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Tyger
2010-02-28, 10:02 AM
If racial Hit Die were eliminated from Monstrous races (trolls, minotaur, etc) would it really present that much of a balance issue?

Sure, you'd likely get better stuff from class levels, but not all that much really. OK, it would depend on the class, but most folks taking huge LA critters as PC races aren't playing full casters anyway, so really its likely a smaller issue.

Sure, a Troll Crusader is an interesting concept to say the least, but the LA +5 seems to me more than adequate for the benefits.

Thoughts?

mostlyharmful
2010-02-28, 10:13 AM
The monsters with LA are weighted to allow them to function with RHDs included, at least so far as WotC knew how to value different advantages. To completely get rid of RHD as a balancing factor while keeping the LA that took them into account gets you some pretty screwy results, just look at the Stone Giant, RHD14, LA +4. Could you really see a fifth level character with Large Size, +11 Natural armour, Rock throwing/catching, +16 Str, +8 Con and +4 Dex? It would get even weirder when you start using outsiders or undead...

Removing RHD can work but it takes a LOT of thought and playtesting that you can't just wing by eye and that WotC couldn't do even if it was the sole focus of the damn book (Unearthed Cheese)

KellKheraptis
2010-02-28, 10:21 AM
The monsters with LA are weighted to allow them to function with RHDs included, at least so far as WotC knew how to value different advantages. To completely get rid of RHD as a balancing factor while keeping the LA that took them into account gets you some pretty screwy results, just look at the Stone Giant, RHD14, LA +4. Could you really see a fifth level character with Large Size, +11 Natural armour, Rock throwing/catching, +16 Str, +8 Con and +4 Dex? It would get even weirder when you start using outsiders or undead...

Removing RHD can work but it takes a LOT of thought and playtesting that you can't just wing by eye and that WotC couldn't do even if it was the sole focus of the damn book (Unearthed Cheese)

Quite frankly, I weigh WotC's idea of balanced races roughly the same as I do the importance of summoned trapfinders (it's expendable at best, and downright hilarious otherwise). That said, to the OP : Level drain them away. No more RHD problem!

grautry
2010-02-28, 10:23 AM
Perhaps.

As an example, you'd have to think what to do about the RHD = caster levels monsters like a Black Ethergaunt.

If you just removed the RHD and retained all the other benefits then a Black Ethergaunt would have 17 levels of Wizard casting and a +20 Intelligence modifier for 4 LA. Which is a recipe for capital D Disaster.

You'd probably have to deal with it on case-by-case basis. Some monsters might be okay without the RHD, some won't be.

Eldariel
2010-02-28, 10:27 AM
Yeah, eliminating RHD is the first step towards playable monstrous races. The second one is making LA cost something else than actual levels. 'cause no race is good enough to warrant being multiple spell levels behind in casting.

Weaker point buy, loss of some feats (though you gotta give enough for there to be anything to lose first), some blanket penalties on check, slightly slower XP accumulation, something of the sort. As it stands, the system is just plain dysfunctional.

KellKheraptis
2010-02-28, 11:18 AM
Perhaps.

As an example, you'd have to think what to do about the RHD = caster levels monsters like a Black Ethergaunt.

If you just removed the RHD and retained all the other benefits then a Black Ethergaunt would have 17 levels of Wizard casting and a +20 Intelligence modifier for 4 LA. Which is a recipe for capital D Disaster.

You'd probably have to deal with it on case-by-case basis. Some monsters might be okay without the RHD, some won't be.

Black Ethergaunts tend to be the exception to most LA/RHD rules, given that a single monster can match an entire party if you play them "Tippily" enough. Though that's more a function of the class ability it gains.

