PDA

View Full Version : Epic Leadership (new question, see my latest post)

Drolyt
2010-02-26, 06:50 PM
Okay, I was thinking about the Epic Leadership feat as it applies to a prestige class I'm working on (I'll post it in the homebrew forum within the hour). Now, it says that the highest level follower you can have is 20th level, but I calculate that you would need to have a leadership score of 52,419 to actually accomplish that. My calculations are as follows: With this score you could command 5,238,900 1st level followers (1000 + 100 per point above 40th), 528,900 2nd (1/10 1st level), 261,945 (1/2 2nd level; pattern continues from here), 130,973 3rd, 65,487 4th, 32,744 5th, 16,372 6th, 8186 7th, 4093 8th, 2047 9th, 1024 10th, 512 11th, 256 12th, 128 13th, 64 14th, 32 15th, 16 16th, 8 17th, 4 18th, 2 19th, and 1 20th.

Is there any way to actually attain this score using the SRD? Using WotC material? Using Homebrew or 3rd party material? Has anyone tried to fix this bull? Edit #2: Without munchkin (I mean obviously Pun Pun could just pump his Charisma sufficiently high)?
Edit: I know where my calculation screwed up! You are supposed to round up when caculating, let me fix that real quick :)

Edit #3: How does Legendary Commander work? I'm thinking you calculate how many followers you get and then multiply the final numbers by 10, but if it worked in the following way huge armies might actually be possible: Calculate 1st level followers, multiply by 10, use that number to calculate 2nd level followers, multiply by 10, use that number to calculate 3rd level followers, and so on. If it worked that way it would make much more sense. If you calculate that way you get more 3rd level followers than 2nd. It would actually create a need for the 20th level cap. :)

tyckspoon
2010-02-26, 07:13 PM
You get your Cha mod (or Str with with right race and feat) to your Leadership score. Any means of getting an infinite or abitrarily high stat will get you there; a Cancer Mage can do it pretty trivially, for Strength.

Drolyt
2010-02-26, 07:22 PM
You get your Cha mod (or Str with with right race and feat) to your Leadership score. Any means of getting an infinite or abitrarily high stat will get you there; a Cancer Mage can do it pretty trivially, for Strength.

Good point, I guess I should have asked if there was any way to do it without cheese. The fact that the only person who answered me had to use cheese makes me think no. Thanks for the input.

tyckspoon
2010-02-26, 07:31 PM
Good point, I guess I should have asked if there was any way to do it without cheese. The fact that the only person who answered me had to use cheese makes me think no. Thanks for the input.

Assuming your calculations are correct, this would be right. D&D, as much as it assumes anything about high level play, generally figures your numbers won't get much above 50-ish (say, 30 levels + 15 stat + 5 or so misc reputation modifiers you should pick up along the way to being level 30.) You calculated a number a full 2 orders of magnitude greater, which you simply are not going to get anywhere near without truly smelly cheese.

Drolyt
2010-02-26, 07:35 PM
Assuming your calculations are correct, this would be right. D&D, as much as it assumes anything about high level play, generally figures your numbers won't get much above 50-ish (say, 30 levels + 15 stat + 5 or so misc reputation modifiers you should pick up along the way to being level 30.) You calculated a number a full 2 orders of magnitude greater, which you simply are not going to get anywhere near without truly smelly cheese.

While I thought maybe there was a feat or something that would give you +100,000 leadership score or something. Given my calculations it doesn't seem it would be overpowered.

Drolyt
2010-02-26, 07:43 PM
Okay so has somebody homebrewed a version of leadership/epic leadership that actually works for moderately sized armies? That would be a great help. Seriously, does WotC actually do any testing before publishing, or thinking before writing stuff on paper? They made a prohibition against epic followers when (unless my calculations are horribly wrong) you would need a leadership score of over 100,000 to get them anyways.

OldTrees
2010-02-26, 09:44 PM
then you get a much larger army

I found that a necromancer can get either ~100,000 undead or ~1,000,000 undead at 20th (my computer with the file is down)

With the rules as they are, mediocre armies are possible.

Drolyt
2010-02-26, 09:59 PM
then you get a much larger army

I found that a necromancer can get either ~100,000 undead or ~1,000,000 undead at 20th (my computer with the file is down)

With the rules as they are, mediocre armies are possible.

