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ChakraChanter
2010-03-04, 04:56 AM
So, I know this has been asked before, but I would like some clarification.

What are the arguments from the Warblade? Pros and Cons

Me personally, I hate it. I think it's rediculously over-powered. I DMed a campaign where I have a player who likes to use powerful classes and behold the Warblade he presented me with. We had a Favored Soul, Necromancer, a Duskblade, and a Beguiler, but I have to say he by far outshined them.

I dislike the fact that there's a stance, that when an enemy take a 5-foot adjustment, he still suffers an AOO (it really bugs me). Second, he has these manuevers that allow him to replace any save with a concentration check that doesn't fail on a natural 1. He has 12HD when the poor fighter has 10HD and more skill points... Fourth, he can replenish all these manuevers with a 'flurry of his blades, even into thin air.

Then there's nitemare ruby blade, and time stands still, etc. Then, these aren't 'spells' so no creature can avoid them, not even partially..

But I do acknowledge that melee does want to have nice things too:smalltongue: Which, unfortunately some poeple fail to see, including myself.

But I implore you, I exhort you fellow playgrounders, please give your opinions so that I may not be so ignorant or biased.

Satyr
2010-03-04, 05:01 AM
It's not the Warblade that is overpowered, it is the fighter which is seriously underpowered, as are most non-magical classes in standard D&D 3.5. The Tome of Battle is actually a patch for this problem, the point were even WOTC acknowledged that fighter and co are pretty much unsalvageable when compared to wizards, clerics or druids.
And if you compare the Warblade with these, it's still lacking behind.

Goonthegoof
2010-03-04, 05:03 AM
I dislike the fact that there's a stance, that when an enemy take a 5-foot adjustment, he still suffers an AOO (it really bugs me).

If you're in that stance you're giving up the opportunity for other stances. It's a strong ability, but it's situational and it's not like you don't lose anything by getting it.



Second, he has these manuevers that allow him to replace any save with a concentration check that doesn't fail on a natural 1.

Maneuvers that only apply to a particular save, so if you want to be use them against all saves you have to use up half of your readied maneuver slots.



He has 12HD when the poor fighter has 10HD and more skill points... Fourth, he can replenish all these manuevers with a 'flurry of his blades, even into thin air.

Comparing a warblade to a fighter isn't really fair, it's universally acknowledged that fighter is a terrible terrible class. I don't get what you mean by 'even into thin air' though, so I can't comment.



Then there's nitemare ruby blade, and time stands still, etc. Then, these aren't 'spells' so no creature can avoid them, not even partially..
Except by having some AC. Any creature can avoid them completely- Just because they target AC doesn't make them unavoidable.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-04, 05:07 AM
So, I know this has been asked before, but I would like some clarification.

What are the arguments from the Warblade? Pros and Cons

Me personally, I hate it. I think it's rediculously over-powered. I DMed a campaign where I have a player who likes to use powerful classes and behold the Warblade he presented me with. We had a Favored Soul, Necromancer, a Duskblade, and a Beguiler, but I have to say he by far outshined them.

I dislike the fact that there's a stance, that when an enemy take a 5-foot adjustment, he still suffers an AOO (it really bugs me). Second, he has these manuevers that allow him to replace any save with a concentration check that doesn't fail on a natural 1. He has 12HD when the poor fighter has 10HD and more skill points... Fourth, he can replenish all these manuevers with a 'flurry of his blades, even into thin air.

Then there's nitemare ruby blade, and time stands still, etc. Then, these aren't 'spells' so no creature can avoid them, not even partially..

But I do acknowledge that melee does want to have nice things too:smalltongue: Which, unfortunately some poeple fail to see, including myself.

But I implore you, I exhort you fellow playgrounders, please give your opinions so that I may not be so ignorant or biased.

Creatures can avoid warblade maneuvers just as they can avoid a charging leap-attacking raging power-attacking ubercharger's attack. They use armor class. Many of the maneuvers that have effects other than damage do allow saves or require a roll on the warblade's part against some attribute of the opponent.

Duskblades are quite powerful as well and are easily on par with warblades in most cases.

If you allow wizards and druids and the majority of the PHB spells, there is little reason to disallow warblades.

Your player who likes to play powerful characters is likely playing at a higher level of optimization than the others. If this is true, he could likely 'outshine' the others with most playable classes.

Someone else might be able to supply some numbers to compare warblades to other given classes at various levels and demonstrate, but the bottom line will be whether you are willing to be convinced or not. Most people who dismiss ToB out-of-hand are not willing to be convinced. If you don't want them in your game, don't allow them.

obnoxious
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ChakraChanter
2010-03-04, 05:10 AM
Comparing a warblade to a fighter isn't really fair, it's universally acknowledged that fighter is a terrible terrible class.

You clearly left out the part where I acknowledge "..the poor fighter", providing my sympathy.:smallconfused:

Edit: Okay, well while I acknowledge how the Tier system works, I would like to be more specific. In speaking how purely combat efficient the class is

Gnaritas
2010-03-04, 05:10 AM
I don't get what you mean by 'even into thin air' though, so I can't comment.

To reset his readied maneuvers a warblade makes an attack, with the option to attack the air in front of him.

ChakraChanter
2010-03-04, 05:19 AM
Maneuvers that only apply to a particular save, so if you want to be use them against all saves you have to use up half of your readied maneuver slots.

Yeah, well in the case of living or dying (especially at higher levels) I don't see much of a loss, [and the Warblade can the rearrange his manuevers prepared with a full round action], or is that a different class. Then you could have your damage spells, along with your stances. Then replenish yourself when you're out..:smalltongue:

Ernir
2010-03-04, 05:19 AM
You will find that the overwhelming consensus here is that the Warblade (along with the rest of the ToB) classes is not overpowered. Rather, that it is the best thing to happen for melee since pointy sticks were invented.

I happen to agree with that consensus. :smalltongue:


The thing about the Warblade is that it is powerful out of the box. So if your group generally doesn't place an emphasis on making strong characters (e.g. they play unmodified Monks and Fighters with Weapon Specialization), it is probably going to outshine them handily.
On the other hand, if the group is playing optimized Wizards, Clerics and Druids... the Warblade is going to get left in the dust, and there's not much it can do about it.

To phrase it differently... the Warblade has a relatively narrow power range. If this power range is above the one your group plays at, it's going to look/be overpowered.

Pluto
2010-03-04, 05:26 AM
Me personally, I hate it. I think it's rediculously over-powered. I DMed a campaign where I have a player who likes to use powerful classes and behold the Warblade he presented me with. We had a Favored Soul, Necromancer, a Duskblade, and a Beguiler, but I have to say he by far outshined them.
Out of curiosity, what level was this game?
Tome of Battle classes are some of the most powerful until around levels 5-7, when spellcasters start to break the rules that normally apply. Then they fall into stride.



Tome of Battle is one way of solving the problem that melee has in 3.5.
The problem is that damage is all a melee character can do and that damage doesn't matter.
If your Fighter does fifty damage to an enemy Cleric, it doesn't make the slightest difference. He will still be able to Plane Shift you to the Positive Energy plane when his turn comes around.
That means 3.5 melee turns into a frantic all-or-nothing, where your character is either a caster or a two-handed charger, because nothing else has a prayer.
(If you don't have spells or the ability to kill the baddies in one round, they will still be there and they will still be able to Blasphemy/Baleful Polymorph/Dominate/Implode you into oblivion.)

Power Attacking for dear life is no longer required, nor are one-trick ponies.
Tome of Battle lets other fighting styles work.
You want to two-weapon fight? Take Tiger Claw.
You want to specialize in trips and throws? Take Setting Sun.
You want to go Sword and Board? Go Devoted Spirit or Diamond Mind.
ToB introduces status effects and alternate damage-dealing methods to the man-at-arms archetype.

Don't compare the Warblade to a Fighter. Doing so means you're missing the point. The Warblade is designed to be more powerful and more Versatile than the Fighter. The Fighter is not powerful or versatile enough to play in the same game as the Druid or the Cleric. The Warblade is. (Well, it's closer anyway.)

The Warblade is more likely than the Fighter to make saves and to resist various spells and effects, because all characters are able to resist those spells and effects in the game the Warblade is designed to play: casters have spell resistance and Resurgence and counterspell and Heal. Just because the Fighter is comparatively defenseless doesn't mean he should be.



...And monsters and other characters are perfectly able to avoid the Warblade's attacks. They're able to avoid them in the same ways they're able to resist any other melee character's attacks: boost AC, manipulate the battlefield, hurt the Warblade first, etc.




The main draw to ToB is that it gives non-magical fighters the option to do something in combat beside roll attacks mindlessly again and again. This takes the pressure off DMs to provide fighters with magic gear and exploitable environmental features fight after fight after fight.

The main fault with ToB is actually one of its strengths: ToB characters optiize themselves. This is fantastic in games where spellcasters go wild with summons and non-damage attacks, but it is detrimental to games where casters chuck fireballs and fighters two-weapon fight with bastard swords.

HunterOfJello
2010-03-04, 05:27 AM
I have a long post about this, but one quick question. What level is the warblade? He isn't supposed to have access to that Stance you mentioned until level 10 unless he used a feat to get it.

Incorrect
2010-03-04, 05:29 AM
Warblade is only a tier 3 class. Same as most of the party. They should be pretty even, power wise.

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

Remember to keep track of actions. Most strikes are Swift actions, and most counters are immediate actions, meaning that you cant counter a spell and then use a maneuvers on your next turn.

If you need to challenge the warblade, use intelligent enemies. Stack up on AC and miss chance. Attack from several directions, he cant be everywhere.

TaintedLight
2010-03-04, 05:32 AM
Fighters are horrible compared to Warblades. This is a pretty commonly held belief among D&D players I've talked to, but the way I usually run it to help balance it a bit is to consider fighters to be an adept class. That is, fighter levels don't count as half initiator levels. In addition, there is no limit to the number of times a fighter can take Martial Study. That allows the fighter to pretend he's an adept OR build something else entirely with all those juicy bonus feats.

The thing that bothers me more than anything else in ToB is the warblade's ability to swap out all his single weapon focused feats (Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Supremacy) for anything else. That means he takes Exotic Weapon Proficiency (beanbag) and the next morning, he's a master of the wierdest, most obscure weapon you can find in some oft-discarded splatbook. It's not that it's overpowered per se; on any given day his bonus is just a bit higher. It's that he makes the fighter look like a total chump by doing as well as the fighter does with his weapon of choice that he's studied his whole life, but the warblade doesn't even have to have ever heard of the damn thing before, he's just as good at using it.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-04, 05:36 AM
Warblade is only a tier 3 class. Same as most of the party. They should be pretty even, power wise.


Remember to keep track of actions. Most strikes are Swift actions, and most counters are immediate actions, meaning that you cant counter a spell and then use a maneuvers on your next turn.

If you need to challenge the warblade, use intelligent enemies. Stack up on AC and miss chance. Attack from several directions, he cant be everywhere.

Most strikes are standard actions. Most boosts are swift actions. Changing stances is a swift action. Recovering maneuvers after a normal attack or a standard action to flourish is a swift action.

obnoxious
sig

Runestar
2010-03-04, 05:43 AM
The warblade exists to make melee fun again, by giving you more options in combat. No longer are you limited to just move+attack or 5-ft+full attack.

Granted, there are some discrepancies (such as iron heart surge and white raven tactics), but I don't think you should condemn ToB just because of a few poorly designed material.:smallsmile:

HunterOfJello
2010-03-04, 05:44 AM
*k, here we go*



The Tome of Battle Classes were each created to take hybrid builds that people had played previously and add spell like abilities to them with the intention of creating melee classes that could prove useful to a party from level 1 all the way to 20 and keep up with the spellcasting classes.

That's the real key part of each of the Marital Adepts. Melee characters in 3.5e are pathetically weak and can border on being useless to a high level party that includes even one wizard, cleric, or druid. Why even have a Barbarian around when your Druid can turn into a Dire Bear 10 times a day, your wizard can summon 2 Balor Demons to do his bidding and the Cleric can call for divine help directly from his deity whenever he feels squeemish?

Marital Adepts are an apology to all of the players who have stuck it out with melee characters and really deserved a break at the end of a long long run of being ignored.


~~

Now some warblade info:

The Warblade is a based on the Fighter/Barbarian hybrid that many people have played in 3.5e. That is, a melee fighter with a large number of HD, light or medium armor, and very high damage output. The character can stay in the middle of combat because it has decent armor (not full plate and a tower shield, but still light/medium armor and a large shiled) and lots of hit points.

That is the essence of the Warblade and the essence of the Fighter/Barbarian character concept.


~~~

Now, at early levels (1-4) it's obvious that the Warblade is going to outpace many of the other character's in your party simply because the Marital Adepts are amazing at those levels. However, each of the characters in your party should be able to catch up.

The Favored Soul is a Tier 2 class and the Warblade, Dread Necromancer, Duskblade and Beguiler are each Tier 3 classes. This means that every class involved is great at the role they're supposed to fill in the group, and also have the ability to fulfill other roles successfully.

If each of the players in your group take the right feats they're each going to become powerful and very useful characters. The Duskblade and Warblade are obviously going to outdamage the rest in melee damage, but if your party works well together you should be able to do amazing things.

~~~~



Basic Pros and Cons:


Pros:
Full BAB
d12
Light/Medium Armor, Shields
4 + Int Skill Points
A handful of decently useful feats (although nothing spectacular)

and

Awesome Spell-like abilities called Maneuvers that replicate different feats or improve the Warblade's Fighting Capabilities
Great recovery mechanic for their maneuvers (hit something)


Cons:
No Full Plate or Tower Shield Proficiency
2 Weak Saves (Ref and Will)
Slightly MAD since they need STR and CON but benefit well from DEX and INT
Out of all the ToB classes the Warblade gets the fewest Maneuvers Known, Maneuvers Readied and Stances Known



~


Now as far as your complaints about the Warblade's Counter Maneuvers (the ones that can replace saves or AC). The Warblade does have access to the Diamond Mind school which has excellent Counter Maneuvers that can really save a Warblade when they're in a tight situation.