For the record, that little exercise above makes even the DW Kobold UM seem like a chump in terms of early access spellcasting.

tyckspoon
2010-02-28, 11:46 AM
If you want something to work with quickly, eliminate the lower of the HD or LA. Works fairly well for most things where one is much higher than the higher- you get level 4 Ogres, level 6 Minotaurs, LA-less Hobgoblins, level 4 Centaurs. They do have really nice stats, but consider that paid for by taking a 'class' (their racial HD) that gives stat boosts instead of class features. Gets a little weird when the HD/LA values are near even at the higher numbers- I think an HD-only Troll is probably still a little too strong for level 6. And it completely gets shot with racial-spellcasting critters- level 9 Couatls with level 9 Sorc casting, ethergaunts with level-appropriate casting plus a massive stat bonus- but those were always weird. I'd be mostly concerned with making LA/RHD work for people who just want to play more 'normal' monsters, like the giant-types.

Flickerdart
2010-02-28, 11:48 AM
You could just rule that monster HD casting doesn't advance. And then ban Ethergaunts.

Frosty
2010-02-28, 02:32 PM
I just homebrew everything, official balance be damned. Evaluate the monsters on a case by case basis. If, after eliminating all RHD, the base creature is too strong forits LA, then increase the LA. Simple as that. Or maybe keep a smattering of its RHD.

Mark Hall
2010-02-28, 03:08 PM
Generally, I deal with RHD in one of two ways.

1) Ignore it. This is especially true when it's only one or two HD, like Gnolls or Lizardmen.

2) Change it to an NPC class. A bit trickier, but, generally, NPC classes are equal or superior to most RHD (with Dragon and Outsider being notable exceptions). It's not a full class HD, but it can be useful, both in providing something like parity, and in making more interesting NPCs (in addition, I find it works well to train animals).

Runestar
2010-02-28, 08:54 PM
In theory, LA was (or at least, should have been) determined with RHD as a mitigating factor. For example, compare the ogre with the half-ogre. Both have the same LA+2, but the ogre has superior stats because he is also saddled with 4 giant HD (which are inferior to class lvs).

In practice, monster LAs are often so overly-inflated that you can safely remove the RHD for some of them and they should still end up pretty balanced. There will be a few which break the mold, mostly those with a lot of racial HD and relatively low LA, such as giants.

Pretty much hit and miss if you ask me. :smallyuk:

Tyger
2010-02-28, 08:58 PM
The two that have come up (so far) are the Minotaur and Troll.

Minotaur doesn't seem that bad, maybe a bit strong for just LA +2 (I would make it +3 actually) but Troll seems pretty high for LA 5 only. Hell, any PC Troll is going to get Acid and Fire resistance to keep that Regeneration flowing.

I thought about taking the Troll to 8, and leaving it at that.

For the record, its for a level 20 one shot game, so I am not redoing the entire LA system... I don't have that kind of masochistic streak in me. :)

Runestar
2010-02-28, 09:06 PM
For the record, its for a level 20 one shot game, so I am not redoing the entire LA system... I don't have that kind of masochistic streak in me. :)

Then you are better off just working with your DM to decide on a new ECL which you all feel is fair, and sticking to it. I would say troll is fair at ECL9 (6 giant HD, LA+3), considering MM5 now has the bladerager troll, which is also ECL11 but statistically superior in every aspect (including perma-mindblank!).

Kylarra
2010-02-28, 09:08 PM
I actually like RHD, and would rather eliminate the blank "levels" provided by LA.

As far as a oneshot goes, you're best off just trying to make a case to your DM for that one critter then.

sonofzeal
2010-02-28, 09:13 PM
RHD are a balancing factor. Some races outside of core are very powerful for their LA, because they depend on RHD keeping the ECL up. Check out the Marrulurk (Sandstorm) for an example off the top of my head. A +22 total stat mod, free Sneak Attack, two bonus feats, and a bunch of extras... for LA +1? Yeah right!

For ECL+4 though, they're not too bad. Still good, but reasonable.

Tyger
2010-02-28, 09:54 PM
See, here's the problem. I am the DM.

This all arises because one of my players has chosen to play a Dread Necromancer. 20th level. So he, at no cost to himself, becomes a lich. BOOM! +4 LA.

