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LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-02, 12:18 PM
Hey. I'm working on a Vashar Sohei/Blackguard build (See LE Sohei Build [3.5] and am making him a Damage-Monster. However, I'm using a Halberd for the "reach out and touch somebody"-type effect. I just want to know how to improve the damage on a Medium Halberd using only feats and enchantments. No spells, no psi, no incarnum. Just martial power.

I know of thus far:

Vile Martial Strike:+1 Vile Damage
Flay Opponent: +1d6 for Slashing

nyarlathotep
2010-03-02, 12:21 PM
As you already have power attack and a two handed weapon leap attack is sort of a no brainer.

Person_Man
2010-03-02, 12:21 PM
Here you go (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087).

Also, if you're playing a Blackguard, you should take Dire Flail Smash (Daze effect) and/or Sneak Attack feats (especially Craven, Staggering Strike, and Dragonfire Inspiration).

Mongoose87
2010-03-02, 12:22 PM
However, I'm using a Halberd for the "reach out and touch somebody"-type effect.

FYI, Halberds don't have reach.

lsfreak
2010-03-02, 12:25 PM
Power Attack + Shock Trooper + Leap Attack. You get 4:1 returns on Power Attack and take no penalty to your to-hit. That's going to be your primary one. Preferably combine with some method of Pounce, though some DM's rule that the Leap Attack increase is only on the first hit.

Vile Martial Strike and Flay Opponent are both hideously underpowered. +4.5 damage for two feats, and it drops to +1 against anyone in armor? That's worse than Weapon Specialization, which is already among the bottom-rung feats.

Also, just to make sure you know, a halberd is not a reach weapon.

See Person_Man's threads on Pouncing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) and on melee combos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026), especially the sections on Power Attack and Optimizing To-Hit.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-02, 12:26 PM
FYI, Halberds don't have reach.

I know. I took Shorten Grip, which thus gives it the ability to hit adjacent foes. Plus, its more of a figure of speech over an actuallity

Plus, I just like that nice and big d12 :smalltongue:

lsfreak
2010-03-02, 12:27 PM
I know. I took Shorten Grip, which thus gives it the ability to hit adjacent foes. Plus, its more of a figure of speech over an actuallity

Plus, I just like that nice and big d12 :smalltongue:

You don't need Shorten Grip. It can't hit anyone 10 feet away to begin with, only 5 feet.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-02, 12:27 PM
Power Attack + Shock Trooper + Leap Attack. You get 4:1 returns on Power Attack and take no penalty to your to-hit. That's going to be your primary one. Preferably combine with some method of Pounce, though some DM's rule that the Leap Attack increase is only on the first hit.

Vile Martial Strike and Flay Opponent are both hideously underpowered. +4.5 damage for two feats, and it drops to +1 against anyone in armor? That's worse than Weapon Specialization, which is already among the bottom-rung feats.

Also, just to make sure you know, a halberd is not a reach weapon.

See Person_Man's threads on Pouncing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) and on melee combos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026), especially the sections on Power Attack and Optimizing To-Hit.

Don't go knocking Flay Opponent! An additional 1d6 with any slashing weapon is, at least in my eyes, a valuable feat...

Mongoose87
2010-03-02, 12:28 PM
I know. I took Shorten Grip, which thus gives it the ability to hit adjacent foes. Plus, its more of a figure of speech over an actuallity

Plus, I just like that nice and big d12 :smalltongue:

There's no reason to take shorten grip - you can only hit adjacent opponents.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-02, 12:30 PM
There's no reason to take shorten grip - you can only hit adjacent opponents.

Hey. I've been in situations where that was useful...

If anything, I'll put Battle Jump in for that

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-02, 12:32 PM
You don't need Shorten Grip. It can't hit anyone 10 feet away to begin with, only 5 feet.

Which is one of the dumbest things WotC has ever done, since Halberds are actual reach weapons...


@ Lich: If you want to save on some feats, devote yourself to an Elder Evil. This gets you Vile Martial Strike for next to nothing. It also opens up Master's Will, which can improve your attack rolls 50% of the time (and for the other 50%, you could take Crusader levels to get bonuses to attack and damage rolls). Boosting your attack rolls means you can Power Attack for more.

Also, look into Destruction Devotion from CC. It lowers their Armor Class every time you hit them, which means more Power Attack.


Hey. I've been in situations where that was useful...