The downside of the Warblade's Counters is that each one takes up a Maneuver Known and if you want to be completely safe all the time, then you need to have those Maneuvers Readied also. Like I said before, the Warblade only gets 4 Maneuvers Readied until level 10. That means that if a Warblade wants to stay careful and have one of each counter for each of his saves, he has to use up 3 Maneuvers Known (out of up to 8 at level 9) and 3 Maneuvers Readied (out of up to 4 at level 9).

So while the Counters may look glorious and extremely useful, they're abilities that will most likely be ignored most of the time and not even ready when the character needs it, because giving up one of your 4 Maneuvers Readied for a Counter you may or may not need gets old really fast.






*edit*


One last thing: Check out your player's character sheet and make sure he's choosing his maneuver's properly. Maneuvers work like Spells in that you have to be Warblade 3 before you can pick up a level 2 maneuver. There's information about how the selection process works on page 39 of the ToB.

If your player is choosing his maneuvers by thinking he gets lvl 2 maneuvers at Warblade 2 and level 5 maneuvers at Warblade 5, then he's definitely going to highly overpower everyone in your party.

Also like I mentioned in the other post, check if he took the Martial Stance feat at level 6 or above. If he's a lower level than 10 then he would have to spend a feat to get Thicket of Blades (the stance that lets you attack on 5ft steps).

ChakraChanter
2010-03-04, 05:48 AM
Why did you all obliviously avoid the part where I expressed sympathy for the fighter, and I even said that Meleers need/deserve good things too! Why do you all perpetuate on the fact that I don't see that:smallannoyed:

We were @lvl 15.

But the issue is that anyone that played a spellcaster was well aware if theu were commiting cheese. The Warblade says," Well because I'm not as strong as they are, I'll do everything I can to explode over the enemy."

Furthermore, @LV 20 Wizard/Sorc with 36 in their casting stat with SF and GSF on a 9th lvl spell would be a DC:34. A Lvl 20 Warblade with 30 Con and 23 ranks in Concentration can make that on a 1. I just don't see the fairness, although you coud continue to argue that the wizard will just throw the same spell at him, (but that would entail Metagaming from the DM, along with DM fiat) but logically since it failed the first time, why would a someone try the same thing again?

Edit: I can't stress it enough that, in a matter of life and death, you will come prepared, so it is at no expense to the player, especially if needed, he can replenish and rearrange his manuevers for the encounter iirc.

Irreverent Fool
2010-03-04, 05:53 AM
Why did you all obliviously avoid the part where I expressed sympathy for the fighter, and I even said that Meleers need/deserve good things too! Why do you all perpetuate on the fact that I don't see that:smallannoyed:

We were @lvl 15.

But the issue is that anyone that played a spellcaster was well aware if theu were commiting cheese. The Warblade says," Well because I'm not as strong as they are, I'll do everything I can to explode over the enemy."

Furthermore, @LV 20 Wizard/Sorc with 36 in their casting stat with SF and GSF on a 9th lvl spell would be a DC:34. A Lvl 20 Warblade with 30 Con and 23 ranks in Concentration can make that on a 1. I just don't see the fairness, although you coud continue to argue that the wizard will just throw the same spell at him, (but that would entail Metagaming from the DM, along with DM fiat) but logically since it failed the first time, why would a someone try the same thing again?

Edit: I can't stress it enough that, in a matter of life and death, you will come prepared, so it is at no expense to the player, especially if needed, he can replenish and rearrange his manuevers for the encounter iirc.

The warblade can only use that counter every other round.

obnoxious
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ChakraChanter
2010-03-04, 05:56 AM
The warblade exists to make melee fun again, by giving you more options in combat. No longer are you limited to just move+attack or 5-ft+full attack.

Granted, there are some discrepancies (such as iron heart surge and white raven tactics), but I don't think you should condemn ToB just because of a few poorly designed material.:smallsmile:

I never comdemned it. I clearly stated that meleers deserve nice things too, and my issue is with the Warblade (which is being resolved), not ToB, so please correct rectify your claim.

HunterOfJello
2010-03-04, 05:56 AM
It's also worth noting that all of the classes involved in your group are hybrid or spinoff classes that were intended to mix character concepts and create flavored classes. Only the warblade was intended for the purpose of making a stronger character than its original, the rest of these classes were intended to be weaker, but add a level of fun and roleplaying into the mix.


The Duskblade is the traditional Fighter/Wizard Gish. The Beguiler is the Rogue/Wizard Illusionist hybrid. The Dread Necromancer is a spin-off on Necromancer Wizards/Clerics that was given extra flavor to be fun.

Each of these three classes was designed to be weaker than a Wizard and lack all of the wizard's power and versatility while still being fun.

The Favored Soul was just a bad attempt at making a Sorcerer-type Cleric that ended up being worse than a normal cleric in every single way.

kamikasei
2010-03-04, 05:56 AM
Why did you all obliviously avoid the part where I expressed sympathy for the fighter, and I even said that Meleers need/deserve good things too! Why do you all perpetuate on the fact that I don't see that:smallannoyed:

Because you seem to be complaining that the Warblade is more powerful than the Fighter even while you acknowledge that the Fighter is too weak.


But the issue is that anyone that played a spellcaster was well aware if theu were commiting cheese. The Warblade says," Well because I'm not as strong as they are, I'll do everything I can to explode over the enemy."

Then your problem is with the player and the party balance, not with the Warblade class.


A Lvl 20 Warblade with 30 Con...

...is not really a reasonable comparison for a caster with their casting stat maxed out. You know, if a character wants to pump their Con that high, I'm pretty okay with letting them auto-save at the cost of an immediate action (i.e. once per round).


I never comdemned it. I clearly stated that meleers deserve nice things too, and my issue is with the Warblade (which is being resolved), not ToB, so please correct rectify your claim.

So what do you find objectionable about the Warblade that you don't about the Crusader or Swordsage?

Math_Mage
2010-03-04, 05:56 AM
With the number of no-save spells available to a wizard of that level, one wonders why the Warblade thinks those maneuvers will save him...

ChakraChanter
2010-03-04, 05:57 AM
The warblade can only use that counter every other round.

obnoxious
sig

Did you purposefully ignore what I stated?:smalleek:

ChakraChanter
2010-03-04, 05:59 AM
With the number of no-save spells available to a wizard of that level, one wonders why the Warblade thinks those maneuvers will save him...

Is that including cheese or non-cheese? If non-cheese, could you state the spells, or just provide a single example?

lord_khaine
2010-03-04, 05:59 AM
Furthermore, @LV 20 Wizard/Sorc with 36 in their casting stat with SF and GSF on a 9th lvl spell would be a DC:34. A Lvl 20 Warblade with 30 Con and 23 ranks in Concentration can make that on a 1. I just don't see the fairness, although you coud continue to argue that the wizard will just throw the same spell at him, (but that would entail Metagaming from the DM, along with DM fiat) but logically since it failed the first time, why would a someone try the same thing again?
__________________


Why wouldnt they? they know there is allways at least a very small
chance (5%), that someone will resist a spell, so when joe buckethead fighter makes his dc 40 will save, then the most logical explanation is actualy that it was just pure luck, and that he will not make the next one.

Also, as someone else have allready mentioned, have you seen how few maneuvers the warblade can normaly prepare? it takes a huge chunk out of them to guard all 3 saves, and it still doesnt help against those nasty spells without a save, like enervation.

edit.


Is that including cheese or non-cheese? If non-cheese, could you state the spells, or just provide a single example?

Just did that, enervation, and ill add one more, Evards tentacles.

Cicciograna
2010-03-04, 06:03 AM
With the number of no-save spells available to a wizard of that level, one wonders why the Warblade thinks those maneuvers will save him...

This. At those levels, ST become almost irrelevant, as the no-save spells tend to rule the game.
BTW assuming that the casters resort to spells that grant ST, as many have pointed out to have all of his three saves covered the Warblade has to use 3 out of 7 maneuvers...and hope that the following spell of the caster does not target the same ST he previously made with a roll of 1.

Runestar
2010-03-04, 06:04 AM
Furthermore, @LV 20 Wizard/Sorc with 36 in their casting stat with SF and GSF on a 9th lvl spell would be a DC:34. A Lvl 20 Warblade with 30 Con and 23 ranks in Concentration can make that on a 1.

The alternative is that a run of the mill fighter can pretty much look forward to auto-failing any will-save attack which comes his way. He can expect to either be taken out of combat altogether (if he is lucky) or be turned against his party (if unlucky).

Your warblade at least has the opportunity to actually stay in the game and contribute meaningfully.


I just don't see the fairness, although you coud continue to argue that the wizard will just throw the same spell at him, (but that would entail Metagaming from the DM, along with DM fiat) but logically since it failed the first time, why would a someone try the same thing again?

A commoner rolls a natural 20 on his will save and manages to avoid being charmed by a balor. Does this mean the balor should never try charming him ever again?

You are the DM, make something up. Or use AoE effects, which are far less discriminate in who they target (so you won't seem like you are unfairly targeting the warblade over other PCs, since everyone is getting hosed). :smalltongue:

Dallas-Dakota
2010-03-04, 06:10 AM
:smallsigh:

Please don't make titles like this? It frustrates me to no end.


I mis-read it as The Warblade Squirrel and now I want that to exist.:tongue:

Math_Mage
2010-03-04, 06:11 AM
Is that including cheese or non-cheese? If non-cheese, could you state the spells, or just provide a single example?

I don't know if Enervation is cheese or not, but Lord_Khaine gives it. Same goes for the ordinary Forcecage + Cloudkill combo, but again I don't know what we're qualifying as cheese around here. I'm not all that familiar with the spell lists, either.

More to the point, all this does is allow the Warblade to stay alive--and for one turn, at that. You're condemning him as overpowered because the wizard can't kill him in one try. That's a little unfair, no?

ChakraChanter
2010-03-04, 06:15 AM
(1)Then your problem is with the player and the party balance, not with the Warblade class.
(2)Because you seem to be complaining that the Warblade is more powerful than the Fighter even while you acknowledge that the Fighter is too weak.

(3)...is not really a reasonable comparison for a caster with their casting stat maxed out. You know, if a character wants to pump their Con that high, I'm pretty okay with letting them auto-save at the cost of an immediate action (i.e. once per round).

(4) So what do you find objectionable about the Warblade that you don't about the Crusader or Swordsage?
1. I disagree. Because actual players know, through the tier system, that Warblades are weaker than say a wizard, they will do much to get as close as possible (usually through the means of combat).

2. I'm certainly not complaining. I just need to accept that ToB is a rework (or however you guys may call it) of melee characters. If it wasn't, I would simply say that it doesn't make sense that the fighter as fewer HD than the Warblade.

3. ALmost all of my PCs, at least the ones that enter direct combat, usually have 30 Con, if not at least 26 Con (So that would go down to 23 ranks + 8 + at least 1 so they can make a DC:32). I'm not sure if I understand by what you mean by, "is not really a reasonable comparison for a caster with their casting stat maxed out"

4. Well my lack of knowledge of the other classes can't provide me with a good answer. I have a hard time with the replenish ability, and the manuevers/stances. (Although I'm sure you or someone else will provide clarification as to why the replenish is needed)

ChakraChanter
2010-03-04, 06:16 AM
:smallsigh:

Please don't make titles like this? It frustrates me to no end.


I mis-read it as The Warblade Squirrel and now I want that to exist.:tongue:

No offense, but your sarcasm is unneeded


I don't know if Enervation is cheese or not, but Lord_Khaine gives it. Same goes for the ordinary Forcecage + Cloudkill combo, but again I don't know what we're qualifying as cheese around here. I'm not all that familiar with the spell lists, either.

More to the point, all this does is allow the Warblade to stay alive--and for one turn, at that. You're condemning him as overpowered because the wizard can't kill him in one try. That's a little unfair, no?

While the idea is unfair, I explain why that's not the case because it would require Metagaming on the DM's part or fiat

Furthermore, @LV 20 Wizard/Sorc with 36 in their casting stat with SF and GSF on a 9th lvl spell would be a DC:34. A Lvl 20 Warblade with 30 Con and 23 ranks in Concentration can make that on a 1. I just don't see the fairness, although you coud continue to argue that the wizard will just throw the same spell at him, (but that would entail Metagaming from the DM, along with DM fiat) but logically since it failed the first time, why would a someone try the same thing again?

Edit: I can't stress it enough that, in a matter of life and death, you will come prepared, so it is at no expense to the player, especially if needed, he can replenish and rearrange his manuevers for the encounter iirc.

TaintedLight
2010-03-04, 06:18 AM
The warblade is good at what he does. REALLY good at it. But, consider for a moment that that's pretty much all he does. Is your warblade adept at subtle political machinations? Can he sneak past a garrison of hostile soldiers to rescue a captive when brute force is not an option? Can he disguise himself to gain entry to an exclusive club where a local crime boss is holding a meeting? Yes, he gets diplomacy. Consider the fluff of warblades for a moment, too. They tend to be arrogant about how amazing they are. That gets really old to a lot of NPCs really fast. Someday, somebody more badass than he won't want to put up with his high opinion of himself anymore.

People have this weird misconception that a class is only good for what it can do once initiative has been rolled. There is so much more you can do to challenge a party than throw monsters and lava and traps at them. Make muscle not-an-option by hopelessly outnumbering the PCs or putting inappropriately high CR enemies in their way. Put them in an anti-magic zone so the wizard can't magic his way out of everything. Lock them up. Disarm them. Anything.

You can make any class in the game useless if you try hard enough. The trick is not to go that far, but rather to make sure that everyone can contribute meaningfully in most situations. The warblade is going to whack anything he comes across really well, but he won't necessarily be able to fast-talk it or outthink its strategy.

ChakraChanter
2010-03-04, 06:24 AM
(1)Then your problem is with the player and the party balance, not with the Warblade class.
(2)Because you seem to be complaining that the Warblade is more powerful than the Fighter even while you acknowledge that the Fighter is too weak.

(3)...is not really a reasonable comparison for a caster with their casting stat maxed out. You know, if a character wants to pump their Con that high, I'm pretty okay with letting them auto-save at the cost of an immediate action (i.e. once per round).

