True Necromancer Redux (PEACH)

[Drolyt]

This version has been abandoned. I'm not giving up on the True Necromancer, the new version will be posted, hm..., eventually. This version is bad and should not be used. Thank you.
True Necromancer
Hit Die
d6.
Requirements
To qualify to become a true necromancer, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Alignment
Any Evil.
Skills
Knowledge (arcana) 7 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 7 ranks.
Feats
Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy), Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (Necromancy)
Spells
Arcane Caster Level 2nd and Divine Caster Level 2nd
Special
Ability to Rebuke Undead, ability to Summon a Familiar.
Class Skills
The true necromancer's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Points at Each Level
4 + Int Modifier.
True Necromancer
{table]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Animate Dead, Necromantic Power, Rebuke Undead, Stitched Flesh Familiar|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class, +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Ray of Fatigue, Undead Leadership|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class, +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Corpsecrafter, Enervation|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class, +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Bolster Resistance, Fear|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class, +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Deadly Chill, Slay Living|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class, +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Destruction Retribution, Waves of Fatigue|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class, +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Create Undead, Hardened Flesh|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class, +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|Circle of Death, Nimble Bones|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class, +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Finger of Death, Necromantic Presence|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class, +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Control Undead, Necromantic Might|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class, +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Create Greater Undead, Tomb-Tainted Soul|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class, +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

12th|
+6|
+4|
+4|
+8|Horrid Wilting, Tomb Born Fortitude|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class, +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

13th|
+6|
+4|
+4|
+8|Energy Drain, Tomb Born Resilience|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class, +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

14th|
+7|
+4|
+4|
+9|Tomb Born Vitality, Wail of the Banshee|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class, +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

15th|
+7|
+5|
+5|
+9|Improved Toughness, Soul Bind|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class, +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

16th|
+8|
+5|
+5|
+10|Lichdom|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class, +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class[/table]
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the true necromancer class. Note: Feats not found in the Player's Handbook are from Libris Mortis.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A true necromancer gains no proficiency in any weapon or armor.
Spells
When a new true necromancer level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in 1 arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and 1 divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class.
Animate Dead (Sp)
A true necromancer may cast Animate Dead as a spell-like ability 1/day. Her caster level for this ability is her character level, but her caster level is treated as her character level + her true necromancer level for purposes of calculating how many hit dice of undead she can control. She need not provide a material component when using this ability.
Necromantic Power
A true necromancer casts Necromancy spells at +2 caster level.
Rebuke Undead (Su)
A true necromancer's effective cleric level for rebuking undead is equal to her cleric level + her wizard level + her true necromancer level.
Stitched Flesh Familiar
A true necromancer gains this feat as a bonus feat. A true necromancer adds her cleric level + her true necromancer level to her wizard or sorcerer level for purposes of determining her familiar's abilities.
Ray of Exhaustion (Sp)
Starting at 2nd level a true necromancer can cast Ray of Exhaustion as a spell like ability 1/day. Her caster level is equal to her character level and the save DC is 13 + Int Modifier + Wis Modifier.
Undead Leadership
A true necromancer gains this feat as a bonus feat at 2nd level.
Corpsecrafter
A true necromancer gains this feat as a bonus feat at 3rd level.
Enervation (Sp)
Starting at 3rd level a true necromancer can cast Enervation as a spell-like ability 1/day. Her caster level is equal to her character level.
Bolster Resistance
A true necromancer gains this feat as a bonus feat at 4th level.
Fear (Sp)
Starting at 4th level a true necromancer can cast Fear as a spell-like ability 1/day. Her caster level is equal to her character level and the save DC is equal to 14 + Int Modifier + Wis Modifier.
Deadly Chill
A true necromancer gains this feat as a bonus feat at 5th level.
Slay Living (Sp)
Starting at 5th level a true necromancer can cast Slay Living as a spell-like ability 1/day. Her caster level is equal to her character level and the save DC is equal to 15 + Int Modifier + Wis Modifier.
Destruction Retribution
A true necromancer gains this feat as a bonus feat at 6th level.
Waves of fatigue (Sp)
Starting at 6th level a true necromancer can cast Waves of Fatigue as a spell-like ability 1/day. Her caster level is equal to her character level.
Create Undead (Sp)
Starting at 7th level a true necromancer can cast Create Undead as a spell-like ability 1/day. Her caster level is equal to her character level. She need not provide a material component when using this ability. Immediately after using this ability, as a free action, the true necromancer may attempt to command the undead as the spell Command Undead, save DC 12 + Int Modifier + Wis Modifier. If this fails she may immediately attempt to rebuke the undead as a swift action.
Hardened Flesh
A true necromancer gains this feat as a bonus feat at 7th level.
Circle of Death (Sp)
Starting at 8th level a true necromancer can cast Circle of Death as a spell-like ability 1/day. Her caster level is equal to her character level and the save DC is equal to 16 + Int Modifier + Wis Modifier. She need not provide a material component when using this ability.
Nimble Bones
A true necromancer gains this feat as a bonus feat at 8th level.
Finger of Death (Sp)
Starting at 9th level a true necromancer can cast Finger of Death as a spell-like ability 1/day. Her caster level is equal to her character level and the save DC is equal to 17 + Int Modifier + Wis Modifier.
Necromantic Presence
A true necromancer gains this feat as a bonus feat at 9th level.
Control Undead (Sp)
Starting at 10th level a true necromancer can cast Control Undead as a spell-like ability 1/day. Her caster level is equal to her character level and the save DC is equal to 17 + Int Modifier + Wis Modifier.
Necromantic Might
A true necromancer gains this feat as a bonus feat at 10th level.
Create Greater Undead (Sp)
Starting at 11th level a true necromancer can cast Create Greater Undead as a spell-like ability 1/day. Her caster level is equal to her character level. She need not provide a material component when using this ability. Immediately after using this ability, as a free action, the true necromancer may attempt to command the undead as the spell Command Undead, save DC 12 + Int Modifier + Wis Modifier. If this fails she may immediately attempt to rebuke the undead as a swift action.
Tomb-Tainted Soul
A true necromancer gains this feat as a bonus feat at 11th level.
Horrid Wilting (Sp)
Starting at 12th level a true necromancer can cast Horrid Wilting as a spell-like ability 1/day. Her caster level is equal to her character level and the save DC is 18 + Int Modifier + Wis Modifier.
Tomb Born Fortitude
A true necromancer gains this feat as a bonus feat at 12th level.
Energy Drain (Sp)
Starting at 13th level a true necromancer can cast Energy Drain as a spell-like ability 1/day. Her caster level is equal to her character level.
Tomb Born Resilience
A true necromancer gains this feat as a bonus feat at 13th level.
Tomb Born Vitality
A true necromancer gains this feat as a bonus feat at 14th level.
Wail of the Banshee (Sp)
Starting at 14th level a true necromancer can cast Wail of the Banshee as a spell-like ability 1/day. Her caster level is equal to her character level and the save DC is 19 + Int Modifier + Wis Modifier.
Improved Toughness
A true necromancer gains this feat as a bonus feat at 15th level.
Soul Bind
Starting at 15th level a true necromancer can cast Soul Bind as a spell-like ability 1/day. Her caster level is equal to her character level and the save DC is 19 + Int Modifier + Wis Modifier. The black sapphire used as a focus may be of any value and will not break.
Lichdom
A 16th level true necromancer may craft a phylactery and become a Lich. She need not possess the Wondrous Item Creation feat but she must expend time, gold (120,000 GP) and experience (4,800 XP) normally. She does not gain a level adjustment.