In fairness to the other players, we're looking into some free LAs for the rest of the group and then, of course, they are taking Leadership and twinking out their cohorts as well. The one that has me the most intruiged is a Half-Dragon Troll cohort... should be interesting to see what the player comes up with.

sonofzeal
2010-02-28, 10:05 PM
See, here's the problem. I am the DM.

This all arises because one of my players has chosen to play a Dread Necromancer. 20th level. So he, at no cost to himself, becomes a lich. BOOM! +4 LA.

In fairness to the other players, we're looking into some free LAs for the rest of the group and then, of course, they are taking Leadership and twinking out their cohorts as well. The one that has me the most intruiged is a Half-Dragon Troll cohort... should be interesting to see what the player comes up with.
Ah, well, that's different. That's an intended part of the class, and Liches really aren't worth LA+4 anyway. Don't worry about it. It's a nice class feature, but everyone else should be doing awesome things by then anyway (except the Fighter, but that's more a problem with the design of the class).

Kylarra
2010-02-28, 10:08 PM
Meh, in comparison to leadership cheese and an abundance of powerful caster PrCs, I'd say actually taking a base class to 20 for its capstone should be lauded, not nerfed by giving other people bonuses.

Greenish
2010-02-28, 10:09 PM
This all arises because one of my players has chosen to play a Dread Necromancer. 20th level. So he, at no cost to himself, becomes a lich. BOOM! +4 LA.That's not free LA, that's a class feature.

redlock
2010-02-28, 10:10 PM
well, then what HD would they gain? That must be accounted for first.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-28, 10:10 PM
I would rather have RHD then LA as a player...

Tyger
2010-02-28, 10:28 PM
Ah, well, that's different. That's an intended part of the class, and Liches really aren't worth LA+4 anyway. Don't worry about it. It's a nice class feature, but everyone else should be doing awesome things by then anyway (except the Fighter, but that's more a problem with the design of the class).

Whether or not lich is worth 4 LA isn't really the problem though. The problem is how to fairly deal with a class that gets a bunch of decent abilities at level 20, which pushes them into (technically) epic levels, while the rest of the party is limited to 20th level.

For comparison, if I had told everyone a level 20 game, and someone had decided he wanted to play a lich wizard, he would have been stuck at level 16 casting, so no level 9 spells.

And yes, there are far more broken things out there. This is not game breaking by any measure. But, I think its only fair that if one of the characters gets to be ECL 24, the rest should too.

Now, there is an argument that the 20th level of DN doesn't actually grant the template, but only the undead traits, and the use of a phylactery to insure "immortality" but that's a whole other issue.

It would be one thing if this was an ongoing campaign, where the players had yearned for level twenty and the DN had played a tier three class in a party of tier one and twos, to be able to have a pretty sweet capstone. But in a straight level twenty, one shot game, it seems unfair to the rest of the group.

sonofzeal
2010-02-28, 10:36 PM
Whether or not lich is worth 4 LA isn't really the problem though. The problem is how to fairly deal with a class that gets a bunch of decent abilities at level 20, which pushes them into (technically) epic levels, while the rest of the party is limited to 20th level.

For comparison, if I had told everyone a level 20 game, and someone had decided he wanted to play a lich wizard, he would have been stuck at level 16 casting, so no level 9 spells.

And yes, there are far more broken things out there. This is not game breaking by any measure. But, I think its only fair that if one of the characters gets to be ECL 24, the rest should too.

Now, there is an argument that the 20th level of DN doesn't actually grant the template, but only the undead traits, and the use of a phylactery to insure "immortality" but that's a whole other issue.

It would be one thing if this was an ongoing campaign, where the players had yearned for level twenty and the DN had played a tier three class in a party of tier one and twos, to be able to have a pretty sweet capstone. But in a straight level twenty, one shot game, it seems unfair to the rest of the group.
That's how it works though - he gains the features of a Lich, but not the LA.

Comparing Dread Necro 20 to a Lich Wizard 16 isn't fair - first because Lich really isn't worth the +4 LA for anybody, and second because Wizard is a substantially more powerful class in general than Dread Necro of the same level. The DN should be getting goodies, to justify being one. Taking away his goodies just because other people don't get the exact same ones is insulting to all the goodies everyone else gets (like all the awesome Sor/Wiz spells) that he doesn't.

