PDA

View Full Version : Good Shadow Conjuration uses



Frosty
2010-03-07, 01:24 AM
Ok, so I'm thinking about picking up Shadow Conjuration as my 7th level Beguiler/Mindbender 1 Advanced Learning choice (Beguilers don't really get a lot of good choices at low levels since they know almost all the good enchantment and illusion spells I feel). Can peeps give me some tips as to how a Beguiler can use Shadow Conjuration to good effect? Can I use it to summon a Phantom Steed in one standard action instead of 10 minutes? Can I use it to summon Greater Mage Armor to protect me? (do enemies get a will save to disbelieve the armor and ignore most of it?) What are some generally good uses for it?

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-07, 01:31 AM
Shadow conjuration can mimic any spell of the conjuration school up to a certain level IIRC. Find some conjurations you like and put em to work. As for your examples: yes, you could use use shadow conjuration that way, though in the case of the mage armor you'd use shadow conjuration's duration instead of mage armor's. As for the save vs disbelief, It'd be up to your DM if the enemy got a save. If he did it wouldn't be made until he attempted/succeeded to hit you at least once.

Frosty
2010-03-07, 01:39 AM
Shadow conj doesn't have its own Duration it works off of whatever spell it mimics. I'm looking for good spells to mimic.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-07, 01:43 AM
Word of warning: Using Shadow Conjuration not only adds SR: YES, but also adds a Will Save on top of it. This makes it sub-par for many uses. Greater Magic Armor is a good one to use it on, as you can always choose to fail your will save.

If you don't mind that, you can always do a lot of good crowd control with it. Stinking Cloud, Grease, Web...

Xan_Kriegor
2010-03-07, 01:52 AM
I'd just like to add in that Shadow Conjuration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowconjuration.htm) has the following stipulation (albeit minor, but it's still something of note):

Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower.Mage Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magearmor.htm) is a (creation) spell, so it still works, but just make sure to check what descriptors your spells have so you can cast them.

Pluto
2010-03-07, 01:57 AM
I'm a big fan of Phantom Steed.

Create Magic Tatoo is pretty neat also (when it's a cheap +1 CL, anyway).

Sleet Storm can be a good time if your party disbelieves.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-07, 02:24 AM
Major Creation, obv.


Just make sure the Shadow version you are using is more real than it should be.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-07, 02:30 AM
Major Creation, obv.


Just make sure the Shadow version you are using is more real than it should be.

With what, Black Lotus Poison?

BobVosh
2010-03-07, 03:01 AM
Summon shadow pies! Wait, wrong thread.

Anyway there is the gnome alt class feature and whatever else the deadly gnome build uses that can pump a greater shadow conj/evoc to 120% real.

Felyndiira
2010-03-07, 03:09 AM
Phantom Steed is always a nice thing to use with Shadow Conjuration. Hopefully your DM wouldn't be mean enough to rule that a shadow steed has a 80% chance of items falling through it.

Be aware, though - a shadowed greater mage armor will allow enemies attacking you to disbelieve, since by the process of attacking they're interacting with the shadowed spell. In that case, they get a will save to basically ignore 80% of your mage armor's AC, not counting spell resistance.

Sleet Storm, Grease, and all of the other conjuration spells work in a similar manner; they're all now SR:YES and allow a will save. Thus, if your enemy succeeds in their will save against grease, they now only have a 20% chance of slipping on it IF they fail their balance checks.


Major Creation, obv.

Can't do. The OP is asking for Shadow Conjuration (4th level spell), which can only duplicate a conjuration of 3rd level or lower, which major creation is not.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-07, 03:17 AM
Be aware, though - a shadowed greater mage armor will allow enemies attacking you to disbelieve, since by the process of attacking they're interacting with the shadowed spell. In that case, they get a will save to basically ignore 80% of your mage armor's AC, not counting spell resistance. Not true. It's a Shadow effect, not a Glamor effect, so people interacting with it don't get a save. Only the target gets one, which you can choose to fail.


Sleet Storm, Grease, and all of the other conjuration spells work in a similar manner; they're all now SR:YES and allow a will save. Thus, if your enemy succeeds in their will save against grease, they now only have a 20% chance of slipping on it IF they fail their balance checks. This is partially true. If they make their will save, the effect is completely negated, as a partial effect on the above spells = no effect.

So yes, it gives them an additional save. However, if their will save is crap... go for it.

