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AgentPaper
2010-02-27, 01:50 AM
So, after doing some thinking about races in my campaign, I've decided that, while I like how 4E handles races better than, say, 3.5, I still don't like how they're handled.

The biggest and easiest change I plan to make is to remove all of the +2 bonuses to various stats. They're just completely gone.

Second, I want to make the rest of the stuff the races get more important, and especially I want them to scale with level better. For example, at 11th level the eladrin can use his Fey Step power at-will instead of once per encounter, and at 21st level, he can do so as a minor action, instead of a move action.

Some more examples:

Human: At 11th level, you can have 4 encounter powers instead of 3. At 21st level, you can have 4 daily powers instead of 3. You can still only have 1 power of each level.

Dragonborn: At 11th level, you can use your dragon breath power at-will. At 21st level, you gain wings and a fly (hover) speed equal to your movement speed.

Dwarves: At 11th level, you gain damage reduction equal to 1/2 your healing surge value until the end of your next turn after using second wind. At 21st level, (need idea).

Halflings: At 11th level, you gain combat advantage against the target of your second chance power if it turns a hit into a miss. At 21st level, you can use your second chance power at-will.

Elves: At 11th level, you gain combat advantage on your Elven Accuracy re-roll. At 21st level, you can use your elven accuracy power as an at-will power. Elven Accuracy is an immediate interrupt instead of a free action.

Half-Elf: At 11th level, you can use your dilettante power as an at-will. At 21st level, (need idea).

Tieflings: At 11th level, you also gain combat advantage against the target of your Infernal Wrath. At 21st level, you can use Infernal Wrath at-will. Infernal Wrath damage also uses cha/int/wis, your choice, instead of just charisma.

And a few races unique to my campaign:

Aasimar: Divine Wrath, 1/encounter, minor action, gain +1 power bonus to attack and +(cha/int/wis) radiant damage against a target that has hit one of your allies since the end of your last turn. At 11th level, you gain combat advantage against the target of your Divine Wrath. At 21st level, you can use Divine Wrath as an at-will power.

Minotaur: Large size and can use large weapons. If a power doesn't deal [W] damage, instead all of it's dice increase by one size. At 11th level, all of your attacks that hit push the target 1 square. At 21st level, you gain reach.

Geist: Can create a cloud of mist (like drow's cloud of darkness) 1/encounter. At 11th level, can sustain the mist as a minor action, and move it 6 squares. At 21st level, the mist is created as a free action at-will, and follows the Geist around. (can be moved away as a minor action, 6 squares per action, and re-called as a free)



So, what do you guys think? It definitely needs a lot of work, since a lot of the scaling of the abilities is kinda boring right now, or not even present, and balance is likely all over the place, but hopefully this gets the basic idea across. What I'm hoping to achieve here is to have every race have it's own unique traits that it brings to the table, which should be useful for any class or role. A dwarf, halfling, and geist rogue, for example, should all work slightly differently, but should all be equally as effective in the end.

Gralamin
2010-02-27, 02:20 AM
First thing I notice is that you are going to have to completely rewrite the racial feats, to account for some of these changes. I think I get your point, but would like to see a proper writeup of one race, as an example. How strong this is really depends on exact implementation.

Also, are you sure you want to remove the +2 bonuses to stats completely? Perhaps have it as choose two stats to get +2 to as a character bonus instead of a racial bonus.

Also, do the skill bonuses ever improve (or you get more)? Do you develop new sentences? Does the Deva automatically learn Supernal at some point?

Mando Knight
2010-02-27, 02:33 AM
Elven Accuracy as an Immediate Interrupt is useless... it'll only be worth anything on OAs and Free-Action not-your-turn attacks, since Immediates can't be spent on your own turn.

Edge of Dreams
2010-02-27, 03:18 AM
Very interesting idea, but what you've got so far need serious work in the balance department.



at 11th level the eladrin can use his Fey Step power at-will instead of once per encounter, and at 21st level, he can do so as a minor action, instead of a move action.


