BIGGER, and the class should reflect this.


A size increase does, after all, mean a literal 50%+ increase in height.

Says who? I can't find anything that dictates how size is distributed. If that were the case, Dwarfs would be as tall as humans, horses would be 10' at the shoulder, and so on.

DC

Admiral Squish
2010-02-26, 11:12 AM
This seems very plain. I mean, REALLY plain. Every ability is 'you get +class level to X'.

Also, powerful build is basically the same thing as size large in terms of effects, the only difference being he doesn't get reach, which makes sense. Did his arms get longer? No. He's just tubby. Plus 'increases one category in size with appropriate bonuses' could be interpreted as gaining the size increase stat bonuses from the MM. +8 strength for free, assuming you're medium.

Damon_Caskey
2010-02-26, 11:26 AM
This seems very plain. I mean, REALLY plain. Every ability is 'you get +class level to X'.


I'll admit that. Personally I'm a fan of formulaic boosts. Cool static abilities are nice an all, but unless they are really creative you run into one of three issues: Too good at low level, appropriate at low level but then useless, or given out at end game when you can't use them anyway. Formulas can be given at low level to play with and then they grow as you do.

Still, I understand your point and agree with you. Problem is, grappling rules are already well established, and there are a LOT of them; just about enough to cover anything the player would want to try. Unless you want to break game consistency, there isn't a whole lot you can do beyond giving bonuses. Unless you just hand out feats... which is even more boring, and adds the insult of not scaling.

Maybe I can look into some more manipulation tricks or some such, throwing them into this or that square, adding some special effects on the opponent or whatever. Just have to find a way to do it without creating a self contained rule set. I hate that kind of crap because it doesn't insert well.



Also, powerful build is basically the same thing as size large in terms of effects, the only difference being he doesn't get reach, which makes sense. Did his arms get longer? No. He's just tubby. Plus 'increases one category in size with appropriate bonuses' could be interpreted as gaining the size increase stat bonuses from the MM. +8 strength for free, assuming you're medium.

I'll look into it a bit. I'm aware of the stat bonuses and getting them was intentional... but it was my understanding they were only +4. A nice, but not overwhelming boost to go with the other bonuses for grappling by being bigger. The idea is that it was offset slightly by the fact you are you know, big, and thus take up more squares and are easier to hit.

Whatever I do though, can't include "Powerful Build" as a feat hand out. I never reference anything that can't be looked up in an OGC SRD.

DC

Mulletmanalive
2010-02-26, 12:40 PM
This is me asking as an actual studen of Japanese. Transliterated Japanese is meaningless and I mean that in the kindest way possible. Tekken has at least two meanings i can think of because it's an On reading and you can build those in loads of ways.

Please, if you're going to use words that have no meaning out of context, translate them too.

On the class itself, Why no armour? I can't see it actually getting in the way and i have seen pictures of similar looking chaps in armour [woodcuts but i forget where from].

He could do with some non-passive abilities. Abilities that you have to choose to use and preferable think about how you're going to use them are far more interesting than static bonuses. As it is, this is just...mechanically stale. No planning, no variation, just the same basic grapple checks every round [not that Grappling isn't more varied than sword swinging but still].

I'd suggest any or all of the following, to your taste Trample: the ability to knock down and step on a target using an Overrun. Deals unarmed damage

Dungeoncrasher: The sumo slams the target into a wall and crushes him with his body. Target takes 4d6+double strength damage from this.

Improved Dungeoncrasher: as above but 8d6 + double strength.

Choke Hold: Extra Grapple move, causes Suffocation and the target must save of Panic each round.

Oddly, Blood and Fists doesn't list any Trademark Manoeuvres...i'm now out of ideas unfortunately. Anyway, as i said before, Translation, more conscious decisions and maybe more of an area control aspect. Your fluff seems to be leading to that while the core class is a brute hitter [it does it well, but like the Pathfinder Fighter, isn't hugely interesting while it's doing it].

EDIT: Powerful Build is a race quality. Look up Half-Giant in the Psionics SRD.

Damon_Caskey
2010-02-26, 01:03 PM
This is me asking as an actual studen of Japanese. Transliterated Japanese is meaningless and I mean that in the kindest way possible. Tekken has at least two meanings i can think of because it's an On reading and you can build those in loads of ways.

Please, if you're going to use words that have no meaning out of context, translate them too.