Greenish
2010-02-28, 10:36 PM
Whether or not lich is worth 4 LA isn't really the problem though. The problem is how to fairly deal with a class that gets a bunch of decent abilities at level 20, which pushes them into (technically) epic levels, while the rest of the party is limited to 20th level.DN 20 is ECL 20. Becoming a lich is a class feature for DN, unlike slapping the template on a wizard.

In essence, you're punishing the player for having a single-classed tier 3 character. :smallyuk:

Mystic Muse
2010-02-28, 10:38 PM
DN 20 is ECL 20. Becoming a lich is a class feature for DN, unlike slapping the template on a wizard.


same for Salt Lich or whatever the capstone of walker in the waste is.

Gensh
2010-02-28, 10:39 PM
But, I think its only fair that if one of the characters gets to be ECL 24, the rest should too.

It isn't that the DN gets a free template: that's what the class has been building up to over the last 20 levels. The negative energy touch, natural armor, etc. that are all part of the lich template are class features granted along the way. The only thing that lvl20 gives the DN is the d12 HD at the expense of Con (don't let the player gimp his Con since he didn't have to play with it earlier), the ability mods, and the phylactery (which also doesn't really matter because he could just roll a wizard when his DN died).

Tyger
2010-02-28, 10:54 PM
It isn't that the DN gets a free template: that's what the class has been building up to over the last 20 levels. The negative energy touch, natural armor, etc. that are all part of the lich template are class features granted along the way. The only thing that lvl20 gives the DN is the d12 HD at the expense of Con (don't let the player gimp his Con since he didn't have to play with it earlier), the ability mods, and the phylactery (which also doesn't really matter because he could just roll a wizard when his DN died).

The permanent paralyzing touch, the +8 to a bunch of skills, the +5 to NA, the +7 DR, the immunities to cold, electric, polymorph, and mind effecting spells and effects... and of course the stuff you mentioned, the +6 to stats.

Not saying I think its worth LA 4... that's up for debate. But it is worth something, and in a game where they didn't have to earn their way there, there hasn't been any opportunity cost.

Customer Service (yes, I know, I don't like them either) did answer the question once (or so a net search showed) and said that level 20 DNs do not get the template, they just get the phylactery and use thereof. Granted, a lot of the lich templates abilities are just greater versions of the existing DNs class abilities, but there are more than a couple that are not there, and those that are replicated are generally boosted by the template.

Greenish
2010-02-28, 10:59 PM
Not saying I think its worth LA 4... that's up for debate. But it is worth something, and in a game where they didn't have to earn their way there, there hasn't been any opportunity cost. Why should there be opportunity costs for capstone abilities other than having to take all 20 levels?

Tyger
2010-02-28, 11:10 PM
Fair enough. Find me another base class that gets an LA + 4 as a capstone ability. Or anything that really compares. No PrCs (they have their own inherent issues).

I don't have encylopedic knowledge of all the classes, so I am hopeful there are some out there. It would make it a lot more palatable for me.

My inclination at this point is to stick with the original ruling we were operating under, and still give everyone their free LA+4. Its fun, which is what its all about. At this point, it is more of an intellectual exercise rather than a real issue.

ericgrau
2010-02-28, 11:12 PM
I could see counting HD and LA towards gish levels; i.e. any beyond the pre-req also boosts caster level. But only after you subtract any existing caster levels from monsters that already have casting.

Beyond that, balancing it is difficult because it depends both on how you use the monster and how much a level and related class abilities are worth (which increases the more books you allow). Oddly enough most players aren't so good with optimization without resorting to a lot of books, so they don't know how to fully utilize things like large size. That makes LA seem too high to them when really it's just the player. OTOH if you allow a lot of books a blanket reduction to LA could be reasonable. If you have new players or if splatbooks makes obtaining or defeating certain special abilities trivial, you could reduce the LA of the more complicated races.

sonofzeal
2010-02-28, 11:17 PM
I agree with Greenish - your opportunity cost is playing a Dread Necro 20, as opposed to a Wizard 20. It's a powerful capstone, probably one of the best single class features in the game, but that doesn't make the class unfair. Wizards are casting Wish and Gate and Timestop and whatnot by level 17, and DN doesn't get any of those. Again, don't begrudge him the toys he does get, because other fullcasters usually have better ones, and have had better ones all along. Level 20 is the DN's time to shine, so let him.