If anything, I'll put Battle Jump in for that


Halberds are not reach weapons, Short Haft doesn't work with them.

lsfreak
2010-03-02, 12:35 PM
Lich, you're not getting it. You can't hit opponents more than 5 feet away form you anyways. The feat does NOTHING for you.

Also, where's Flay Opponent from? There's Flay Foe (+1dmg for every hit you make in a round) from Champions of Ruin, and Flay (-2 on attack rolls) in PHB2.

Either way, let's compare:
Flay Opponent: +3.5 damage a hit.
Power Attack + Leap Attack + Shock Tropper: 4 times your level in extra damage. When you can get the full combo at level 6, it already does +24 damage a hit - almost 7 times as much as Flay Opponent. By level 10, it's more than 10 times as effective.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-02, 12:36 PM
Which is one of the dumbest things WotC has ever done, since Halberds are actual reach weapons...


@ Lich: If you want to save on some feats, devote yourself to an Elder Evil. This gets you Vile Martial Strike for next to nothing. It also opens up Master's Will, which can improve your attack rolls 50% of the time (and for the other 50%, you could take Crusader levels to get bonuses to attack and damage rolls). Boosting your attack rolls means you can Power Attack for more.

Also, look into Destruction Devotion from CC. It lowers their Armor Class every time you hit them, which means more Power Attack.




Halberds are not reach weapons, Short Haft doesn't work with them.

Okay. So drop Vile Strike, devote myself to a Homebrew Elder Evil (In our campaign, any devil minus Asmodeus is an Elder Evil, as is any demon lord minus Demogorgon and Orcus [Yes, Orcus is a god]), and Power Attack spam until they drop dead?

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-02, 12:37 PM
Lich, you're not getting it. You can't hit opponents more than 5 feet away form you anyways. The feat does NOTHING for you.

Also, where's Flay Opponent from? There's Flay Foe (+1dmg for every hit you make in a round) from Champions of Ruin, and Flay (-2 on attack rolls) in PHB2.

Either way, let's compare:
Flay Opponent: +3.5 damage a hit.
Power Attack + Leap Attack + Shock Tropper: 4 times your level in extra damage. When you can get the full combo at level 6, it already does +24 damage a hit - almost 7 times as much as Flay Opponent. By level 10, it's more than 10 times as effective.

So I can't tack both in?

Plus, its the one from CoR, not PHII

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-02, 12:50 PM
So I can't tack both in?

Plus, its the one from CoR, not PHII

Flay Opponent doesn't work the way you think it does (the chart says 1d6, but the feat itself says 1).

Person_Man
2010-03-02, 01:43 PM
Don't go knocking Flay Opponent! An additional 1d6 with any slashing weapon is, at least in my eyes, a valuable feat...

Well, your eyes obviously haven't read many Feats. And that's ok, everyone was new to the game once. So welcome to the community.

In general, strong feats provide a scaled bonus or a useful special ability that can't easily be reproduced with a magic item. Weak feats provide a static bonus, and/or require a contingency that is hard to fulfill, and/or have severely limited use and/or can more efficiently be replaced by something else.

Here are a few examples:

Scaled bonuses:

Power Attack
Leap Attack
Spirited Charge
Headlong Rush
Battle Jump
Empower Spell
Craven
Animal Devotion
Anything that provides an extra attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595) without a contingency


Useful Special Abilities

Leadership
Knockback
Knock-Down
Scorpion's Grasp
Standstill
Travel Devotion
Arcane Schooling
Mage Slayer
Saddleback
Imperious Command
Combat Acrobat
Item Familiar


Static bonus:

Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Skill Focus
Dodge
Mobility
Point Blank Shot
Flay Opponent
Toughness
Deadly Defense
Earth Adept
Fiery Fist


Require a contingency that is hard to fulfill:

Cleave
Improved Cleave
Sailorís Balance
Filth Eater
Brachiation
Endurance
Crowd Tactics
Overwhelming Assault


Severely Limited Uses

Servant of the Heavens
Highborn Drow
Natural Trickster
Heroic Destiny
Protected Destiny
Dallah Thaunís Luck
Favored of the Companions
Knight of Stars