It's just a name., not a descriptor. Yeah, it comes out something roughly like "Steel hands", but ultimately in this context it's not really meant to have a lot of meaning. Kind of like naming your sword "Bloodrinker" or whatever.



On the class itself, Why no armour? I can't see it actually getting in the way and i have seen pictures of similar looking chaps in armour [woodcuts but i forget where from].


It's not the size, its the style. Obviously real life Sumo never learn to use weapons or armor (or a lot of clothes, heh). While nothing stops you from getting that training through feats, I'm taking the artistic license that the mental pride and various Kimarite techniques aren't compatible with that kind of equipment. As justification it's a stretch yeah, but IMO that that big of one.

Without the equipment limitation, every single sumo in play would be armored head to toe while whacking people with his great sword. That strikes me as silliness at best and outright destroys the class flavor. I'm usually all about player freedom, but even I have my limits...imagine Roy Greenhilt the Sumo.



He could do with some non-passive abilities. Abilities that you have to choose to use and preferable think about how you're going to use them are far more interesting than static bonuses. As it is, this is just...mechanically stale. No planning, no variation, just the same basic grapple checks every round [not that Grappling isn't more varied than sword swinging but still].


Addressed above. I'm aware he's pretty boring mechanically, most of that being due to my hate of non scaling abilities and the already complex grappling system not leaving much room to work with. I'm thinking on it...



I'd suggest any or all of the following, to your taste Trample: the ability to knock down and step on a target using an Overrun. Deals unarmed damage

Dungeoncrasher: The sumo slams the target into a wall and crushes him with his body. Target takes 4d6+double strength damage from this.

Improved Dungeoncrasher: as above but 8d6 + double strength.

Choke Hold: Extra Grapple move, causes Suffocation and the target must save of Panic each round.

Oddly, Blood and Fists doesn't list any Trademark Manoeuvres...i'm now out of ideas unfortunately. Anyway, as i said before, Translation, more conscious decisions and maybe more of an area control aspect. Your fluff seems to be leading to that while the core class is a brute hitter [it does it well, but like the Pathfinder Fighter, isn't hugely interesting while it's doing it].

EDIT: Powerful Build is a race quality. Look up Half-Giant in the Psionics SRD.

Some good ideas here, some of them are similar to what I'm milling in my head. I'll check out the SRD for Powerful Build and see if it is a fit.

DC

Mulletmanalive
2010-02-26, 01:42 PM
I pointed the meaninglessness out because its practically impossible to remember terms that have no meaning to you. You can't form associations. Hence, reading later abilities in this class, which reference earlier ones, is more difficult than it needs to be, as you're forced to look back through the thing to find out what an anonymous Japanese word refers to.

Damon_Caskey
2010-02-26, 02:24 PM
I see your point, I'm just not sure there is much I can do about that without switching to entirely anglo terms. Maegashira for instance, is just the name for entry ranking Rikishi; there is no meaningful translation for it.

DC

Damon_Caskey
2010-02-28, 03:24 PM
Alright, here is an update as promised. Most of the scaling stuff is still there. Like I said before, I hate static abilities. But most of it has been given a little something extra to spice things up just a little.


Suri-Ashi dropped.
Endurance replaced with Improved Overrun in requirements.
Chankonabe now worded to use Enlarge Person as reference.
Tachi-ai reworded a bit. Adds "Greater Bull Rush".
Kimarite reworded a bit. Adds "Greater Grapple" (moved from Komusubi) and ability to move at full speed if you win grapple by 5.
Komusubi is now a special full attack boost. This class is meant to be realistic, but I couldn't resist putting just a touch of E. Honda in there.
Sekiwake is now a "leg boost". You act like something with more legs, maxing out at 4 extra legs at level 10 (or more if you go beyond).


DC

Damon_Caskey
2010-08-16, 01:32 PM
Been a while on this. Did some tweaking here and there; nothing outrageous, but enough to make a difference.

It is still an admittedly a bonus laden class for reasons of preference (I like scaling bonuses because they, you know, scale), and the rather pedestrian theme of the class (grapple people). Still, it has a lot more spice then before. I'm curious about the Homebrew crew's thoughts.

Either way, thanks for the read.

DC

imp_fireball
2010-08-16, 02:52 PM
Tetsu Hara (ex)

I struck back hard with my sword, but he turned just so, and my attack rolled right off his skin as if it was plate!