Pre-epic and without Undead Leadership the best you can possibly do without multiple cohorts is:
20th level, with 18th level cohort that has a 16th level cohort that has a 14th level cohort that has a 12th level cohort that has a 10th level cohort that has an 8th level cohort that has a 6th level cohort.
If all cohorts have 25+ for their leadership score somehow that's 1304 followers. If all the 6th level followers had leadership and 25 leadership scores and assuming they are nixed 6th level followers (to prevent infinite loops) that's another 2,576 for a total of 3,880. I don't see where you are coming from.

PersonMan
2010-02-26, 10:00 PM
Most non-cheesy way I can think of?

Simple. Be level 52,418 with a Charisma of 12.

Without insanely high levels, cheese or the like I'm not sure you can get that high.

Drolyt
2010-02-26, 10:20 PM
Most non-cheesy way I can think of?

Simple. Be level 52,418 with a Charisma of 12.

Without insanely high levels, cheese or the like I'm not sure you can get that high.

I'm sure that by 52,418th level a Dwarf Barbarian would have a Charisma higher than 12. :smallsmile:

Godskook
2010-02-26, 10:27 PM
Pre-epic and without Undead Leadership the best you can possibly do without multiple cohorts is:

Actually, the best you can do is be a 4th level Psion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7959007&postcount=10).

Drolyt
2010-02-26, 10:34 PM
Actually, the best you can do is be a 4th level Psion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7959007&postcount=10).

Why in the name of... dear god I hate WotC.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-26, 10:37 PM
Actually, the best you can do is be a 4th level Psion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7959007&postcount=10).
Actually, you only need to be a 3rd level Psion. Your Psicrystal's cohort is the 4th level Psion. And his Psicrystal's cohort is a fifth level Psion. Etc.

Hell, if you wanted you could have that level 52,418 Psion! Along with 52,418 other Psions of progressively lower levels.

Drolyt
2010-02-26, 10:39 PM
Actually, you only need to be a 3rd level Psion. Your Psicrystal's cohort is the 4th level Psion. And his Psicrystal's cohort is a fifth level Psion. Etc.

Hell, if you wanted you could have that level 52,418 Psion! Along with 52,418 other Psions of progressively lower levels.

That's it, I'm tracking down whoever designed leadership and whoever designed psicrystals and [this scene has been edited for content standards by the time traveling hayes code.]

Godskook
2010-02-26, 10:51 PM
Why in the name of... dear god I hate WotC.

Nice reaction. And they say Psionics are more balanced than Vancian casters.

@DWraith, actually, the build 'accelerates' over time. For instance, a 20th lvl Psion could have a 28th lvl psicrystal-cohort.

Don't kill me! Its called sarcasm!

magic9mushroom
2010-02-26, 11:11 PM
The psicrystal leadership trick can be done at level 1.

1: Psicrystal Affinity.
Flaw: Improved Psicrystal
Flaw: Improved Psicrystal
Taint: Improved Psicrystal
Taint: Improved Psicrystal
Taint: Improved Psicrystal

Drolyt
2010-02-26, 11:22 PM
The psicrystal leadership trick can be done at level 1.

1: Psicrystal Affinity.
Flaw: Improved Psicrystal
Flaw: Improved Psicrystal
Taint: Improved Psicrystal
Taint: Improved Psicrystal
Taint: Improved Psicrystal

I read that as Improved Psicrystal being a flaw. And you know what? It is!

Elana
2010-02-27, 03:47 AM
Okay so has somebody homebrewed a version of leadership/epic leadership that actually works for moderately sized armies? That would be a great help. Seriously, does WotC actually do any testing before publishing, or thinking before writing stuff on paper? They made a prohibition against epic followers when (unless my calculations are horribly wrong) you would need a leadership score of over 100,000 to get them anyways.

Ask and you shall be given.

of course these feats were designed for non epic use.
(I had considered low epic levels, but once you get higher into it this stuff will be as broken as anything WotC made)

Benefit:Your Leadershipscore increases by 5 points. Note that a Leadershipscore over 25 doesn't grant you more followers untill you acquired the epic leadership feat. But this feat can help to overcome modifiers for low charisma or the penalty for cohorts or followers killed.

Special:
This feat can be taken several times.
____
Benefit:You can convince NPC Leaders to join forces with you. (For example to build a warband). To get a Leader to join your team you have to make a Diplomacy check with a DC of 10 plus 10 for every Leader already allied with you.
Each week you have to make a Diplomacy Check of 15 for every Leader allied with you. If you fail that roll by less than 5 points, one of the other leaders will challenge your rule to lead the group.
Depending on the kind of effort this can be a a contest of diplomacy skill to get the majority vote, or a classic duel.
if you fail by more than 5 points the group will disband and you will be left with just your own followers.

