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Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-08, 01:02 AM
About three months ago I was introduced to D&D 3.5. The class that sounded the most interesting for me was the Monk (though by its description, it would take some work to make a good pc). I then took it a step further with the vow of poverty from the Book of Exalted Deeds. After that I saw the dragonborn description on RoTD and decided to switch. Since the metallic scales were in my original character description (courtesy of my DM) my main problem is the 100gp needed for the Rite of Rebirth conflicting with my vow of poverty.

Now at level 2 and still a human, I need advice on how to become dragonborn without breaking my vow of poverty and what to do afterwards to get the best results and avoid unnecessary conflicts again.

Please remember to dumb down responses, just about our entire party, including the DM, started D&D within this last year, so nothing to outrageously complex plz

Keld Denar
2010-03-08, 01:25 AM
My best suggestion to you? See if you can get your DM to let you drop VoP. VoP is BAD, and even worse with a monk. Seriously, google it or search these forums for 10001 reasons why. Shouldn't take long, and will be very very very educational.

Other than that, there is no way to get both. VoP has very specific rules about even "borrowing" an item, even just to use. If the world was ending unless you used Magical Widget of Doom to close the portal to hell, you'd pretty much have to choose between mortal life as you know it, and all of the the bonuses you get from that exalted feat, including all of the bonus exalted feats you get from it.

Its lame.

Malificus
2010-03-08, 01:31 AM
If the world was ending unless you used Magical Widget of Doom to close the portal to hell, you'd pretty much have to choose between mortal life as you know it, and all of the the bonuses you get from that exalted feat, including all of the bonus exalted feats you get from it.

Though, being a good character, that shouldn't really even be a choice.

urbanpirate
2010-03-08, 01:38 AM
most of vop benifits are retroactive. get dragonborn first. then take vop

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2010-03-08, 01:51 AM
Don't take VoP. Ever. I can't think of any situation (and I can process seventeen-octillion situations both hypothetical and what I can only call hyperthetical over the span of lunch) where VoP is useful. Being a monk can already hurt if you're not aware of what you're capable of getting away with, VoP just hurts too much. It's not even worth it if you couldn't have possessions to begin with!

Pluto
2010-03-08, 03:03 AM
Having 100 gp stand between you and the rite of passage is lame. If your DM let you have the scales, see if you can also just do the ceremony. You're a VoP monk after all -- it would hardly be game-breaking.


Don't take VoP. Ever. I can't think of any situation (and I can process seventeen-octillion situations both hypothetical and what I can only call hyperthetical over the span of lunch) where VoP is useful. Being a monk can already hurt if you're not aware of what you're capable of getting away with, VoP just hurts too much. It's not even worth it if you couldn't have possessions to begin with!
I played in a group once where the only magic items we ever found were swords and armor. No one in the group was proficient with any of them.
Does that count? :smalltongue:

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2010-03-08, 03:06 AM
I played in a group once where the only magic items we ever found were swords and armor. No one in the group was proficient with any of them.
Does that count? :smalltongue:
I have actually played in such a situation. I played with a DM who was so incompetent, so stuck in the mindset that he was playing AGAINST us, that we were only getting 1/5th of what you can survive on for loot, but because we could sell everything we weren't using VoP STILL wouldn't have helped us.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-08, 03:24 AM
complaint about VOP
I just looked over the benefits of VOP and compared them to magic items in the SRD.

You can get pretty much everything VOP gives you by level 20 in magic items and even if you somehow spend 50,000 GP on consumables you still have about 190,000 GP left. Here are the nice things about this method.

The resistances you get are better.(20 instead of 15. heck go for 10 on the resistances and you get an extra 120,000 GP to spend)
the stat boosts are better. you can get 4 +6s instead of a +8 a +6, a +4 and a +2
you don't lose the boosts permanently if you ever commit an evil act.

Granted, I can't seem to find something that makes your alignment undetectable, that gives you Damage reduction 10, something that gives you 11 exalted feats (Not good anyways) or DR10/evil (not going to matter at level 20) but you have around 190,000 GP left. around 310,000 if you skip out on the resistances.

(this is of course assuming WBL is followed)

In response to your question though, just ask your DM. he should allow it.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-08, 06:13 AM
Or you could just use 20xp instead of 100gp. Seriously, this is something that BoED suggests in these types of situations anyway. It's right on page 30 under "other ramifications of poverty." I grant you that their example is talking about spells with expensive components, but I think this falls in the same kinda territory, really.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-08, 06:46 AM
Or you could just use 20xp instead of 100gp. Seriously, this is something that BoED suggests in these types of situations anyway. It's right on page 30 under "other ramifications of poverty." I grant you that their example is talking about spells with expensive components, but I think this falls in the same kinda territory, really.

An interesting idea, unfortunately though must squander my xp since my party is a bunch of pansies that decided to leave a dungeon because of a cave full of imps in the way and a glop of acidic fungus that killed our druid. I was thinking more along the lines of if and when we finally got any loot, at the time when the other party players gained a total of 100gp more than they would have hadn't I taken the vop, I would merely ask for their "assistance" in the construction, thus I would never "own" the money, it would have just been used to my benefit.:smallbiggrin:

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-08, 07:24 AM
Also, since I'm interested in eventually taking the Diciple of the Eye prestige class for its benefits, when should I stop leveling monk and begin with the prestige class?

Quietus
2010-03-08, 07:45 AM
The problem with all the "Don't take VoP" advice is that this is from a specifically optimizational outlook. If your group isn't particularly high powered, there is nothing wrong with it, PARTICULARLY if you have casters in the group that might be willing to throw the occasional Fly spell your way.

Beyond that, if you want to take the Dragonborn rites, just ask your DM. Work with him, suggest the 20 exp deal - 5 gold for 1 experience is the standard exchange rate. Or make it a quest, every DM I know loves plot hooks! "If you do this for me/promise to follow me/thanks for donating to our church!"

