PDA

View Full Version : Rorschach and Vetinari



Eerie
2010-03-07, 02:26 PM
Two quotes, from "Watchmen" and "Unseen Academicals".

Rorschach:


"Stood in firelight, sweltering. Bloodstain on chest like map of violent new continent. Felt cleansed. Felt dark planet turn under my feet and knew what cats know that makes them scream like babies in night. Looked at sky through smoke heavy with human fat and God was not there. The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever and we are alone. Live our lives, lacking anything better to do. Devise reason later. Born from oblivion; bear children, hell-bound as ourselves, go into oblivion. There is nothing else. Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us."

And Vetinari:


"One day I was a young boy...when I saw a mother otter with her cubs. Even as I watched, the mother otter dived into the water and came up with a plump salmon, which she subdued... As she ate it, while of course it was still alive, the body split and the pink roes spilled out much to the delight of the baby otters. Mother and children dining upon mother and children. And that is when I first learned about evil. It is build into the very nature of the universe. Every world spins in pain. If there is any kind of supreme being, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior."

It seems that, despite being vastly different characters, Walter and Havelock share very similar world-views.

Discuss.

Player_Zero
2010-03-07, 02:38 PM
I think you may be misinterpreting those quotations.

Rorschach is saying there's no real point to anything in the world, that it is completely arbitrary, but that evil is in man. And I believe Vetinari is saying that there is evil in the world so we must control it.

I don't believe the characters are particularly similar.

BRC
2010-03-07, 04:01 PM
The two quotes are actually supporting opposite worldviews.

Rorschach is saying "When Evil happens, we cannot blame in on anything but those that committed it. We have free will, therefore, if evil happens, it is because somebody chose to be evil, and for making that choice, they die".

Vetinari is saying "Evil is an inherent part of the way the world works, people get ahead by making sure other people stay behind. We cannot stop it from happening any more than we can stop a river, but we can use it, channel it, and control it to minimize the damage it causes".

You have to remember the context here. Rorshach's quote comes
after he finds this Kidnapper who kidnapped a little girl, thinking she was from a wealthy family. Upon learning she was not, the kidnapper killed her and fed her to his dogs. When Rorschach finds him, the man is actually kind of pathetic, and Rorschach sees that he's not the tool of some metaphysical force of evil. The Girl wasn't Kidnapped and Killed because "That happens sometimes, it's tragic, but it does", she was kidnapped because this guy decided to kidnap her, and she was killed because he decided to kill her.

Vetinari's quote is about him seeing a mother caring for her children, and in the process, she kills another mother and her children. It makes him realize that Evil is an inevitable by-product of life, and that trying to fight evil by stamping it out and eliminating it everywhere you can find it is both futile and unhelpful.

comicshorse
2010-03-07, 04:44 PM
The important part of the Vetinari quote to me is

If there is any kind of supreme being, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior."

The world may be designed to be evil but that doesn't mean we have to be. In fact in the face of this evil it is our duty to rise above it and become better than the world


Rosarch's world view seems more simply. The world is evil because we make it that way. So there is nothing to lose. Do what you want, the world is evil and there is no retribution awaiting us

BRC
2010-03-07, 05:26 PM
The important part of the Vetinari quote to me is


The world may be designed to be evil but that doesn't mean we have to be. In fact in the face of this evil it is our duty to rise above it and become better than the world


Rosarch's world view seems more simply. The world is evil because we make it that way. So there is nothing to lose. Do what you want, the world is evil and there is no retribution awaiting us
I agree with your opinion about Vetinari's quote somewhat, but I disagree with your interpretation of Rorschach. Vetinari is saying the World is evil, therefore people must be good. Rorschach is saying that there is nothing out their influencing the course of events, if you want something to happen, you must do it yourself, you can't trust that things will turn out alright. That's why he refuses to retire, because he dosn't trust that taking criminals and putting them in jail will turn them into good men. He DOES trust that killing them will stop them from doing more evil though.

hamishspence
2010-03-08, 08:34 AM
Vetinari's has a bit more hope in it, than his previous:

"there aren't good people and bad people- there are only bad people on different sides" statement in Guards! Guards!