[Latronis]

how do you get 3rd level spells in 2 classes and still fit in 16 prc levels?

EDIT: whoops misread that. Still 3wiz\3clr\16TN still doesn't fit

[Innis Cabal]

Why not just...make it a base class? Oh wait...there -is- one like that. Its called the Dread Necromancer. Problem solved.

[Kuma Kode]

A bunch of free feats, free spell-like abilities of spells that don't suck, and 1-for-1 casting progression? Considering the Mystic Theurge is devoid of class abilities and serves a similar multiclass role, I'm going to say this is probably overpowered. There was a reason the original True Necromancer class had a staggered 2/3 casting progression.

EDIT: Though I do agree with the poster above. If you're going to make 16 levels, might as well do the extra 4 and make a base class.

Also, DCs for spell-like abilities are almost always determined by Charisma, as it's the standard for innate casting, which spell-like abilities are. Stacking both of the caster's (presumably best) abilities is probably a bad idea as it creates spells with very high DCs.

[Innis Cabal]

A bunch of free feats, free spell-like abilities of spells that don't suck, and 1-for-1 casting progression? Considering the Mystic Theurge is devoid of class abilities and serves a similar multiclass role, I'm going to say this is probably overpowered. There was a reason the original True Necromancer class had a staggered 2/3 casting progression.

Then again, when you look at the -other- dual progression classes like Arcane Herio and Noctumancer, they get abilities. Mystic Theurge is widely considered way under powered. And for good reason.

[Kuma Kode]

Then again, when you look at the -other- dual progression classes like Arcane Herio and Noctumancer, they get abilities. Mystic Theurge is widely considered way under powered. And for good reason.

I've never actually heard of those, but yeah, I've seen things like the Eldritch Theurge which get abilities, but usually with full dual-caster progression in mind.

Still, one must be careful with handing out class features to such classes, as it's already a pretty nice treat, especially if the base classes lacked class features.

[Innis Cabal]

Mathmatically speaking, dual progression classes lose out. Espcially the Mystic Theurge who, without cheese, will never see level 9 spells. The least it can get is some abilities to make up for this. You can only cast one spell a road, two if your really going to stretch yourself and even then, they won't ever be your most powerful spells. This PrC isn't so much over powered, as missing the mark. There is a full base class that does exactly what this intends, and does it way better.

Look at the Pathfinder Version. Thats how it should be done.

[ZeroNumerous]

EDIT: whoops misread that. Still 3wiz\3clr\16TN still doesn't fit

Wizard 1/Cleric 3 with Practiced Spellcaster(Wizard) qualifies. Cleric 1/Wizard 3 with Practiced Spellcaster(Cleric) qualifies as well. Technically Bard 7/Cleric 1 with the Summon Familiar feat and Practiced Spellcaster(Cleric) also qualfiies.

[Latronis]

Wizard 1/Cleric 3 with Practiced Spellcaster(Wizard) qualifies. Cleric 1/Wizard 3 with Practiced Spellcaster(Cleric) qualifies as well.

If you are a human (need 4 feats, assuming scribe scrolls is free)

[Realms of Chaos]

Why does everyone keep saying that a normal mystic theurge doesn't get 9th level spells. Wizard 7/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10. You end up casting spells as a Wizard 17 (9th level spells)/Cleric 13 (7th level spells) without any degree of cheese. Your access is a bit delayed but the fact remains that you do get those spells.