You do realize fey step at-will means no more opportunity attacks against eladrin, EVER, after 11, right? And making it minor action gives them move speed 10 if they want it. Combine with the feat that lets you take a free basic attack after every teleport, and this is beyond OP.



Human: At 11th level, you can have 4 encounter powers instead of 3. At 21st level, you can have 4 daily powers instead of 3. You can still only have 1 power of each level.


Moderately powerful, fun.



Dragonborn: At 11th level, you can use your dragon breath power at-will. At 21st level, you gain wings and a fly (hover) speed equal to your movement speed.


Fly is suitable. Dragon Breath at will is awesome, especially as a class with few minor action powers. The recent Dragonborn race book adds lots of feats to add damage and status effects to dragonbreath, so as at-will it has the potential be way OP.



Dwarves: At 11th level, you gain damage reduction equal to 1/2 your healing surge value until the end of your next turn after using second wind. At 21st level, (need idea).


Seems weak to give them a 1/encounter defensive boost in comparison to some of the others you've got here.



Halflings: At 11th level, you gain combat advantage against the target of your second chance power if it turns a hit into a miss. At 21st level, you can use your second chance power at-will.


Similar to dwarves, the 11th level thing seems week. 21st level, forcing a reroll on 1 attack/round is pretty amazing defense, though.



Elves: At 11th level, you gain combat advantage on your Elven Accuracy re-roll. At 21st level, you can use your elven accuracy power as an at-will power. Elven Accuracy is an immediate interrupt instead of a free action.


Again, level 11 is weak, and already sort-of exists as a feat anyway (do you mean for them to stack?), level 21 is OP.



Half-Elf: At 11th level, you can use your dilettante power as an at-will. At 21st level, (need idea).


Actually seems about right, given there's already a paragon path that does this.



Tieflings: At 11th level, you also gain combat advantage against the target of your Infernal Wrath. At 21st level, you can use Infernal Wrath at-will. Infernal Wrath damage also uses cha/int/wis, your choice, instead of just charisma.


I don't remember infernal wrath specifically right now, but the 11 thing seems weak, again, while the 21 is hard for me to judge.

Looking at everything you've got here, I think that if you want level 21 and above to feel truly EPIC, you're on the right track for most of these, but the paragon ones seem to vary wildly in power level. That, and the interactions with other powers and feats needs to be checked carefully unless you're okay with opening up potential abuses and nerfing them later. Finally, remember that the game is not balanced around this kind of power level, so changes like this will affect your encounter building as well.

Yakk
2010-02-27, 12:46 PM
Might I suggest a slightly different path?

Create Racial powers. Give them out a level 1, 4, and 8. At level 14, 18, 24, 28 you get to upgrade your racial powers to a new level.

This fills in a current 'hole' in the power progression of players.

This also generates natural chains, levels at which you'd be expected to replace powers:
1->14->28
4->18
8->24
which is the natural level to replace a power.

As an example, Eladrin might have this 'chain' of fey step powers:

1: Fey step move action 5 square teleport encounter
14: Fey step minor action 6 square teleport, can expend it as an immediate reaction to being missed.
28: Fey step at-will 6 square teleport minor action (1/round). 1/encounter can expend it as an immediate interrupt to being hit or missed.

The level 28 one is the seriously overpowered one. Because at level 28, you are allowed to break the game. :)

Now, you just need to think up about 6 'base' powers per race, and 1-2 upgrades for each.

This fits the standard 4e progression model, doesn't shove yet more power into "I hit level 11", and fills in the "dead" levels of 4s and 8s nicely.

AgentPaper
2010-02-27, 04:06 PM
I love all of those ideas, especially yours, Yakk. It also allows easily for people to think up new powers that a race might get and add them in. So if someone wanted to be a dragonborn, but didn't like the whole breathing fire schtick, they could homebrew up a new racial power for level 1/14/28, like a tail slap or something.