Greenish
2010-02-28, 11:28 PM
Fair enough. Find me another base class that gets an LA + 4 as a capstone ability. Or anything that really compares.Wizard capstone ability is being a level 20 wizard. :smalltongue:

It's the total of a character that should be thought of when comparing strengths, not an individual ability. DN gets a good capstone. Wizard has no capstone. Is DN thus stronger than wizard?

Kylarra
2010-02-28, 11:32 PM
Wizard capstone ability is being a level 20 wizard. :smalltongue:

It's the total of a character that should be thought of when comparing strengths, not an individual ability. DN gets a good capstone. Wizard has no capstone. Is DN thus stronger than wizard?Strictly speaking the wizard capstone is a bonus feat. :smalltongue: Also adding two spells of whatever level you want to your spellbook.

sofawall
2010-02-28, 11:40 PM
Fair enough. Find me another base class that gets an LA + 4 as a capstone ability. Or anything that really compares. No PrCs (they have their own inherent issues).

Dual-Stance from Warblade is hella-nice.

Noodles2375
2010-02-28, 11:42 PM
I agree with Greenish - your opportunity cost is playing a Dread Necro 20, as opposed to a Wizard 20. It's a powerful capstone, probably one of the best single class features in the game, but that doesn't make the class unfair. Wizards are casting Wish and Gate and Timestop and whatnot by level 17, and DN doesn't get any of those. Again, don't begrudge him the toys he does get, because other fullcasters usually have better ones, and have had better ones all along. Level 20 is the DN's time to shine, so let him.

I concur also. The DN is just not as good as the sorceror or psion much less the wizard. Letting the DN have his capstone is not unfair to the rest of the party.

Felyndiira
2010-03-01, 12:06 AM
Fair enough. Find me another base class that gets an LA + 4 as a capstone ability. Or anything that really compares. No PrCs (they have their own inherent issues).

Straight wizard 20. Polymorph any object into an Erinyes and boom - instant LA +7 adjustment (if you don't have access to outsider, there are tons of high LA stuff that you can PAO into permanently). Alternatively, shapechange yourself into a [insert high LA creature here] and change to other creatures should the situation demands.

There, we have something that DN doesn't get at level 20, which makes lichdom seem like a exercise in mediocrity.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-01, 12:27 AM
Also, DN 20 means no PrCing, which will substantially recuduce thier power level and versatility.

Thurbane
2010-03-01, 12:36 AM
This all arises because one of my players has chosen to play a Dread Necromancer. 20th level. So he, at no cost to himself, becomes a lich. BOOM! +4 LA.
Give the other players 4 free LA worth of templates?

Also, DN 20 means no PrCing, which will substantially recuduce thier power level and versatility.
I'd agree with a class like Sorc or Wiz, but DNs class features are pretty solid, and many of them (as well as casting) scale with level.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-01, 12:43 AM
Give the other players 4 free LA worth of templates?

I'd agree with a class like Sorc or Wiz, but DNs class features are pretty solid, and many of them (as well as casting) scale with level.

And I quote from the DN handbook:


Prestige Classes


You donít want to stay in the Dread Necromancer class? Why? Perhaps you want to add cheese to it, maybe you want to be able to melee a bit better, maybe you want to cast divine spells too (why?), maybe you want to really confuse your allies by taking a few levels of Druid. Who knows, but Dread Necro can be taken all the way to 20th w/o hamstringing yourself; the extra abilities arenít bad, and Lich Transformation is cool.

Good Drop Points


1st: You got rebuke undead. Combine w/ a level of Cleric for both Turn and Rebuke, if youíre Neutral (this is a Caelic idea).