As for this PrC, seems a bit bland to me but that might be what the doctor ordered in this situation. I've always felt that the SLAs were the weakest part of the original class, though.

[Drolyt]

First off, thank you everyone who posted, and two general points to answer some of the above:
1. I screwed up the entry requirements. I mean CL 2 in each so you take this class at 5th level. I was tired when I did this.
2. I wanted this class to be attractive, in fact quite powerful, without being too strong. Note that to enter this class you fall perpetually behind single class wizard or cleric by 2 levels. You also give up any chance you ever had of getting a real prestige class. Yes you eventually get access to 9th level spells in both classes, but on it's own that's a raw deal. Half of the Cleric's spell list was already on the Wizard's list anyways. What do you really gain, some healing magic and resurrection magic? You also end up with a lot lower hit points, saves, and BAB compared to straight cleric (though slightly better compared to straight wizard). To make it worth it I made sure it advanced Rebuke Undead and that it gave those SLAs every level. Basically it ensures that you will always have access to one or two spells per day of the level you would have had if you didn't multiclass. The feats are all thematic for a caster that likes to control undead and I used feats instead of defining actual special abilities because I'm lazy.

how do you get 3rd level spells in 2 classes and still fit in 16 prc levels?
EDIT: whoops misread that. Still 3wiz\3clr\16TN still doesn't fit
It works because I'm stupid. Should have been 2wiz/2clr/16TN.

Why not just...make it a base class? Oh wait...there -is- one like that. Its called the Dread Necromancer. Problem solved.
You know, PEACH means Please Evaluate and Critique (or Criticize, depending on the version) Honestly. You skipped right to Criticize. That said, the goal here is to fix a an existing and rather fun looking class that was horribly horribly underpowered.

A bunch of free feats, free spell-like abilities of spells that don't suck, and 1-for-1 casting progression? Considering the Mystic Theurge is devoid of class abilities and serves a similar multiclass role, I'm going to say this is probably overpowered. There was a reason the original True Necromancer class had a staggered 2/3 casting progression.

EDIT: Though I do agree with the poster above. If you're going to make 16 levels, might as well do the extra 4 and make a base class.

Also, DCs for spell-like abilities are almost always determined by Charisma, as it's the standard for innate casting, which spell-like abilities are. Stacking both of the caster's (presumably best) abilities is probably a bad idea as it creates spells with very high DCs.
I don't think the free feats and casting progression are overpowered for reasons I outlined above. It might make you more powerful than straight wizard or straight cleric, but any half decent PRC is a better choice. You might have a point with the DCs though. I'll think about it.

Then again, when you look at the -other- dual progression classes like Arcane Herio and Noctumancer, they get abilities. Mystic Theurge is widely considered way under powered. And for good reason.
And that's what I was trying to fix.

I've never actually heard of those, but yeah, I've seen things like the Eldritch Theurge which get abilities, but usually with full dual-caster progression in mind.
Still, one must be careful with handing out class features to such classes, as it's already a pretty nice treat, especially if the base classes lacked class features.
Except I don't think it's that nice of a treat. It gives you access to more spells sure, but not more powerful ones. In fact it makes you less powerful.

Mathmatically speaking, dual progression classes lose out. Espcially the Mystic Theurge who, without cheese, will never see level 9 spells. The least it can get is some abilities to make up for this. You can only cast one spell a road, two if your really going to stretch yourself and even then, they won't ever be your most powerful spells. This PrC isn't so much over powered, as missing the mark. There is a full base class that does exactly what this intends, and does it way better.
Look at the Pathfinder Version. Thats how it should be done.
I'll check out Pathfinder.

Wizard 1/Cleric 3 with Practiced Spellcaster(Wizard) qualifies. Cleric 1/Wizard 3 with Practiced Spellcaster(Cleric) qualifies as well. Technically Bard 7/Cleric 1 with the Summon Familiar feat and Practiced Spellcaster(Cleric) also qualfiies.
Yeah, I screwed that up.

If you are a human (need 4 feats, assuming scribe scrolls is free)
Humans are better anyways, and practiced spellcaster is a nice feat anyways.

Why does everyone keep saying that a normal mystic theurge doesn't get 9th level spells. Wizard 7/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10. You end up casting spells as a Wizard 17 (9th level spells)/Cleric 13 (7th level spells) without any degree of cheese. Your access is a bit delayed but the fact remains that you do get those spells.
As for this PrC, seems a bit bland to me but that might be what the doctor ordered in this situation. I've always felt that the SLAs were the weakest part of the original class, though.
Normal Mystic Theurge can get 9th level spells in one class, yes. Doesn't change the fact that it sucks. And yes this class is a bit bland but I think it should work out alright.

[SaintRidley]

I can't, for the life of me, think of a single reason a character with any inclination toward Necromancy at all would not take this class.

The obvious entry is Human. Wizard/Cleric or, with a flaw, Dread Necromancer/Archivist (flaw to get practised spellcaster for Dread Necro and at 3rd level take Obtain Familiar).

What do I need to get in?

Two feats that will boost my save DCs for my necromancy spells. Not bad. Lots of saves involved in necromancy early on. Weird that this doesn't require me to actually know any necromancy spells specifically, though.