Hell, you're SUPPOSED to be taking your share of treasure and donating it anyway. If you're donating it to the church of Bahamut (or other similarly Good deity who would give you such a blessing), perhaps they might approach you with the opportunity to become a greater defender of their faith, by "marking you as chosen".

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-08, 07:57 AM
VoP on a druid w/o wilding clasps is nice...

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-08, 10:10 PM
Unfortunately, advising the OP not to take VoP is a useless piece of advice in this case, since the character's already in play and he already took the feat. If that weren't the case I'd've advised against it myself, since VoP is a terribad feat for monks.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-08, 10:30 PM
I played in a group once where the only magic items we ever found were swords and armor. No one in the group was proficient with any of them.
Does that count? :smalltongue:

In those cases it's considered fair game to play an Artificer.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-08, 11:41 PM
I am confused as too what exactly makes the Vop so bad, at least for monks or durids. As far as I can tell, it is mainly the inability to wield powerful items at higher levels (as in mid-teen to epic levels). I thought this portion of the Vop more than made up for that loss:

Ability Score Enhancement (EX): At 7th level, an ascetic gains a +2 enhancement bonus to one ability score. At 11th, he gains an extra +2 bonus to that score, and a +2 bonus to another ability score. At 15th level, he gains an extra +2 bonus to those two scores, and a +2 bonus to a third ability score. At 19th level, he gains an extra +2 bonus to those three scores, and a +2 bonus to a fourth ability score.

Also, I've heard that monks with a Vop have little hope of any worthwhile ranged weaponry. In answer to that, I give you the breath weapon of the Dragonborn, coupled with the future feats of Dragon Wings, improved Dragon wings, flybyattack, wing expert, sanctify Ki strike, and Holy Ki strike (not necessarily in that order).

Mystic Muse
2010-03-08, 11:56 PM
I am confused as too what exactly makes the Vop so bad, at least for monks or durids. As far as I can tell, it is mainly the inability to wield powerful items at higher levels (as in mid-teen to epic levels). I thought this portion of the Vop more than made up for that loss:

Ability Score Enhancement (EX): At 7th level, an ascetic gains a +2 enhancement bonus to one ability score. At 11th, he gains an extra +2 bonus to that score, and a +2 bonus to another ability score. At 15th level, he gains an extra +2 bonus to those two scores, and a +2 bonus to a third ability score. At 19th level, he gains an extra +2 bonus to those three scores, and a +2 bonus to a fourth ability score.

Also, I've heard that monks with a Vop have little hope of any worthwhile ranged weaponry. In answer to that, I give you the breath weapon of the Dragonborn, coupled with the future feats of Dragon Wings, improved Dragon wings, flybyattack, wing expert, sanctify Ki strike, and Holy Ki strike (not necessarily in that order).

A. some people won't want to worship/Dedicate their lives to Bahamut by being a dragonborn. These people are screwed.
B. Dragon wings is a first level feat.
C. you have six feats there. Short of flaws or bonus feats of some such you only get 7 feats so your guy has to be at least level 15.
D. instead of a +8+6+4 and a +2 a character can spend 144,000 on items that boost four stats +6. This isn't that much at level 19.
E. you don't lose the benefits of these items forever once you do one evil deed.:smalltongue:

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-09, 12:50 AM
In response to A., I can take Dragon wings even though its a first level feat by switching a feat that isn't a prerequisite for another feat for a first level only feat upon becoming a dragonborn. See the mechanics of rebirth page 10 of RoTD.

To go off topic a little, when its says a Dragonborn may make a breath attack every 1D4 rounds, is that rolled with say initiative and then kept throughout battle or is it redetermined after every usage? Also, what's the point in getting to level 20 monk and becoming pretty much an outsider when I get that from the vow of poverty a lot earlier?

Mystic Muse
2010-03-09, 12:53 AM
In response to A., I can take Dragon wings even though its a first level feat by switching a feat that isn't a prerequisite for another feat for a first level only feat upon becoming a dragonborn. See the mechanics of rebirth page 10 of RoTD.


I'm aware. Just making sure that you weren't thinking of taking it 3 level after you've already become a Dragonborn.

in response to your question, VOP was made AFTER Monks.:smalltongue:

Pluto
2010-03-09, 01:17 AM
Also, what's the point in getting to level 20 monk and becoming pretty much an outsider when I get that from the vow of poverty a lot earlier?Not much. Multiclassing into just about anything will do you better than taking the last 9 levels.

(Or the last 18 levels, for that matter)

Even just 9 levels Cleric could get you free movement, flight and teleports to solve the VoP Monk's biggest woes.

Sophismata
2010-03-09, 01:45 AM
Even just 9 levels Cleric could get you free movement, flight and teleports to solve the VoP Monk's biggest woes.

No divine focus for a VoP character.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-11, 03:58 PM
Ignoring the debate on VoP, someone please tell me wether I may make a flyby attack using my breath weapon while remaing out of range of enemies on the ground. This includes flying higher if need be to avoid larger enemies in the line. Also, how far may I make a flybyattack?

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-11, 06:53 PM
Ignoring the debate on VoP, someone please tell me wether I may make a flyby attack using my breath weapon while remaing out of range of enemies on the ground. This includes flying higher if need be to avoid larger enemies in the line. Also, how far may I make a flybyattack?

Flyby attack's rules say that you make one standard action during your move action. Say you have a fly speed of 30ft, you could move 10ft, breath, then move the other 20ft, or you could fly 15ft on either side of the breath, as long as your total distance moved is equal to your movement speed you can fire off the breath at any point along your path. Note that you can use any standard action, not just your breath weapon.

Edit: don't bother with improved flyby attack, it's just spring attack that's limited to fliers.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-11, 11:31 PM
[QUOTE=Kelb_Panthera;8059147]Flyby attack's rules say that you make one standard action during your move action. Say you have a fly speed of 30ft, you could move 10ft, breath, then move the other 20ft, or you could fly 15ft on either side of the breath, as long as your total distance moved is equal to your movement speed you can fire off the breath at any point along your path. Note that you can use any standard action, not just your breath weapon.