2nd: You get DR 2, which is great, +1 BAB, and better saves.

6th: Fear Aura is king for melee, plus Vampiric Touch.

8th: (Kís dropout choice): You are an undead army monster, get the equivalent of Corpsecrafter plus, animate, dispel, fear, and black tentacles.

Other levels: you are reaching the point of diminishing returns past 8th, but thatís not necessarily a reason to drop out of the class on its own.

Sure staying in is not a bad idea, but you can get much more from PrCing.

BTW, do not give the other players free stuff. just make sure the DN puts points into CON. It is intended as a capstone, and is not overpowered. Just because the dragon disciple becomes half dragon does not mean it is free LA.

pffh
2010-03-01, 03:52 AM
Oslecamo has been doing fantastic work with monster classes in this thread
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142724
You might want to check it out if you want to play a monster PC.

Heliomance
2010-03-01, 07:26 AM
How unbalanced would it be to do the opposite: keep RHD, but simply eliminate all LA?

Obviously, players would need to adhere to the "don't be a ****" rule as regards template stacking.

Volkov
2010-03-01, 07:38 AM
How unbalanced would it be to do the opposite: keep RHD, but simply eliminate all LA?

Obviously, players would need to adhere to the "don't be a ****" rule as regards template stacking.

This (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Bloodthirster_of_Khorne_%283.5e_Monster%29) at level 1? Methinks I'd pass on that.

Oslecamo
2010-03-01, 07:55 AM
Yeah, eliminating RHD is the first step towards playable monstrous races. The second one is making LA cost something else than actual levels. 'cause no race is good enough to warrant being multiple spell levels behind in casting.

Weaker point buy, loss of some feats (though you gotta give enough for there to be anything to lose first), some blanket penalties on check, slightly slower XP accumulation, something of the sort. As it stands, the system is just plain dysfunctional.

How about condensating RHD and LA into an amount of HD that is equal to the Monster's CR, and then breaking up the monster abilities among the HD

Aka turning the monster in a class with ECL=CR?

Because that's what I've been doing in this thread for a week now. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7928088#post7928088)

Here, have a little sample.


Red dragon:

http://www.markeedragon.com/screenshots/data/3082/10red_dragon_attacks2-med.jpg

HD:d12
{TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feature
1 | +1 | +2|+0 |+2 |Red Dragon body, Arcane blood
2| +2| +3|+0 |+3 | Keen senses, Fire Breath
3| +3| +3|+1| +3| Blindsense 60 feets, Str+1, Con+1
4| +4| +4| +1|+4 | Wings
5| +5| +4| +1| +4| Tail slap, Growth
6| +6| +5|+2 |+5 | Red Dragon SLAs 1/day, +1 Cha
7| +7| +5| +2| +5| +1 Str, +1 Con
8| +8| +6| +2| +5| Red Dragon SLAs 2/day, +1 Cha
9| +9| | +6|+3 +6| +1 str, +1 con
10| +10| +7|+3 |+7 | Red Dragon SLAs 3/day, +1 Cha
11| +11| +7| +3|+7 | Arcane Skin
12| +12| +8| +4|+8 | Iron Scales, +1 Str, +1 Con
13| +13| +8| +4| +8| Growth, crush.
14| +14| +9| +4| +9| Frightfull presence
15| +15| +9| +5| +9| Red Dragon SLAs 4/day, +1 Cha
16| +16| +10| +5| +10| +1 str, +1 con
17| +17| +10| +5|+10 | Red Dragon SLAs 5/day, +1 Cha
18| +18| +11|+6 |+11 | +1 str, +1 con
19 | +19| +11| +6| +11| Red Dragon SLAs 6/day, +1 Cha
20| +20| +12| +6| +12| Growth, tail sweed.

[/TABLE]
2 Skill points+int per level, quadruple at 1st level. Class skills: Concentration, climb, jump, spot, listen, apraise, intimidate, Knowledge(any), spellcraft.