Scribe Scroll doesn't fit thematically. It just seems you threw that in there because the two obvious entries have classes that give it as a bonus feat.

It doesn't require anything a necromancer probably wouldn't take at some point. No cruddy domains, no actually difficult requirements. Nothing is traded out. No requirements that really scream "necromancy". So, basically, I leave my base classes at level 5 for this and have no need to ever look back. Why would I want to. I get far too many things.

What do I get? For 16 levels, you get:

My familiar advances. I even get to add my non-arcane levels to my familiar. So 20 levels of familiar.

My turning advances. I get to add my non-turning levels to my turning. 20 levels of turning.

15 bonus feats. A single class fighter gains 11 bonus feats. A single class wizard gets four.

Lichdom. For free. Granted, twenty levels of Dread Necromancer would give me this too, but I get lichdom on top of all those feats, spell-like abilities (whose DCs get pumped up one by the transformation), and the caster level increase which guarantees I always have CL 20 when I pop out of this stuff.

9th level spells on both classes, guaranteed. Guaranteeing 9th level spells in two casting classes with one Prestige Class is a tad over the top, I think. You get more than just "I can heal and a few other utility stuff." You basically double your spells per day, so now you can just go on forever. Spellcasters are meant to run out of spells. That's why theurge classes are generally (with some exceptions) meant to only be doable for a chunk of the time, leaving you significantly behind in spell level and caster level. You catch up with this. You completely negate what the tradeoff of the theurge is supposed to be by making sure dual 9s happens.

A bonus to caster level for necromancy spells. More zombies for me.

Animate Dead as a spell-like ability. Two levels earlier than the Pale Master would, and let's not forget the lack of material component making this so wonderfully better than actually using it as a spell. The only thing missing from this class to make it everything a necromancer could want and more is the Dread Necromancer's Undead Mastery.

Fourteen more 1/day spell-like abilities. Why do I even need to dip into my actual spells when I can make it through the first two encounters of the day on spell-like abilities instead? And none of them suck. In fact, I get three 9th level spells as free casts, effectively.

And then I can take Mystic Theurge for my first ten levels in Epic and have 30/30 casting by level 30.


It's too powerful, too long, and too obvious a take. Knock it back a lot, I think. Make it ten levels like the MT, or stagger casting a bit. Cut out several of the bonus feats and spell-likes. The levels you took before that don't advance turning and familiar should not count toward turning and familiar all of a sudden as a result of taking this prestige class.

Require the Death domain. It sucks, but that's why it should be required. Require specific spells known and something bigger than CL 2. Make this class actually something where you have to sacrifice. Lose a school of magic. From both the arcane and divine spellcasting classes. Even if the arcane entry is already a specialist wizard.

Start by making this a sacrifice, then add in goodies to entice people to feel the sacrifice is worth it. Put the same level entry as MT and give it Undead Mastery at level 5 and Separate Control Pools (so your cleric casting and your wizard casting each get their own pool of undead to control, with Undead Mastery applying to both) at level 10. And now you've made them require a little MAD, which means they actually have to try with their stats a little.

This is just no sacrifice for a bunch of free goodies. That's too much, I think. This needs work. You've taken the TN from being a trap to being far too powerful. I wouldn't place it with the big four, but even the Arcane Hierophant looks on in awe of this guy.

[Dante & Vergil]

I like how you have the DC's of the class abilitites use both intelligence and wisdom, and the fact the class ends in lichdom.:smallbiggrin:

[Drolyt]

I can't, for the life of me, think of a single reason a character with any inclination toward Necromancy at all would not take this class.
Cause Incantatrix is better?

The obvious entry is Human. Wizard/Cleric or, with a flaw, Dread Necromancer/Archivist (flaw to get practised spellcaster for Dread Necro and at 3rd level take Obtain Familiar).
What do I need to get in?
Two feats that will boost my save DCs for my necromancy spells. Not bad. Lots of saves involved in necromancy early on. Weird that this doesn't require me to actually know any necromancy spells specifically, though.
Scribe Scroll doesn't fit thematically. It just seems you threw that in there because the two obvious entries have classes that give it as a bonus feat.
It doesn't require anything a necromancer probably wouldn't take at some point. No cruddy domains, no actually difficult requirements. Nothing is traded out. No requirements that really scream "necromancy". So, basically, I leave my base classes at level 5 for this and have no need to ever look back. Why would I want to. I get far too many things.
The entry wasn't supposed to be hard. The scribe scroll and familiar thing was to make it harder for non wizards.

What do I get? For 16 levels, you get:
My familiar advances. I even get to add my non-arcane levels to my familiar. So 20 levels of familiar.
Wow. Familiar's are so overpowered.

My turning advances. I get to add my non-turning levels to my turning. 20 levels of turning.
So? It's rebuking, so it's only really useful for starting an army.

15 bonus feats. A single class fighter gains 11 bonus feats. A single class wizard gets four.
They are all sucky feats that only exist for flavor. Seriously, they only make your minions stronger, not you.

Lichdom. For free. Granted, twenty levels of Dread Necromancer would give me this too, but I get lichdom on top of all those feats, spell-like abilities (whose DCs get pumped up one by the transformation), and the caster level increase which guarantees I always have CL 20 when I pop out of this stuff.
Lichdom is nice. Hell, it's the only real feature the class gets, everything else is flavor feats and spell-like abilities already on their list.