So I can only attack one enemy during a flyby attack , say with a flurry of blows? Or can I attack multiple enemies along the way?

Mystic Muse
2010-03-11, 11:38 PM
Flurry of blows is a full round action. you can't move and then use it. This is one of the many criticisms of the monk.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-12, 12:22 AM
So I can only attack one enemy during a flyby attack , say with a flurry of blows? Or can I attack multiple enemies along the way?

If you use your standard action for a normal attack then you'd be limited to one target, but your breath weapon is an AoE so you can affect as many targets as you can fit in its area, though determining the area affected if you fire at opponents on the ground requires a little geometry :smalltongue: A common choice for the standard action you get with flyby attack is the multishot family of feats since they let you fire more than one attack as a standard action, particularly greater multishot since it can target several enemies regardless of their positions relative to each other.

Flickerdart
2010-03-12, 12:29 AM
You may only attack one enemy, and only once (standard, not full attack, action). Rapid Blitz and Bounding Assault are late-game feats that increase the number of attacks you can make (up to three, at increasingly lower BAB).

However, the Great Flyby Attack feat from SS lets you make an attack against every enemy in range when you fly by. Using a reach weapon, this is awesome, especially with size increases. For your purposes, however...not so much.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-12, 12:34 AM
If you use your standard action for a normal attack then you'd be limited to one target, but your breath weapon is an AoE so you can affect as many targets as you can fit in its area, though determining the area affected if you fire at opponents on the ground requires a little geometry :smalltongue: A common choice for the standard action you get with flyby attack is the multishot family of feats since they let you fire more than one attack as a standard action, particularly greater multishot since it can target several enemies regardless of their positions relative to each other.

So Basically flyby attack creates attacks of opportunity for the enemy, while not even letting me attack more than one with even one of the best parts of being a monk, aka, flurry of blows. In essence, Spreading Breath and Extend Spreading Breath [MetaBreath] is by far superior feats to accomplish the same and more. While on the topic, if an Extend Spreading Breath was used in a narrow passageway, say 5-foot wide, would not the spread radius change due to its confinement?

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-12, 01:23 AM
On the spreading breath quesiton: unfortunately, no. That's how it used to work, but in 3ed they changed it for ease of play.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-12, 06:57 PM
Ok, so since flyby-attack has been identified as a sucky feat, what feats should I take to optimize my flying combat other than hover or wingover, those are givens. Second, there is a feat in the Draconomicon called improved manueverability, why do I care about how manueverable I am?

Flickerdart
2010-03-12, 07:03 PM
If you have Good maneuverability, then you don't stall; if you have Perfect, you won't need Hover or Wingover because you can do those innately. Perfect flight maneuverability is awesome.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-12, 11:05 PM
If you have Good maneuverability, then you don't stall; if you have Perfect, you won't need Hover or Wingover because you can do those innately. Perfect flight maneuverability is awesome.

Since I am a medium creature, how many Improved Maneuverability feats will I need to obtain perfect maneuverability?

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-12, 11:07 PM
Also, since improved Maneuverability requires a fly speed of 150 + Hover or Wingover, how does one get one's ply speed so high?

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-12, 11:11 PM
Also, since improved Maneuverability requires a fly speed of 150 + Hover or Wingover, how does one get one's ply speed so high?

Bear in mind that these feats were printed in the monster manual as feats to be taken by creatures that don't necessarily make good PC's. I'm sure somebody here knows how to get a fly speed that high, but it'd probably suck up most of your build to do it. Improved maneuverability was likely intended for dragons and the like who already have extreme fly speeds.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-12, 11:28 PM
Bear in mind that these feats were printed in the monster manual as feats to be taken by creatures that don't necessarily make good PC's. I'm sure somebody here knows how to get a fly speed that high, but it'd probably suck up most of your build to do it. Improved maneuverability was likely intended for dragons and the like who already have extreme fly speeds.

So basically get the hover and wingover feats, and maybe power dive to go with; then focus like mad on metabreath weaponry

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-13, 11:23 PM
Here's a question that's been bugging me lately, since taking the "heart" of a dragon gives me the breath-abilities of a dragon, if I were to choose fire, would my breath weapon have a chance of setting the target(s) on fire. The same goes for ice breath weapons.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-13, 11:29 PM
Unfortunately no. Unless the ability explicitly gives a chance of setting things on fire/freezing things, it doesn't. Though one could say that that's what clinging breath represents.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-14, 12:12 AM
Bummer, well then on another note, power dive says that it can only be done on creatures smaller than me. Is there anyway to temporarily/permanently grow a size category with out the use of a spell? (I don't want to be dependant on the party's spellcasters for one of my feats to work)

Mystic Muse
2010-03-14, 12:13 AM
potion of enlarge potion?

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-14, 12:15 AM
Bummer, well then on another note, power dive says that it can only be done on creatures smaller than me. Is there anyway to temporarily/permanently grow a size category with out the use of a spell? (I don't want to be dependant on the party's spellcasters for one of my feats to work)

Enlarge person can be made permanent through the permanency spell, but that'd be vulnerable to dispelling.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-14, 12:17 AM
potion of enlarge potion?

I'm not sure Vop allows me to use that...

Mystic Muse
2010-03-14, 12:19 AM
I'm not sure Vop allows me to use that...

forgot about that.

also, I meant enlarge person. there are no potions of enlarge potion.:smallbiggrin:

Soranar
2010-03-14, 12:56 AM
There are very few builds that work well with VoP.

A straight monk is rather terrible. And that's without using VoP, with it I just don't see how to optimize it well.

Now you do have options, just don't go straight monk.

1rst of all, if you play a dragonborn human, you lose all the human bonuses (except the any favored class part) so don't count on the extra feat and the extra skillpoints. You should really consider playing another race, to get better stats at least (you get to keep those).