A Rikishi's layers of lipids and musculature provide him excellent protection. Add the Rikishi's Constitution bonus (if any) plus his Rikishi class level as a Natural Armor Bonus. The total bonus may not exceed his Rikishi class level and as normal does not stack with any other natural armor bonuses.


The total bonus may not exceed his Rikishi class level.

This ruins the point of applying Con mod at all. The Rikishi's NA is effectively his class level 90% of the time for anyone who is going to be one. I'd suggest making it 'cannot exceed his ECL' - that way, Con mod could actually apply. Also, it's more powerful.


and as normal does not stack with any other natural armor bonuses.

This doesn't really make any sense regarding verisimilitude. Say the Rikishi had everything at hand that you said he did (lipids, musculature, knowledge of sword swinging physics, etc.), but he also had scales? Or carapace? I think the fact that his skin was naturally harder would add to it. Make the progression one quarter his class level + half Con Mod, with the natural armor bonus being his ECL at maximum.

Also state explicitly that it does in fact stack with other natural armor bonuses, but the maximum natural armor he may have is his ECL. If the player does not wish to use this class feature, they can suppress it (takes 1d20 minutes? It's not a good use of time to do it in the middle of combat anyway) - but then only the natural armor bonus from other sources apply, and not this one.

To take advantage of the class feature once more, the Rikishi must exercise uninterrupted (with only free time for simple meals, etc.) for 1d6 weeks, say.

That way, character optimization can actually burn time in-game and the player must make a bit of decisions.


Feats

Improved Unarmed Strike, Toughness, Improved Overrun, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Bull Rush

That is a heck of a lot of feat prerequisites (you'd have to put six levels into fighter alone to accommodate this if you aren't human - and you'd have no room for anything else!). I think the PrC should really focus on improving all aspects of game play that those feats address, if they are going to require that the player take all six of those feats.


Skills

Acrobatics 4 ranks, Diplomacy 4 ranks

Ah yes... good old path finder. Though maybe intimidate might work better than diplomacy. Or bluff even - the Rikishi tries to make the opponent underestimate him, not just by looking all soft and fat - but perhaps even putting on a child like facade of mock over confidence (like say, smiling more to himself than others, laughing immaturely, never seeming grim, etc.)?

Instead of acrobatics (tumble in 3.5) - how about perform (martial demonstration) or profession (wrestler)? It's all just fluff of course.

As the matter stands, you seem to be practically demanding that the player's character be human since fighters have next to no skill points and with having to put points into those ranks, they literally have no room for other skills.

Getting into this class is pretty linear is what I'm saying.


2 + Int Modifier

When not adventuring, they spend all their time training in one martial art. They have off hours. Barbarians have 4 + Int skill points. I think Rikishi should too. Although Barbarians do typically have to think on their feet in the same way that gang bangers would. Still, Rikishi should have some love in skills - unless of course you are planning on really optimizing the Rikishi in those feats that had to be burned from six levels in fighter.


Add the Rikishi's class level as competence bonus to his unarmed damage. Double this bonus against any opponent the Rikishi is currently grappling.

I wouldn't suggest making this a competence bonus. It doesn't stack (like 95% of bonuses in 3.5e :smallsigh:). Make it a bonus that does stack. It's minor damage at best. Even if you are making 16 unarmed attacks per round against a grappled opponent and you have 10 levels in Rikishi (ECL 16), and all attacks hit, you are going to be doing 320 extra damage. Which may seem like a lot - but granted, that's ten levels in Rikishi (and it's 16 attacks, imagine if you did the same with a manufactured weapon! See what I mean?). 16 unarmed attacks requires optimization and it's a matter of luck that the final handful of those attacks hit, even against an opponent you are grappling (grappling only eliminates their dex bonus which is minor compared to magic items really).

As it stands, this class feature is Above Average. It's not amazing. It's not game breaking. It doesn't suck either.


The Rikishi is now one size category larger. His height and reach do not increase, but he otherwise gains all bonuses and penalties as if his body were affected by an Enlarge Person spell.

Just give him powerful build and say that his weight doubles or triples. Also note an exception in the powerful build entry that the penalties of being a larger size still apply (you can re-flavor the actual part of the class feature 'Chubby Build' or something and then include in an asterix what it does).