9th level spells on both classes, guaranteed. Guaranteeing 9th level spells in two casting classes with one Prestige Class is a tad over the top, I think. You get more than just "I can heal and a few other utility stuff." You basically double your spells per day, so now you can just go on forever. Spellcasters are meant to run out of spells. That's why theurge classes are generally (with some exceptions) meant to only be doable for a chunk of the time, leaving you significantly behind in spell level and caster level. You catch up with this. You completely negate what the tradeoff of the theurge is supposed to be by making sure dual 9s happens.
I'm not convinced that getting double the spells and access to a wider variety of spells is that strong really. I'd rather take IotSV. Honestly in all my time playing spellcasters I've never actually ran out of spells past maybe 10th level.

A bonus to caster level for necromancy spells. More zombies for me.
It makes up for the 2 levels you missed.

Animate Dead as a spell-like ability. Two levels earlier than the Pale Master would, and let's not forget the lack of material component making this so wonderfully better than actually using it as a spell. The only thing missing from this class to make it everything a necromancer could want and more is the Dread Necromancer's Undead Mastery.
The Pale Master sucks. You get this ability at the same level a straight cleric would.

Fourteen more 1/day spell-like abilities. Why do I even need to dip into my actual spells when I can make it through the first two encounters of the day on spell-like abilities instead? And none of them suck. In fact, I get three 9th level spells as free casts, effectively.
Still pathetic compared to Incantatrix. And almost every single one of them can be blocked with Death Ward, making you something of a one trick pony if you don't diversify.

And then I can take Mystic Theurge for my first ten levels in Epic and have 30/30 casting by level 30.
And then I take Epic Spellcasting and end the game. Epic wasn't taken into consideration.

It's too powerful, too long, and too obvious a take. Knock it back a lot, I think. Make it ten levels like the MT, or stagger casting a bit. Cut out several of the bonus feats and spell-likes. The levels you took before that don't advance turning and familiar should not count toward turning and familiar all of a sudden as a result of taking this prestige class.
I don't think it's an obvious take at all. I took something that totally sucks and made it a good option, but there are far better PRCs out there.

Require the Death domain. It sucks, but that's why it should be required. Require specific spells known and something bigger than CL 2. Make this class actually something where you have to sacrifice. Lose a school of magic. From both the arcane and divine spellcasting classes. Even if the arcane entry is already a specialist wizard.
I might go ahead and require the Death Domain.

Start by making this a sacrifice, then add in goodies to entice people to feel the sacrifice is worth it. Put the same level entry as MT and give it Undead Mastery at level 5 and Separate Control Pools (so your cleric casting and your wizard casting each get their own pool of undead to control, with Undead Mastery applying to both) at level 10. And now you've made them require a little MAD, which means they actually have to try with their stats a little.
I don't think you get the part where Mystic Theurge sucks. You aren't just worse than a Cleric or Wizard PRC, hell you aren't even as good as straight Cleric or Wizard: You are about as strong as a Fighter for most of your career in that PRC.

This is just no sacrifice for a bunch of free goodies. That's too much, I think. This needs work. You've taken the TN from being a trap to being far too powerful. I wouldn't place it with the big four, but even the Arcane Hierophant looks on in awe of this guy.
I think this class is perfectly reasonable. I really don't think it could manage to overshine a Cleric, Druid, Wizard, or Sorcerer until maybe 19th level when it finally catches up in highest spell level known. If said Cleric, Druid, Wizard, or Sorcerer took a top tier PRC they would leave True Necromancer in the dust.

[Realms of Chaos]

Okay, now for another quick look while I am fully awake.

I can't say that this is overpowered and won't even try. It mathematically falls behind most builds and so it is solid. Still, my inner idealist sighs when I see homebrew that fully acknowledges the truth that spells (and nothing else) make the world go round to make themselves balanced.

This class seems long and kind of strange looking at it now. It seems unnaturally stretched and like it kind of overlaps with the flavor of a pre-existing base class. Then again, there are tons of necromancer PrCs out there so it's no big deal if there's a bit of overlap.
Even so, I still think that the class seems stretched. Every level gives you mediocre (undead leadership aside) feats and SLAs that you'll probably never need (animate dead aside). This thing is supposed to be the master of arcane and divine necromancy but I'm not getting that vibe from this guy.

First of all, I know that this guy has so many levels specifically so that the dual progression can take you up to level 20. That said, why not reduce the number of levels in this class down to 14 or even the average 10 and give this guy a capstone that increases your arcane caster level (with spell slots and spells known) whenever a class level increases your divine caster and visa versa. In this way, you could take this class and even take a few levels in a decent PrC afterwards while continuing dual advancement.
Also, why not replace some of the SLAs with more organic (but not necessarily more powerful) special abilities, reflecting how are the "master" of both divine and arcane necromancy. Perhaps give the class back its desecration aura and give it some benefits like the ultimate magus.
Lastly, it seems a bit odd for me that this guy is starting dual advancement before most other classes have even entered a PrC. Although I acknowledge that it isn't overpowered and I know that this has been done before (see anima mage), it still makes me feel a bit uneasy.

[Drolyt]

Okay, now for another quick look while I am fully awake.

I can't say that this is overpowered and won't even try. It mathematically falls behind most builds and so it is solid. Still, my inner idealist sighs when I see homebrew that fully acknowledges the truth that spells (and nothing else) make the world go round to make themselves balanced.