2nd, if you pick the breath weapon aspect of dragonborn, you don't get wings so you need to spend a feat on getting them. Thing is this is really subpar. Wings are good, wasting feats on them isn't. Breath weapons are not so good, wasting feats on them is can make them ok, unless you play a feat starved build (which you do).

You play a MAD character, without multiple magic items, so you have to find a way around that.

That means reducing your need of multiple stats.

There are a couple of ways to do that. Dex is not important if you play in armor. Str and Dex can be ignored if you wildshape.

Either of those can be achieved with multiclassing feats (ascetic knight, ascetic hunter). Those make you use Paladin levels or Ranger levels (with the wildshape variant from Unearthed Arcana).

Still, I'll try to help with your restrictions so I'll stick with human.

Try this build.

Race: Human
Alignment: Lawful Good
Deity: Bahamut

template: Dragonborn of Bahamut (take the wing aspect for flight, forget the breath)

STATS (32 pts buy)

STR 14 (main stat)
DEX 14 (as much as you need in armor, so never pump it again)
CON 16 (2nd stat)
INT 8 (dump, with nymph's kiss not that needed)
WIS 8 (not needed in armor, dump)
CHA 16 (useful for saves so 3rd stat)

you should take alternate class features

Monk: Stunning fist doesn't work on too many things to be reliable, deflect arrow is downright useless most of the time. I recommend passive way as you get 3 bonus feats for free (instead of bad ones) which you'd normally not qualify for (they require Int). And tripping is really good.

Paladin: You won't take enough to cast spells, only useful for armor, turn undead and Charisma to saves. So you can trade your spellcasting for an extra feat at level 4, 8, 11, 14 (from Complete Champion). The ones you're allowed is limited but you can take power attack which you would need.

Since you're dragonblooded you can trade heavy armor proficiency for dragon husk (basically thick skin). It's not a possession, gives you 6 AC (with +2 max dex and it improves by 1 every 3 levels. After level 12 you can pick other bonuses on top of the AC. (found in Dragon Magic)

1 Monk sacred vow
2 Paladin
3 Paladin vow of poverty nymph's kiss
4 Paladin
5 Paladin touch of golden ice
6 Paladin Ascetic Knight (Paladin and monk stack for unarmed damage and smite damage) bonus feat: power attack
7 Paladin resounding blow
8 Paladin
9 Paladin Travel Devotion bonus feat: divine might Quell the Profane

Your AC is surprisingly high, you get decent damage from unarmed strike, high saves, and travel devotion works with your turn undead from paladin so you can get all your attacks on a charge.

For further optimization, switch to dwarf and take the feat hammerfist for 1.5 time your strength on damage. You can't flurry in armor so hammerfist is worth it. And dragonhusk counts as medium armor.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-14, 01:47 AM
First, what you say about the playing as another race sounds like a good idea indeed, yet I don't think that's going to be an option seeing as I'm about to advance to level 3.

Second, I fail to see the downside to breath weaponry; at third lvl it deals 2d8 damage with a reflex save of 10 + 1/2 racial hit die + consitution modifier. Our DM had us roll d20's for all our stats, so I ended up with a 20 in my constitution. With a few metabreath feats and higher levels, it could really do some damage.

Next, since monks are without multiple magic items, Vop fits perfectly with that to give me bonuses in stats quickly while also allowing my party (and charity of course) to benefit from increased treasure shares. Although it isn't what I had quite in mind, a pure monk with Vop still gets some powerful Fort, Ref, and Will saves while obtaining a rather large AC. How does this = terrible?
I would also not lose the opportunity to make Flurry of Blows worthwhile.

Next, what is so great about the flight? Dragon Wings + Improved Dragon Wings + Hover (and then possibly wingover) pretty much cover the basics. Most other flying feats I have seen honestly sucked and require a waste in time and effort to optimize my character towards flying when it can't even effect as many enemies in as powerful a way as a Breath Weapon does by then. (Don't forget that with natural and Vop stat increases, my constitution modifier will go up quickly, allowing me to stay level with stronger creatures as we go).

What is the need for really great flying when with a breath weapon I can attack multiple enemies at once, allowing me an easier time of killing them and also for the rest of the party.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-14, 01:48 AM
While on that train of thought though, how does one take the range of a line breath attack and determine the spread of a conical breath attack when using the shape breath feat?

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-14, 02:06 AM
I don't have my Draconomicon in front of me, but if shape breath doesn't say anything about a change in range, the range doesn't change. I'm afraid you're mistaken about monks not needing magic items in normal play. The magic items they prioritize are different, but they still need just as much magical gear as anyone else. It's precisely because of this difference in magical item needs that VoP is a terri-bad feat for a monk. I won't go into the details, because I'm sure someone else will detail them better than I could. From the standpoint of strong optimization, VoP is a sub-par feat anyway, especially if your DM holds you tightly to RAW (rules as written.) For one thing, your party isn't supposed to be getting extra treasure, the section of BoED that describes how the voluntary poverty works says that the share that would go to you, should go instead to the charity of your choice, or that the DM should simply drop the treasure given so that "your share" doesn't exist at all. For another thing, if you ever willingly break that vow, you permanently lose it and all of its benefits forever. You also lose its benefits if you ever cease to meet the requirements of Exalted status until you meet those requirements once more. In either case you're left with nothing but your class abilities, which will not be up to the challenge of facing enemies of your level, no matter how well you've rolled your stats or optimized your regular feats. Don't get me wrong, the fluff makes perfect sense, but the crunch will leave you hurting something fierce. As for flight, you're talking about dropping 3 of your feats, when by 20th level you'll only have 7 that aren't granted by either class features or your vow. You really should choose either the breath weapon or flight, if you try to do both, you're not going to be terribly good at either. My personal opinion on that one: don't buy into the hype, flying is over-rated and if your wizard's worth his salt, he'll pick up mass-fly by the time it starts to become a real problem anyway.

