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View Full Version : PEACH: A casting system for Harry Potter D20



Matt318
2010-03-05, 08:35 AM
Hello all. I've been developing and occasionally playtesting with my group a Harry Potter D20 system. I am still revising the casting system to make it feel more like the books, while maintaining a very easy level of playability. Here is my current design with some different options at the end.

There are magical skills for casting such as Transfiguration, Charms, Defense, Dark Arts, Divination, etc.
The skills are calculated as ability modifier + character level + d20 + trained bonus (trained = +5)
Defenses are similarly calculated as 10 + character level + ability modifer + class bonus
Casting a spell means that you roll your appropriate skill vs the defense of the target if applicable, if you overcome their defense, the spell takes effect. Some spells have effects even if you miss their defense such as Confringo (like fireball without the fire)
I also use "saving throws" which are like defense, but you roll a D20 in place of the static 10, for situations like ongoing spell effects where your trying to resist an effect, or if you drank a potion you didn't want to etc. (example, A dark wizard casts Crucio on a character, and overcomes the target's fortitude defense, so the spell begins (it is a spell that lasts for concentration up to 1 round per level). The second round he doesn't need to roll any more Dark Arts checks, just use his standard action to keep the spell active, while the target is now entitled to a Fortitude saving throw against the original Dark Arts roll made by the caster to resist and end the effect.)
Spells are classified as levels 1 - 9 for ease of transition of using D&D spells in the system. In game they are titled instead of numbered (basic, beginner, intermediate, OWL, NEWT, advanced, complex, rare, old magic). Each level has a Learn DC attributed to it (10, 15, 19, 22, 25, 28, 31, 35, 40). If you try to cast a spell you've never cast before, you must compare your skill result to this DC in addition to overcoming the target's defense (if applicable). There is also a table that allows for partial results or spectacular backfires depending on how much you miss the Learn DC of the spell by.
A character who could take 10 and pass the DC of a spell, no longer needs to check against the learn DC when they cast the spell because they have "mastered it". This does not mean that they are taking 10 it simply removes the check against the DC of the spell, so that they could roll below a 10 and have the spell work (although probably wouldn't get through the target's defense anyway if it was an offensive type spell).
Vitality and wound points system are used. Healing magic can repair wound damage but not vitality damage. Vitality comes back at a rate of your level per hour. All characters have a second wind ability to regain some vitality in emergency situations once per day, with a feat allowing it another time, and a talent in the Gryffindor class allowing it another. In addition, the Hufflepuff class has a talent that allows them to heal an ally who is below half some vitality once per encounter.

Here is the part that has been argued in play testing and I have waffled on as to what to do for design.

Casting a spell costs vitality equal to its level. Thus casting simple light charm on your wand costs 1 vitality, while an explosion would cost 5 vitality. Metamagic feats (casting a spell silently, casting a spell without a wand, etc.) multiply the cost by an amount. Silent spell multiplies the cost by x2 for example. One wand core (unicorn hair) reduces the cost of a spell by one vitality to a minimum of 1.

Arguments from my play test against this method is that it could lead to situations where characters can't cast spells because they are tired. This is never shown in the books or movies as being a limitation on magic. Also players feel that using the same pool that are considered "hit points" means that they are encouraged to not use magic so that they will be able to take a hit instead. Alternative to the last point...

Spells don't cost any vitality to cast unless your trying to cast a spell you haven't mastered and miss the Learn DC. The table for missing the spell now means that if you fail by 5 or less, the spell still might work but will cost you some vitality to cast it. For instance Harry trying to cast a patronus charm which is beyond what he should be able to do in his 3rd year and in the books it is described as draining his energy to keep his Patronus active while in later years there is no draining effect described. Metamagic feats will alter a spell's DC by a certain amount. For example if you are casting Expelliarmus, the normal DC is 19 to cast it. A character whose Defense skill score is +10 is said to have mastered this spell, and doesn't need to worry about beating a 19 on his roll anymore (because by taking 10 he would have gotten a 20). If he wanted to cast the spell silently (and had the silent spell feat), the DC would be increased by 5 to a 24. He is now must check against the DC of the spell, costing him some vitality if he fails by a little or not having the spell work at all if he fails by alot.