This class seems long and kind of strange looking at it now. It seems unnaturally stretched and like it kind of overlaps with the flavor of a pre-existing base class. Then again, there are tons of necromancer PrCs out there so it's no big deal if there's a bit of overlap.
Even so, I still think that the class seems stretched. Every level gives you mediocre (undead leadership aside) feats and SLAs that you'll probably never need (animate dead aside). This thing is supposed to be the master of arcane and divine necromancy but I'm not getting that vibe from this guy.

First of all, I know that this guy has so many levels specifically so that the dual progression can take you up to level 20. That said, why not reduce the number of levels in this class down to 14 or even the average 10 and give this guy a capstone that increases your arcane caster level (with spell slots and spells known) whenever a class level increases your divine caster and visa versa. In this way, you could take this class and even take a few levels in a decent PrC afterwards while continuing dual advancement.
Also, why not replace some of the SLAs with more organic (but not necessarily more powerful) special abilities, reflecting how are the "master" of both divine and arcane necromancy. Perhaps give the class back its desecration aura and give it some benefits like the ultimate magus.
Lastly, it seems a bit odd for me that this guy is starting dual advancement before most other classes have even entered a PrC. Although I acknowledge that it isn't overpowered and I know that this has been done before (see anima mage), it still makes me feel a bit uneasy.

I like some of your recommendations. I think I'll try limiting it to ten levels. That is, when I get around to it. I think I'm abandoning this class for a while, to be picked up later. One thing though about why it is entered earlier is that it would suck otherwise. I don't care if your PRC makes you Pun Pun at 1st level, if you have to suffer through 6 levels (7 for a Sorcerer) of suck just to get there it's not worth it. A Cleric 3/Wizard 3 is pretty much weaker than Fighter 6, which is pretty amazing considering how poorly designed the Fighter is.

[SaintRidley]

Cause Incantatrix is better?


For the single-class caster. Dual progression is a different ballgame.




The entry wasn't supposed to be hard. The scribe scroll and familiar thing was to make it harder for non wizards.

Okay.



Wow. Familiar's are so overpowered.


Never implied they are. Advancement of one is generally one of the (small) sacrifices made to prestige out of Wizard or Sorcerer, though, so giving full advancement seems a little on the odd side.


So? It's rebuking, so it's only really useful for starting an army.

And when you picture a necromancer, what's one of the first things to come to mind?



They are all sucky feats that only exist for flavor. Seriously, they only make your minions stronger, not you.

Most necromancers would gladly take freebies that improve their minions. Longer lasting, deadlier minions means even less expenditure of precious spell slots. And since not a one of them requires any sacrifice to gain, you still have all your useful feat slots to go toward things that improve you. With necromancers, it's generally picking - improve yourself or improve your army, or do a little of both. Not a lot of both.



Lichdom is nice. Hell, it's the only real feature the class gets, everything else is flavor feats and spell-like abilities already on their list.

Indeed, it is the only real class feature here.



I'm not convinced that getting double the spells and access to a wider variety of spells is that strong really. I'd rather take IotSV. Honestly in all my time playing spellcasters I've never actually ran out of spells past maybe 10th level.

I'm not saying it's ridiculously powerful, but by now you have enough spells at a close enough level to the norm (you're 1 level behind everyone until the endgame, not nearly as terrible as being 2 levels behind) that you've effectively can't run out while still being useful (not quite up to date on spell levels toward the end, but not hopelessly behind).


It makes up for the 2 levels you missed.

It does. The idea of sacrificing something, even feat slots on practised spellcaster, is unnecessary with this class.



The Pale Master sucks. You get this ability at the same level a straight cleric would.

But better than a cleric does. As for Pale Master, it has its moments of value. Necromantically themed PrCs are rare, and for what it's worth (not terribly much, when more generic caster PrCs outshine it by so much) it is one of the best.



Still pathetic compared to Incantatrix. And almost every single one of them can be blocked with Death Ward, making you something of a one trick pony if you don't diversify.

Pathetic compared to the Incantatrix is, well, everything but things on par with the Incantatrix. If the Incantatrix is your standard of balance, something's wrong.

Compare yourself to other dual casters. Arcane hierophant, Eldritch Theurge and Eldritch Disciple make for reasonable benchmarks. If you want to make a dual caster, compare to dual casters.



And then I take Epic Spellcasting and end the game. Epic wasn't taken into consideration.
Noted.



I don't think it's an obvious take at all. I took something that totally sucks and made it a good option, but there are far better PRCs out there.

I should clarify. For anyone wanting necromancy and to dual cast, this is far too perfect. You put yourself one spell level behind (bad, but not completely terrible) and get all your flavour and zombie army feats taken care of without worry, get to become a lich for free, and get some spell-likes which don't suck.



I might go ahead and require the Death Domain.

Okay.



I don't think you get the part where Mystic Theurge sucks. You aren't just worse than a Cleric or Wizard PRC, hell you aren't even as good as straight Cleric or Wizard: You are about as strong as a Fighter for most of your career in that PRC.

Oh, I know the MT sucks. I know you're not as good as a single-class caster. You're still better than the fighter, though. Having spells at all makes you better than the fighter. But MT, being as bland and terrible as it is, is both a) better than the original True Necromancer and b) useful for finishing off Arcane Hierophant. It is not and should not be the benchmark for dual casters.