And yes, I'm completely getting rid of the +2 bonuses. The compensate, the point buy is increased to 32, which is about the same, except that you can't get to 20 in a stat at 1st level, and if you try to boost more stats, you'll end up better off overall, compared to before.

The only problem now is that my creativity is completely sapped, and I can't think of anything at all. So please! Share your ideas! :smallbiggrin:

Gralamin
2010-02-27, 05:13 PM
Assuming you go with Yakk's Path, how about something like this?

Dwarfs are supposed to be good defenders, and good with divine classes.

(Note, some things will have to be rebalanced, I'm just giving out ideas at this point. A lot of the powers are very similar, but I'm working with a race that has little to go off of.)
Dwarf
Size Medium
Speed 5
Vision Low-Light

Languages Common, Dwarven
Skill Bonuses +5 Racial bonus to Saving throws against poison
Dwarven Resilience You gain the Dwarven Resilience power.
Dwarven Weapon Proficinecy As Dwarf
Encumbered Speed As Dwarf
Stand your Ground As Dwarf

Power Progression At level 4, you may take one of Ancestral Toughness or Devoted Faith.
At level 8, you may take one of Ancestral Techniques or Tough as Nails.
At level 14, you may replace Dwarven Resilience with one of Pious Resilience or Stubborn Resilience.
At level 18, you may replace The level 4 power you took with one of Ancestral Faith or Devoted Toughness
At level 24, you may replace The level 8 power you took with one of Ancestral Power or Tougher than Bolts
At level 28, you may replace Dwarven Resilience (if you still have it) or the level 14 power you took with one of Relentless Resilience or Unheard-of Resilience

Dwarf Powers
Dwarven Resilience Dwarf Racial Power 1
Encounter - Healing
Minor Action; Personal
Effect You spend your second Wind, gaining all the usual benefits. You may still not spend your second wind twice in an encounter.

Ancestral Toughness Dwarf Racial Power 4
Encounter
Minor Action; Personal
Effect Until the end of your next turn, you gain Resist 5 all.

Devoted Faith Dwarf Racial Power 4
Encounter
Requirement You have at least one channel divinity power, and have used your use of channel divinity in the encounter.
Minor Action; Personal
Effect You regain the use of one channel divinity power, as well as a use of channel divinity for the encounter.

Ancestral Techniques Dwarf Racial Power 8
Encounter
Minor Action; Close burst 5
Target One creature in burst.
Effect Until the end of the encounter, you gain a +2 to hit and a +2 to AC against the chosen target.

Tough as Nails Dwarf Racial Power 8
At-will - Healing
Free Action; Personal
Trigger When you are the target of a healing power that is not Tough as Nails
Effect You regain additional hit points equal to half your constitution modifier.

Pious Resilience Dwarf Racial Power 14
Encounter - Healing
Minor Action; Personal
Effect You spend your second Wind, gaining all the usual benefits and an ally within five squares may also spend their second Wind. You may still not spend your second wind twice in an encounter, and neither may your ally.
Special: For the purposes of feats, powers, class features, paragon path features, and epic destiny features, this counts as the Dwarven Resilience ability.

Stubborn Resilience Dwarf Racial Power 14
Encounter - Healing
Minor Action; Personal
Effect You spend your second Wind, gaining all the usual benefits and may make a saving throw against any effect a save can end. You may still not spend your second wind twice in an encounter.
Special: For the purposes of feats, powers, class features, paragon path features, and epic destiny features, this counts as the Dwarven Resilience ability.

Ancestral Faith Dwarf Racial Power 18
Encounter
Requirement You have at least one channel divinity power, and have used your use of channel divinity in the encounter.
Minor Action; Personal
Effect You regain the use of one channel divinity power, as well as a use of channel divinity for the encounter. In addition, you regain a healing surge.

Devoted Toughness Dwarf Racial Power 18
Encounter
Free Action; Personal
Trigger You spend your second wind
Effect You gain Resistance to All damage equal to 1/2 your healing surge value until the end of your next turn.