In Unseen Academicals, by contrast, his statement seems like it's suggesting that to become morally better, is the ideal.

Thufir
2010-03-08, 08:56 AM
Vetinari's has a bit more hope in it, than his previous:

"there aren't good people and bad people- there are only bad people on different sides" statement in Guards! Guards!

In Unseen Academicals, by contrast, his statement seems like it's suggesting that to become morally better, is the ideal.

Well, the character of Vetinari has changed a bit since Guards! Guards! Any apparent inconsistencies this may lead to can be explained by the uncertainty principle. Or maybe the trousers of time (Not that Time actually wears trousers).

hamishspence
2010-03-08, 09:19 AM
And he changed a lot more than that, between The Colour of Magic, and Guards! Guards!.

Character development might cover some of the change. Vimes and Carrot change, so its not impossible Vetinari might, as well.

Thufir
2010-03-08, 09:47 AM
And he changed a lot more than that, between The Colour of Magic, and Guards! Guards!.

Character development might cover some of the change. Vimes and Carrot change, so its not impossible Vetinari might, as well.

It doesn't so much cover the fact he recounts a childhood memory which apparently set him onto his present world-view, despite happening before Colour of Magic and Guards! Guards!, in which he seems to have different views. Uncertainty principle, alternative pasts, etc.

hamishspence
2010-03-08, 09:52 AM
or, he's just more outspoken than he used to be.

When talking to Vimes, the city hadn't changed much.

Now, a lot of time has gone by, the Watch is much more powerful, and so on.

Alternative pasts covers COM- but the Guards! Guards! Vetinari is much more like the present one- if a little grimmer.

Now, he seems more jovial, affable, etc- to a point.

Brother Oni
2010-03-08, 10:07 AM
Or maybe the trousers of time (Not that Time actually wears trousers).

Of course she doesn't, she wears a skirt.

Her son does though.:smallbiggrin:

Dervag
2010-03-08, 11:05 AM
I agree with your opinion about Vetinari's quote somewhat, but I disagree with your interpretation of Rorschach. Vetinari is saying the World is evil, therefore people must be good.If by "must" you mean "ought to be," yes. If by "must" you mean "are," no.

Vetinari has a very cynical view of human nature. The great challenge of his life, the reason he took the job of Patrician in the first place, is the struggle to build a decent civilization out of flawed people, the best of whom are limited and the worst of whom are... to call them scum would be an insult to scum.

Rorschach doesn't even care about that anymore. He just tracks down the scummiest scum he can find and pours bleach all over it.


It doesn't so much cover the fact he recounts a childhood memory which apparently set him onto his present world-view, despite happening before Colour of Magic and Guards! Guards!, in which he seems to have different views. Uncertainty principle, alternative pasts, etc.At a guess:

His childhood memories are fixed, but as he grows and changes as a man the way he interprets those memories may also grow and change. Real people don't always remember their own opinions accurately, because they tend to project their current motives onto their past self.


Of course she doesn't, she wears a skirt.

Her son does though.:smallbiggrin:Who is to say that she cannot wear trousers? I'm not going to argue with her.

Did the wise man not say "never get into an arse-kicking contest with a porcupine?"

hamishspence
2010-03-08, 11:14 AM
Vetinari has a very cynical view of human nature. The great challenge of his life, the reason he took the job of Patrician in the first place, is the struggle to build a decent civilization out of flawed people, the best of whom are limited and the worst of whom are... to call them scum would be an insult to scum.

Seems like a reasonable hypothesis. We don't see much of his early years written in the modern style- only Night Watch.

In that, the young Vetinari seems to have the potential to be that sort of person- but its not clear for certain.

Maybe it was this period that helped shape his opinion of the way the world should be? "Keel" and the Republic of Treacle Mine Road?