(4) So what do you find objectionable about the Warblade that you don't about the Crusader or Swordsage?
1. I disagree. Because actual players know, through the tier system, that Warblades are weaker than say a wizard, they will do much to get as close as possible (usually through the means of combat).

2. I'm certainly not complaining. I just need to accept that ToB is a rework (or however you guys may call it) of melee characters. If it wasn't, I would simply say that it doesn't make sense that the fighter as fewer HD than the Warblade.

3. ALmost all of my PCs, at least the ones that enter direct combat, usually have 30 Con, if not at least 26 Con (So that would go down to 23 ranks + 8 + at least 1 so they can make a DC:32). I'm not sure if I understand by what you mean by, "is not really a reasonable comparison for a caster with their casting stat maxed out"


:smallsigh:

Please don't make titles like this? It frustrates me to no end.


I mis-read it as The Warblade Squirrel and now I want that to exist.:tongue:

No offense, but your sarcasm is unneeded


I don't know if Enervation is cheese or not, but Lord_Khaine gives it. Same goes for the ordinary Forcecage + Cloudkill combo, but again I don't know what we're qualifying as cheese around here. I'm not all that familiar with the spell lists, either.

More to the point, all this does is allow the Warblade to stay alive--and for one turn, at that. You're condemning him as overpowered because the wizard can't kill him in one try. That's a little unfair, no?

While the idea is unfair, I explain why that's not the case because it would require Metagaming on the DM's part or fiat

Furthermore, @LV 20 Wizard/Sorc with 36 in their casting stat with SF and GSF on a 9th lvl spell would be a DC:34. A Lvl 20 Warblade with 30 Con and 23 ranks in Concentration can make that on a 1. I just don't see the fairness, although you coud continue to argue that the wizard will just throw the same spell at him, (but that would entail Metagaming from the DM, along with DM fiat) but logically since it failed the first time, why would a someone try the same thing again?

Edit: I can't stress it enough that, in a matter of life and death, you will come prepared, so it is at no expense to the player, especially if needed, he can replenish and rearrange his manuevers for the encounter iirc.
4. Well my lack of knowledge of the other classes can't provide me with a good answer. I have a hard time with the replenish ability, and the manuevers/stances. (Although I'm sure you or someone else will provide clarification as to why the replenish is needed)

Edit: My PCs and I are having a debate over Enervation, whether beig cheese or not.

As far as the 5% rule goes, I disagree with your manner. So if I cast a lightning spell at someone and they somehow display to me that it had no affect on them, I would shoot them again with more lightning?

Math_Mage
2010-03-04, 06:24 AM
1. I disagree. Because actual players know, through the tier system, that Warblades are weaker than say a wizard, they will do much to get as close as possible (usually through the means of combat).

Except that the rest of your party is also Tier 2-3, so the warblade can't use the excuse that he's just trying to catch up with the tier system.


2. I'm certainly not complaining. I just need to accept that ToB is a rework (or however you guys may call it) of melee characters. If it wasn't, I would simply say that it doesn't make sense that the fighter as fewer HD than the Warblade.

If you're not complaining, you're doing a darn good impression of it ("Me personally, I hate it. I think it's rediculously over-powered")...


3. ALmost all of my PCs, at least the ones that enter direct combat, usually have 30 Con, if not at least 26 Con (So that would go down to 23 ranks + 8 + at least 1 so they can make a DC:32). I'm not sure if I understand by what you mean by, "is not really a reasonable comparison for a caster with their casting stat maxed out"

My interpretation of his comment: Con is a secondary stat for melee classes. The casting stat is the primary one for casting classes. Finding a wizard with 30 Int (or a Warblade with 30 Str) will hence be more common than finding a melee character with 30 Con.

Eldan
2010-03-04, 06:24 AM
Probably the easiest way for a wizard to kill the Warblade at these levels would be stuff that requires only a touch attack to hit, or area effects which just kill you. A good example is forcecage: if it hits you, you are out of the fight if you can't teleport or something like it. Which means that a normal fighter, if he doesn't have the right equipment, is dead. An initiator could have a shadow hand maneuver to get out.

The save maneuvers are less overpowered than you might think: yes, at appropriate levels, the warblade can most likely make his save. However, without spending actions on refreshing, he can do this once. If he wants to cover all three saves, he has to use up three of his readied maneuvers, giving him significantly less combat versatility.

Now, as others have said: the problem seems to be party balance. All the classes in the party are at approximately the same tier. However, tiers were mostly made for optimized characters: if the Beguiler readies only spells which are fun to use but not too strong and has never heard of overpowered feat combo #3012, he will do less well in combat compared to a Warblade who just has to take a standard fighter feats and choose his maneuvers from a small list to be good. Same goes for the other classes: the divine ones especially can range a lot in power depending on how well they know their spell lists, as they can be huge. If the favoured soul prepares heal spells, he will, of course, not be able to curbstomp a demon, as he could if he had long time buffs and save-or-sucks.

So yes, I can easily believe that the Warblade is a strong character. I had the same situation in one of my last games, which was just after the ToB came out. The Party? A human rogue/barbarian with high dexterity, a half-orc druid who used his wildshape (at around level 10) mostly to change form into small birds for scouting and the occasional cat or fish. I haven't seen him use it for combat once.
My character was an Iron Heart/Tiger Claw warblade with a two-handed axe. I didn't spend much effort on optimizing. However, the DM wasn't very experienced, and made simple encounters "so everyone could have some fun fighting". We fought some kind of close combat fey monster after summoning it accidentally, and I obliterated it in two hits. And it went on like that.


Basically, what I want to say is this: at casual levels of optimization or with inexperienced players, the Warblade can easily become very strong in comparison.

AslanCross
2010-03-04, 06:24 AM
1. Don't forget the warblade's damage doesn't scale up with Initiator Level like Arcane casters. Though I suppose that doesn't say much. It should put things into perspective, though.

2. Maneuvers can miss, you know. I've seen them miss with surprising frequency.

3. Whenever the warblade in my campaign kills things, she typically does so not because her maneuvers are strong or because she can keep doing them over and over---it's because the party cleric buffs her.

4. While the Diamond Mind counters do make really good defenses, it still is possible to fail the saves. It has happened to me. :P

5. Btw, the stance you're referring to, Thicket of Blades, is NOT a Warblade stance. It's from the Devoted Spirit school.

Runestar
2010-03-04, 06:30 AM
It seems that your gripe with the warblade seems to stem from 2 key areas - being able to substitute saves with concentration checks, and maneuvers such as diamond blade nightmare which clearly seem superior to the full-attack action (move and still full-attack?!? Yes, please!).

For the latter, I would argue this is necessary to keep melee damage relevant at higher lvs. Fighters (and by extension any other melee class) are heavily dependent on being able to full-attack for the bulk of their damage output. Anytime the enemy is able to deny them that (eg: moving, tripping, slow effect), their effectiveness drops dramatically. 2d6+30 (averaging 37 damage before dr) just doesn't cut it at lv15.

Contrast this with the wizard, who in any given round, is able to fire off an attack spell, a quickened spell, move and still cast an immediate action spell during his opponent's turn, such as activating abrupt jaunt.

Doesn't seem to stellar now, does it?

ChakraChanter
2010-03-04, 06:31 AM
My interpretation of his comment: Con is a secondary stat for melee classes. The casting stat is the primary one for casting classes. Finding a wizard with 30 Int (or a Warblade with 30 Str) will hence be more common than finding a melee character with 30 Con.

Uh, at level 20, I all of the Melee PCs generally have a Str 36 and Con 30.


It seems that your gripe with the warblade seems to stem from 2 key areas - being able to substitute saves with concentration checks, and maneuvers such as diamond blade nightmare which clearly seem superior to the full-attack action (move and still full-attack?!? Yes, please!).

For the latter, I would argue this is necessary to keep melee damage relevant at higher lvs. Fighters (and by extension any other melee class) are heavily dependent on being able to full-attack for the bulk of their damage output. Anytime the enemy is able to deny them that (eg: moving, tripping, slow effect), their effectiveness drops dramatically.

Contrast this with the wizard, who in any given round, is able to fire off an attack spell, a quickened spell, move and still cast an immediate action spell during his opponent's turn, such as activating abrupt jaunt.

Doesn't seem to stellar now, does it?

But I know you're well aware of the brokenness of Abrupt Jaunt and I think you're referring to a spell called Arcane Spellsurge of something of the sort? Well, it hasn't been used from what I've experienced

TaintedLight
2010-03-04, 06:31 AM
While the idea is unfair, I explain why that's not the case because it would require Metagaming on the DM's part or fiat

Whoa, there. That's your job and your prerogative. If you feel that something has to be done to stop an imbalance from ruining your game, by golly you do it. Don't think for a minute that the DM can really cheat. You can do things that are underhanded, and if you do it too often and screw the players too much they will start to get upset, but you are justified in making changes on the fly that will save your game.

kamikasei
2010-03-04, 06:31 AM
1. I disagree. Because actual players know, through the tier system, that Warblades are weaker than say a wizard, they will do much to get as close as possible (usually through the means of combat).

Well, no. That doesn't hold. Actual players know that they're playing with other actual people at an actual table and might pitch the degree of optimization they employ to match the power level at that table.

If you have one player building and playing a character so as to overshadow the others, that is a player/DM/group problem, not a problem with the class. (It's a problem when a class automatically overshadows most others or vice versa, of course.)


2. I'm certainly not complaining. I just need to accept that ToB is a rework (or however you guys may call it) of melee characters. If it wasn't, I would simply say that it doesn't make sense that the fighter as fewer HD than the Warblade.

Among the list of problems you perceive with the Warblade, from the OP, is the fact that it has more HP and skill points than the Fighter. What is that if not a complaint that the class is better than another which you acknowledge isn't good enough?


3. ALmost all of my PCs, at least the ones that enter direct combat, usually have 30 Con, if not at least 26 Con (So that would go down to 23 ranks + 8 + at least 1 so they can make a DC:32). I'm not sure if I understand by what you mean by, "is not really a reasonable comparison for a caster with their casting stat maxed out"

I mean that a caster can be expected to put a lot of resources towards boosting their primary casting stat: put their highest score in to it, use their level-up bonuses, tomes, enhancement items etc. Few if any classes get a comparable benefit from Con to justify making the same investment. If 30 Con is a common stat at your table then this seems like a peculiarity of your play style that may make ToB less suitable for your group than it is generally.


4. Well my lack of knowledge of the other classes can't provide me with a good answer. I have a hard time with the replenish ability, and the manuevers/stances. (Although I'm sure you or someone else will provide clarification as to why the replenish is needed)

You say your problem is with the Warblade and not with ToB, but apparently the Warblade is all you know of from the book. Any objections you've raised would apply about as well to either of the other classes, so it seems like you do have a problem with ToB in general, based on your comments here.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-04, 06:32 AM
Don't think in the way "Warblade OR Fighter". I did once and I was wrong.

Think in the way "Warblade AND Fighter" and see what happens.

Math_Mage
2010-03-04, 06:33 AM
While the idea is unfair, I explain why that's not the case because it would require Metagaming on the DM's part or fiat

Furthermore, @LV 20 Wizard/Sorc with 36 in their casting stat with SF and GSF on a 9th lvl spell would be a DC:34. A Lvl 20 Warblade with 30 Con and 23 ranks in Concentration can make that on a 1. I just don't see the fairness, although you coud continue to argue that the wizard will just throw the same spell at him, (but that would entail Metagaming from the DM, along with DM fiat) but logically since it failed the first time, why would a someone try the same thing again?

If anything, it makes it more likely the wizard will throw down an Enervation, Energy Drain, Black Tentacles, or other no-save spell the next time he looks at the Warblade. "Hmmm, that man over there seems prepared to resist my spells...well, what about something he can't resist? *evil chuckle*"


Edit: I can't stress it enough that, in a matter of life and death, you will come prepared, so it is at no expense to the player, especially if needed, he can replenish and rearrange his manuevers for the encounter iirc.

But preparing your 3 save maneuvers leaves you short on defenses against other things. Yeah, great that you can replenish and rearrange, but you're still very narrowly focused at any given time.

Runestar
2010-03-04, 06:36 AM
Uh, at level 20, I all of the Melee PCs generally have a Str 36 and Con 30

How? Tomes are freaking expensive. A high lv PC can barely afford one +5, and certainly cannot support 2. I would expect con to typically hover at around 20 (base14, +6enhancement, possibly more if you are a dwarf and/or dragonborn). Nor would I expect the wizard to wish everyone to +5...

kamikasei
2010-03-04, 06:36 AM
Are you having problems with your connection or something? The weird double-posts and spliced-together posts are confusing.


As far as the 5% rule goes, I disagree with your manner. So if I cast a lightning spell at someone and they somehow display to me that it had no affect on them, I would shoot them again with more lightning?

Making a save against a spell does not mean they can "display to you that it had no effect on them". If you blast someone with a lightning bolt and they make their reflex save then you can see that they evaded the damage. You won't be left with the impression that they're immune to electricity.


Uh, at level 20, I all of the Melee PCs generally have a Str 36 and Con 30

...How?

Assuming they start with an 18 in each and pick up +6 items for each... you're looking at a total of +12 to Str and +6 to Con from a combination of racial, inherent, and level-up bonuses. You could maybe do that if you splurge on a +5 tome for Str and a +4 for Con... after taking a race with +2 racial to both... I'm gonna go ahead and say that this is atypical.

TaintedLight
2010-03-04, 06:37 AM
Y'know, you could always have the wizard cast Ironguard and laugh when that flashy manuever passes right through him.

Seriously, there are so many better ways to kill somebody than save or suck. Ever tried a ray attack on a creature with a low touch AC? It ends badly. A polar ray to the brains leaves most melee types hurting quite a bit.

AslanCross
2010-03-04, 06:46 AM
Don't think in the way "Warblade OR Fighter". I did once and I was wrong.

Think in the way "Warblade AND Fighter" and see what happens.

+1. The two were MEANT to multiclass together.

ChakraChanter
2010-03-04, 06:47 AM
Actually, I have to backtrack. The Fighter/Warblade generally has a Str 30(+/- 4) and Con 30 (+/- 4). THe Barbarian generally has a STR 36 and CON 30.

We use the point-buy system.