Any time the Rikishi charges, performs a successful bull rush or wins a grapple check, he may make an Intimidate check as free action against the opponent. This check is made with a circumstance bonus equal to the Rikishi's class level, but regardless of success or failure, can only be attempted on the same subject once every 24 hours.

How about 'apply the effects of frightful presence against target'. The Rikishi doesn't acquire frightful presence - they merely apply it to one target.

Here's a few ideas:

- Improved Uncanny Dodge?

- DR/- ?

- The ability to fall onto opponents that surprise you (during surprise round) and crush them immediately? As an immediate action (but then you're prone)? This one would be cool. :smallbiggrin:

- What about kip up (stand up from prone as a free action)?

- Combat Sight (basically an improved version of tremor sense combined with dwarven stone cunning (except that it applies to all materials) out to your reach or maybe a little further). With a concentration check, they could gain blind sight too, allowing them to navigate through darkness for 1 round or more.
Fluff: The fact that they can move so efficiently proves that they have a very in depth knowledge of body awareness and physics, such that they are subconsciously aware of everything near them.

- The ability to damage every opponent they are grappling with in one unarmed attack while consuming actions equivalent to one attack?

- At some point you should give them Superior Unarmed Strike, just for the hell of it

Epic Rikishi (ideas)

- Spell Resistance equal to natural armor (or more; say, total AC even)?

- Resistance or even immunity to nonlethal damage.

- Energy Resistance

- Their unarmed strikes can bypass hardness. They can daze or knock people down. They can use ki/chi to increase their weight ten fold against a single opponent.

- They can paralyze an opponent for entire minutes, just by squeezing a muscle (grapple check to hold as free action after one unarmed attack; this doesn't count as an actual grapple though).

- Can hurl creatures into the air above them, freeing up their hands to grapple more creatures. Creatures must make concentration checks in order to take actions while sailing through the air - they take damage but lose no actions if they hit a ceiling, however. Rikishi can juggle entire groups of creatures. :smallbiggrin:

- Can ready an action to cancel a charging opponent and knock them prone. Like cometary collision.

- Can rend with two or more successful unarmed strikes (as two weapon rend). Rending deals slashing damage in addition to regular unarmed damage.

- Unarmed strikes bypass all damage reduction except DR/-

- Con check to not take damage if damage from one attack does not surpass his con score - Ie. >= 18 damage if his Con was 18.


This class is meant to be realistic

Beyond ECL 6, they could never be realistic anymore no matter how many ways you look at it. So go ahead and make him e honda. I wouldn't worry.


Without the equipment limitation, every single sumo in play would be armored head to toe while whacking people with his great sword.

Wrong. You can't use a greatsword against opponents you are grappling. Seeing as this class's damage out put focuses on grappling... see what I'm getting at here?

Damon_Caskey
2010-08-17, 09:46 AM
Quite a bit of material here imp_fireball. Unfortunately I have to disagree with the vast majority of it. Good ideas yes, but after reading, it is clear you and I simply have different philosophies about homebrew design.

Let's see if I can address individually...


This ruins the point of applying Con mod at all. The Rikishi's NA is effectively his class level 90% of the time for anyone who is going to be one. I'd suggest making it 'cannot exceed his ECL' - that way, Con mod could actually apply. Also, it's more powerful.

Giving any ability based bonus not limited by class level has long since been debunked as a severe design flaw. You may disagree, but doing so places you in a firm minority, of which I'm not part of. Moreover, I'm aware most of the time the Con bonus + 1/2 effectively works out to +1lvl = +1AC. I'm perfectly fine with that. The con bonus will come into play at later levels when the AC bonus would start fall behind. Invest in good Con and you keep the bonus coming faster longer.


This doesn't really make any sense regarding verisimilitude. Say the Rikishi had everything at hand that you said he did (lipids, musculature, knowledge of sword swinging physics, etc.), but he also had scales? Or carapace? I think the fact that his skin was naturally harder would add to it. Make the progression one quarter his class level + half Con Mod, with the natural armor bonus being his ECL at maximum.

Also state explicitly that it does in fact stack with other natural armor bonuses, but the maximum natural armor he may have is his ECL. If the player does not wish to use this class feature, they can suppress it (takes 1d20 minutes? It's not a good use of time to do it in the middle of combat anyway) - but then only the natural armor bonus from other sources apply, and not this one.