Frosty
2010-03-07, 03:24 AM
Well if their Will Save is crap to begin with...then hello...Beguiler here! :smallwink:

So far I've got Create Magic tattoo (not sure what book) and Stinking Cloud and Sleet Storm. Anything else? I'm looking to shore up my lack of non-Will-targetting options really. I've got Solid Fog for BC when I get level 8 anyways.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-07, 03:26 AM
Well if their Will Save is crap to begin with...then hello...Beguiler here! :smallwink:

So far I've got Create Magic tattoo (not sure what book) and Stinking Cloud and Sleet Storm. Anything else? I'm looking to shore up my lack of non-Will-targetting options really. I've got Solid Fog for BC when I get level 8 anyways.

Anything done with Shadow Conjuration, by default, targets will, in addition to whatever. So that's not gonna help you a whole lot.

A better idea would be to go for something like Sandshaper or Rainbow Servant cheese to increase your spells known list. Maybe the feat to add a domain to your Spells Known list...

Zaq
2010-03-07, 05:06 AM
Basically, you want spells that don't offer a save. Ones that target your allies, or that work indirectly (Wall of Stone is too high-level for Shadow Conjuration, but it's a good example). If you're not targeting an enemy, you'll be ok.

Also, summon monster. Not fantastic for fighting, but still good for getting SLAs, trapspringers, or everything else that summon monster is useful for.

Felyndiira
2010-03-07, 05:41 AM
Not true. It's a Shadow effect, not a Glamor effect, so people interacting with it don't get a save. Only the target gets one, which you can choose to fail.


Any creature that interacts with the conjured object, force, or creature can make a Will save to recognize its true nature.

People interacting with it does get a save alongside the target, so a shadow (greater) mage armor would let you will save for 20% real. This extends to all spells that do not allow a save; as long as the spell requires interaction of any kind, the 20% rule applies.

Now, if their will save is horrible...

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-07, 01:23 PM
People interacting with it does get a save alongside the target, so a shadow (greater) mage armor would let you will save for 20% real. This extends to all spells that do not allow a save; as long as the spell requires interaction of any kind, the 20% rule applies.

Now, if their will save is horrible...

The problem is that they aren't being affected by it. Let's try reading from the actual description of the spell:


Spells that deal damage have normal effects unless the affected creature succeeds on a Will save. Each disbelieving creature takes only one-fifth (20%) damage from the attack. If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is only 20% likely to occur. Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow conjurationís level (4th) rather than the spellís normal level. In addition, any effect created by shadow conjuration allows spell resistance, even if the spell it is simulating does not. Shadow objects or substances have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them.

The affected creature is... the caster, who voluntarily fails his save. No one else is affected, thus they don't get a save.

Frosty
2010-03-07, 01:52 PM
I emulate a Phantom Steed! I cast it from shadows but I will keep TELLING myself that it is REAL until I stop falling through it :smallbiggrin:

On another topic, if I have only 13000 gold to spend for a Beguiler, what are some good investments? Headband of Int obviously. What else?

ericgrau
2010-03-07, 01:57 PM
I'm a big fan of Phantom Steed.

Pick utility spells like this one. Any offensive spell will have both an extra save and SR which can be a real drag. Utility spells are often weaker than others due to being situational, but now you can figure out a nice big long list of them so that the sheer number of options fixes this.

2xMachina
2010-03-07, 02:05 PM
Is there anyway to get Shadow Illusions? Like Silent Image etc. but add Shadow sub-type to it? Would be fun. Illusions that are 20% real.

Walking along a bridge, when you suddenly hear, "This bridge is a shadow illusion you know". Then you fall down like Wile E. Coyote.

Frosty
2010-03-07, 03:18 PM
Pick utility spells like this one. Any offensive spell will have both an extra save and SR which can be a real drag. Utility spells are often weaker than others due to being situational, but now you can figure out a nice big long list of them so that the sheer number of options fixes this.

Can you suggest such a list? That's the real purpose of this thread. What good conjuration ulitity spells are there that doesn't mess with the enemy?

hmm...I make a Shadowy Pass Door! I run across it but then tell you it's an illusion right when you're about to enter! *bam* Road Runner laughs. *meep meep*

Fitz10019
2010-03-07, 03:50 PM
Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor are invisible, no? Do shadow conjurations look shadowy? Would the fact that this person has semi-visible armor prompt the saving throw to disbelieve?