Tier 1: 24 points
Tier 2: 28 points
Tier 3: 32 points; etc.

My buddies kept arguing that to allow your stats to be based of luck is ridiculous, even while acknowledging that the entire game is essentially luck (please don't argue this point-buy system thingy:smalleek:)

Whoa, there. That's your job and your prerogative. If you feel that something has to be done to stop an imbalance from ruining your game, by golly you do it. Don't think for a minute that the DM can really cheat. You can do things that are underhanded, and if you do it too often and screw the players too much they will start to get upset, but you are justified in making changes on the fly that will save your game.

Yeah I'm aware of such. My PCs just know me so well that they can tell when I "cheat"

Warbladess are combat specialists. They're SUPPOSED to be really good at it. It's not like they're going to be ending encounters with a single ability in a single round like even level 1 wizards can.

I stated that specification because some people will state how poorly Warblades work outside of combat. I just wanted to void that argument.

Shpadoinkle
2010-03-04, 06:48 AM
You clearly left out the part where I acknowledge "..the poor fighter", providing my sympathy.:smallconfused:

Edit: Okay, well while I acknowledge how the Tier system works, I would like to be more specific. In speaking how purely combat efficient the class is

Warbladess are combat specialists. They're SUPPOSED to be really good at it. It's not like they're going to be ending encounters with a single ability in a single round like even level 1 wizards can.

TaintedLight
2010-03-04, 06:49 AM
Actually, I have to backtrack. The Fighter/Warblade generally has a Str 30(+/- 4) and Con 30 (+/- 4). THe Barbarian generally has a STR 36 and CON 30.

We use the point-buy system.

Tier 1: 24 points
Tier 2: 28 points
Tier 3: 32 points; etc.

My buddies kept arguing that to allow your stats to be based of luck is ridiculous, even while acknowledging that the entire game is essentially luck (please don't argue this point-buy system thingy:smalleek:)

I rather like point-buy. While it does allow a munchkin-y player to create ideal stats, it ensures that everyone has the same resources to work with. Sure, you can have that 18 at level 1, but it'll cost ya 16 of your points. Still, that's a preposterous number for STR and CON, especially if both are that high and even moreso if most of the melee'rs have them that high.

Math_Mage
2010-03-04, 06:50 AM
Uh, at level 20, I all of the Melee PCs generally have a Str 36 and Con 30.

I echo the bewilderment of Runestar and kamikasei. Those numbers may be possible, but they sure aren't expected.


But I know you're well aware of the brokenness of Abrupt Jaunt and I think you're referring to a spell called Arcane Spellsurge of something of the sort? Well, it hasn't been used from what I've experienced

No Spellsurge required. A wizard can cast a Quickened spell and a normal spell in the same round, and take a move action, without anything outside of the PHB. The immediate action may be non-Core, but it doesn't have to be Abrupt Jaunt cheese to be good.

Ashiel
2010-03-04, 06:50 AM
I don't know if Enervation is cheese or not, but Lord_Khaine gives it. Same goes for the ordinary Forcecage + Cloudkill combo, but again I don't know what we're qualifying as cheese around here. I'm not all that familiar with the spell lists, either.

More to the point, all this does is allow the Warblade to stay alive--and for one turn, at that. You're condemning him as overpowered because the wizard can't kill him in one try. That's a little unfair, no?

Very unfair I would say. Anyway, here is a list of other combat-breaking spells that offer little in the way of a save (either no-save or suck even with a save): Grease, Solid Fog, Waves of Fatigue, Waves of Exhaustion, Enervation, Energy Drain, Force-Cage (even if it doesn't kill the Warblade, he is now useless unless saved by a spell-caster), Cloudkill (you take a minimum of 1 point of Con damage each round, popular combo'd with Forcecage). Resilient Sphere (be inside one and the Warblade cannot harm you), Stinking Cloud, Ray of Enfeeblement, Black Tentacles, Wall of Force, Telekinesis, Sequester, Reverse Gravity, Power Word Stun, etc.

That's just the wizard spell list, and not including 9th level spells that can make the Warblade cry rivers.

As to your "Why would he save twice" bit, seriously, are your spell-casters really all that dense? Heck. If they started thinking something funny was going on, they could just pelt him with low-level spells to make him waste actions. With merely the Quicken Spell feat, there's nothing stopping said caster from throwing a quickened lesser spell such as Blindness/Deafness or even Chill Touch or Charm Person at the Warblade, who upon activating his counter to avoid the spell, proceeds to get obliterated by the other spell coming at him, to which he has no counters available. Even if he doesn't pop the counter on the low-level spells, he's still looking at a fairly high save DC. Assuming your Int 36 caster mentioned, with SP/GSP, you're looking at a whopping DC 26-27 which could be targeting his weak saves.


It seems to me to be the classic examples of melee can't have nice things; even when nice things means merely a hope or chance for survival or the ability to contribute to a fight. :smallconfused:

kamikasei
2010-03-04, 06:51 AM
Tier 3: 32 points; etc.

If you look at my earlier comment on this, that just means that the Warblade gets the two 18s I said he'd need, and has every other stat at 8. Making up two 30s is a more reasonable challenge than one 36 and a 30, but that's still a very lop-sided character.

Have you considered the possiblity that your group has an unusual play style?

Math_Mage
2010-03-04, 06:56 AM
Actually, I have to backtrack. The Fighter/Warblade generally has a Str 30(+/- 4) and Con 30 (+/- 4). THe Barbarian generally has a STR 36 and CON 30.

We use the point-buy system.

Tier 1: 24 points
Tier 2: 28 points
Tier 3: 32 points; etc.

My buddies kept arguing that to allow your stats to be based of luck is ridiculous, even while acknowledging that the entire game is essentially luck (please don't argue this point-buy system thingy:smalleek:)

That doesn't make me *less* confused. A 32-point buy gives 18 Con and 18 Str to start, *if* you dump all your other stats. This still makes 36 Str and 30 Con by level 20 fairly improbable. 30-30, a little better, but still unlikely.


I stated that specification because some people will state how poorly Warblades work outside of combat. I just wanted to void that argument.

But it's important. Most of your argument has been about the ability of the Warblade to *survive* combat, which doesn't necessarily make him overpowered; and the power of other classes, like the bard or rogue (or wizard), in areas other than direct combat, contributes quite a bit to their tier placement.

ChakraChanter
2010-03-04, 07:04 AM
Okay, they find a race that gives you +2 Str/Con, +6 item in each stat, 4 points in one stat, 1 in the other +3 tome.

To get the 36/30:

Earth Dwarf: Str 18 (+2 racial) +5 Tome + 5 Points +6 item , Con 18 (+2 racial) +4 Tome, +6 item. That's what they, the PCs, do. Edit: I need to clarify that this is mainly the barbs and fighters, not Warblades. (Looking at his character sheet, I see that he only has a Con 26)

Edit: I see that it does determine the Tier, I want to speak strictly on combat. Nothing else. If there was a tier system based solely on how well one performed in combat, that is what I want.

Please stop mentioning Abrupt Jaunt, I along with many other don't allow it.

TaintedLight
2010-03-04, 07:04 AM
Edit: Okay, well while I acknowledge how the Tier system works, I would like to be more specific. In speaking how purely combat efficient the class is

If it's combat efficiency that you're concerned about, look at a class that can break the action economy. Think about a sorcerer with the ACF that allows him to use metamagic sped-up like everyone else. Then have him cast Arcane Spellsurge and to to town. Now have him cast Time Stop to set up the field exactly the way he wants.

Your warblade, if he is single classed, gets one standard action and one move action every round, plus a swift and an immediate. That is, unless he has that one belt from MiC which I forget the name of. Even then, he has no hope of keeping up with the sheer volume of actions that the caster can perform every round because his uses are quite limited. Melee has the unfortunate quality of being easy to imagine and familiar to people who are immersed in the fantasy-fighting, swords-and-sorcery genre. Really epic warriors are still just hitting things, although they do it better than less epic warriors. Casters, on the other hand, get to reshape reality to suit their needs and whims.

Until you can figure out how warblades keep up with Time Stop, I'm not terribly impressed by 100 extra damage that will miss anyways due to a broken class feature like abrupt jaunt. On my turn, I fry you with spells you have no way to resist and laugh all the way to the bank.

TaintedLight
2010-03-04, 07:06 AM
Okay, they find a race that gives you +2 Str/Con, +6 item in each stat, 4 points in one stat, 1 in the other +3 tome.

To get the 36/30:

Earth Dwarf: Str 18 (+2 racial) +5 Tome + 5 Points +6 item , Con 18 (+2 racial) +4 Tome, +6 item. That's what they, the PCs, do.

Personally, I would never give the PCs tomes at that rate. A +5 tome is an item that should probably never show up more than once, MAYBE twice. Even then, be careful tossing massive boosts like this around.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-04, 07:12 AM
+1. The two were MEANT to multiclass together.

Barring what happens in gestalt. One of my players is doing this way currently (strange mix of Kinght, Fighter and Warblade) and the resulting PC is really awesome.

2xMachina
2010-03-04, 07:13 AM
... 2 +5 tomes? They're worth 137.5k each. Even at lvl 20, it's a huge chunk of your WBL (about 1/3).

You've got to be lvl 16 before it even fits into WBL.

And I'm not yet counting the +6 item's cost.

kamikasei
2010-03-04, 07:15 AM
So:

Your players feel the need to optimize a Warblade to try to keep up with Tier 1 classes, even though they're in a game with other Tier 3s who are not heavily optimizing.

They are strong in melee and save-based defences when they pump their Str and Con exceptionally high, apparently as part of this "compete with people who aren't there" approach.

And this is taken to be a problem with the Warblade class, and not with the expectations around the table?

The peculiarities of your group that are causing people to :smallconfused: aside, the most substantial criticism you've made of the class is, as others have pointed out, that it is capable of avoiding dying for a little while by hamstringing its ability to do anything else. That's really not all that impressive.*

If you're having a problem in your game, perhaps you should point out to the player of the Warblade that there are no wizards or druids around that he needs to work hard to keep up with, and that he can afford to relax a little and make a more balanced character who'll play well with the others actually present.

*Horrifying realization: the Warblade has been turned in to a poor man's Monk.

Ashiel
2010-03-04, 07:15 AM
That doesn't make me *less* confused. A 32-point buy gives 18 Con and 18 Str to start, *if* you dump all your other stats. This still makes 36 Str and 30 Con by level 20 fairly improbable. 30-30, a little better, but still unlikely.



But it's important. Most of your argument has been about the ability of the Warblade to *survive* combat, which doesn't necessarily make him overpowered; and the power of other classes, like the bard or rogue (or wizard), in areas other than direct combat, contributes quite a bit to their tier placement.

Firstly...have I ever told you that your Avatar was so awesome Math Mage? If not, then know that it makes me happy every time I see it; by radiance of sheer awesomeness. Anyway, back to the thread...

Assuming an 18 in both Con and Strength, +5 inherent bonuses to all stats due to Wish at the hands of the party wizard's Efreeti buddies, as well as +6 enhancement magic items, that pushes it to about 29 by my count; followed by a an additional 5 points to spread out from leveling; allowing the fighter to sport a 32, 32, with 1 point left over.

Then you can also throw in spells such as enlarge person, rage, or polymorph type effects. Also a Berserking weapon can push the strength and constitution higher, but this also prevents the wielder from controlling his/her actions effectively and also bars the use of a lot of skills and actions - including the ones that the counter-maneuvers rely on.

It's possible but highly unlikely. Doubly unlikely in games where the party's wizard cannot summon wish casting monsters to permanently buff the party's stats (I had a game that ran from level 1-25, and my party's wizard did this around the mid-high levels). I mean, it's legal, and I was ok with it; but I know most GMs would probably get agitated over it.

Even still; we're talking the ability to not get raped (in the sense of being overpowered with nothing you can do to resist - not in the traditional sexual violence sense) by opponents who are the same level as you and aren't even trying. For some reason, this ability to resist being rendered completely useless/dead is causing the OP to question a Warblade's balance issues - while spellcasters gain blanket immunities to melee AND large numbers of game spells and effects with a mere wave of the hand (death ward, mind blank, iron body, etherealness, spell turning, spell mantle, spell resistance, spell immunity). Seriously OP, what are you saying? :smalleek:

EDIT: I also don't think I've ever told you how awesome your Avatar is either Kamikasei. :smallsmile:

kamikasei
2010-03-04, 07:29 AM
EDIT: I also don't think I've ever told you how awesome your Avatar is either Kamikasei. :smallsmile:

S-stupid Ashiel, it's not like I'm using it for your benefit or anything! *pouts*

Math_Mage
2010-03-04, 07:31 AM
Okay, they find a race that gives you +2 Str/Con, +6 item in each stat, 4 points in one stat, 1 in the other +3 tome.

To get the 36/30:

Earth Dwarf: Str 18 (+2 racial) +5 Tome + 5 Points +6 item , Con 18 (+2 racial) +4 Tome, +6 item. That's what they, the PCs, do. Edit: I need to clarify that this is mainly the barbs and fighters, not Warblades. (Looking at his character sheet, I see that he only has a Con 26)

Okay, so you're dealing with melee PCs that are *extremely* optimized for melee, apparently in an attempt to "keep up" with a Tier 1 character that isn't in the party. You are also handing out extremely valuable items quite a bit more easily than is ordinary. And all the Warblade is getting out of this is the ability to survive spells until the wizard wises up? Surely there is more he contributes to the party than that.


Edit: I see that it does determine the Tier, I want to speak strictly on combat. Nothing else. If there was a tier system based solely on how well one performed in combat, that is what I want.

Well, okay, but there's a *lot* that happens in combat that is more than hitting things and making Fort saves. What happens when the Warblade gets grappled, for example?

Not to mention, your intense focus on immediate combat prowess is a little unbalancing--doesn't this character ever put his foot in his mouth in a social situation? I mean, from where I'm sitting, it sounds like this character is making an adequate contribution to a specific aspect of the campaign, and the parts you're complaining about have nothing to do with his ability to contribute, only his ability to survive. Unless you're still hung up on Thicket of Blades, of course.


Please stop mentioning Abrupt Jaunt, I along with many other don't allow it.