To take advantage of the class feature once more, the Rikishi must exercise uninterrupted (with only free time for simple meals, etc.) for 1d6 weeks, say.

That way, character optimization can actually burn time in-game and the player must make a bit of decisions.


No offense, but that is making an invasive, convoluted mess out of a simple and entirely passive mechanic. Also, stacking typed bonuses goes directly against one of the most basic mechanics in the d20 system. I partially agree with you that thematically scales + lipids + whatever should = more. But the rules are very clear that they don't, and I see no reason here to rock the boat.


That is a heck of a lot of feat prerequisites (you'd have to put six levels into fighter alone to accommodate this if you aren't human - and you'd have no room for anything else!). I think the PrC should really focus on improving all aspects of game play that those feats address, if they are going to require that the player take all six of those feats.

What do you think the class features are doing? Unarmed Strike gets juiced up with more damage. All but Toughness receive the "greater" version for free and then get built on some more.


Ah yes... good old path finder. Though maybe intimidate might work better than diplomacy. Or bluff even - the Rikishi tries to make the opponent underestimate him, not just by looking all soft and fat - but perhaps even putting on a child like facade of mock over confidence (like say, smiling more to himself than others, laughing immaturely, never seeming grim, etc.)?

Intimidate is something the class is capable of, but has little to do with getting "into the club". This class is based on real life Rikishi so far as practicality allows, and I did my homework. The one thing most clear about a Rikishi's life is they have to kiss butt. A LOT. Half of their training and pretty much all of the careers consist of sucking up to whoever is ahead in line.


Instead of acrobatics (tumble in 3.5) - how about perform (martial demonstration) or profession (wrestler)? It's all just fluff of course.

Because Acrobatics represents pragmatic skill, which real Rikishi must have. Sumo wrestling is essentially Jujutsu with more weight behind it. Falling, rolling, and basic tumbling are the first things taught so as to avoid injury when actual grappling techniques come online.


As the matter stands, you seem to be practically demanding that the player's character be human since fighters have next to no skill points and with having to put points into those ranks, they literally have no room for other skills.

Getting into this class is pretty linear is what I'm saying.

I AM demanding the player be Human, just as a Bladesinger demands Elf/Half-Elf. I'm just making it mechanically difficult instead of slapping some arbitrary "You can't be this unless you are that".

Rather then saying "Sumo wrestlers are Human and nobody else can do it", I prefer to demonstrate through mechanics how difficult the style is for other races, and leave it to the player to get over those hurdles if they want to play Drizzit the Drow Rikishi.


When not adventuring, they spend all their time training in one martial art. They have off hours. Barbarians have 4 + Int skill points. I think Rikishi should too. Although Barbarians do typically have to think on their feet in the same way that gang bangers would. Still, Rikishi should have some love in skills - unless of course you are planning on really optimizing the Rikishi in those feats that had to be burned from six levels in fighter.

Rikishi are very cloistered, and most of their downtime is spent on gaining weight (through sleep). Peripheral skills are not going to be their strong suit. But 4 isn't a lot. I'll think on it a bit.


I wouldn't suggest making this a competence bonus. It doesn't stack (like 95% of bonuses in 3.5e :smallsigh:). Make it a bonus that does stack. It's minor damage at best. Even if you are making 16 unarmed attacks per round against a grappled opponent and you have 10 levels in Rikishi (ECL 16), and all attacks hit, you are going to be doing 320 extra damage. Which may seem like a lot - but granted, that's ten levels in Rikishi (and it's 16 attacks, imagine if you did the same with a manufactured weapon! See what I mean?). 16 unarmed attacks requires optimization and it's a matter of luck that the final handful of those attacks hit, even against an opponent you are grappling (grappling only eliminates their dex bonus which is minor compared to magic items really).

As it stands, this class feature is Above Average. It's not amazing. It's not game breaking. It doesn't suck either.

When you win a grapple, which the Rikishi almost certainly will, grappling damage is automatic at your option, so the total damage is fairly significant. The Rikishi doesn't use "Ki" or any other form of mysticism, he just knows what he's doing. An untyped bonus didn't sit well with me, thus competence. My Engetsu Shinobi (http://www.caskeys.com/arc/fantasy/wiki/index.php?title=Engetsu_Shinobi) uses a similar mechanic.


Just give him powerful build and say that his weight doubles or triples. Also note an exception in the powerful build entry that the penalties of being a larger size still apply (you can re-flavor the actual part of the class feature 'Chubby Build' or something and then include in an asterix what it does).