Ancestral Power Dwarf Racial Power 24
Encounter
Minor Action; Close burst 5
Target One creature in burst.
Effect Until the end of the encounter, you gain a +2 to hit and a +2 to defenses against the chosen target. If you land the killing blow on the target, you may spend a healing surge.

Tougher than Bolts Dwarf Racial Power 24
At-will - Healing
Free Action; Personal
Trigger When you are the target of a healing power that is not Tough as Bolts
Effect You regain additional hit points equal to your constitution modifier.

Relentless Resilience Dwarf Racial Power 28
Encounter - Healing
Minor Action; Personal
Effect You spend your second Wind, gaining all the usual benefits and an ally within five squares may also spend their second Wind. In addition, while your second wind is spent, you may act normally when your hit points are below zero, though you must still make Death saving throws as normal.
Special: For the purposes of feats, powers, class features, paragon path features, and epic destiny features, this counts as the Dwarven Resilience ability.

Unheard-Of Resilience Dwarf Racial Power 28
Encounter (Special) - Healing
Minor Action; Personal
Effect You spend your second Wind, gaining all the usual benefits and may make a saving throw against any effect a save can end.
Special You may use this ability twice per encounter, but only once per turn. This allows you to spend your second wind twice in an encounter.
Special: For the purposes of feats, powers, class features, paragon path features, and epic destiny features, this counts as the Dwarven Resilience ability.

AgentPaper
2010-02-27, 10:02 PM
Right, let's see if I can take a crack at it.


Eladrin

Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low-light

Languages: Common, Elven
Skill Bonuses: Same as normal
Eladring Education: Same as normal
Eladrin Weapon Proficiency: Same as normal
Eladrin Will: Same as normal
Fey Origin: Same as normal
Trance: Same as normal

Powers:

Fey Step - - - - - Eladrin Racial 1
Encounter * Teleportation
Move Action - - Personal
Effect: Teleport up to 5 squares.

Fey Eloquence - - - - - Eladrin Racial 4
Encounter
Immediate Reaction - - Ranged 5
Trigger: You or an ally in range makes a diplomacy, intimidate or bluff check and you dislike the result.
Effect: Make a diplomacy check and use it in place of the triggering roll.

Focused Expertise - - - - - Eladrin Racial 4
Encounter
Minor Action - - Personal
Effect: Choose a skill you are trained in. Until the end of the encounter, you gain a +2 bonus to skill checks with that skill, and a -2 penalty to all other skill checks.

Fey Grace - - - - - Eladrin Racial 8
Daily
Minor Action - - Personal
Effect: Until the end of the encounter, you do not provoke opportunity attacks from movement.

Long Lived - - - - - Eladrin Racial 8
Daily
Immediate Reaction - - Personal
Trigger: You are attacked.
Effect: You gain a +4 bonus to all defenses against the triggering attack. If it misses, you can teleport 1 square as a free action.

Fey Stride - - - - - Eladrin Racial 14
At-Will * Teleportation
Move Action - - Personal
Effect: Teleport up to 5 squares.

Fey Beauty - - - - - Eladrin Racial 18
Encounter * Charm
Free Action - - Personal
Trigger: You would make a Diplomacy, Intimidate, or Bluff skill check.
Effect: Do not roll, you succeed on the check.

Focused Excellence - - - - - Eladrin Racial 18
Encounter
Minor Action - - Personal
Effect: Choose a skill you are trained in. Until the end of the encounter, you gain a +4 bonus to skill checks with that skill, and a -2 penalty to all other skill checks.

Fey Spirit - - - - - Eladrin Racial 24
Daily
Immediate Reaction - - Personal
Trigger: You fail your third death saving throw.
Effect: Instead of dying, you disappear and re-appear in a random location in the Feywild.

Fey Shift - - - - - Eladrin Racial 28
At-Will * Teleportation
Minor Action
Effect: Teleport up to 5 squares.
Special: This power can only be used once each round.

AgentPaper
2010-03-01, 10:22 PM
Bump. Anyone else want to take a try? Anyone interested in seeing a specific race with this?