I think this class is perfectly reasonable. I really don't think it could manage to overshine a Cleric, Druid, Wizard, or Sorcerer until maybe 19th level when it finally catches up in highest spell level known. If said Cleric, Druid, Wizard, or Sorcerer took a top tier PRC they would leave True Necromancer in the dust.

That they would. Now, let's compare apples to apples. If they were to take up dual casting (and use the options that aren't traps), I'd say this still puts you well ahead of where a dual caster should be.

So, no, not overpowered when you compare to things like Incantatrix. Of course, nothing's overpowered compared to that beast. It is overpowered, I feel, for a dual-progression class. I should have clarified that.

I like the concept of trying to fix the True Necromancer. I really do. Necromancy is my favourite way to play. I think, though, that making this 16 levels of perfect dual casting is a bit much.

Like I said, make it a more normal 10 levels. Take out the spell-likes and the feats (maybe leave in a few from the Corpsecrafter line), add some actual class features, and you'll have something not only pretty good at the necromancy aspect but more in line with where Arcane Hierophant is, which isn't too bad.

[Drolyt]

For the single-class caster. Dual progression is a different ballgame.


Okay.



Never implied they are. Advancement of one is generally one of the (small) sacrifices made to prestige out of Wizard or Sorcerer, though, so giving full advancement seems a little on the odd side.

And when you picture a necromancer, what's one of the first things to come to mind?


Most necromancers would gladly take freebies that improve their minions. Longer lasting, deadlier minions means even less expenditure of precious spell slots. And since not a one of them requires any sacrifice to gain, you still have all your useful feat slots to go toward things that improve you. With necromancers, it's generally picking - improve yourself or improve your army, or do a little of both. Not a lot of both.


Indeed, it is the only real class feature here.


I'm not saying it's ridiculously powerful, but by now you have enough spells at a close enough level to the norm (you're 1 level behind everyone until the endgame, not nearly as terrible as being 2 levels behind) that you've effectively can't run out while still being useful (not quite up to date on spell levels toward the end, but not hopelessly behind).

It does. The idea of sacrificing something, even feat slots on practised spellcaster, is unnecessary with this class.


But better than a cleric does. As for Pale Master, it has its moments of value. Necromantically themed PrCs are rare, and for what it's worth (not terribly much, when more generic caster PrCs outshine it by so much) it is one of the best.


Pathetic compared to the Incantatrix is, well, everything but things on par with the Incantatrix. If the Incantatrix is your standard of balance, something's wrong.

Compare yourself to other dual casters. Arcane hierophant, Eldritch Theurge and Eldritch Disciple make for reasonable benchmarks. If you want to make a dual caster, compare to dual casters.


Noted.


I should clarify. For anyone wanting necromancy and to dual cast, this is far too perfect. You put yourself one spell level behind (bad, but not completely terrible) and get all your flavour and zombie army feats taken care of without worry, get to become a lich for free, and get some spell-likes which don't suck.


Okay.


Oh, I know the MT sucks. I know you're not as good as a single-class caster. You're still better than the fighter, though. Having spells at all makes you better than the fighter. But MT, being as bland and terrible as it is, is both a) better than the original True Necromancer and b) useful for finishing off Arcane Hierophant. It is not and should not be the benchmark for dual casters.



That they would. Now, let's compare apples to apples. If they were to take up dual casting (and use the options that aren't traps), I'd say this still puts you well ahead of where a dual caster should be.

So, no, not overpowered when you compare to things like Incantatrix. Of course, nothing's overpowered compared to that beast. It is overpowered, I feel, for a dual-progression class. I should have clarified that.

I like the concept of trying to fix the True Necromancer. I really do. Necromancy is my favourite way to play. I think, though, that making this 16 levels of perfect dual casting is a bit much.

Like I said, make it a more normal 10 levels. Take out the spell-likes and the feats (maybe leave in a few from the Corpsecrafter line), add some actual class features, and you'll have something not only pretty good at the necromancy aspect but more in line with where Arcane Hierophant is, which isn't too bad.

When I get around to redoing this I'll make it only 10 levels. I'm still not convinced that it's overpowered, it's certainly less powerful than single class cleric or wizard until 19th level. Just because it's more powerful than poorly designed classes like Mystic Theurge or Arcane Hierophant doesn't mean it's overpowered.

[Hyooz]

So... instead of any unique and interesting class abilities, you just get basically every feat out of Libris Mortis? Oh, and an additional cast of certain necromancy spells 1/day.

There is zero reason anyone wanting to play a necromancer wouldn't go this way. Heck, there's barely a reason someone who doesn't want to focus on necromancy wouldn't take this class. It's just free feats out the wazoo. So you can be a conjuration specialist and just have incredible necromancy on the side. This is literally everything a necromancer might want. This is a lot more powerful than you give it credit for, since there are entire builds based around only something like Destruction Retribution or Corpsecrafting in general.

Aside from that... it's just kind of boring. It does nothing interesting with the necromancy theme or someone dedicating themselves wholly to the craft. It just flips through LM and a couple other books and drops those into the class ability slot. Pale Master sucks compared to this, but it takes an interesting bent on Necromancy, at least.

[SaintRidley]

Just because it's more powerful than poorly designed classes like Mystic Theurge or Arcane Hierophant doesn't mean it's overpowered.

The MT is poorly-designed. Arcane Hierophant strikes an appropriate power level for a dual caster. Being more powerful than that makes you overpowered for a dual-caster. Dual casters should be weaker than single casters. Arcane Hierophant makes for an acceptable level of weaker while still having its own worth and making the MT somewhat useful. MT alone is just abysmal.