Gezz, what's everybody's hard-on with Powerful Build? I've already mentioned my classes have to be 100% OGC compatible or they don't see the light of day. I've never found anything on Powerful Build, thus I will never use it as a class feature.

You have probably noticed by now that I prefer to fall back on existing mechanics. This is quite intentional and not for lack of creativity; among other reasons, it maintains maximum compatibility. The only thing available to approximate what I wanted was to outright increase size, which brought out screaming mobs and their pitchforks, or sight Enlarge Person. I choose the later after a lot of consideration.


How about 'apply the effects of frightful presence against target'. The Rikishi doesn't acquire frightful presence - they merely apply it to one target.

I originally did that, but decided to go with Intimidate to allow more varied applications at the player's option. Plus, it again mechanically demonstrates knowing what you are doing over having an ability work just because it does.



Here's a few ideas:

- Improved Uncanny Dodge?


Had it at one time and removed. Makes no sense really. Massive size aside, Rikishi are trained to fight one on one; nothing else. A Rikishi who learns otherwise isn't training as a Rikishi, he's training in some other discipline. In other words, he's multiclassing.



- DR/- ?


The class DOES have DR (it's DR/Class level vs. Bludgeoning and part of Test Hara), but I left it out transferring. Thanks for the catch.


- The ability to fall onto opponents that surprise you (during surprise round) and crush them immediately? As an immediate action (but then you're prone)? This one would be cool. :smallbiggrin:

Interesting... I'll think about it.


- What about kip up (stand up from prone as a free action)? I know what a kip up is, (18 years of Goshin Jutsu and used to teach part time :smallsmile:). This is a good suggestion, except the class already has it as part of Sekiwake (http://www.caskeys.com/arc/fantasy/wiki/index.php?title=Rikishi#Sekiwake_.28ex.29).


- Combat Sight (basically an improved version of tremor sense combined with dwarven stone cunning (except that it applies to all materials) out to your reach or maybe a little further). With a concentration check, they could gain blind sight too, allowing them to navigate through darkness for 1 round or more.
Fluff: The fact that they can move so efficiently proves that they have a very in depth knowledge of body awareness and physics, such that they are subconsciously aware of everything near them.

Also interesting. I might look into it as part of a custom feat set for the class.


- The ability to damage every opponent they are grappling with in one unarmed attack while consuming actions equivalent to one attack?

Reword this please. I'm not quite sure I'm getting the right meaning from it.


- At some point you should give them Superior Unarmed Strike, just for the hell of it

Great idea, but I can't find it in the Pathfinder OGC. If it isn't in there, I have to say no.



Epic Rikishi (ideas)

- Spell Resistance equal to natural armor (or more; say, total AC even)?


Too mystic for my taste. I want this class to stay firmly mundane. However, that doesn't mean I can't look into some alternate ideas based on fortitude and/or physically shrugging off concussive effects.


- Resistance or even immunity to nonlethal damage.

This I like, and it works with the bludgeoning DR he already has.


- Energy Resistance

Again, too mystic. Visualizing a 400lb man taking physical damage and laughing it off is easy. Trying to explain why the same man can't freeze, dissolve, or incinerate? Not so much.


- Their unarmed strikes can bypass hardness. They can daze or knock people down. They can use ki/chi to increase their weight ten fold against a single opponent.

No Ki. No magic. Nothing supernatural. But I DO like the daze and knockdown aspects.


- They can paralyze an opponent for entire minutes, just by squeezing a muscle (grapple check to hold as free action after one unarmed attack; this doesn't count as an actual grapple though).

I like this too, so much in fact I think it would work pre epic.


- Can hurl creatures into the air above them, freeing up their hands to grapple more creatures. Creatures must make concentration checks in order to take actions while sailing through the air - they take damage but lose no actions if they hit a ceiling, however. Rikishi can juggle entire groups of creatures. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, just a bit silly for this class perhaps, but still funny to think about.


- Can ready an action to cancel a charging opponent and knock them prone. Like cometary collision.

Liked and noted. Will probably also look into this as a pre epic ability (probably custom feat).


- Can rend with two or more successful unarmed strikes (as two weapon rend). Rending deals slashing damage in addition to regular unarmed damage.