The Glyphstone
2010-03-14, 02:21 AM
While on that train of thought though, how does one take the range of a line breath attack and determine the spread of a conical breath attack when using the shape breath feat?

It's not that breath is bad, it's that flight is Awesome. If you intend to be playing at higher levels (10+), flight is almost essential. At 15+, flight is absolutely mandatory...and the Wings aspect gets them for free. Feats are valuable, and it'd cost 3 of them to get effective flight capabilities. Breath weapon is just damage, and something you can't do while opening up a can of Kung Fu Dragon(born) on your enemies.

Go with Wings, and if you really really want a breath weapon, dip Dragon Shaman or Dragonfire Adept.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-14, 02:49 AM
Go with Wings, and if you really really want a breath weapon, dip Dragon Shaman or Dragonfire Adept.

I see what you are saying, but I am really trying to avoid multiclassing because of the loss of opportunities for the Monk. Besides, as it has been pointed out, if I were to ever lose my Vop bonuses, I would be severely weakened, leaving me to my natural combat prowess as a Monk and anything else I can use to damage foes before they murder me. Thus by taking Dragon wings and then Improved Dragon Wings at levels 3 and 6, the flight necessities you mentioned above will be taken care of, leaving the rest of my feats open to maximize the damage I can do with a breath weapon in case of any such misfortune befalling me.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-14, 04:14 AM
I hate to be this negative, but this needs to be said. If you ever lose VoP for willfully violating the vow, you will suddenly need thousands of GP worth of gear to have even a decent chance of survival once you reach level 7 or so, and you will not be able to meaningfully contribute to combat situations. If you permanently lose VoP, it's time to roll up a new character. Again, I'd like to point out that I consider myself a proponent of both the monk class and the VoP feat, but no good can come of putting them together in any but the least optimized of games, and it's dodgy even then.

lord_khaine
2010-03-14, 04:29 AM
I certainly disagree about that, in a lowlevel game like that, without highgrade optimisation, a VoP monk is a actualy a good choice, since its powers of survival will help compensate for for lacking experience.

Still, if there isnt any specific reason for why you are so focused on improving your flying maneuverbility, then i would recomend you just stop after getting flying, that will be enough to close in on annoying flying opponents.

I would recomend you instead focus a bit on improving your close combat potential, by getting feats like touch of golden ice, holy strike or improved natural attack.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-14, 10:18 AM
I hate to be this negative, but this needs to be said. If you ever lose VoP for willfully violating the vow, you will suddenly need thousands of GP worth of gear to have even a decent chance of survival once you reach level 7 or so, and you will not be able to meaningfully contribute to combat situations. If you permanently lose VoP, it's time to roll up a new character. Again, I'd like to point out that I consider myself a proponent of both the monk class and the VoP feat, but no good can come of putting them together in any but the least optimized of games, and it's dodgy even then.

This is most definitely true, which is why I am making a point on never forgetting about my vow. It has even become somewhat of a running gag with the rest of the party, so I will not be willingly breaking my Vop so easily. Besides, I'm hoping this party will make it all the way to epic levels, because the Epic Vow of Poverty is definitely worth the wait. Here's the website source for anyone that doesn't know about the Epic Vop.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19530250/Epic_Vow_of_Poverty_%28feat_version%29

The Glyphstone
2010-03-14, 01:07 PM
There's at least half a dozen versions of the Epic VoP, since they're all Homebrew. Getting DvR0 at level 40 is a nice touch, though you have to live till level 40, and everything else scales horribly as usual.

I still personally think that you're going the wrong way by getting flight via Feats and using your Dragonborn source on Breath - as mentioned, you only get 7 feats pre-epic, and since you have no wealth, your feats are the most valuable resource you have - 3/7 is almost half of your total options for something a melee character needs as a basic requirement. You could, instead, get Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick, and Improved Natural Attack instead, giving you an extra attack and improving all your attacks by 1-2 die sizes (your primary damage source, since it's hard to Power Attack effectively on a Monk's BAB). You're hosed if you lose VoP, but (Monk+Wings+High Unarmed Damage-VoP) is less hosed than (Monk+Wings+Low/medium Unarmed Damage+Low/medium Breath weapon-VoP), because it's better to have one very effective attack than two mediocre ones.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-14, 01:45 PM
There's at least half a dozen versions of the Epic VoP, since they're all Homebrew. Getting DvR0 at level 40 is a nice touch, though you have to live till level 40, and everything else scales horribly as usual.

I still personally think that you're going the wrong way by getting flight via Feats and using your Dragonborn source on Breath - as mentioned, you only get 7 feats pre-epic, and since you have no wealth, your feats are the most valuable resource you have - 3/7 is almost half of your total options for something a melee character needs as a basic requirement. You could, instead, get Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick, and Improved Natural Attack instead, giving you an extra attack and improving all your attacks by 1-2 die sizes (your primary damage source, since it's hard to Power Attack effectively on a Monk's BAB). You're hosed if you lose VoP, but (Monk+Wings+High Unarmed Damage-VoP) is less hosed than (Monk+Wings+Low/medium Unarmed Damage+Low/medium Breath weapon-VoP), because it's better to have one very effective attack than two mediocre ones.

True. A few questions for the feats you listed though, since Superior unarmed strike gets me unarmed damage equal to a monk four levels higher, what happens with that when my unarmed attack damage stops growing? Also, can snap kick be used along with a monk's Flurry of Blows?

Last Laugh
2010-03-14, 02:31 PM
Improved Flight (RoTW) improves maneuverability
Does a dragonborn count as having a natural fly speed?
This is moot if you decide to take the breathweapon choice

The Glyphstone
2010-03-14, 02:38 PM
True. A few questions for the feats you listed though, since Superior unarmed strike gets me unarmed damage equal to a monk four levels higher, what happens with that when my unarmed attack damage stops growing? Also, can snap kick be used along with a monk's Flurry of Blows?