The last mention was to say that you don't *need* it to get a good immediate action and win the action economy game.


Firstly...have I ever told you that your Avatar was so awesome Math Mage? If not, then know that it makes me happy every time I see it; by radiance of sheer awesomeness.

Haha, thanks. I actually spent a semester not knowing who the heck she was, only that her appearance was exactly what I imagined for my first D&D character...finally got to search the image on TinEye and figure out it was Caster from Fate/Stay Night. Since I'd just finished the anime, this made me even happier with the pic. :smallbiggrin:

Ashiel
2010-03-04, 07:51 AM
S-stupid Ashiel, it's not like I'm using it for your benefit or anything! *pouts*

We can all dream, can't we? :smallredface:
EDIT: I'm also filled with the anime-urge burned into my brain to make a comment involving the word cute. :smalltongue:

OverdrivePrime
2010-03-04, 07:58 AM
...How?

Assuming they start with an 18 in each and pick up +6 items for each... you're looking at a total of +12 to Str and +6 to Con from a combination of racial, inherent, and level-up bonuses. You could maybe do that if you splurge on a +5 tome for Str and a +4 for Con... after taking a race with +2 racial to both... I'm gonna go ahead and say that this is atypical.

That's what's boggling my mind. I prefer to play warriors, and I've played dozens over the years, including a few warblades and crusaders. I've never played a single character with a Constitution above 22 at any level of play. I just can't afford to boost CON higher while still maximizing my strength score (which I can hopefully afford to get up around 30) and getting nice, sharp things to gut dragons with. I've never seen a character with two stats above 30 at my game table, and we tend toward moderately strong practical optimization.

edit: I see this has been addressed. I need to type faster! :smalleek:


The warblade is a great class. I love it, and it makes it fun to be in melee. If anyone in my games wants to play a fighter, I heartily encourage them to take a two level dip only and then go to warblade.

However, at level 15, that warblade should not be holding up against full spellcasters. The beguiler and favored soul should definitely be outshining him, unless your encounters consist strictly of one single powerful enemy at a time.

I've been DMing for 17 years now, and I strongly disagree with your perception of using the same type of spell twice against a character as "metagaming". Not so. A powerful spellcaster believes in the strength of his arcane might just as much as a warrior believes in the power of his sword.
When a fighter swings at another warrior and his sword skips off the opponent's armor, does the warrior give up on his favorite sword and pull out a war hammer? Unlikely. He swings again, maybe trying a different technique.

Spellcasters are the same. A level 15 mage knows in his heart that guys in armor who wave swords around have simple brains that are easy to control and slap around. If a warblade manages to use moment of perfect mind in round 1 to shrug off a Mass Hold Person spell, then maybe the next round the mage will hit him with a no-save spell like Maze, or even more fun, Irresistable Dance on round 2.

By level 15, spellcasters have so many options, it's ridiculous. If I'm running a game against a 15th level party, I'll often throw another party against them. A 13th level Wu Jen with a pair of troll berserkers as bodyguards and a Rakshasa Abjurant Champion as a consort would be fairly normal. Or maybe just a young adult red dragon and a dozen mid-level duregar including a couple clerics.

The warblade can only use moment of perfect mind against one spell in a round. If he's trying to soak multiple spells, he's pretty much boned. If he uses Moment of Perfect Mind against a lackey's hold person, he's pretty much guaranteed to fail against the BBEG's mass hold person or mass charm monster cast a few moments later that same round.


And that's just talking about mind-affecting spells. A caster who throws an empowered cone of cold at the party in round one is going to see that the warblade takes damage (unless somehow he has evasion) even though he used a maneuver. Great! Hit 'em again. Once he looks hurt, follow up with Power Word Stun or something like that. The warblades, as much as I love them, really shouldn't have a chance unless they're working in concert with their teammates.

Runestar
2010-03-04, 08:22 AM
A warblade has some defense against those no-save spells as well.

Iron heart surge should be able to shrug off a maze, while wall of blades potentially lets you deflect an irresistible dance (your attack roll should outclass the wizard's). Any one of those shadow-hand teleportation maneuvers (via martial study) can let you pop out of a forcecage.

If you want evasion, you can always MC into monk2 (which grants IUS, letting you qualify for master of 9 more easily).

At higher lvs, a warblade can afford to save twice, using diamond defense + any one of the save boosters.

Eldariel
2010-03-04, 08:25 AM
Iron heart surge should be able to shrug off a maze, while wall of blades potentially lets you deflect an irresistible dance (your attack roll should outclass the wizard's). Any one of those shadow-hand teleportation maneuvers (via martial study) can let you pop out of a forcecage.

They unfortunately require Line of Effect which solid Forcecage blocks. I make it a point to invest in an item that grants you a short range Greater Teleport few times per day, like Boots of Big Stepping. Those are what you need to get yer ass outta the cage.

And at the saves, you still need the Immediate Actions to pull it off. Though Stance of Alacrity helps a ton.

Runestar
2010-03-04, 08:38 AM
They unfortunately require Line of Effect which solid Forcecage blocks.

Oh bugger...:smallyuk:

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-04, 08:49 AM
They unfortunately require Line of Effect which solid Forcecage blocks. I make it a point to invest in an item that grants you a short range Greater Teleport few times per day, like Boots of Big Stepping. Those are what you need to get yer ass outta the cage.


And if anchored with magic (dimensional lock and the like), there is always a sort of pick from MIC made to break force walls (IIRC).

Eldariel
2010-03-04, 08:51 AM
And if anchored with magic (dimensional lock and the like), there is always a sort of pick from MIC made to break force walls (IIRC).

There's always Rod of Cancellation. Never leave home without one. They're pretty expensive tho so I wouldn't bother packing multiples. And actually, by certain silly readings, Torc of AMF could get you outta that jam.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-04, 09:00 AM
Why is the warblade player seriously optimizing when all of the players (cept favored soul) are tier 3? (and the favored soul probably isn't playing to the best of his ability. It quite easy to mess up a favored soul.) Are the other players experienced? It sounds like a classic case of non-optimizers seeing the tier system and saying "wizard is the most powerful? Awesome! I can't wait to destroy my enemies with spells like cone of cold, and phantasmal killer!"

Also, are you proposing the warblade be nerfed? I'm not quite understanding your point with all the CON debates going on here.

nyarlathotep
2010-03-04, 09:00 AM
Furthermore, @LV 20 Wizard/Sorc with 36 in their casting stat with SF and GSF on a 9th lvl spell would be a DC:34. A Lvl 20 Warblade with 30 Con and 23 ranks in Concentration can make that on a 1. I just don't see the fairness, although you coud continue to argue that the wizard will just throw the same spell at him, (but that would entail Metagaming from the DM, along with DM fiat) but logically since it failed the first time, why would a someone try the same thing again?


I don't see why the wizard wouldn't just us the spell over again. It's no different than someone making their save normally, and the wizard knows that there is a chance for those of exceptional ability to resist his spells anyways.

2xMachina
2010-03-04, 09:03 AM
It'll also be equivalent to a melee fighter giving up when he misses/roll low damage (DR).

"Oh ****! I can't possibly hurt it. Might as well be useless and do nothing"

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-04, 09:29 AM
It'll also be equivalent to a melee fighter giving up when he misses/roll low damage (DR).

"Oh ****! I can't possibly hurt it. Might as well be useless and do nothing"

Hell, from my reading this is the reason the OP is complaining: he can't make the Warblade feel useless.





WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT TIER 3 MEANS...

Ashiel
2010-03-04, 09:45 AM
Hell, from my reading this is the reason the OP is complaining: he can't make the Warblade feel useless.


Did you know that is one of the signs that usually alerts me to a bad game/GM?

AtwasAwamps
2010-03-04, 10:06 AM
Any of the other classes in the party could match up to the warblade in power levels, quite easily, with a proper build/play style. You appear to feed your players a huge amount of resources, which grants them a great deal many advantages. What Iím seeing here is that you have one player who optimizes and four who donít, and thatís where your problem lies. Itís not the Warblade, itís the player.

Hell, a caster with fly available can simply take to the skies and negate a warbladeís advantages, as few if any maneuvers work at range while a wizard can peg the poor lil melee to his doom. No fly or room to small? Use one of the many no-save spells listed here, etc. etc.

Itís really not the warblade. Itís very much the player playing to a degree of optimization you arenít prepared to deal with. I strongly suggest you familiarize yourself a bit more with more of ToB so you can more of an understanding of how vulnerable a warblade can be.

Roderick_BR
2010-03-04, 10:36 AM
So, I know this has been asked before, but I would like some clarification.

What are the arguments from the Warblade? Pros and Cons

Me personally, I hate it. I think it's rediculously over-powered. I DMed a campaign where I have a player who likes to use powerful classes and behold the Warblade he presented me with. We had a Favored Soul, Necromancer, a Duskblade, and a Beguiler, but I have to say he by far outshined them.

I dislike the fact that there's a stance, that when an enemy take a 5-foot adjustment, he still suffers an AOO (it really bugs me). Second, he has these manuevers that allow him to replace any save with a concentration check that doesn't fail on a natural 1. He has 12HD when the poor fighter has 10HD and more skill points... Fourth, he can replenish all these manuevers with a 'flurry of his blades, even into thin air.

Then there's nitemare ruby blade, and time stands still, etc. Then, these aren't 'spells' so no creature can avoid them, not even partially..

But I do acknowledge that melee does want to have nice things too:smalltongue: Which, unfortunately some poeple fail to see, including myself.

But I implore you, I exhort you fellow playgrounders, please give your opinions so that I may not be so ignorant or biased.
In short, you don't like a warrior class that doesn't suck.

Blackfang108
2010-03-04, 10:37 AM
Did you know that is one of the signs that usually alerts me to a bad game/GM?

Between you and Sinfire, I think the thread is over.

The OP has triggered EVERY SINGLE criteria I have for this that can be garnered over a message board.

Tiki Snakes
2010-03-04, 11:08 AM
I disagree. Because actual players know, through the tier system, that Warblades are weaker than say a wizard, they will do much to get as close as possible (usually through the means of combat).

Of all of the thread, this stands out as the most confusing single comment, actually.

The way I read it, you are saying that on account of players knowing that Warblades are genuinely not Overpowered, they try harder, and are thus Overpowered.

I mean, uh...?

but yes, I generally agree with the several posts above mine, the problem is clearly not with the Warblade class.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-04, 11:17 AM
Aw, come on guys, he's just a little misguided. Insult him and he'll leave without listening to our advice. And then who knows what he might do to the poor warblade. :smallwink:

Indon
2010-03-04, 11:47 AM
Me personally, I hate it. I think it's rediculously over-powered. I DMed a campaign where I have a player who likes to use powerful classes and behold the Warblade he presented me with. We had a Favored Soul, Necromancer, a Duskblade, and a Beguiler, but I have to say he by far outshined them.
I'm inclined to blame this situation on your player.

The Warblade is fairly powerful, yes, but it seems that the important part for your campaign is that they are easy to optimize.

Unlike most noncasters, they have a variety of readily selectable vancian-style powers. Unlike most casters, all of their abilities have obvious, intuitive utility.

Maneuver users thus find it easy to pick out a variety of very useful maneuvers, and thus you could well overshadow a less optimized party with them, even if there are classes that are potentially more powerful.

And while I'm on the point of potential power - Maneuver-using classes don't have as much as you'd think. At the very high end of optimization, maneuver classes fall behind compared to other noncasters because while they are much easier to optimize, they're also much harder to optimize to extreme levels (because maneuvers are used in a bubble, like spells, with little potential synergy with outside sources like feats can get, and because they aren't technically spells, and so lack the extensive support for spells that exist in other books).

For instance, at the extreme end of optimization, the Fighter has far more raw power than a Warblade does, with the ability to control many opponents more easily, and even outright kill CR-equivalent opponents in a single round of melee or ranged combat. While the Warblade has much more versatility, effective optimization of a magic item budget can close this gap such that the Fighter's raw power more than makes up the difference.


Did you know that is one of the signs that usually alerts me to a bad game/GM?

You've never played in Ravenloft.

If your character can't be made impotent and your situation rendered seemingly hopeless, you're doing it wrong.

Eldan
2010-03-04, 12:23 PM
Of all of the thread, this stands out as the most confusing single comment, actually.

The way I read it, you are saying that on account of players knowing that Warblades are genuinely not Overpowered, they try harder, and are thus Overpowered.

I mean, uh...?

but yes, I generally agree with the several posts above mine, the problem is clearly not with the Warblade class.

I think what he is trying to say that players think they can optimize more if their classes are weaker, thus ending up with a character that is still pretty strong, even if the class is weak.
I.e. a wizard is a strong class, so I'll play him as an evoker. A Paladin is weaker, though, so I'll use him as pun-pun.

Draz74
2010-03-04, 12:39 PM
I'm kind of late to the discussion, but I just wanted to get confirmation of a couple things:


I dislike the fact that there's a stance, that when an enemy take a 5-foot adjustment, he still suffers an AOO (it really bugs me).
Since that's not a Warblade stance, he must have spent feats on it. Or one feat and an item. This is a big deal, in a somewhat optimized campaign; Feats are considered a character's most precious asset (except maybe caster levels). More precious than normal class levels, or magic items, or skill points, or what have you.

So the Warblade character should be feeling like he made a pretty major investment to get that Thicket of Blades stance. But here's my question: do the other characters in the group know how to pick powerful Feats carefully? Because if they're all just picking Combat Casting and other wussy PHB feats, that would explain why the Warblade is overachieving.

The Tier system only works if Feat selection quality is pretty equal between the different classes.


Second, he has these manuevers that allow him to replace any save with a concentration check that doesn't fail on a natural 1.

See, in my experience, those maneuvers aren't even worth readying for a Warblade. Sometimes the Will save one is. Definitely not all three. And at Level 15, where your party is playing, I would think Diamond Defense would replace them (which, although it covers all three saves and is a huge bonus, does fail on a natural 1).

Even without those, the Warblade is hurting for number of Readied Maneuvers. He doesn't get enough to cover all the cool things he knows how to do.