Slashing I don't like, but auto bludgeoning I can work with. With a little tweaking, this would be a great addition.



- Unarmed strikes bypass all damage reduction except DR/-


Good thinking. Hard too explain without supernatural means, but not impossible.


- Con check to not take damage if damage from one attack does not surpass his con score - Ie. >= 18 damage if his Con was 18.

Could use a little tweaking, but also doable.



Beyond ECL 6, they could never be realistic anymore no matter how many ways you look at it. So go ahead and make him e honda. I wouldn't worry.

That depends on your view of realism. In this case, it is a matter of superhuman vs. supernatural. For this class, the former is OK at high enough level, the latter is not.


Wrong. You can't use a greatsword against opponents you are grappling. Seeing as this class's damage out put focuses on grappling... see what I'm getting at here?

I've seen this kind of phrasing from you in a couple of posts. Just FYI, when trying to convince someone of something, starting the argument with "Wrong." is bound to get a -2 penalty slapped on your Diplomacy check.

Also, it helps to look into the context a bit more. Nobody said anything about grappling with a Greatsword. In fact that's the crux of the issue. A player wouldn't bother grappling. Instead he'd dip the class for its defensive properties, ignore the rest, slap on a bunch of gear, and run around acting like any typical fighter. To quote myself:



That strikes me as silliness at best and outright destroys the class flavor. I'm usually all about player freedom, but even I have my limits...imagine Roy Greenhilt the Sumo.

I appreciate your post, and apologize if it seemed all I was doing was shooting your ideas down. As said before, I believe we simply have differing views on class design, and that's not a bad thing. I prefer to create new things using old material, and make it a point to never set foot outside of OGC for reference. Even so, you have left some good material I can use and will be looking into.

DC

imp_fireball
2010-08-17, 10:17 PM
That depends on your view of realism. In this case, it is a matter of superhuman vs. supernatural. For this class, the former is OK at high enough level, the latter is not.

E Honda's thousand hand slap can easily be marked off as super human. He's got superhuman focus and superhuman thrusting speed.


The one thing most clear about a Rikishi's life is they have to kiss butt. A LOT. Half of their training and pretty much all of the careers consist of sucking up to whoever is ahead in line.

Fair enough, but you should probably only make ranks in one skill a prerequisite.

I still think bluff would be at least a good class skill.


No offense, but that is making an invasive, convoluted mess out of a simple and entirely passive mechanic. Also, stacking typed bonuses goes directly against one of the most basic mechanics in the d20 system. I partially agree with you that thematically scales + lipids + whatever should = more. But the rules are very clear that they don't, and I see no reason here to rock the boat.

Fine - but what about slashing resistance? Slashing resistance means they reduce damage that is slashing but no other kind of damage unless they have <other damage type> resistance.


Giving any ability based bonus not limited by class level has long since been debunked as a severe design flaw. You may disagree, but doing so places you in a firm minority, of which I'm not part of. Moreover, I'm aware most of the time the Con bonus + 1/2 effectively works out to +1lvl = +1AC. I'm perfectly fine with that. The con bonus will come into play at later levels when the AC bonus would start fall behind. Invest in good Con and you keep the bonus coming faster longer.

Well by that logic, having high Con isn't always better... which is fine I guess.


All but Toughness receive the "greater" version for free and then get built on some more.

Then again a warblade or fighter could take the greater versions without having to take levels in this class.

Sometimes mechanics can actually augment the flavor, so giving them the improved versions of every feat isn't always the best design philosophy. Power wise, if you wanted to give them the improved versions of every feat, you could make it happen in a lot less levels - and that's what this PrC would be there to do, just provide a quicker route than even fighter to getting all of those improved versions.

But I don't think that's what you're intending.


When you win a grapple, which the Rikishi almost certainly will, grappling damage is automatic at your option, so the total damage is fairly significant.

So an extra bit of automatic damage in other words - note that grappling damage is equivalent to one attacked unarmed or with a natural weapon (unless I interpreted that wrong). I've got no qualms against this, but it isn't any better than what I already reasoned. I still said it was above average, so it's not like the class feature is poor or anything.


Because Acrobatics represents pragmatic skill, which real Rikishi must have. Sumo wrestling is essentially Jujutsu with more weight behind it. Falling, rolling, and basic tumbling are the first things taught so as to avoid injury when actual grappling techniques come online.

:smallsigh:

I guess that could be reasoned.