___
Benefit:All your followers of 6th level or higher will have the Leadership feat. (Note that you need to have Epic Leadership to have followers of more than 6th level) Any new cohort you acquire will have the Leadership feat, if you currently have a cohort, he will take Leadership as his next feat selection.
____
Benefit:You gain an additional cohort. Each cohort you already have counts as a -2 penalty on your leadership score for acquiring the new cohort.

Normal:You can't have more than one cohort.

Special:
This feat can be taken several times. Each time you get one additional cohort.

Runestar
2010-02-27, 03:53 AM
Nice reaction. And they say Psionics generally are more balanced than Vancian casters.

Fixed.

Generally being the key word here. :smalltongue:

Drolyt
2010-02-27, 11:42 AM
Ask and you shall be given.

of course these feats were designed for non epic use.
(I had considered low epic levels, but once you get higher into it this stuff will be as broken as anything WotC made)

Benefit:Your Leadershipscore increases by 5 points. Note that a Leadershipscore over 25 doesn't grant you more followers untill you acquired the epic leadership feat. But this feat can help to overcome modifiers for low charisma or the penalty for cohorts or followers killed.

Special:
This feat can be taken several times.
____
Benefit:You can convince NPC Leaders to join forces with you. (For example to build a warband). To get a Leader to join your team you have to make a Diplomacy check with a DC of 10 plus 10 for every Leader already allied with you.
Each week you have to make a Diplomacy Check of 15 for every Leader allied with you. If you fail that roll by less than 5 points, one of the other leaders will challenge your rule to lead the group.
Depending on the kind of effort this can be a a contest of diplomacy skill to get the majority vote, or a classic duel.
if you fail by more than 5 points the group will disband and you will be left with just your own followers.

___
Benefit:All your followers of 6th level or higher will have the Leadership feat. (Note that you need to have Epic Leadership to have followers of more than 6th level) Any new cohort you acquire will have the Leadership feat, if you currently have a cohort, he will take Leadership as his next feat selection.
____
Benefit:You gain an additional cohort. Each cohort you already have counts as a -2 penalty on your leadership score for acquiring the new cohort.

Normal:You can't have more than one cohort.

Special:
This feat can be taken several times. Each time you get one additional cohort.

Thanks. That gives me some ideas.

Fixed.

Generally being the key word here.
Yeah, I think Psionics is generally more balanced. It's also easier to use and more newbie friendly. That said, I like the fluff for wizards and sorcerers more and think they are more fun, but they are harder to play right. It's easy to create a completely incompetent wizard and it's equally easy to look up some stupid combos either here or on WotC's optimization boards and ruin everybodies fun. I think the best way to play a wizard, sorcerer, or psion, in spite of what the optimizers will tell you, is blasty with some support. You can do excellent damage without overshining everyone and you can handle the utility quite easily.

absolmorph
2010-02-27, 02:42 PM
Most non-cheesy way I can think of?

Simple. Be level 52,418 with a Charisma of 12.

Without insanely high levels, cheese or the like I'm not sure you can get that high.
You would have 17 thousand epic feats to throw around, along with 52 thousand levels.
Don't tell me that a level 20 follower is the best you can come up with!
This is the only SRD-only way I can think of, though. Just not really an optimal way to do things.
Of course, if you're a really high level cleric, you could make all of the low level ones into wights and use those wights to take over the world...

Unless there's a way to use the Candle of Invocation, of course. But that's just boring.

Drolyt
2010-02-27, 03:02 PM
You would have 17 thousand epic feats to throw around, along with 52 thousand levels.
Don't tell me that a level 20 follower is the best you can come up with!
This is the only SRD-only way I can think of, though. Just not really an optimal way to do things.
Of course, if you're a really high level cleric, you could make all of the low level ones into wights and use those wights to take over the world...

Unless there's a way to use the Candle of Invocation, of course. But that's just boring.

I'm fairly certain that at level 52 thousand you are already god of the multiverse. The gods themselves bow before you, you have turned Asmodeus into that Diablo pet from WoW, and the Lady of Pain is your bitch. You don't really need leadership to rule the world, just tell everyone on the prime that if they don't worship you you'll use your custom epic disintegrate spell with a spellcraft DC in the 100,000 range to blow up the planet.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-27, 08:06 PM
Incidentally, I figured out how to do infinite leadership without taint, though it does require flaws.

Human Erudite sworn to an Elder Evil gets free Improved Psicrystal and 2 bonus feats.