Proefeciencies: a red dragon isn't proefecient with any armor or weapons, besides his own natural weapons.


Features:
Dragon Body: The red dragon loses all other racial bonuses, and gains Dragon traits, fire subtype, bite 1d8 damage, 2 claws attack for 1d6 damage each and 40 base speed, medium size. The Red dragon has wings, but they're too weak to do anything for now. His claws are capable of fine manipulation and can be used for somatic components of spellcasting or anything else a human hand could do.

The red dragon also gets a natural armor bonus of 2+Con modifier. Whenever the red dragon grows one size category, his natural armor increases by a further 1.


Arcane Blood:A red dragon receives spells known and spells per day as a bard of same level, but he casts as a sorceror and takes his spells known from the sorceror/wizard spell list.

Keen senses:The red dragon sees four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120 feet.

Fire Breath:cone 30 feet dealing 1d6 damage/HD with DC ref of 10+1/2 HD+Con modifier for half every 1d4 turns. Cone increases by 5 feets with each extra HD the player takes from here.

Blindsense:as the normal ability, range 60 feets.

Ability score increase: The red dragon ability scores increase by the shown amount.

{table]Level | Total bonus gained
3 | +1 Str, +1 Con
6 | +1 Str, +1 Con, +1 Cha
7 | +2 Str, +2 Con, +1 Cha
8 | +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha
9 | +3 Str, +3 Con, +2 Cha
10 | +3 Str, +3 Con, +3 Cha
12 | +4 Str, +4 Con, +3 Cha
15 | +4 Str, +4 Con, +4 Cha
16 | +5 Str, +5 Con, +4 Cha
17 | +5 Str, +5 Con, +5 Cha
18 | +6 Str, +6 Con, +5 Cha
19 | +6 Str, +6 Con, +6 Cha

[/table]



Wings:The red dragon becomes able to fly at the speed of 10 feets per HD, with poor maneuverability. The maneuverability doesn't increase naturaly, but players can take the Savage Species feat that increases it by two steps(stackable). Each wing can also be now used to deliver a natural atack dealing 1d4 damage.

Growth:At 5th level the red dragon grows to large size.
At 13th level the red dragon grows to huge size.
At 20th level the red dragon grows to gargantuan size.

His AC, bonus to hit, base damage, grapple and skills change acordingly, but he doesn't get any ability score bonus or penalties.

Tail slap:The red dragon can now make a tail slap attack dealing 1d8 damage(already taking in acount large size).

Red dragon SLAs: the red dragon can use locate object and sugestion as SLAs, a number of times per day as indicated in the table.

Arcane skin: The red dragon gains SR equal to his HD+11.

Iron Scales: The red dragon gains DR/magic equal to half his HD.

Crush: The dragon can make a crush attack dealing 2d8 damage base, already taking in acount huge size
This special attack allows a flying or jumping dragon of at least Huge size to land on opponents as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against opponents three or more size categories smaller than the dragon (though it can attempt normal overrun or grapple attacks against larger opponents).

A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragonís body. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC equal to that of the dragonís breath weapon) or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they donít escape.

A crush attack deals the indicated damage plus 1Ĺ times the dragonís Strength bonus (round down).

frightfull presence:The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead. Creatures within a radius of 30 feet ◊ half the dragon's level are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + Ĺ dragonís HD + dragonís Cha modifier) remains immune to that dragonís frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons.

Tail sweep:This special attack allows a dragon of at least Gargantuan size to sweep with its tail as a standard action. The sweep affects a half-circle with a radius of 30 feet (or 40 feet for a Colossal dragon), extending from an intersection on the edge of the dragonís space in any direction. Creatures within the swept area are affected if they are four or more size categories smaller than the dragon. A tail sweep automatically deals 2d6 plus 1Ĺ times the dragonís Strength bonus (round down). Affected creatures can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage (DC equal to that of the dragonís breath weapon).