RAW, no, Unarmed Strike does not improve past effective level 20. It's good up until level 17 though, at which point you just retrain it out for something more usable. For, say, Martial Study (Burning Blade). Sure, most enemies are fireproof, but when you happen to fight one that isn't, once per fight your entire massive full-attack routine gains 1d6+8-1d6+10 fire damage per attack. A total attack routine of +13/+13/+13/+13+8/+3 before Str or enhancements, for 4d8+Str+1d6+10 on all of them except the snap kick, which is 1/2 Str.

Snap Kick can be used any time you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons - standard action, full attack, or otherwise. It's basically a poor man's Flurry actually, because it comes with that minorly annoying -2 attack penalty, but it can be used on top of a real Flurry.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-14, 03:10 PM
RAW, no, Unarmed Strike does not improve past effective level 20. It's good up until level 17 though, at which point you just retrain it out for something more usable.

What do you mean by retraining it out?

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-14, 03:37 PM
Improved Flight (RoTW) improves maneuverability
Does a dragonborn count as having a natural fly speed?
This is moot if you decide to take the breathweapon choice

Yes, and here's an excerpt from RoTD to prove it.

Flight: When a dragonborn who selected the wings
aspect reaches 6 HD, she gains a f ly speed of 30 feet
with average maneuverability. A dragonborn can’t
f ly while carrying a medium or heavy load or while
fatigued or exhausted.

It doesn't say so I'll ask you, can the Improved Flight (RoTW) feat be taken more than once and have the effects stack?

Mystic Muse
2010-03-14, 04:05 PM
You can't take something multiple times unless it specifically says you can take it multiple times.

The Glyphstone
2010-03-14, 04:08 PM
What do you mean by retraining it out?

PHBII has rules for Retraining - when you level up, you can select one choice you made previously in your character's build and alter it. One of the six options is [Feat]; you can exchange any feat you currently have for any feat that you would have qualified for at the time you took the original feat. Martial Study has no prerequisites, so you could trade any feat you have (in this case, SAS) to pick it up in that same feat slot.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-14, 05:34 PM
PHBII has rules for Retraining - when you level up, you can select one choice you made previously in your character's build and alter it. One of the six options is [Feat]; you can exchange any feat you currently have for any feat that you would have qualified for at the time you took the original feat. Martial Study has no prerequisites, so you could trade any feat you have (in this case, SAS) to pick it up in that same feat slot.

Where is the information for the Martial Study (Burning Blade) you mentioned earlier, I didn't see it in the Tome of Battle.

The Glyphstone
2010-03-14, 07:23 PM
Martial Study is a feat...you choose one maneuver you qualify for, and gain the use of it once per encounter. If you have martial adept levels, you can recover it by the usual method for your class. ToB page 31.

Burning Blade is a 1st-level Desert Wind swift-action Boost with no prerequisites, that adds fire damage to all attacks made for one turn. ToB page 52.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-14, 09:07 PM
Burning Blade: "A subtle yet precise twisting of your blade unlocks the power of flame. When you initiate this maneuver, fire trails from your melee weapon."

Do unarmed attacks count as a melee weapon?

Also for the improved natural weapon feat mentioned earlier, do dragonborn monks actually have natural weapons? If so, how would I flurry when the feat only applies to one natural weapon?

Flickerdart
2010-03-14, 09:23 PM
Unarmed attacks are definitely melee attacks (because they are not ranged).

The Glyphstone
2010-03-14, 09:52 PM
Burning Blade: "A subtle yet precise twisting of your blade unlocks the power of flame. When you initiate this maneuver, fire trails from your melee weapon."

Do unarmed attacks count as a melee weapon?

Also for the improved natural weapon feat mentioned earlier, do dragonborn monks actually have natural weapons? If so, how would I flurry when the feat only applies to one natural weapon?

Question 1:

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Improved Natural Attack is an effect that improves a natural weapon, so a monk qualifies for it.
Question 2: You're making the same mistake a lot of new monk players tend to...you only have one natural weapon, your unarmed strike. A monk's whole body is their weapon, no matter what part you're attacking with - head, hands, feet, knees, pelvic thrust, it's all the same 'weapon'.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-14, 10:18 PM
So if a monk's whole body is a natural weapon, then the Improved Natural Weapon feat can only be taken once for me?

The Glyphstone
2010-03-15, 02:55 AM
That's correct. You can only take it once, since it doesnt' stack with itself, but will affect every unarmed strike you make.

It's a pity you're using VoP, because it blocks off one of the most ridiculously amusing builds I've seen, taking Versatile Unarmed Strike so your unarmed attacks count as piercing/slashing/bludgeoning, then getting a Necklace of Natural Attacks with Vorpal on it. End result = headbutts that decapitate people.

Consider taking Versatile Unarmed Strike anyways, it's a handy feat at low levels where DR/attack type is more common, and more retraining fodder once you get into the upper levels.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-15, 06:11 AM
That's correct. You can only take it once, since it doesnt' stack with itself, but will affect every unarmed strike you make.

It's a pity you're using VoP, because it blocks off one of the most ridiculously amusing builds I've seen, taking Versatile Unarmed Strike so your unarmed attacks count as piercing/slashing/bludgeoning, then getting a Necklace of Natural Attacks with Vorpal on it. End result = headbutts that decapitate people.

Consider taking Versatile Unarmed Strike anyways, it's a handy feat at low levels where DR/attack type is more common, and more retraining fodder once you get into the upper levels.

There is an epic-level feat that allows my unarmed-attacks to be Vorpal, so it's still possible. Also, while shifting through the retraining section in the PHII, it says that I can retrain ANY feat for one that I could have taken as long as I qualified for it at that level. Since Vop gives me a bunch of near-useless exalted feats every 2 levels, could I not use those to get some of these more useful feats (such as the above mentioned Versatile Unarmed Strike). Also, If I could have taken a feat as a bonus feat (such as stunning fist) without qualifying for it at the level, could I still retrain one of my feats to obtain it?

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-15, 06:22 AM
There is an epic-level feat that allows my unarmed-attacks to be Vorpal, so it's still possible.