Hooray for Erudites!

absolmorph
2010-02-27, 08:55 PM
I'm fairly certain that at level 52 thousand you are already god of the multiverse. The gods themselves bow before you, you have turned Asmodeus into that Diablo pet from WoW, and the Lady of Pain is your bitch. You don't really need leadership to rule the world, just tell everyone on the prime that if they don't worship you you'll use your custom epic disintegrate spell with a spellcraft DC in the 100,000 range to blow up the planet.
Destroy the Prime Material Plane?
No, no, no!
You don't want to do that, there's probably some stuff you could do there. See, what you do is create your own version of Inevitables that seek out those who defy you. And are more powerful than any Inevitable. Preferably, they're also more powerful than any gods, so they can take down those gods (who should only be minor gods of their portfolios, anyways, making them much less powerful) and then just do whatever you want. Make a new 'verse, create a few planes, whatever.

Drolyt
2010-02-27, 08:59 PM
Destroy the Prime Material Plane?
No, no, no!
You don't want to do that, there's probably some stuff you could do there. See, what you do is create your own version of Inevitables that seek out those who defy you. And are more powerful than any Inevitable. Preferably, they're also more powerful than any gods, so they can take down those gods (who should only be minor gods of their portfolios, anyways, making them much less powerful) and then just do whatever you want. Make a new 'verse, create a few planes, whatever.

Not so keen on the inevitable idea. At that level you should be assumed to be able to create avatars and aspects, and also proxies. Lots of proxies. Maybe a few Epic dragons progressed to 100 CR. That should take care of most deities.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-27, 11:51 PM
Eh, you won't be able to easily deal with deities with Life and Death, they can still kill you.

Drolyt
2010-02-27, 11:59 PM
Eh, you won't be able to easily deal with deities with Life and Death, they can still kill you.

Bull. By level 50,000 I'm sure I got a divine rank somewhere. There are PrCs that grant that kind of stuff you know.

absolmorph
2010-02-28, 12:11 AM
Bull. By level 50,000 I'm sure I got a divine rank somewhere. There are PrCs that grant that kind of stuff you know.
Or just abuse the tricks Pun-Pun uses.
You should be able to legally pull that off easily by that point. Hell, by the time you're level 1000 you should be a booping powerful god. By 50,000 you should have the Far Realms under your thumb.

Drolyt
2010-02-28, 12:13 AM
Or just abuse the tricks Pun-Pun uses.
You should be able to legally pull that off easily by that point. Hell, by the time you're level 1000 you should be a booping powerful god. By 50,000 you should have the Far Realms under your thumb.

It's been a while, how did Pun Pun get divine ranks? I think it had something to do with creating a being that had a divine rank and ordering it to make you it's proxy or something.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-28, 12:57 AM
Bull. By level 50,000 I'm sure I got a divine rank somewhere. There are PrCs that grant that kind of stuff you know.

No there aren't! WTF.

Unless you go down the Cheese Assassin road.

Drolyt
2010-02-28, 01:00 AM
No there aren't! WTF.

Unless you go down the Cheese Assassin road.

I swear there was a PrC that gave you divine ranks... I just can't remember where they are. While, I know for a fact there is a PrC for Dragons that will at least get you divine rank 0 to protect you from that stupid ability. Qualifying for that should be easy by level 50,000, I'm sure there's some neat ways to count as a dragon for purposes of prestige classes. You wouldn't even need any cheese.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-28, 03:02 AM
I swear there was a PrC that gave you divine ranks... I just can't remember where they are. While, I know for a fact there is a PrC for Dragons that will at least get you divine rank 0 to protect you from that stupid ability. Qualifying for that should be easy by level 50,000, I'm sure there's some neat ways to count as a dragon for purposes of prestige classes. You wouldn't even need any cheese.

Really? Where?

Khabuem
2010-02-28, 03:36 AM
Really? Where?

Dragon Ascendant from Draconomicon. Its 10th-level ability Immortality makes you a quasi-deity (although it doesn't explicitly say divine rank 0, in fairness.)

magic9mushroom
2010-02-28, 03:54 AM
Dragon Ascendant from Draconomicon. Its 10th-level ability Immortality makes you a quasi-deity (although it doesn't explicitly say divine rank 0, in fairness.)

Found it. It takes 12 levels, and you need a BAB of +30 to enter, presumably from 30 dragon hit dice.

But yeah, since you have to be a "mortal" to be subject to Life and Death, and they're explicitly Immortal, they don't need a divine rank to dodge it.