El Dorado
2010-03-07, 04:18 PM
Grease
Deep Breath
Unseen Servant and Servant Horde
Mount and Regal Procession
Phantom Steed
Stinking Cloud
Sleet Storm
Wall of Smoke
Mage Armor and Mass Mage Armor

Lesser Orb of X

ericgrau
2010-03-07, 05:11 PM
Can you suggest such a list? That's the real purpose of this thread. What good conjuration ulitity spells are there that doesn't mess with the enemy?

hmm...I make a Shadowy Pass Door! I run across it but then tell you it's an illusion right when you're about to enter! *bam* Road Runner laughs. *meep meep*

d20 spell filter (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20spellfilter/) to the rescue. Settings: conjuration (creation). I found the following utility items:
phantom steed
mage's faithful hound (alarm function is only reliable part)
phase door
secure shelter
unseen servant

2nd search set to conjuration (summoning):
secret chest
instant summons
mount
EDIT: summon monster I also has utility uses; maybe other higher level summons with special abilities too

IMO, mage armor would only be partially effective after someone attacks you and makes their save. You don't need to see an illusion to interact with it. But besides all that there's no point. Just cast mage armor in the morning with a much lower level spell slot. It's not like you need versatility for such a thing.

quiet1mi
2010-03-07, 05:45 PM
Servant horde stops people from charging...

shadow conjuration phantom steeds gives you the ability to move the party hundreds of miles within hours instead of weeks.

shadow conjuration summon monster 3, 1d4+1 ravens so they can aid another the party fighter for an additional +10 to hit (+2 flanking, +8 aid another when 4 of them hit AC 10)

Felyndiira
2010-03-07, 07:29 PM
The problem is that they aren't being affected by it. Let's try reading from the actual description of the spell:

The affected creature is... the caster, who voluntarily fails his save. No one else is affected, thus they don't get a save.

When a creature attacks mage armor, their attacks are affected by the fact that their attacks are being stopped by the mage armor (hence the AC boost). To say that only a creature affected by a shadow conjuration at the time of its casting leads to unfortunate complications that contradicts with the spell text.

One example is shadow summons. Now, a creature can never be affected by a summoning unless if the summoned creature was targeted to somehow deal damage upon summoning (remember: summons list no targets); instead, they are affected by the summoned creature's attacks and defense as they enter battle against it. However, the Shadow Conjuration rules specifically states rules for disbelieving shadow summons, which implies that despite not being "affected" by a shadow conjuration at the time of summoning, a target is "affected" by the conjuration as soon as he attacks it, or as soon as it attacks him.

Now, mage armor is not bull's strength; it doesn't give a flat bonus to an attribute via a transmutive effect to your body. Instead, it actually summons a coat of magical armor that blocks attacks. Thus, when someone attacks a mage, their blocks may be blocked by the mage armor; thusly, they are affected by mage armor.

The sentence that I quoted from the spell, in fact, specifically states that any interaction with the conjuration spell counts as giving the target a will save. So, unless if your definition of affected is such that somehow, interacting with something that doesn't affect the target upon casting gives a will save for no effect, I don't see how, exactly, an attacker won't get a will save for attacking mage armor.


secret chest
instant summons

I'm trying to figure out how secret chest would work in this case. Since items automatically succeed in their will saves (unattended), would they have a 40% chance to fall out of the 60% real chest? If so, would they fall to the ground, or to the ethereal plane? Same with instant summons.

ericgrau
2010-03-07, 10:53 PM
Unattended non-magical items automatically fail their saves. Yet another reason for using the spell for utility. Magic items have a save bonus equal to 2 + 1/2 the item's caster level. They get a save, or if attended the owner may use his saving throw bonus if higher.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-07, 10:53 PM
For a real headache the shadowgnome killer build can end up with shadow spells that are over 100% real.

The truth becomes more horrifying then the illusion.

Jack_Simth
2010-03-07, 11:01 PM
Unattended non-magical items automatically fail their saves. Yet another reason for using the spell for utility. Magic items have a save bonus equal to 2 + 1/2 the item's caster level. They get a save, or if attended the owner may use his saving throw bonus if higher.
Normally, that would be true. In the case of Shadow Conjuration, though, they've got a specific exception, and are always treated as having beaten the save.

Jack_Simth
2010-03-07, 11:06 PM
Basically, you want spells that don't offer a save. Ones that target your allies, or that work indirectly (Wall of Stone is too high-level for Shadow Conjuration, but it's a good example). If you're not targeting an enemy, you'll be ok.