Replaced by something else

Spring Attack (replaced by Pounce or Free Movement)
Mobility (replaced by Tumble)
Improved Critical (replaced by Scabbard of Keen Edges)
Heavy Armor Proficiency (replaced by mithral, spells, magic items, etc)
Monkey Grip (replaced by Strongarm Bracers)
Hear the Unseen (replaced by See Invisibility)
Driving Attack (replaced by Knockback)


Also note that sometimes strong feats have weak feats for pre-requisites, which must be taken into account when you are choosing your build. For example, Whirlwind Attack is a nifty option, but requires 3 weak feats. Similarly, Improved Initiative provides a static bonus. But if combat for your party is usually over in 2 rounds, then a +4 to Initiative might be worth it. Everything also depends on the context of your build and your DM, but some feats are clearly stronger then others.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-02, 02:40 PM
So the trio (Flay, Bludgeon, and Skewer Foe) don't add +1d6 to all atacks???

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-02, 03:01 PM
So the trio (Flay, Bludgeon, and Skewer Foe) don't add +1d6 to all atacks???

The last two do, but the Slashing one doesn't. It was likely misprinted.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-02, 03:03 PM
The last two do, but the Slashing one doesn't. It was likely misprinted.

...? What? The feat, even if misprinted, should be treated as "canon," thus it deals a more devistating slash, dealing more damage, much like how Bludgeon foe and Skewer foe work...

Zom B
2010-03-02, 03:20 PM
It doesn't really matter if there is a pattern between it and similar feats. When the summary says one thing and the actual feat says something else, you have to go with the actual feat, barring a DM ruling to the otherwise. Just like in the Spell Compendium, Thunderhead (is that the spell name?) is listed in the spell list as a 0-level spell that deals 1 damage per round. However, the actual spell description lists it as a 1st level spell that deals 1d6 damage per round.

As far as raw damage, pretty much all of your options have already been listed. Since you're going with a halberd, there's the Spinning Halberd feat in, IIRC, Complete Warrior, that lets you attack with the butt of the halberd for 1d6 damage as if the halberd were a double weapon. Requires TWF as a prereq, which is not normally something you pick with a halberd.

sofawall
2010-03-02, 03:33 PM
...? What? The feat, even if misprinted, should be treated as "canon," thus it deals a more devistating slash, dealing more damage, much like how Bludgeon foe and Skewer foe work...

Exactly. It was misprinted to do 1 damage instead of 1d6, and thus is treated as doing 1 damage, canonically.

Please, if we suggest something is being misread, please go see what is being talked about.

faceroll
2010-03-02, 03:44 PM
Blackguards give turning, right?
Pick up some devotion feats.

Thurbane
2010-03-02, 05:07 PM
Just to make sure the OP understands...halberds do not have reach. At all. So you cannot use the Shorten Haft feat with a halberd.

Just so we're all clear. :smallwink:

...and yes, FWIW making a halberd a non-reach weapon was one of the most counter-intuitive things WotC did in 3.X.

Halberd is eligible for the Spinning Halberd style feat in Complete Warrior. This requires a ton of prereq feats, though, and is hardly worth the payoff.

faceroll
2010-03-02, 05:10 PM
Take a small race without a str penalty (they exist). Apply the half-minotaur and half-ogre templates from DR 313. You get +20 str, +8 con, -4 dex, and are large. Pick up combat expertise, imp trip, and knockdown.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-02, 05:12 PM
...and yes, FWIW making a halberd a non-reach weapon was one of the most counter-intuitive things WotC did in 3.X.


I discovered it after 4 yeras of 3.5. I cried.

Even if, maybe I'm wrong, but I found halberd depicted as shorter than, say, glaives or guisarmes..

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-02, 05:18 PM
yeras

Ok, I know it's a typo, but that needs to be a real word.

Thurbane
2010-03-02, 05:21 PM
Don't worry Kaiyanwang, it's not just you, everyone I've played 3.X with, including myself, has started with the assumption that the halberd is a reach weapon. :smallfrown:

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-02, 05:23 PM
Don't worry Kaiyanwang, it's not just you, everyone I've played 3.X with, including myself, has started with the assumption that the halberd is a reach weapon. :smallfrown:

It gets really jarring when you started RPGs with Warhammer Fantasy, where Halberds were amongst the best weapons in the game. Imagine my surprise...

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-02, 06:00 PM
Ok, I know it's a typo, but that needs to be a real word.

It will be the name of my next homebrew monster. I promise.

And it will use halberds. REACH halberds.