If you plan to go epic and take that feat, remember that the prerequisite feat, in the ELH update, makes the critical treath 18-20.



Keen Strike [Epic]
Prerequisites: Str 23, Wis 23, Improved Critical (unarmed
strike), Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, ki strike
(adamantine).
Benefit: Your unarmed strike has a critical threat range of
18–20 and deals slashing damage. (At your option, any unarmed
strike can deal bludgeoning damage instead, but cannot then
take advantage of the enhanced threat range.) This ability doesn’t
stack with other abilities that expand your unarmed strike’s
threat range.


And then starts the combo with roundabout kick..

Emmerask
2010-03-15, 06:30 AM
In those cases it's considered fair game to play an Artificer.

Because a dm who severely limits items will happily allow a class which creates those items he doesn´t want the party to have, yep I´m 100% sure that this will work :smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone
2010-03-15, 01:13 PM
There is an epic-level feat that allows my unarmed-attacks to be Vorpal, so it's still possible. Also, while shifting through the retraining section in the PHII, it says that I can retrain ANY feat for one that I could have taken as long as I qualified for it at that level. Since Vop gives me a bunch of near-useless exalted feats every 2 levels, could I not use those to get some of these more useful feats (such as the above mentioned Versatile Unarmed Strike). Also, If I could have taken a feat as a bonus feat (such as stunning fist) without qualifying for it at the level, could I still retrain one of my feats to obtain it?


It's possible, but it's not as funny. You're expected to do ridiculous stuff like that in Epic.

As for retraining bonus Exalted feats into normal feats - that might be treading on shaky legal ground. I'd say it's about the same level of cheese as the Chaos Shuffle, so moderate-high - VoP gives you a lot of feat fodder to retrain. But it's also VoP, so I personally would allow it.

Bonus Feats can't be retrained into unless you're giving up the other bonus feat you chose at that level, because it's technically a Class Feature when you're choosing from a limited list, which is another Retraining option. Retraining specifically says that you have to qualify for the feat you're retraining into. For example, you could Retrain your bonus Improved Grapple feat into Stunning Fist, since they're both 1st level feat options, even if you don't meet the prerequisites, or retrain Imp. Grapple into any other feat you do qualify for. You couldn't retrain the Dodge feat you took as your general 6th level feat into Improved Trip unless you meet the prerequisites, though you could swap the Improved Disarm you chose instead at that level.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-15, 07:29 PM
What is this Chaos Shuffle you speak of?

Also, stunning fist says that for my limited usage of the feat, I must make a declaration of my intention before my attack roll. So do I need to use a stunning fist for every attack made in a Flurry of Blows, or can I use one for all of it?

The Glyphstone
2010-03-15, 09:10 PM
What is this Chaos Shuffle you speak of?

Also, stunning fist says that for my limited usage of the feat, I must make a declaration of my intention before my attack roll. So do I need to use a stunning fist for every attack made in a Flurry of Blows, or can I use one for all of it?

The Chaos Shuffle is a high-end optimization trick to get massive feat flexibility, involving two spells from the Fiendish Codex. Embrace the Dark Chaos lets you trade any feat you have for one of a specific list of Abyssal feats. Shun the Dark Chaos lets you trade any Abyssal feat for any feat you qualify for when you cast it. Together, this lets you trade away any feat you don't want for any feat you do want, as long as you meet the requirements...it's basically retraining+1, but it costs a chunk of money and/or XP each time you do it.

A flurry is a Full Attack, which is multiple attacks and multiple attack rolls. You would have to spend a Stunning Fist each time you wanted to add the effect to an attack, but you can decide yes or no before each attack you make.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-15, 09:31 PM
On the improved natural attack feat, could I apply it to my ki-strike abilities and have it increase my unarmed attack damage while simultaneously increasing the power of things such as the feat Ki-blast?

The Glyphstone
2010-03-15, 09:47 PM
On the improved natural attack feat, could I apply it to my ki-strike abilities and have it increase my unarmed attack damage while simultaneously increasing the power of things such as the feat Ki-blast?

What are Ki Strike abilities? If you mean stuff like Ki Strike (Adamatine) and Ki Strike (Lawful) - there's no overlap, Ki Strike is just a modification to your unarmed strike. So is Improved Natural Attack, they don't conflict.

Ki Blast has nothing to do with it, since its damage doesn't have any relation to your unarmed strike damage. Look it up on page 80 of PHB2 if you're curious.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-15, 09:54 PM
By Ki-strike abilities I meant the ki energy monk's are infused with. I was wondering if that counted as a natural weapon or not. Apparently not though.

The Glyphstone
2010-03-15, 10:24 PM
No, the Ki Strike abilities are improvements to your Unarmed Strike, they're not any sort of separate attack on their own.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-15, 10:28 PM
Does anyone know of really good feats to take to improve unarmed strike damage other than what's already been mentioned in this thread?

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-16, 05:28 PM
Wow, our party's paladin convinced our DM to allow him to get a wer-octopus-cheeta as a mount at 6th level! Talk about overpowered.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-16, 05:51 PM
Wow, our party's paladin convinced our DM to allow him to get a wer-octopus-cheeta as a mount at 6th level! Talk about overpowered.

what about this is overpowered? Octopus is CR 1 and Cheetah is CR2. Heck if the Paladin isn't small or smaller he can't even ride the thing.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-16, 06:45 PM
what about this is overpowered? Octopus is CR 1 and Cheetah is CR2. Heck if the Paladin isn't small or smaller he can't even ride the thing.

He's a gnome, and a I forgot to add the half-celestioal part in there. Here's the email he sent me detailing it.


Some of you may be aware of a certain phenomena called "Math Class Boredom", which results in some of the most amazing wastes of time known to man. It also, in cases such as mine, results in brilliant, if completely insane and unworkable ideas that serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever. I now most humbly present, the CelestialGiantWereOctopusCheetah, which, with luck, my gnome will be riding in five more levels.