If you think about a Greater Shadow Conjuration(Wall of Stone) too much, you'll get a headache.

It's Instant, so there's no magic there after the casting.
It looks perfectly normal from a distance.
But if someone touches it (and makes their save), it's a vague shadow inside of a transparent outline.
And someone who recognizes it for what it is has a 40% chance of being able to simply ignore it (blocking you is a non-damaging effect in most cases, is it not?).
Oh yes, and a golem can walk straight through it, uninterrupted, as the non-magical wall allows spell resistance.




Also, summon monster. Not fantastic for fighting, but still good for getting SLAs, trapspringers, or everything else that summon monster is useful for.
What it's useful for is standard action flanking for the rogue. That does a LOT of damage, and it doesn't matter if the "target" beats the save, as the 20% real shadow-beast still threatens.

ericgrau
2010-03-08, 01:20 AM
Normally, that would be true. In the case of Shadow Conjuration, though, they've got a specific exception, and are always treated as having beaten the save.

In that case...



I'm trying to figure out how secret chest would work in this case. Since items automatically succeed in their will saves (unattended), would they have a 40% chance to fall out of the 60% real chest? If so, would they fall to the ground, or to the ethereal plane? Same with instant summons.

The spell says the effects are 60% likely to occur. So 40% chance the summon fails.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-08, 01:52 AM
A few things from the SRD on spell resistance

"Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creatureís mind or body. If the spell acts on anything else and the creature is affected as a consequence, no roll is required."

"Spells that have instantaneous durations but lasting results arenít subject to spell resistance unless the resistant creature is exposed to the spell the instant it is cast."

So, no a golem can't walk through a shadowed wall of stone by virtue of its spell immunity. The rules for how SR works don't allow it. If the magic isn't acting on them directly SR doesn't apply even if the spell would

The line "In addition, any effect created by shadow conjuration allows spell resistance, even if the spell it is simulating does not." is there for stuff like cloudkill, acid arrow, orb spells and other such things that directly effect the target.
SO even with all shadow conjuration/evocation spells being subject to SR. It doesn't matter if the spell's effect is indirect. SR only applies in certain conditions if those conditions are not met no roll is made.

Now a creature could make its will save and walk through the wall, but there is no SR check unless the effect acts against them directly.

I think for a point of sensibility it might be best to treat wall of stone as a summon for the purposes of shadow magic, so it has x% the hit points and hardness rather then having a chance not to work.

Frosty
2010-03-08, 02:12 PM
If you think about a Greater Shadow Conjuration(Wall of Stone) too much, you'll get a headache.

It's Instant, so there's no magic there after the casting.
It looks perfectly normal from a distance.
But if someone touches it (and makes their save), it's a vague shadow inside of a transparent outline.
And someone who recognizes it for what it is has a 40% chance of being able to simply ignore it (blocking you is a non-damaging effect in most cases, is it not?).
Oh yes, and a golem can walk straight through it, uninterrupted, as the non-magical wall allows spell resistance.



What it's useful for is standard action flanking for the rogue. That does a LOT of damage, and it doesn't matter if the "target" beats the save, as the 20% real shadow-beast still threatens.

That's not a bad idea I guess. If the rogue is in a position to full-attack, you can ready a Shadow Conjuration to do a summon spell right before the rogue's initiative. The shadow summon pops up. It...gets an action? Then a rogue goes and get a full-round worth of SA.

kakiseirei
2010-03-08, 02:34 PM
Phantom Steed is always a nice thing to use with Shadow Conjuration. Hopefully your DM wouldn't be mean enough to rule that a shadow steed has a 80% chance of items falling through it.

It is mean, but it is valid. :smallfrown:

The argument either hinges on this:

A character faced with proof that an illusion isnít real needs no saving throwObviously the person casting the spell is given the proof that they need. The question is whether "needs no saving throw" means allow no saving throw? :smalleek:

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-08, 02:44 PM
It is mean, but it is valid. :smallfrown:

The argument either hinges on this:
Obviously the person casting the spell is given the proof that they need. The question is whether "needs no saving throw" means allow no saving throw? :smalleek:

Reading the spell phantom steed, I'd say it functions like shadow creature not an object. (its even called a creature). Thus its there 100% of the time but has only a X% of its AC bonuses and hit points.
So your fine with phantom steed.