I AM demanding the player be Human, just as a Bladesinger demands Elf/Half-Elf. I'm just making it mechanically difficult instead of slapping some arbitrary "You can't be this unless you are that".

Rather then saying "Sumo wrestlers are Human and nobody else can do it", I prefer to demonstrate through mechanics how difficult the style is for other races, and leave it to the player to get over those hurdles if they want to play Drizzit the Drow Rikishi.

Fair enough. I guess I didn't see it that way.


Rikishi are very cloistered, and most of their downtime is spent on gaining weight (through sleep). Peripheral skills are not going to be their strong suit. But 4 isn't a lot. I'll think on it a bit.

In that case, chances are they'd have a lot of hobbies and past times. Hence, their skill points could be higher than a fighter.


The only thing available to approximate what I wanted was to outright increase size, which brought out screaming mobs and their pitchforks, or sight Enlarge Person. I choose the later after a lot of consideration.


The affects are practically identical though except for the lack of reach.

Maybe you should specify something like 'Treat them as being one size larger for the purposes of negatives and penalties, but without an increase in natural reach. The creature's height and weight do not increase to match this increase in size category (unless you're intending either of them or both of them to).'


Had it at one time and removed. Makes no sense really. Massive size aside, Rikishi are trained to fight one on one; nothing else. A Rikishi who learns otherwise isn't training as a Rikishi, he's training in some other discipline. In other words, he's multiclassing.

You shouldn't really actively assume that players will be multi-classing.

That said, the Rikishi you've described is the Rikishi of REAL LIFE. A Rikishi in D&D will no doubt be open minded, ready to adventure and do honest to gods battle under any circumstance. Hence, they may train to prepare themselves for facing more than one opponent.

If you are mimicing the Rikishi of real life you should probably just throw in the clause 'They must spend X days in a dojo in order to level up in Rikishi each time they would normally be permited to level up and choose to take a level in Rikishi.' since they need to brush up on the certified official techniques(TM).

Which'd certainly cause players to cry foul.


The class DOES have DR (it's DR/Class level vs. Bludgeoning and part of Test Hara), but I left it out transferring. Thanks for the catch.

(I haven't actually read it) - but that should be written as Resistance to Bludgeoning not DR/Bludgeoning. Note that DR/Bludgeoning means that it is damage reduction that can only be ignored by bludgeoning damage.


Reword this please. I'm not quite sure I'm getting the right meaning from it.


You can word it however you like, but the affect is - If they damage one opponent with an attack, that attack automatically damages every other opponent you are currently grappling with - that is, the damage you rolled on the attack against the opponent you targeted.


Great idea, but I can't find it in the Pathfinder OGC. If it isn't in there, I have to say no.

Isn't path finder just a take off from 3.5's OGC? Lol. Correct me if I wrong.

Ask some people out there if superior unarmed strike is OGC. As it stands, it just increases the die size of the creature's unarmed strike. Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike.

It's about as buzzkill as weapon focus, so I think it should just fall in with any one of the existing class features like candy.

Alternatively, you could say that if the character has taken levels in monk, then their Rikishi levels stack with the levels in monk for determining the monk's unarmed strike damage. Note that the monk in the 3.5 SRD has an unarmed damage progression table.

That solution would be a bit more tasty than superior unarmed strike I think.


Instead he'd dip the class for its defensive properties, ignore the rest, slap on a bunch of gear, and run around acting like any typical fighter. To quote myself:

As it stands, not to many people would dip this class.


I appreciate your post, and apologize if it seemed all I was doing was shooting your ideas down. As said before, I believe we simply have differing views on class design, and that's not a bad thing. I prefer to create new things using old material, and make it a point to never set foot outside of OGC for reference. Even so, you have left some good material I can use and will be looking into.

Hey, it's never personal with me.

And my ideas get shot down a lot anyway. It could be probability (I've got new crap to write down literally every day), or it could be that I don't think things through - I'm guessing it's both though. :smallwink:

Glad I could help.
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One last idea as a capstone (or feat that requires capstone as prerequisite):

If the Rikishi moves into a space occupied by the opponent, he may automatically roll to grapple that opponent. This costs no action. If more than one opponent occupies the space, the Rikishi may roll to grapple each opponent at their option.

If the Rikishi does the above, he does not provoke an attack of opportunity for moving into the opponent's space that they occupy.