The only reason I can think of that these would seem too powerful is if they weren't being used properly. So I have to ask: was your player being careful to Ready only the proper number of maneuvers? What about keeping track of his Immediate and Swift actions? (Remember: if he uses one of these Concentration counters, he can't use another Counter before his next turn. Nor, on his next turn, can he change his stance, or use a Boost, or recover his maneuvers.)

If he was fudging either of these rules, then I can see why these maneuvers might have been overpowered.

Greenish
2010-03-04, 12:44 PM
I can't stress it enough that, in a matter of life and death, you will come prepared, so it is at no expense to the playerYes it is.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-04, 01:01 PM
Between you and Sinfire, I think the thread is over.

The OP has triggered EVERY SINGLE criteria I have for this that can be garnered over a message board.

It's not Caturday yet, so he's just short. But he's getting there.


Did you know that is one of the signs that usually alerts me to a bad game/GM?

Same here. I know I use threat neutralization during my encounters, but I don't go out of my way to make a specific player feel worthless. I just throw stuff at them like Mind Flayers or anything that can cast Glitterdust, using the same tactics they use against my encounters to mess with them. I also don't do this that often (usually once every three levels or so).

Or I just throw a Giant/Hydra at them and let them tear it to shreds. This I do much more often.

Ashiel
2010-03-04, 02:30 PM
Between you and Sinfire, I think the thread is over.

The OP has triggered EVERY SINGLE criteria I have for this that can be garnered over a message board.

Maybe that sounded a bit harsh. I meant that when a GM is intentionally trying to make a character useless. I was commenting more on Sinfire's comment than the OP; though I can see how people could see it as being linked to the OP.

Assuming the OP isn't intentionally trying to negate or make the player's character useless, then I'm not talking about him. If he is, then my statement now applies to him. It really is one of the big "red flags" I've seen amongst A) bad games and B) bad GMs (arguably the reason for A, but not always).

Optimator
2010-03-04, 02:53 PM
My opinion in the issue is that the Warblade isn't just getting this stuff for free. These are his class features and there's a real opportunity cost for any maneuver selected and readied. Also, the counters are an immediate action so no Moment of Perfect Mind followed by a Wall of Blades, nor can the next round have a boost or recover maneuvers, etc. At level 15, if a character has sunk the maneuver known, maneuver readied, and the skill points you should darn well let him auto-succeed a will save at best every other round. THese are the higher levels now, you should expect characters to be highly competent.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-04, 02:57 PM
My opinion in the issue is that the Warblade isn't just getting this stuff for free. These are his class features and there's a real opportunity cost for any maneuver selected and readied. Also, the counters are an immediate action so no Moment of Perfect Mind followed by a Wall of Blades, nor can the next round have a boost or recover maneuvers, etc. At level 15, if a character has sunk the maneuver known, maneuver readied, and the skill points you should darn well let him auto-succeed a will save at best every other round. THese are the higher levels now, you should expect characters to be highly competent.

Right. Even with Stance of Alacrity, all you need to do is target him with 3 spells in one round (Sorcerers can do this with Arcane Fusion, but you just need a minimum of 3 spellcasters).

Gnaeus
2010-03-04, 03:14 PM
If you are really bothered by the metagaming aspect of an enemy caster casting spells on him right after he has just autosucceeded, you can always add a visual component to those maneuvers. So the enemy casts, he does a flashy move and shrugs it off, but the enemy knows (with maybe a low DC knowledge check) that he just used a maneuver and he isn't immune to will effects. I don't think this kind of houserule nerfs the Warblade unfairly.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-04, 03:18 PM
If you are really bothered by the metagaming aspect of an enemy caster casting spells on him right after he has just autosucceeded, you can always add a visual component to those maneuvers. So the enemy casts, he does a flashy move and shrugs it off, but the enemy knows (with maybe a low DC knowledge check) that he just used a maneuver and he isn't immune to will effects. I don't think this kind of houserule nerfs the Warblade unfairly.

IDing a Maneuver requires Martial Lore ranks, so there you go.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-04, 03:19 PM
And I don't think it's unreasonable to rule that Martial Lore counts a "Knowledge" skill for the purposes of those classes that get Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) as class skills.

lsfreak
2010-03-04, 03:21 PM
If you are really bothered by the metagaming aspect of an enemy caster casting spells on him right after he has just autosucceeded, you can always add a visual component to those maneuvers. So the enemy casts, he does a flashy move and shrugs it off, but the enemy knows (with maybe a low DC knowledge check) that he just used a maneuver and he isn't immune to will effects. I don't think this kind of houserule nerfs the Warblade unfairly.

Don't even need to do that.


Succeeding on a Saving Throw

A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creatureís saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

You always know whether a targeted spell failed due a failed save, or something else. DOesn't help with AoE's and rays, but whatever. I suppose it's possible to interpret the Concentration check as 'not a save and therefore doesn't apply,' but that's not how I'd take it.

Harperfan7
2010-03-04, 04:16 PM
I didn't read the other posts, but heres my 2cp.

At first, I was pretty against ToB. Its kinda cheesy and the fluff/names are god awful.

But, if you go through the maneuvers and don't pick the blatantly fake crap (throwing your sword as a line attack that returns to your hand at the end of the round, but its not magic somehoe), you can make a character that isn't so much better as just more flexible (though still a bit better).

NOTE: A Warblade has a grand total of 13 manuevers at level 20. Not so much.

They don't get heavy armor or ranged weapons.

Pechvarry
2010-03-04, 04:23 PM
So maybe this is a useless gesture, but a few pages in, I want to know where this is going.

This seems like it's turning more into a "OP is being silly" and forcing the OP to move into the defensive. Here's what I see:


But I implore you, I exhort you fellow playgrounders, please give your opinions so that I may not be so ignorant or biased.

Do you, OP, feel you understand the Playgrounder's perspective?

And to the rest of the Playgrounders: please remember he came here seeking knowledge. Please don't trivialize his opinions.

---

Also, HOLY CRAP! Warblades aren't even proficient with ranged weapons! I had no idea. Swordsages are a bit better (all simple weapons, martial melee weapons including throwing), and Crusaders have all of 'em (odd. I think a Swordsage more likely to use a longbow than a crusader). But Warblade sticks out needing Bloodstorm... whatever class to fix up their range weakness.

Blackfang108
2010-03-04, 04:46 PM
Also, HOLY CRAP! Warblades aren't even proficient with ranged weapons! I had no idea. Swordsages are a bit better (all simple weapons, martial melee weapons including throwing), and Crusaders have all of 'em (odd. I think a Swordsage more likely to use a longbow than a crusader). But Warblade sticks out needing Bloodstorm... whatever class to fix up their range weakness.

Well, the class IS aimed at Warblades, IIRC (Doesn't it need IH Maneuvers?)

Bloodstorm Blade.

AslanCross
2010-03-04, 04:48 PM
Warblades can also do a one or two-level dip in Fighter to get heavy armor and ranged weapons. I think of fighter as "basic training," while being a warblade is like specializing in a martial art or two.

Gametime
2010-03-04, 04:55 PM
You've never played in Ravenloft.

If your character can't be made impotent and your situation rendered seemingly hopeless, you're doing it wrong.

Ravenloft is a setting you should pull out once a year or so. It's basically DM catharsis to get out all of the nasty negative emotions that have built up towards the players over the last several months of regular gaming.

Woe befall the unwary player who brings a character he or she cares about into Ravenloft.

Oslecamo
2010-03-04, 05:06 PM
Well, the class IS aimed at Warblades, IIRC (Doesn't it need IH Maneuvers?)

Bloodstorm Blade.

Even with it, it has a quite limited range, as you're limited to thrown weapons, and that caps at javelins with 30 feets, 5 increments for 150 feets with -10 penalty on attack rolls. A longbow has what, 120 feets before increments?

Gametime
2010-03-04, 05:22 PM
But, if you go through the maneuvers and don't pick the blatantly fake crap (throwing your sword as a line attack that returns to your hand at the end of the round, but its not magic somehoe), you can make a character that isn't so much better as just more flexible (though still a bit better).

While I understand that throwing your sword and having it come back to you clearly isn't normal, I've never understood the need for everything that's not normal in a fantasy setting to be magic.

Conan is a BAMF. He wouldn't be Conan if a swordsman in our mundane world could emulate him. I expect him to do things that are blatantly beyond the impossible, because he's a fantasy hero and fantasy heroes do fantastically heroic things, even without magic.

ChakraChanter
2010-03-04, 05:51 PM
Okay, well you all convinced me, but an issue came up.

What if a party mainly consists mainly of Tier 4 classes and Tier 5, and a Warblade? How can you create balance without killing of the rest of the crew? (Does this require a new thread?)

Finally, I've heard everyone speak for the Warblade, is there any debate against the Warblade? (At least anything good and obviously not what I said)

Edit: I have a PC set on playing the fighter and nothing else. Is there anything I can do, or that he can do to help his terrible (but loved) class?

Wings of Peace
2010-03-04, 05:55 PM
Finally, I've heard everyone speak for the Warblade, is there any debate against the Warblade? (At least anything good and obviously not what I said)

Edit: I have a PC set on playing the fighter and nothing else. Is there anything I can do, or that he can do to help his terrible (but loved) class? http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you...
I have a PC set on playing the fighter and nothing else. Is there anything I can do, or that he can do to help his terrible (but loved) class?

This may help them. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you...) As for arguments against? The main ones I hear besides the over powered claims are that just publishing stronger classes is a cop out to the old ones.

Shpadoinkle
2010-03-04, 05:57 PM
Okay, well you all convinced me, but an issue came up.

What if a party mainly consists mainly of Tier 4 classes and Tier 5, and a Warblade? How can you create balance without killing of the rest of the crew? (Does this require a new thread?)

Finally, I've heard everyone speak for the Warblade, is there any debate against the Warblade? (At least anything good and obviously not what I said)

Edit: I have a PC set on playing the fighter and nothing else. Is there anything I can do, or that he can do to help his terrible (but loved) class?

The most arguments against the warblade that I've read are "It's too strong" (which is wrong), "it outshines the fighter" (EVERYTHING outshines the fighter, fighters suck,) and "ZOMGF I DUN LIEK TEH FLUFF" (which has nothing to do with anything... or rather, it shouldn't. Apparently some people plae a lot of importance on fluff.)

Bear in mind, these are just the ones I've read and can remember.

Warblades are fighters that actually get better as they level up and have a degree of flexibility, instead of just being forced into going with an ubercharger or tripmonkey build just to not be literally useless.

Tackyhillbillu
2010-03-04, 06:02 PM
Dungeoncrasher Variant Fighter means good times for all.

lsfreak
2010-03-04, 06:07 PM
T3 isn't really any stronger than most T4 characters, they simply have more options. T6 is a different story, and they mostly just suck.

What the question really should be, is how much your group optimizes. Warblades are pre-optimized right out of the box. Fighters and barbarians both can do more damage than a warblade, but it requires knowledge of how to optimize. Sorcerers can lock a warblade down or outpace him in every single encounter, if they know what spells to pick and what spells to use in what circumstances.

If your group doesn't optimize (key things to watch for: clerics healing in combat, wizards and sorcerers making heavy use of Evocation spells, melee making a single attack at the end of a charge, druids casting in human form, unhouseruled monks and paladins contributing meaningfully), then ToB characters may well be out of place.

In this case, I'd allowing maneuvers, but through feats or items only. And possibly make the ToB classes into prestige classes of sorts. But just to clarify, this has nothing to do with the Tier of the class, and everything to do with how much the group itself optimizes.

ChakraChanter
2010-03-04, 06:10 PM
Dungeoncrasher Variant Fighter means good times for all.

Where can I locate that?

Umm, I saw a feat that looked cool. Brutal Strike, iirc, while feat intensive, I thought if combined with shock tropper, power attack, and lvl 20, that would mean a DC: 50 Fortitude save (if two-handed) or be sickened. Is that any good?

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-04, 06:10 PM
Okay, well you all convinced me, but an issue came up.

What if a party mainly consists mainly of Tier 4 classes and Tier 5, and a Warblade? How can you create balance without killing of the rest of the crew? (Does this require a new thread?)

Finally, I've heard everyone speak for the Warblade, is there any debate against the Warblade? (At least anything good and obviously not what I said)

Edit: I have a PC set on playing the fighter and nothing else. Is there anything I can do, or that he can do to help his terrible (but loved) class?

The same thing you do if the party consists of a monk, a druid, and wizard. But to a lesser degree of course. Show the fighter some really good feat chains. Tell the powerful guys not to be *******s, and focus on buffing if possible (white raven for the warblade I guess). Let the lower tiers get higher Point buy, or gestalt. Read the tier thread.

Pechvarry
2010-03-04, 06:15 PM
Where can I locate that?

Umm, I saw a feat that looked cool. Brutal Strike, iirc, while feat intensive, I thought if combined with shock tropper, power attack, and lvl 20, that would mean a DC: 50 Fortitude save (if two-handed) or be sickened. Is that any good?

Dungeonscape.

A level 3 Rogue can make someone sickened w/out a save. Both have duration of 1 round (Sickening Strike Ambush feat, btw).

ChakraChanter
2010-03-04, 06:15 PM
T3 isn't really any stronger than most T4 characters, they simply have more options. T6 is a different story, and they mostly just suck.

What the question really should be, is how much your group optimizes. Warblades are pre-optimized right out of the box. Fighters and barbarians both can do more damage than a warblade, but it requires knowledge of how to optimize. Sorcerers can lock a warblade down or outpace him in every single encounter, if they know what spells to pick and what spells to use in what circumstances.

If your group doesn't optimize (key things to watch for: clerics healing in combat, wizards and sorcerers making heavy use of Evocation spells, melee making a single attack at the end of a charge, druids casting in human form, unhouseruled monks and paladins contributing meaningfully), then ToB characters may well be out of place.

In this case, I'd allowing maneuvers, but through feats or items only. And possibly make the ToB classes into prestige classes of sorts. But just to clarify, this has nothing to do with the Tier of the class, and everything to do with how much the group itself optimizes.

Well like I stated, if supposed party has tier 4 and 5s and then a warblade. Just curious (I'm not questioning your intellect) how can a fighter and a barbarian out damage a Warblade, as I have no idea how that's possible? (ubercharger?)