BRC
2010-03-08, 11:29 AM
If by "must" you mean "ought to be," yes. If by "must" you mean "are," no.

Vetinari has a very cynical view of human nature. The great challenge of his life, the reason he took the job of Patrician in the first place, is the struggle to build a decent civilization out of flawed people, the best of whom are limited and the worst of whom are... to call them scum would be an insult to scum.

Rorschach doesn't even care about that anymore. He just tracks down the scummiest scum he can find and pours bleach all over it.

I mean Must as in "Should".
Vetinari has no doubt that there are evil people in the world.

As for the influence of the Revolution on Vetinari, consider his current stance. Vetinari's philosophy is that, when it comes to running a society, Stability is key. People say they want truth, justice, and freedom, but what they really want is for tomorrow to go more or less like today went. They want to be sure that when they wake up tommorow they will have 3 meals and all their stuff, "The little wheels must turn so the big cogs can spin".

Remember that "Keel" controlled a quarter of the city without using any rhetoric besides "We will keep you safe". He ignored the big institutions and held into the little places that keep society running. Elsewhere it was chaos, but in Treacle Mine Road things were orderly, because Keel was appealing to the universal motivation, holding on to what you have.


I think Vetinari saw that, and used it. He stays in power because anybody powerful enough to kill him/have him killed, isn't sure they would benefit from his death, and none of them want to risk it. He controls the city not with secret police and threats to throw people in jail, but with clerks and threats that they will look in your books. He does not consider himself a ruler, but a facilitator, merely ensuring that the city runs smoothly. Also, he ordered that all mimes be thrown in the scorpion pit with a sign that says "LEARN THE WORDS", but it's not like he's a perfect ruler, but he's perhaps the perfect ruler for Anhk-Morpork.

TengYt
2010-03-08, 11:53 AM
"Rorschach and Vetinari! They make a great teaaaam!"

Thufir
2010-03-08, 12:14 PM
As for the influence of the Revolution on Vetinari, consider his current stance. Vetinari's philosophy is that, when it comes to running a society, Stability is key. People say they want truth, justice, and freedom, but what they really want is for tomorrow to go more or less like today went. They want to be sure that when they wake up tommorow they will have 3 meals and all their stuff, "The little wheels must turn so the big cogs can spin".

Remember that "Keel" controlled a quarter of the city without using any rhetoric besides "We will keep you safe". He ignored the big institutions and held into the little places that keep society running. Elsewhere it was chaos, but in Treacle Mine Road things were orderly, because Keel was appealing to the universal motivation, holding on to what you have.

Of course this may now be a bit of a loop, since in the rewritten history, Keel was actually Vimes, who learned some of how to manage people from Vetinari...

Eerie
2010-03-08, 02:05 PM
Of course this may now be a bit of a loop, since in the rewritten history, Keel was actually Vimes, who learned some of how to manage people from Vetinari...

No. Keel was not Vimes.

According to Lu-Tze, it was just two versions of the history. Keel did it, then Vimes from the future did it.

Thufir
2010-03-08, 02:15 PM
No. Keel was not Vimes.

According to Lu-Tze, it was just two versions of the history. Keel did it, then Vimes from the future did it.

Um... you appear to be missing the point of what I said:


Of course this may now be a bit of a loop, since in the rewritten history, Keel was actually Vimes, who learned some of how to manage people from Vetinari...

Yes, originally Keel did it. Then history got rewritten, with the position of Keel being taken by Vimes. "Keel was actually Vimes," refers to the second version of history.

Eerie
2010-03-08, 04:29 PM
What I mean is, the memories Vimes have are those of the first Glorious republic and the real Keel. He never met his older self.

Thufir
2010-03-08, 04:32 PM
What I mean is, the memories Vimes have are those of the first Glorious republic and the real Keel. He never met his older self.

I know. But that has nothing to do with what I said. I never said Vimes met his older self.

Hazyshade
2010-03-08, 05:29 PM
I expect you're both right.