Well that's the casting system. Please give me your feedback! Thanks. :smallsmile:

Silverscale
2010-03-05, 10:42 AM
Spells don't cost any vitality to cast unless your trying to cast a spell you haven't mastered and miss the Learn DC. The table for missing the spell now means that if you fail by 5 or less, the spell still might work but will cost you some vitality to cast it. For instance Harry trying to cast a patronus charm which is beyond what he should be able to do in his 3rd year and in the books it is described as draining his energy to keep his Patronus active while in later years there is no draining effect described. Metamagic feats will alter a spell's DC by a certain amount. For example if you are casting Expelliarmus, the normal DC is 19 to cast it. A character whose Defense skill score is +10 is said to have mastered this spell, and doesn't need to worry about beating a 19 on his roll anymore (because by taking 10 he would have gotten a 20). If he wanted to cast the spell silently (and had the silent spell feat), the DC would be increased by 5 to a 24. He is now must check against the DC of the spell, costing him some vitality if he fails by a little or not having the spell work at all if he fails by alot.



I'd have to see more numbers to get a better idea of how it works, but from what I see here this looks like it would work right to emulate the way casting is done in the books.

A possible feat/ability, whatever (not sure what it would be, that I've had bouncing around in my head is:
Desperate Attempt: With a strong enough desire to make this spell work (OMG this must work or I'm/we're screwed) you manage to pull of a spell that is well above what you can cast at this point. (either because you're already very exhausted or it's well above your level) However you are left drained for at least the next day.

Possible end results, depending on magnitude, of using this are, but are not limited to: Pass out for several minutes/hours, very weak when you wake up until you recover.
Drain all your magic for the rest of the day, must do nothing but rest until at least 50% recovered.

Matt318
2010-03-05, 10:57 AM
Silverscale, thanks for the input. One part of my system that I will mention is the use of "magic points" which are about the same as Destiny Points from Star Wars Saga edition. You get one per level, and they don't come back after they are used (unless its a very special ruling by the DM). The use of these points is similar to the use of Destiny Points if your familiar with those. An automatic success, make an attack miss you, take damage for another person etc. These are meant to give the sense of heroism that is in HP, as well as being a system for preventing lethal damage to wound points.

For example in the books they describe Nevil as being dropped out a window to see if he was magical or a squib, and he bounced away to safety. Also when Harry unintentionally gets mad as his Aunt and blows her up like a balloon, etc. These are all uses of "magic points" in my system for HP which allow you to do things that you would otherwise never be able to do or to prevent damage that might otherwise kill you.

Using a Destiny (magic) point doesn't fatigue you or anything as you suggested, but it does represent a hard decision because you only get one of them per level ever.

PEACH =)

Silverscale
2010-03-05, 04:51 PM
Silverscale, thanks for the input. One part of my system that I will mention is the use of "magic points" which are about the same as Destiny Points from Star Wars Saga edition. You get one per level, and they don't come back after they are used (unless its a very special ruling by the DM). The use of these points is similar to the use of Destiny Points if your familiar with those. An automatic success, make an attack miss you, take damage for another person etc. These are meant to give the sense of heroism that is in HP, as well as being a system for preventing lethal damage to wound points.

For example in the books they describe Nevil as being dropped out a window to see if he was magical or a squib, and he bounced away to safety. Also when Harry unintentionally gets mad as his Aunt and blows her up like a balloon, etc. These are all uses of "magic points" in my system for HP which allow you to do things that you would otherwise never be able to do or to prevent damage that might otherwise kill you.

Using a Destiny (magic) point doesn't fatigue you or anything as you suggested, but it does represent a hard decision because you only get one of them per level ever.

PEACH =)

That works too I guess although I would still like to see some numbers and other information on what you're putting together because it sounds interesting.

Dante & Vergil
2010-03-11, 12:38 AM
I think this is pretty neat, especially the "magic points". I love it a lot!:smallbiggrin:

Zexion
2010-03-11, 12:54 AM
Pretty cool system. "Magic Points" should have an actual mechanic for usage.