ChakraChanter
2010-03-04, 06:18 PM
Dungeonscape.

A level 3 Rogue can make someone sickened w/out a save. Both have duration of 1 round (Sickening Strike Ambush feat, btw).

But I asked if that's any good? and I didn't analyze the feat intensely. So if the fighter is surrounded, could he apply the affect to more than one enemy? Also, the fighter doesn't need to be level 20, I'm sure he could be level 6 (I'm not sure, at all lol)

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-04, 06:21 PM
Well like I stated, if supposed party has tier 4 and 5s and then a warblade. Just curious (I'm not questioning your intellect) how can a fighter and a barbarian out damage a Warblade, as I have no idea how that's possible? (ubercharger?)

Check out Some handy links for CO work (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872646/Some_handy_links_for_CO_work)
Look at any of the melee builds like Jack B. Quick, Ubercharger, Trip Monk-ey of Doom, and Gatling Tripper.

EDIT: Also The Fighter Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870606/The_Fighters_Handbook_--_2007). Dictum Mortum makes good stuff. Look for handbooks for other classes for info on them, but a lot of fighter stuff applies to Barbarians as well.

(and yes brutal strike is quite good)

Math_Mage
2010-03-04, 06:51 PM
Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper. This part you know already.

Dungeoncrasher, as mentioned previously.

Probably a Barbarian dip, for Rage etc.

Zhentarium Fighter with Imperious Command.

I don't know about everyone else, but I feel like the Fighter would be quite happy taking 6-9 levels (plus a level in Barbarian) and then PrC'ing out, if there's a suitable prestige at that point (and there should be). The common complaint, echoed in the Why Tier 5's are Tier 5 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4869.0), is that Fighters don't continue to power up much past getting their first major 'trick'. A good PrC would help fix the Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards) problem.

Thrawn183
2010-03-04, 08:11 PM
Okay, well you all convinced me, but an issue came up.

What if a party mainly consists mainly of Tier 4 classes and Tier 5, and a Warblade? How can you create balance without killing of the rest of the crew? (Does this require a new thread?)

Finally, I've heard everyone speak for the Warblade, is there any debate against the Warblade? (At least anything good and obviously not what I said)

Edit: I have a PC set on playing the fighter and nothing else. Is there anything I can do, or that he can do to help his terrible (but loved) class?

Well, warblades excel against a single strong opponent, but they usually don't do so hot against multiple enemies. As mentioned earlier, they aren't very proficient against range, so that's an issue for them.

I've found level 5 is the worst level in comparing ToB characters to normal melee. They've just gotten level 3 maneuvers, and most normal melee characters haven't gotten anything at all, whereas at level 6, normal melee is getting an extra attack on a full round attack (which they'll be more likely to use, and works with haste so much better).

If you are going for melee enemies, especially at lower levels, I would go for the larger bruisers. They usually have the HP to soak up the damage from a warblade, and still possibly be able to use special abilities like grapple successfully. Try and avoid using monsters like undead. They negate the abilities of a lot of classes, and are basically supposed to be killed by pure damage output.

If I misinterpreted what you said earlier, please don't take offense at this. A character only gets a swift, move and standard action in one round. If they use an immediate action, that means they don't get to use a swift action the next round. This means that a warblade that is using counters can't actually refresh his maneuvers. In addition, refreshing maneuvers, doesn't change which maneuvers are readied. So a character that is running around with all the Diamond Mind save boosters readied, can't refresh them, much less switch them out for other maneuvers the next round.

Granted a character could have all 3 of the concentration check counters, diamond defense, and the stance of alacrity. At this point the character is using something like half of his resources (4 readied maneuvers and a stance) to be able to make one save per round, or 2 saves per round if he wants to nova defensive abilities.

Just remember, while a warblade may be able to go all day by refreshing maneuvers, within a single combat itself they still run into longevity issues if they are trying to nova like this.

As for the example in the OP, that sounded like a fairly optimized warblade. Any time I hear about a warblade that gets Thicket of Blades, I assume a fairly high level of optimization. In that campaign, I would equate it to a dread necromancer that has gotten his hands on some choice corpses to animate for awesome skeleton minions as a simple example.

Greenish
2010-03-04, 08:15 PM
In addition, refreshing maneuvers, doesn't change which maneuvers are readied. So a character that is running around with all the Diamond Mind save boosters readied, can't refresh them, much less switch them out for other maneuvers the next round.He's referring to that feat whose name I forgot. Full round action to change & refresh prepared maneuvers.

Thrawn183
2010-03-04, 08:20 PM
Right, I wasn't sure. If he was, I was going to talk about how the warblade will start quickly running out of feats as his example also picked up a non-warblade stance.

Anyhow, I think level 6 is just about the perfect level for your standard melee classes. With a single Haste spell they can get 3 attacks per round, and they should have just about finished putting together whatever their first real feat chain is, whether it is tripping or bull rushing or something else. I've found that at lower levels, while the melee characters (when not in comparison to ToB characters) are competent at their job, they don't feel like it because they haven't really become good at a specialty yet.

Akal Saris
2010-03-04, 08:28 PM
I think with some relatively simple charging optimization both the fighter and the warblade will match or exceed the warblade's damage. Ditto for a mounted fighter, a dedicated bull rushing dungeoncrasher fighter, or a well built frenzied berserker. So the fighter PC shouldn't be worried about matching the warblade if he optimizes decently.

With that said, it still locks the character into one specific tactic that won't always work, and that's basically my beef with fighters and barbarians in a nutshell.

sonofzeal
2010-03-04, 08:32 PM
Well like I stated, if supposed party has tier 4 and 5s and then a warblade. Just curious (I'm not questioning your intellect) how can a fighter and a barbarian out damage a Warblade, as I have no idea how that's possible? (ubercharger?)
If you have a party of Tier 4's and 5's, and any Tier 1-2, you're going to have issues unless the player deliberately holds back or doesn't know how to make use of the class they chose. The solution is to their homebrew fixes, or strongly encourage players to all choose stuff around the same tier. Or just deal with it. Note that you get the same problem even just in Core.

PinkysBrain
2010-03-04, 08:36 PM
What if a party mainly consists mainly of Tier 4 classes and Tier 5, and a Warblade? How can you create balance without killing of the rest of the crew? (Does this require a new thread?)
You shower them with artifact level magic items until the underlying character is just a barely visible set of eyes buried in bling.

Ashiel
2010-03-04, 09:40 PM
Okay, well you all convinced me, but an issue came up.

What if a party mainly consists mainly of Tier 4 classes and Tier 5, and a Warblade? How can you create balance without killing of the rest of the crew? (Does this require a new thread?)

Finally, I've heard everyone speak for the Warblade, is there any debate against the Warblade? (At least anything good and obviously not what I said)

Edit: I have a PC set on playing the fighter and nothing else. Is there anything I can do, or that he can do to help his terrible (but loved) class?

There's a feat in the Tome of Battle that allows you to pick a Maneuver, and can be taken as a Fighter bonus feat. Normally the feat is limited in the number of times you can take it, and has slightly unusual mechanics when compared to martial adepts. I think that it's a fairly common house-rule to remove or lesson the limitations and treat classes like fighters, rangers, barbarians, and maybe paladins, as martial adepts for the purpose of determining their initiator levels.

Essentially, you can now hand your party's fighter the ToB as a big book of potential fighter-feats. Your fighter won't sport as many maneuvers and stances as a regular Martial Adept; but you'll be able to pick up some optional component. This is an effective way for you to get rangers who can move + attack with both weapons; or a fighter who picks up Thicket of Blades to hold a line of enemies like a champ; or a barbarian picks up and enemy and throws him; or a Paladin who pops a Leading the Charge to champion his party. Or any other combination.

Not only does it help the traditional classes avoid being overshadowed by martial classes with more options, it also makes it more fun to play traditional classes. :smallsmile:

HunterOfJello
2010-03-04, 09:51 PM
There's a feat in the Tome of Battle that allows you to pick a Maneuver, and can be taken as a Fighter bonus feat. Normally the feat is limited in the number of times you can take it, and has slightly unusual mechanics when compared to martial adepts. I think that it's a fairly common house-rule to remove or lesson the limitations and treat classes like fighters, rangers, barbarians, and maybe paladins, as martial adepts for the purpose of determining their initiator levels.

Essentially, you can now hand your party's fighter the ToB as a big book of potential fighter-feats. Your fighter won't sport as many maneuvers and stances as a regular Martial Adept; but you'll be able to pick up some optional component. This is an effective way for you to get rangers who can move + attack with both weapons; or a fighter who picks up Thicket of Blades to hold a line of enemies like a champ; or a barbarian picks up and enemy and throws him; or a Paladin who pops a Leading the Charge to champion his party. Or any other combination.

Not only does it help the traditional classes avoid being overshadowed by martial classes with more options, it also makes it more fun to play traditional classes. :smallsmile:




yeah, the ToB base classes were all each created as dip classes for people already in campaigns with high level characters and work extremely well with 1-2 levels for any melee class out there.

Pluto
2010-03-04, 10:12 PM
What if a party mainly consists mainly of Tier 4 classes and Tier 5, and a Warblade? How can you create balance without killing of the rest of the crew? (Does this require a new thread?)White Raven.

Frosty
2010-03-04, 10:16 PM
Create feats for these things. Each feat gives you two or three tricks that you can do like hamstringing.

Rogues already get to do that by sacrificing SA dice via some feats in the Complete Scoundrel for example.

Knaight
2010-03-04, 10:18 PM
Fighters are horrible compared to Warblades. This is a pretty commonly held belief among D&D players I've talked to, but the way I usually run it to help balance it a bit is to consider fighters to be an adept class. That is, fighter levels don't count as half initiator levels. In addition, there is no limit to the number of times a fighter can take Martial Study. That allows the fighter to pretend he's an adept OR build something else entirely with all those juicy bonus feats.

Of course, in sheer damage, or lockdown, a highly optimized fighter can outdo a warblade easily. You have the ubercharger, the various tripper types, etc. Warblade's aren't bad, but they aren't incredible either.

Gametime
2010-03-04, 10:23 PM
Create feats for these things. Each feat gives you two or three tricks that you can do like hamstringing.

Rogues already get to do that by sacrificing SA dice via some feats in the Complete Scoundrel for example.

At the risk of sounding obnoxious, Martial Study can do just that. (Environmental special moves are still up to the DM...but slowing someone's movement, forcing them to move, punishing them for moving, blocking their attacks, and so on are all covered by maneuvers.)

Godskook
2010-03-04, 10:56 PM
What if a party mainly consists mainly of Tier 4 classes and Tier 5, and a Warblade? How can you create balance without killing of the rest of the crew? (Does this require a new thread?)

Depends on what you're looking for.

1.Are you wanting each character to be equally powerful? Forget it. 3.5 isn't for you if that's the case. I've heard great things about 4.0 in this regards, but 3.5 has choices, some with rather painful consequences.

2.Are you wanting each player to be relevant to the action? This is possible. Just because a warblade is more powerful than a fighter doesn't mean that, standing side-by-side in battle, the warblade won't appreciate the fighter's contribution. In fact, a good fighter can compete or outshine a poorly played warblade.

3.Are you wanting each player to 'shine'? Encourage your good players to play team-style, rather than as the team's star.


Finally, I've heard everyone speak for the Warblade, is there any debate against the Warblade? (At least anything good and obviously not what I said)

Read Iron Heart Surge sanely, be prepared to houserule White Raven Tactics if you have to, but that's about all I can think of.


Edit: I have a PC set on playing the fighter and nothing else. Is there anything I can do, or that he can do to help his terrible (but loved) class?

See if you can talk him into playing Jack B. Quick. Iirc, that build almost requires 20 fighter levels, and gets an absurd number of attacks per round.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-05, 02:46 AM
. Just because a warblade is more powerful than a fighter doesn't mean that, standing side-by-side in battle, the warblade won't appreciate the fighter's contribution.

The answer to this could be White Raven, BTW.

Some times ago, a guy in these boards asked how to optimize a Warblade mainly toward this school, because had other two meleers (a barbarian and a fighter) in the party and wanted to create a coordinated team.

So, most times is more a matter of mind-set than of rules.

Godskook
2010-03-05, 02:58 AM
Ah yes, I didn't even remember how well White Raven works with team Melee.

Runestar
2010-03-05, 03:04 AM
Ah yes, I didn't even remember how well White Raven works with team Melee.
It works well with spellcasters as well. If you can't reach the ranged foe because he is flying out of reach, use it to give the casters or archers extra actions.

Also, stating that the warblade is stronger than the fighter is kinda subjective. More versatile, yes. But it actually lags behind in terms of damage, because its standard action strikes tend to be inferior to a full attack damage-wise (they do have some very choice status effects though, such as stun with no save).


He's referring to that feat whose name I forgot. Full round action to change & refresh prepared maneuvers.

During which you are doing squat for that round. Though adaptive style is really neat for swapping in that custom array of maneuvers in the first round of combat. It also combos well with moment of alacrity. :smallsmile:

ChakraChanter
2010-03-05, 06:11 AM
I've read Iron Heart Surge, and I don't think I'm getting the general gist of it's controversy (Please don't comment on my ability to read or understand).

And what is the potential of White Raven tactics, if exploited?

Eldan
2010-03-05, 06:20 AM
Basically, Iron Heart Surge does not properly define what it works against. People have argued that "affecting you" (I don't remember the precise wording), can include almost anything, including ridiculous stuff. The most well known is probably "Surging the Sun away", i.e. ending the sun because it's rays affect you.

Secondly, one of the Wizards organs for publishing rules clarifications stated that if you use IHS to remove a spell with multiple targets, it ends for all of them (i.e. if you are one target of Mass Hold Monster, you can free your entire party), and that you can end emanations. The example they gave was Antimagic Field, cast by someone else.

Most DMs recommend ignoring that and going case by case.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 06:33 AM
I've read Iron Heart Surge, and I don't think I'm getting the general gist of it's controversy (Please don't comment on my ability to read or understand).

And what is the potential of White Raven tactics, if exploited?

Iron Heart Surge allows you to dispel an AMF, a task that for spellcasters requires a 9th level spell. It can also get rid of a large amount of things... but NOT charm, dominate, paralysis and so on.