Personal coments:
So this class allows you to play a dragon up to gargantuan size. You can breath, get some SLAs, natural armor, limited but usefull arcane casting, sold skills, fly, some ability score increases, and always have HD equal to your character level. It should be more than able to hold his own in any average/high powered campaign, being a tank, suport arcane caster of Jack of all trades.

You can also multiclass out at any time, and around half your class abilities will keep increasing, not counting the spellcasting wich can be increased by taking prcs that increase it.

Troll
http://garrafalegion.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/trolldyd.jpg

HD:d8
{TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feature
1 | +0 | +2|+0 |+0|Troll body, Str+1, Con+1
2| +1| +3|+0 |+0 | Regeneration, Str+1, Con+1
3| +2| +3|+1| +1| Scent, Str+1, Con+1
4| +3| +4| +1|+1 | Rend, Str+1, Con+1
5| +3| +4| +1| +1| Growth , Str+1, Con+1

[/TABLE]
Skills: 4+int modifier per level, quadruple at first level. Class skills spot, listen, climb, jump, swim, knowledge(nature, geography, war), handle animal, intimidate, ride, tumble.

Proefeciencies: all simple and martial weapons and his own natural weapons.

Features:
Troll body: the troll loses all other racial bonuses, and gains giant traits, a base speed of 30 feet, two claw attacks and one bite attack dealing 1d4 damage each. He also gains a natural armor bonus equal to his own Con modifier.

Ability score increase:a troll gains +1 Str and +1 Con for each level in this class.

Regeneration: Equal to half his HD. Fire and acid deal normal damage to a troll. If a troll loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 3d6 minutes. The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

Scent: a troll gains the scent extraordinary ability.

Rend:If a troll hits with both claw attacks, it latches onto the opponentís body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an
additional 2d6+1,5 Str modifier points of damage.

Growth:The troll grows to large size.His AC, bonus to hit, base damage, grapple and skills change acordingly, but he doesn't get any ability score bonus or penalties.


And for all you spellcaster lovers, pseudo-spellcaster monsters like the Mind Flayer get bonus for taking certain caster classes wich allow them to keep up with actual casters. The red dragon for example has the spell slots and spell knowns of a bard but takes spells from the sorceror spell list. You can then stop taking red dragon levels and pick up sublime chord to get 9th level spells before 20th level, having fullcaster level meanwhile.

Kylarra
2010-03-01, 10:30 AM
This (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Bloodthirster_of_Khorne_%283.5e_Monster%29) at level 1? Methinks I'd pass on that.I'll just point out a few flaws with this retort.

A)You're linking from D&D Wikia's homebrew section, an area notorious for suckage on all ends of the spectra.
B)LA - != LA 0
C)50 RHD

Volthawk
2010-03-01, 12:27 PM
There is this method (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Playing_Unusual_Races#Converting_Monsters_Into_Cha racters), which I found linked to on the forum.

Basically, one way is making it start at CR+1 level, and stat mods made by subtracting the elite array from it's base stats.

The other needs more judgement, but is also decent.

I haven't actually playtested these, but they look decent enough.

nyarlathotep
2010-03-01, 12:52 PM
Fair enough. Find me another base class that gets an LA + 4 as a capstone ability. Or anything that really compares. No PrCs (they have their own inherent issues).

I don't have encylopedic knowledge of all the classes, so I am hopeful there are some out there. It would make it a lot more palatable for me.

My inclination at this point is to stick with the original ruling we were operating under, and still give everyone their free LA+4. Its fun, which is what its all about. At this point, it is more of an intellectual exercise rather than a real issue.

If you give everyone a free AL +4 template then why should the dread necro bother to stay in his base class to begin with. He could prestige class out and get the exact same thing.

A dread necromancer becoming a lich at 20th level is no different than a monk becoming an outsider at 20th level. The monk gets damage reduction an a lot of blanket immunities. The necromancer gets blanket immunities and some stat gain. He really doesn't get any other the lich's other abilities because they were already built into the dread necro class before that (the touch attack, resistance to crits, and damage reduction).

It's exactly the same as all the prestige classes that give you templates.

Oh and the WotC customer service line gives a different answer to that question every time you call them.