Riffington
2010-03-12, 09:52 AM
Have you read/played Ars Magica?
I wonder if you would be better off using that as your starting point rather than D20...

Dante & Vergil
2010-03-12, 02:16 PM
I was thinking when using magic points, it works with the intent of the user best at heart, at that moment. It can do this by replicating spells that one of the character's level could cast, whether or not the caster actually knows them, or magic that may not even exist. If the user is in extreme need or distress, it replicates stronger, more powerful spells that maybe controlled, or not, depending on the situation, I guess. This could be used for a Harry Potter game, but this could work really well in a regular game.

Zexion
2010-03-12, 02:31 PM
In a regular game, Magic Points would have an EXP cost. Something along the lines of 150 x class level for usage.

Lunix Vandal
2010-03-12, 04:55 PM
Having played a bit of SWSE myself, I think that you could probably go all the way and have an equivalent to Force Points as well, for those lesser acts of "We really really want this to work but if it doesn't we'll still survive. Probably."

Destiny/Magic Points, as described, already have a built-in XP cost of sorts -- in that you only get one per level (and they don't carry over). In effect, using your one D/MP means you have to rack up another 1000*CL XP before you can do it again, unless your DM feels merciful and hands you another one before that for (severely) raining on Voldemort's parade.

One could also argue for having some method to specialize in one or more wizarding areas at the cost of neglecting others. An example here could be Gilderoy Lockhart: far-above-average ability with Memory Charms, but woefully incompetent at everything else. Sure, he's got 20 Charisma and Charms as his (possibly only) trained skill, but he (presumably) has a high enough caster level that one wonders why his students (Hermione in particular) are better across (almost) the (entire) board than he is (parenthetical statement).

Along the same lines is the smallish problem that anyone who has a non-negative modifier in any of the stats keyed to one of the casting skills would (under this system) get instant mastery in all of the "basic" spells in that category essentially for free. Similarly, merely picking up training gives you the "beginner" spells. At level 4, with training and "merely" a +3 ability modifier, you've already mastered OWL-level casting, with NEWT-level spells mastered automagically at level 7, "advanced" at 10, "complex" at 13, and "rare" at 18. All of these arrive sooner if you have some means of raising your ability modifier or if you take a Skill Focus feat (or similar), and are delayed by "just" five levels if you omit training.

[plot-hole-rant] Hence the Gilderoy conundrum: even if he has +0 in the stats not tied to Charms, 20 Cha, Skill Training (Charms), and Skill Focus (Charms), he would still (at minimum) need to be Level 6 to have mastered "advanced" Charms -- which is also the point at which you are guaranteed to have mastery in all of the "basic" and "beginner" spells, given +0 ability modifiers and no training. Which, again, would in theory put Gilderoy at or above the casting capabilities of his second-year students (i.e. Hermione, keeping in mind that he has to somehow teach the sixth- and seventh-years as well), while his utter inability to reliably pass his non-Charms OWLs should have tipped off the administration that he is a blatant fraud. Like, say, 10-20 years before Chamber of Secrets, when he presumably actually took his OWLs/NEWTs. [/plot-hole-rant]

Zexion
2010-03-12, 04:59 PM
I think that it is more important to make sure that a wizard has access to Magic Points if they need them, am I right?
Come to think of it, you might want to factor in a scaling cost, so if you use two Magic Points at lvl 16, the second costs much more...

Dante & Vergil
2010-03-16, 05:50 PM
I'm using a magic point now to bump this thread.:smalltongue:

Matt318
2010-07-28, 12:19 PM
Along the same lines is the smallish problem that anyone who has a non-negative modifier in any of the stats keyed to one of the casting skills would (under this system) get instant mastery in all of the "basic" spells in that category essentially for free. Similarly, merely picking up training gives you the "beginner" spells. At level 4, with training and "merely" a +3 ability modifier, you've already mastered OWL-level casting, with NEWT-level spells mastered automagically at level 7, "advanced" at 10, "complex" at 13, and "rare" at 18. All of these arrive sooner if you have some means of raising your ability modifier or if you take a Skill Focus feat (or similar), and are delayed by "just" five levels if you omit training.