Vadin
2010-03-01, 10:52 PM
Slightly related, at least to Large races- instead of letting Large races use weapons that increase the damage die by one size (from d6 to d8, d10 to d12), would it be balanced to give them +1 damage per die of weapon damage?

AgentPaper
2010-03-02, 03:44 AM
Slightly related, at least to Large races- instead of letting Large races use weapons that increase the damage die by one size (from d6 to d8, d10 to d12), would it be balanced to give them +1 damage per die of weapon damage?

No, that does about the same thing. Really, I don't think large weapons are too much of an issue. It's a nice damage boost that scales well with level. The only problem is that is scales too well with rangers, since they have so much [W] damage going around. It might be a good ruling to say that you can only use an oversized weapon in your main hand, which solves that problem neatly.

I think the reason that they removed it, though, is not because it's just too powerful for a race to have, but because it's power demands that it be a major racial feature, like the dragonborn's breath or the eladrin's teleport, and they didn't want a race's major trait to be something as boring as "+1 damage per [W]".

deathpigeon
2010-03-03, 10:16 AM
Half-Elf
Average Height: 5 5˝6 2˝
Average Weight: 130190 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Constitution, +2 Charisma
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low-light

Languages: Common, Elven, choice of one other

Skill Bonuses: +2 Diplomacy, +2 Insight

1- Dilettante: As normal 14- Master Dilettante- You can use your Dilettante power At-will. 14- Double Dilettante- You can chose another At-will power to gain as an encounter power. 28- Total Dilettante- You can use your Dilettante as an At-will, and you can replace the ability score it uses with any other ability score. 28- Triple Dilettante- You can chose another At-will power to gain as an encounter power.

4- Shared Speech 4- Beguiling Speech 18- Total Concordance 18- Beguiling Oration

8- Silver Tongue 8- Greater Con 24- Gold Tongue 24- Perfect Con

Dual Heritage: As normal

Group Diplomacy: As normal

Half-Elf Racial Powers
Shared Speech Half-Elf Racial Power 4
Encounter
Immediate Reaction; Ranged 10
Trigger: An ally uses a Charisma based skill and you don't like the results
Effect: The triggering ally can re-roll the triggering skill with a +2 bonus to it.

Silver Tongue Half-Elf Racial Power 4
Encounter
Immediate Reaction; Personal
Trigger: You dislike the result of a charisma based skill.
Effect: You can re-roll and use better of the two results. Until the end of the encounter, you gain a +2 bonus to a Charisma based skill including the re-roll.

Beguiling Speech Half-Elf Racial Power 8
Daily * Charm
Standard Action; Ranged 10
Target: One enemy in Range
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: The target is dazed until the end of you next turn.
Sustain Standard: Repeat this attack. You can sustain until you miss.

Greater Con Half-Elf Racial Power 8
Daily * Charm
Standard Action; Ranged 10
Target: One creature in range
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: The target believes you mean them no harm, and will not attack you.

Total Concordance Half-Elf Racial Power 18
Encounter
Immediate Reaction; Ranged 20
Trigger: An ally uses a Charisma based skill and you don't like the results
Effect: The triggering ally can re-roll the triggering skill with a bonus to it equal to the bonus you would get in addition to their normal bonus.

Golden Tongue Half-Elf Racial Power 18
Encounter
Immediate Reaction; Personal
Trigger: You dislike the result of a charisma based skill.
Effect: You can re-roll and use better of the two results. Until the end of the encounter, you gain a +5 bonus to a Charisma based skill including the re-roll.

Beguiling Oration Half-Elf Racial Power 24
Daily
Standard Action; Ranged 20
Target: One enemy in Range
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: The target is dominated until the end of you next turn.
Sustain Standard: Repeat this attack. You can sustain until you miss.

Perfect Con Half-Elf Racial Power 24
Daily * Charm
Standard Action; Ranged 20
Target: One creature in range
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: The target becomes your willing ally.