Frosty
2010-03-08, 02:46 PM
So anyone with a composite longbow can dispel my steed? :smallconfused:

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-08, 02:53 PM
So anyone with a composite longbow can dispel my steed? :smallconfused:

In the same way anyone with a composite longbow can 'dispel' something you brought forth with summon monster yes. A phantom steed has an armor class, hit points and is referred to as a creature and not an object. Thus a shadow conjured phantom steed should act like a shadow creature not a shadowed object.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomsteed.htm

Frosty
2010-03-08, 02:58 PM
And a Dispel Magic also works right?

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-08, 03:01 PM
And a Dispel Magic also works right?
Yes
Why wouldn't it work.

Yukitsu
2010-03-08, 06:18 PM
Take invisible spell metamagic, then spam shadow conjured wall of iron that is also invisible.

See invisible will see it, true seeing doesn't, and everyone has a % chance of walking into it. It's funny when some enemies walk through, while other smack into a wall. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Then make a box for an enemy mime.

Jack_Simth
2010-03-08, 06:27 PM
That's not a bad idea I guess. If the rogue is in a position to full-attack, you can ready a Shadow Conjuration to do a summon spell right before the rogue's initiative. The shadow summon pops up. It...gets an action? Then a rogue goes and get a full-round worth of SA.
Technically? As it effectively operates like Summon Monster, The summoned shadow creature get's it's full round worth of actions in as soon as it appears.

Less of a bookkeeping headache, though, is to delay to between the beast's and the rogue's initiative - it doesn't matter how close to the rogue's init you are, as long as the shadow beast comes up after it's too late for the beast to react to its sudden appearance until after the rogue gets a full attack in. Plus, you know, if for some reason the rogue's initiative doesn't come up, well you can still take your action. Not so much with Readied Actions.

Frosty
2010-03-08, 06:39 PM
Take invisible spell metamagic, then spam shadow conjured wall of iron that is also invisible.

See invisible will see it, true seeing doesn't, and everyone has a % chance of walking into it. It's funny when some enemies walk through, while other smack into a wall. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Then make a box for an enemy mime.

Why wouldn't True Seeing detect it? :smallconfused:

Yukitsu
2010-03-08, 06:47 PM
Why wouldn't True Seeing detect it? :smallconfused:

Since it's an illusion, you see through it instead of seeing it. The text is that you see things as they truly are, and the specifics for illusions are that you see through them. As there is no wall there in truth, you can't see it with true seeing. So people with see invisibility will see it, but those with true seeing won't, and everyone has a chance of running into it, whether they believe it or not.

Raging Gene Ray
2010-03-08, 06:53 PM
Objects automatically succeed on their Will Saves. That means a sword hitting your Shadow Mage Armor automatically succeeds. So it would only provide 60% of the original armor bonus.

At least that's what I'd say. You might be able to get away with more through your DM.

Frosty
2010-03-08, 07:03 PM
So if I really wanted to do the Roadrunner effect, I should do an Invisible Greater Shadow Conjuration mimicing a Wall of Stone and then cast an Invisible Shades mimicing a Phase Door on said illusionary Wall of Stone?

And then maybe cast an Illusion of a tunnel on the wall.

Yukitsu
2010-03-08, 07:10 PM
So if I really wanted to do the Roadrunner effect, I should do an Invisible Greater Shadow Conjuration mimicing a Wall of Stone and then cast an Invisible Shades mimicing a Phase Door on said illusionary Wall of Stone?

And then maybe cast an Illusion of a tunnel on the wall.

Yeah, that would work, though as written you can do that with a real wall of stone as well.

My favourite thing to do with these things is making mazes, mixed in with real conjured walls of stone, invisible walls of real stone, illusions, invisible illusions and visible shadow conjured walls. I've gone through an entire days castings on these things just putting a maze around someones house. :smallcool:

Frosty
2010-03-08, 07:20 PM
Instead of Walls of Stones, why not use walls of mirrors instead?

Jack_Simth
2010-03-08, 08:32 PM
My favourite thing to do with these things is making mazes, mixed in with real conjured walls of stone, invisible walls of real stone, illusions, invisible illusions and visible shadow conjured walls. I've gone through an entire days castings on these things just putting a maze around someones house. :smallcool:
So... there's real walls (of stone, presumably - Iron works well too, but gets expensive), Invisible Spell real walls, Greater Shadow Conjouration walls, Invisible Spell Greater Shadow Conjouration Walls, Illusory Walls, and Invisible Spell Illusory Walls? Oh yes, and many of the real walls and shadow walls (Invisible spell or not) are covered by illusory walls (again, invisible spell or not)?