White Raven Tactics can be abused to provide infinite action loops if you know how.

Runestar
2010-03-05, 06:50 AM
Basically, it is unclear what IHS affects.

Some effects seem fair enough, such as fatigue/exhaustion (from say waves of exhaustion), a str penalty from ray of enfeeblement, slow effect ala the spell or even the blindness effect from glitterdust. This can make for fairly cinematic moments where the warblade is portrayed as drawing deep into his reserves to shrug off some debilitating effect through sheer force of will (or ignore its drawbacks).

However, some effects blur the line. What about negative lvs from enervation or poison/disease?

Even without considering ridiculous interpretations such as surging off epic spells or AMFs, it is debatable if higher lv spells such as maze should be affected or not.

Ironically, you can't surge away a hold person because you can't move. :smallconfused:

Simply put, it works against effects it shouldn't, yet fails to work on effects it should.


White Raven Tactics can be abused to provide infinite action loops if you know how.

How?

I know 2 warblades with adaptive style can take turns granting each other an extra turn via white raven tactics, resulting in infinite turns, but they will be unable to accomplish anything since this pretty much eats up all their actions for that round (1 swift, 1 full round).

I suppose if they could find some way of getting extra actions (like say, 2 choker warblades...) :smallcool:

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 07:05 AM
How?

I know 2 warblades with adaptive style can take turns granting each other an extra turn via white raven tactics, resulting in infinite turns, but they will be unable to accomplish anything since this pretty much eats up all their actions for that round (1 swift, 1 full round).

I suppose if they could find some way of getting extra actions (like say, 2 choker warblades...) :smallcool:

Ruby Knight Vindicator + Adaptive Style can do it until you run out of turn attempts (Guy 1: swift White Raven Tactics on Guy 2, full round recover maneuvers, extra swift White Raven Tactics on Guy 3), although I'll admit that is a bit of work.

Of course, what you do with that is you have Guy 1 and Guy 2 being RKVs, and Guy 3 being a caster.

Ashiel
2010-03-05, 07:56 AM
Interestingly, I always liked that Iron Heart Surge can break an anti-magic field. There are several reasons for this:

It lets them do something that spell-casters have a legitimately hard time doing. Even the 9th level mage's disjunction only sports a 20% chance to break an AMF, but the Warblade can shut it down.
Linked with the previous reason, this makes the melee character the spell-caster's best friend forever; even into the very high levels where casters rule the show.
Anti-magic field always struck me as an obnoxious spell anyway. It's not a balancing factor for spell-casters; hurts non-casters as well (shuts your magic items down); it's heinously difficult to get rid of. On a side note, I generally dislike anything that gives blanket immunities or shuts down entire schools or strategies. I'm not very fond of things like Mind Blank, Heavy Fortification, or Animated Shields either.
Something always struck me as purely "awesome" when I imagined a Dragon popping an AMF (to shut down the magic items of the melee folk and to ignore virtually all core magic), and the Warblade shattering the spell with his fury and iron will. :smallamused:
I never could figure out how being able to break an AMF was unbalanced. I usually just see AMF used as a crutch by DMs who are too lazy to challenge characters without littering the world with AMFs; and that's the kind of person who I imagine when someone goes "IHS can stop antimagic field. Broken!"

magic9mushroom
2010-03-05, 07:59 AM
Interestingly, I always liked that Iron Heart Surge can break an anti-magic field. There are several reasons for this:

It lets them do something that spell-casters have a legitimately hard time doing. Even the 9th level mage's disjunction only sports a 20% chance to break an AMF, but the Warblade can shut it down.
Linked with the previous reason, this makes the melee character the spell-caster's best friend forever; even into the very high levels where casters rule the show.
Anti-magic field always struck me as an obnoxious spell anyway. It's not a balancing factor for spell-casters; hurts non-casters as well (shuts your magic items down); it's heinously difficult to get rid of. On a side note, I generally dislike anything that gives blanket immunities or shuts down entire schools or strategies. I'm not very fond of things like Mind Blank, Heavy Fortification, or Animated Shields either.
Something always struck me as purely "awesome" when I imagined a Dragon popping an AMF (to shut down the magic items of the melee folk and to ignore virtually all core magic), and the Warblade shattering the spell with his fury and iron will. :smallamused:
I never could figure out how being able to break an AMF was unbalanced. I usually just see AMF used as a crutch by DMs who are too lazy to challenge characters without littering the world with AMFs; and that's the kind of person who I imagine when someone goes "IHS can stop antimagic field. Broken!"


Yeah, I can see it being alright for the Warblade.

However, casters with two Martial Study feats can get it too.

Which gets crazy fast.

Indon
2010-03-05, 09:26 AM
Ravenloft is a setting you should pull out once a year or so. It's basically DM catharsis to get out all of the nasty negative emotions that have built up towards the players over the last several months of regular gaming.

Woe befall the unwary player who brings a character he or she cares about into Ravenloft.

Well, yeah, woe is the idea, being a horror-flavored campaign setting.


Okay, well you all convinced me, but an issue came up.

What if a party mainly consists mainly of Tier 4 classes and Tier 5, and a Warblade? How can you create balance without killing of the rest of the crew? (Does this require a new thread?)

Help the other players optimize a bit. Or subtly tweak loot to help them out a bit.


Finally, I've heard everyone speak for the Warblade, is there any debate against the Warblade? (At least anything good and obviously not what I said)

It's a big step along a slippery slope towards homogenizing player characters.

That is to say, it's the 4E D&D mindset (mechanical equality at the cost of mechanical diversity) in the 3E D&D ruleset.


You shower them with artifact level magic items until the underlying character is just a barely visible set of eyes buried in bling.

I think he's asking about tips which involve nonstandard D&D DMing. :P

But seriously, wealth by level is very potent and even slight adjustments above the norm, or offering higher-utility items to your players, significantly boosts lower-power classes (and boosts low-tier classes more than high-tier ones, because, well, your Fighter would like those boots of hovering more than your Wizard with Fly does - the Fighter gains an entirely new capability, the Wizard gets a spare spell slot).

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-05, 09:31 AM
But seriously, wealth by level is very potent and even slight adjustments above the norm, or offering higher-utility items to your players, significantly boosts lower-power classes (and boosts low-tier classes more than high-tier ones, because, well, your Fighter would like those boots of hovering more than your Wizard with Fly does - the Fighter gains an entirely new capability, the Wizard gets a spare spell slot).

In my experience, if well realized, this is a great advice.

d13
2010-03-05, 10:59 AM
Yeah, I can see it being alright for the Warblade.

However, casters with two Martial Study feats can get it too.

Which gets crazy fast.

Houserule that Casters can't get Martial Study.

It's stupid that a bookworm would be able to attain the martial expertise level to do it, anyway.

Runestar
2010-03-05, 11:14 AM
Houserule that Casters can't get Martial Study.

It's stupid that a bookworm would be able to attain the martial expertise level to do it, anyway.

A lich sure would appreciate being able to use mind over body against that disintegrate...:smallbiggrin:

DragoonWraith
2010-03-05, 11:16 AM
Houserule that Casters can't get Martial Study.

It's stupid that a bookworm would be able to attain the martial expertise level to do it, anyway.
Jade Phoenix Mages are now crying. Not all casters are bookworms. That's a dumb justification and a poor fix. With Martial Study, a caster can get rid of one AMF affecting him per encounter. Significant, very, but counterable.

Or just, ya know, gentleman's agreement on that one.

SpikeFightwicky
2010-03-05, 11:48 AM
Iron Heart Surge allows you to dispel an AMF, a task that for spellcasters requires a 9th level spell. It can also get rid of a large amount of things... but NOT charm, dominate, paralysis and so on.

White Raven Tactics can be abused to provide infinite action loops if you know how.

But the AMF doesn't technically affect the WB, as he's not magical. It affects any items and spells that were cast on him.

Mike_G
2010-03-05, 11:48 AM
Iron Heart Surge just requires the player and DM to be reasonable.

If the "effect" in question is something you can imagine Conan, when in its thoes, furrowing his brow, flexing his mighty thews, and bursting free with a growl that grows to a shout of "crrrrrrrrrrrroooooooooooooOOOOOOMMMM!!!!"

Then IHS should work.

Paralysis, Charm, Enfeeblement, Fatigue, all those make sense. Dispellling a whole Anti Magic Field, or ending a Web, not so much.

And anyone who trots out "Surge the Sun away" gets a savage beating with a DMG and asked if their Iron Heart can surge away those bruises.

It's a good ability, a fun one and one that is well supported in the pulpier fantasy literature. Just don't be a rules lawyering douche.

Greenish
2010-03-05, 12:12 PM
If the "effect" in question is something you can imagine Conan, when in its thoes, furrowing his brow, flexing his mighty thews, and bursting free with a growl that grows to a shout of "crrrrrrrrrrrroooooooooooooOOOOOOMMMM!!!!"

Then IHS should work.That is an awesome rule of thumb. :smallcool:

Draz74
2010-03-05, 12:19 PM
Agreed. That's pretty much how I adjucate IHS.

ZeroNumerous
2010-03-05, 12:19 PM
I know 2 warblades with adaptive style can take turns granting each other an extra turn via white raven tactics, resulting in infinite turns, but they will be unable to accomplish anything since this pretty much eats up all their actions for that round (1 swift, 1 full round).

I suppose if they could find some way of getting extra actions (like say, 2 choker warblades...) :smallcool:

They don't need extra actions when they're in melee range. A warblade can recover maneuvers with a single unmodified attack upon an enemy. Two warblades standing side-by-side can alternate between WRTing and swinging at the enemy until the enemy's turn comes up or the enemy dies.

Draz74
2010-03-05, 12:20 PM
They don't need extra actions when they're in melee range. A warblade can recover maneuvers with a single unmodified attack upon an enemy. Two warblades standing side-by-side can alternate between WRTing and swinging at the enemy until the enemy's turn comes up or the enemy dies.

Nope, they need a swift action plus an unmodified attack on the enemy to recover.

So if they're using their swift action on WRT, they don't have any left.

Eldan
2010-03-05, 12:55 PM
The Conan rule is pretty much how I've handled. Without the explicit inclusion of Conan, of course.

Now, I'd even allow running through a web without being hindered by it, maybe. Just not removing the entire thing.

2xMachina
2010-03-05, 01:12 PM
Nope, they need a swift action plus an unmodified attack on the enemy to recover.

So if they're using their swift action on WRT, they don't have any left.

Belt of battle for both. Refresh swift action for 3 reps. Swap out the belt for each encounter.

EDIT: As for IHS, I like to treat it like a disbelieved illusion. Doesn't affect you anymore, but it's still there for other people.

Conan, so awesome that he can disbelieve real magic.

sofawall
2010-03-05, 01:35 PM
Belt of Battle costs a swift to activate, and gives a full-round action. Not a full rounds worth of actions.

2xMachina
2010-03-05, 01:46 PM
Ah, yeah. Remembered wrongly. Move/Standard/Full with Swift only...

Runestar
2010-03-05, 05:16 PM
Hmm...(WRT = white raven tactics)

2xchoker warblade4 or 5 (depending on whether you let racial HD count towards IL or not). Takes adaptive style feat, the rest is not important.

Both move within 10 ft of a PC to threaten him.
C1: Initiates WRT on C2, refreshes maneuvers as full-round action, attacks with standard action (either basic or some other maneuver).
C2: Initiates WRT on C1, refreshes maneuvers as full-round action, attacks with standard action.

Both rinse and repeat.

Is there a reason via RAW why this wouldn't work (not shouldn't work, mind you).

Godskook
2010-03-05, 05:22 PM
I think that Choker or RKV TO builds are a little beyond the point of this thread, aren't they?

Hell, any never-made-for-PCs monster is probably beyond the point of a thread related to PCs.

Draz74
2010-03-05, 05:31 PM
Is there a reason via RAW why this wouldn't work (not shouldn't work, mind you).

Nope, when you throw in Chokers the combo works fine. Still not an infinite loop, FWIW, since they lose 1 Initiative each time they go through this process.

Godskook
2010-03-05, 05:34 PM
Nope, when you throw in Chokers the combo works fine. Still not an infinite loop, FWIW, since they lose 1 Initiative each time they go through this process.

Until you realize that there's no rules concerning rolling over negative initiative values of one round into positive initiative values of the next, as far as I know.

Argh! Now you've got me doing it!

Runestar
2010-03-05, 05:34 PM
I think that Choker or RKV TO builds are a little beyond the point of this thread, aren't they?

Hell, any never-made-for-PCs monster is probably beyond the point of a thread related to PCs.

Well, swiftblade does eventually grant you an extra standard action...so sorc6/swiftblade10/warblade2? Though by that time, your casters are already abusing gate and miracle, so...:smalleek:


Nope, when you throw in Chokers the combo works fine. Still not an infinite loop, FWIW, since they lose 1 Initiative each time they go through this process.

How exactly does the loss of initiative ultimately affect them? Never understood its significance.

Draz74
2010-03-05, 06:00 PM
How exactly does the loss of initiative ultimately affect them? Never understood its significance.

Well, I hadn't thought about negative initiative numbers like Godskook points out, but my point was:

If Choker1 has an Initiative of 14, Enemy has an Initiative of 10, and Choker2 has an Initiative of 7, then our two Choker Warblades are only going to be able to get in 4 or 5 attacks before their enemy does get to respond at least once.

Choker1 attacks, uses WRT to give Choker2 an Initiative of 13.

Choker2 attacks, uses WRT to give Choker1 an Initiative of 12, recharges.

Choker1 recharges, uses WRT to give Choker2 an Initiative of 11, attacks.

And so forth. Note that their Initiative numbers are dropping each time they do the trick, and that the guy with Initiative 10 will eventually get to act.

Now can we get back to discussing normal Warblades?

Runestar
2010-03-05, 06:59 PM
So what is left to be discussed?

Thrawn183
2010-03-05, 07:11 PM
That excepting extra action shenaningans, White Raven is an amazing school that won't leave other players feeling like they've been left out in the cold.

Frosty
2010-03-05, 07:14 PM
WRT needs only one houserule: You can't use it on yourself. That is all.