Thrawn, I am aware of the progression of learning spells. I made a fun little spreadsheet in google docs that lists all the possibilities and codes them with color =) You are right in what your saying, and it has been a headache for me to try and figure out what to do.

Trained/Untrained skill system
Downside: Someone who is trained, is immediately ALOT better than someone who isn't trained. If we use the 1/2 character level bonus, then it means that untrained characters are never going to be able to cast anything but the most simple of spells.

Upside: There is no skill points like 3.5. In this system where skills are your main "weapon" everyone is going to want more skill points, and to put all their points into their magic skills. Skills such as persuasion, athletics, endurance, etc will not get any skill points put into them.

Traditional D20 Skill point system
Upside: The progression of traditional class/cross-class skills and their max ranks leads to a perfect progression for spell learning. At first, both trained and untrained characters are very close in terms of what their total bonuses are, so they are learning about the same level spells. As time progresses, people who have selected certain magic skills as class skills (through a feat) will outpace those who left them as cross class, so that at the end of the 20 level progression, the difference is significant. This would also correctly portray characters like gilderoy lockheart who would have a low intelligence (few skill points) and simply never had any skill points to put into his "defense" skill.

Issues: As noted above, using the skill point system in this setting would lead to characters all wanting to have int as their highest skill, as well as putting all of their skill points into magical skills. I know that this depends on the player/DM/Campaign relationship, but I want a system that is well designed to at least hamper "power gamers" with set rules.

The other issue with classic d20 system of skill points, would be what to do with saving throws/defenses. The old style of high/low progressions in D&D mean simply a character will never resist a single spell because of the difference in numbers. If I made saving throws skills instead, then it would be a hinderance on characters to want to put skill points into those skills as well as their magic skills, furthering the fact that traditional skills would be overlooked.


This is the crux of the design issues I have with the system, either it works well and is playable (trained/untrained) but not realistic, or it is realistic but not playable. This is also the reason I haven't replied here in a very long time, because of these frustrations. I have play tested both ways, and had the above issues with each, so I had begun to give up on the project even though I have done alot of (imo good) work on it.

Solution???
I had put this project off for a while because I didn't know what to try next, but I have recently had an idea.


use a traditional skill point system
at character creation, characters start with a number of skill points equal to their intelligence
characters do NOT receive skill points as they gain a level, but rather skill points are awarded at the discretion of the GM, along with experience points.
class skills have a max rank of the character's level
cross class skills have a max rank of 1/2 the character's level


Example: A DM gives a player 4 skill points for the adventure that they just had in the Slytherin's dungeons below the lake. The player can now put these skill points into any of his skills. This player has already put the maximum number of skill points for his level into his magical skills, so he chooses to put the skill points into some of the skills he has neglected, such as his acrobatics skill, so that he doesn't fall into as many traps next time he is in the dungeon.

Some issues that already come to mind are:

What should be the basic rate for awarding skill points? We wouldn't want a character to "max out" all of his skills before leveling up, but we also want them to have enough so that they feel comfortable spending skill points on skills that are more secondary to spell casting.
Should saving throws be turned into skills or not? Traditional low/high saving throws that were in D&D 3.5 will not work...



Well, if anyone has some great ideas, I would be glad to get back into this project and re-launch its website.

I would appreciate anyone's suggestions on this issue. =)

Mindflayer
2010-08-01, 12:54 AM
I definitely think that this project needs revival. So, I think we should begin to abandon, or at least move away from the standard D20 level system, because, I think it begins to develop into these kinds of issues. So maybe move more towards something like a full skill system, keep stats (str, dex, con, int, wis, cha), and then make HP like con score+health skill, then saves: fort skill, will skill, and ref skill, along with all the other skills you already mentioned, then put a cap similar to the DFRPG system, different levels of play based on campaign style capping both starting skills, and skill improvements gained per adventure. Anyways thats my $0.02

Roland St. Jude
2010-08-01, 07:01 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Thread necromancy.