[DragoonWraith]

Dual casters should be weaker than single casters.
Why, on earth, do you believe this?

[Drolyt]

Why, on earth, do you believe this?

That's what I'm trying to figure out.

So... instead of any unique and interesting class abilities, you just get basically every feat out of Libris Mortis? Oh, and an additional cast of certain necromancy spells 1/day.

There is zero reason anyone wanting to play a necromancer wouldn't go this way. Heck, there's barely a reason someone who doesn't want to focus on necromancy wouldn't take this class. It's just free feats out the wazoo. So you can be a conjuration specialist and just have incredible necromancy on the side. This is literally everything a necromancer might want. This is a lot more powerful than you give it credit for, since there are entire builds based around only something like Destruction Retribution or Corpsecrafting in general.

Aside from that... it's just kind of boring. It does nothing interesting with the necromancy theme or someone dedicating themselves wholly to the craft. It just flips through LM and a couple other books and drops those into the class ability slot. Pale Master sucks compared to this, but it takes an interesting bent on Necromancy, at least.
Fair enough. I still don't think it's overpowered, but you are correct in that it is bland. I'm just going to blank the OP so people will stop saying what the last 5 people said. It was helpful criticism the first time.

[SaintRidley]

Why, on earth, do you believe this?

So you have a reason to be a single caster?

[DragoonWraith]

Nonono, they should, ideally, be equally powerful to make it a meaningful choice. You should not have to gimp yourself over it.

[SaintRidley]

Ignoring the MT and original TN, you do get a meaningful choice out of dual casters. You get your versatility, along with some abilities that mix your classes together. That blur the lines between what your individual classes are. You take a hit to overall power to do that.

I call that a meaningful and interesting choice.

They should be weaker, specifically in terms of spellcasting, because they have to be to really exist in the first place. Let class abilities make the choice interesting.

[Drolyt]

Ignoring the MT and original TN, you do get a meaningful choice out of dual casters. You get your versatility, along with some abilities that mix your classes together. That blur the lines between what your individual classes are. You take a hit to overall power to do that.

I call that a meaningful and interesting choice.

They should be weaker, specifically in terms of spellcasting, because they have to be to really exist in the first place. Let class abilities make the choice interesting.

Interesting does not make up for the fact that you suck.

[SaintRidley]

I'd hardly say something like the Arcane Hierophant sucks.

Compared to the Incantatrix, of course it does. Everything sucks when compared to the Incantatrix. Comparing things to the Incantatrix to prove they suck is absurd.

[Latronis]

And you still blow every non-caster out of the water

[Drolyt]

I'd hardly say something like the Arcane Hierophant sucks.

Compared to the Incantatrix, of course it does. Everything sucks when compared to the Incantatrix. Comparing things to the Incantatrix to prove they suck is absurd.

I shouldn't of used the Incantatrix, it was just the first thing that came to mind. You know what's stronger than Arcane Hierophant? Straight Druid. No PRCs.

[Drolyt]

And you still blow every non-caster out of the water

That's not true. The poorly built non-casters, yes. But some non-casters such as Rogues and Barbarians, or the Tome of Battle Classes, aren't so bad. A Mystic Theurge build will almost certainly be weaker than a properly built melee character.

[DragoonWraith]

Ignoring the MT and original TN, you do get a meaningful choice out of dual casters. You get your versatility, along with some abilities that mix your classes together. That blur the lines between what your individual classes are. You take a hit to overall power to do that.

I call that a meaningful and interesting choice.

They should be weaker, specifically in terms of spellcasting, because they have to be to really exist in the first place. Let class abilities make the choice interesting.
Pure dual-progression rarely adds significant versatility, at least to a Wizard.

[Latronis]

That's not true. The poorly built non-casters, yes. But some non-casters such as Rogues and Barbarians, or the Tome of Battle Classes, aren't so bad. A Mystic Theurge build will almost certainly be weaker than a properly built melee character.

www.ecksdee.com

I don't know where this idea that dual casters suck comes from, they only suck compared to single class counterparts.

They still reach points of campaign breaking power, though it is delayed a few more levels

[Drolyt]

www.ecksdee.com

I don't know where this idea that dual casters suck comes from, they only suck compared to single class counterparts.

They still reach points of campaign breaking power, though it is delayed a few more levels

I will admit that at the highest levels they are very powerful. However, you have to remember that non spellcasters can keep up with straight spellcasters for somewhere in the range of the first 4-12 levels, depending on how well you build your non spellcaster and what classes we are talking about. In fact a well built melee character can keep up with spellcasters for all 20 levels if the spellcaster isn't min-maxed; this is especially true for wizards which are very finicky, less true for CoDZilla which at high levels is broken even in the hands of a noob. Now Mystic Theurge cuts back your power by at least 3 levels. Assuming a well built Mystic Theurge that means you won't surpass a well built melee character till about 16th level, when you finally gain access to 7th level spells, maybe a little sooner. The other thing to remember is that tier 1 and 2 classes are most broken with prestige classes. For whatever reason, spellcaster prestige class options are far and above better than melee prestige class options. Finally it's important to note that Mystic Theurge's and the like are extremely unwieldy, even more so than wizard is.

As a side note, since I'm not really worried about this anymore would anyone like PEACH this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143523)?

[Latronis]

I'll have a look between matches