Sounds like a recepie for spamming Disintegrate. Or maybe boning up on the Acidic Splatter reserve feat.

Sounds like a rather Chaotic thing to do to someone. But then, why not just use the Hedged Prison form of Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/binding.htm)?

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-08, 10:01 PM
Objects automatically succeed on their Will Saves. That means a sword hitting your Shadow Mage Armor automatically succeeds. So it would only provide 60% of the original armor bonus.

At least that's what I'd say. You might be able to get away with more through your DM.

Sorry but no, thats not how it works you don't get to wield an object and touch shadow evocations/conjurations to test its reality. Objects only make saving throws if unattended otherwise the wielder does. The wielder of the sword interacts with the illusion if he fails his save he believes the caster is protected and the quasi-reality makes it so.

Secondly mage armor is not a creature so its AC isn't reduced by being disbelieved it simply has an X% chance to work.

Yukitsu
2010-03-08, 10:03 PM
Spam disintegration is a waste, as teleport is faster. You don't do this to casters anyway.

the binding is something that allows a save, and requires line of effect and X amount of time chanting at them where they are likely to pass at least one listen check to wake up. My method is less readily counterable in that it doesn't allow a save to avoid being put in it, and you don't have to be in his house or lurking at his window to do it.


Instead of Walls of Stones, why not use walls of mirrors instead?

Sadly, mirrors cost too much to easily and cheaply make with creation spells. However, hallucinitory terrain is a nice tack on to make it seem like they are mirrors. :smalltongue:

Jack_Simth
2010-03-08, 10:14 PM
Sorry but no, thats not how it works you don't get to wield an object and touch shadow evocations/conjurations to test its reality. Objects only make saving throws if unattended otherwise the wielder does. The wielder of the sword interacts with the illusion if he fails his save he believes the caster is protected and the quasi-reality makes it so.

I've mentioned this before in this thread, but normally, you'd be correct.

However, in the case of Shadow Conjuration, there's a specific exception built into the spell - all objects pass their saves. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm)

Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell. (it's the last line of the entry).

And yes, Disintegrate is a waste. But it's got pinache. Helps if you can use a dominated beholder / simulacrum of a beholder to clear them out for you, of course.

Draz74
2010-03-08, 11:12 PM
Since it's an illusion, you see through it instead of seeing it. The text is that you see things as they truly are, and the specifics for illusions are that you see through them. As there is no wall there in truth, you can't see it with true seeing. So people with see invisibility will see it, but those with true seeing won't, and everyone has a chance of running into it, whether they believe it or not.

I think you can still see partially-real [Shadow] illusions when you have True Seeing.

You might also see through them, i.e. have them translucent, but I think you'll know they're there.

Yukitsu
2010-03-08, 11:13 PM
I think you can still see partially-real [Shadow] illusions when you have True Seeing.

You might also see through them, i.e. have them translucent, but I think you'll know they're there.

If so, you'd see at most a shadow. If the situation is already dim, like in a giant BS maze, you'll still not see anything at all.

Also, you don't see that they are there at all for standard illusions, as you see things as they are, not see things as they are plus a little extra.

deuxhero
2010-03-08, 11:17 PM
hmm...I make a Shadowy Pass Door! I run across it but then tell you it's an illusion right when you're about to enter! *bam* Road Runner laughs. *meep meep*

That is funny


Shadow Summon Monster 3 gives you 1d4+1 aid another

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 02:23 AM
I've mentioned this before in this thread, but normally, you'd be correct.

However, in the case of Shadow Conjuration, there's a specific exception built into the spell - all objects pass their saves. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm)
(it's the last line of the entry).


Really saying a shadowed mage armor automatically fails because your attacking with an object(say a sword). Utterly ruins the point of having anyone roll a save against a non-offense shadow spell.

You expand that logic and most any shadow made object(but not creatures) can be instantly recognized as a shadow by poking it with a stick, Or simply touching it if your wearing gloves.(which would provides proof of the illusion). Does that really sound like how the spell should work.
You automatically pass through shadow walls because the objects your wielding make there saves providing you with the proof necessary to defeat the illusion.
*to be clear if you have proof of an illusion you automatically make your save*

It doesn't matter if the sword isn't effected by the illusion the wielder is so he should suffer for it. He believes an invisible but intangible field of force is protecting the caster so his attacks may be blocked simply because he believes they should.