Half-Celestial Giant Were-Octopus Cheetah, Second-level Monk (Cheetah Form)
Medium Outsider (Augmented Animal, Extraplanar, Shapeshifter, Native)
Hit Dice: 3d8+9+2d8+6+60 (107 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares), Fly 100 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 34 (+7 dex +7 natural +5 Monk, +5 Poverty) Touch 18 Flat Footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+20
Attack: Bite +17 Melee (2d6+8 and Golden Ice)
Full Attack: Bite +17 Melee (2d6+8 and Golden Ice) and 2 claws +12 Melee (1d6+1d2+4 and Golden Ice)
Flurry of Blows: Bite +15 Melee (2d6+8 and Golden Ice) and 2 claws +10 Melee (1d6+1d2+4 and Golden Ice) +1 extra of any attack
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip, Smite Evil, Flurry of Blows, Golden Ice, Daylight, Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Low light vision, scent, sprint, Pounce, Darkvision 60, Damage Reduction 10/Silver and Magic, Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and electricity 10, Spell Resistance 15, Empathic Link, Improved Evasion, Share Spells, Share Saving Throws, Exalted strike +1, Sustenance.
Saves: Fort +15*, Ref +18, Will +9
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 26, Con 20, Int 8, Wis 21, Cha 14
Skills: Jump +18, Spot +13, Listen +13
Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows, Touch of Golden Ice, Nimbus of Light, Alertness, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Environment: Warm plains on a good-aligned plane.
Organization: Solitary, pair, family (3-5), or Paladin's Mount (1+Paladin)




Half-Celestial Giant Were-Octopus Cheetah, Second-level Monk (Hybrid Form)
Large Outsider (Augmented Animal, Extraplanar, Shapeshifter, Native)
Hit Dice: 3d8+9+2d8+6+60 (107 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares), Fly 100 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 37 (-1 size +9 dex +9 natural +5 Monk, +5 Poverty) Touch 18 Flat Footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+29
Attack: Bite +22 Melee (2d6+13 and Golden Ice)
Full Attack: Bite +22 Melee (2d6+13 and Golden Ice) and 2 claws +17 Melee (1d6+1d2+7 and Golden Ice) and 8 Tentacles +22 Melee (1d6+1d4+13) and stomach +17 Melee (1d8+1d6+7)
Flurry of Blows: Bite +20 Melee (2d6+11 and Golden Ice) and 2 claws +15 Melee (1d6+1d2+6 and Golden Ice) and 8 Tentacles +20 Melee (1d6+1d4+11 and Golden Ice) and stomach +15 Melee (1d8+1d6+6 and Golden Ice) +1 extra of any attack
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (20ft with tentacles)
Special Attacks: Trip, Smite Evil, Flurry of Blows, Golden Ice, Improved Grab, Constrict, Daylight, Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Low light vision, scent, sprint, Pounce, Darkvision 60, Damage Reduction 10/Silver and Magic, Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and electricity 10, Spell Resistance 15, Empathic Link, Improved Evasion, Share Spells, Share Saving Throws, Exalted strike +1, Sustenance, Ink Cloud, Jet
Saves: Fort +16*, Ref +20, Will +9
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 28, Con 22, Int 8, Wis 21, Cha 14
Skills: Jump +18, Spot +13, Listen +13
Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows, Touch of Golden Ice, Nimbus of Light, Alertness, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Environment: Warm plains on a good-aligned plane.
Organization: Solitary, pair, family (3-5), or Paladin's Mount (1+Paladin)



Half-Celestial Giant Were-Octopus Cheetah, Second-level Monk (Giant Octopus Form)
Large Outsider (Augmented Animal, Extraplanar, Shapeshifter, Native)
Hit Dice: 3d8+15+2d8+10+60 (107 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 20 ft (4 squares), swim 30 ft, Fly 60 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 37 (-1 size +9 dex +9 natural +5 Monk, +5 Poverty) Touch 18 Flat Footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+29
Attack: Tentacle +20 Melee (1d6+1d4+11 and Golden Ice)
Full Attack: 8 Tentacles +22 Melee (1d6+1d4+13) and stomach +17 Melee (1d8+1d6+7)
Flurry of Blows: 8 Tentacles +20 Melee (1d6+1d4+13 and Golden Ice) and stomach +15 Melee (1d8+1d6+7 and Golden Ice) +1 extra of any attack
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (20ft with tentacles)
Special Attacks: Smite Evil, Flurry of Blows, Golden Ice, Improved Grab, Constrict, Daylight, Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Low light vision, scent, Darkvision 60, Damage Reduction 10/Silver and Magic, Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and electricity 10, Spell Resistance 15, Empathic Link, Improved Evasion, Share Spells, Share Saving Throws, Exalted strike +1, Sustenance, Ink Cloud, Jet
Saves: Fort +16*, Ref +20, Will +9
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 28, Con 22, Int 8, Wis 21, Cha 14
Skills: Spot +15, Listen +15, Tumble +17, Survival +13, Diplomacy +12 (+14 on Good-aligned creatures, additional +4 when speaking with octopi), Appraise +7, Use Rope +17
Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows, Touch of Golden Ice, Nimbus of Light, Alertness, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Environment: Warm plains on a good-aligned plane.
Organization: Solitary, pair, family (3-5), or Paladin's Mount (1+Paladin)

*+4 bonus to Fortitude saves vs. Poison.

Trip(Ex): When the Celestial Giant Were-Octopus Cheetah hits with a natural attack in Cheetah or Hybrid form, it can attempt to trip the opponent (+9 check modifier, or +14 in Hybrid form) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the cheetah. If the attempt is successful, the Celestial Giant Were-Octopus Cheetah can immediately make another attack at the same attack bonus it used to make the trip attempt.
Pounce (Ex): If the celestial cheetah charges, it can make a full attack even though it has moved.
Sprint (Ex): Once per hour, a cheetah can move ten times its normal speed when it makes a charge.
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day the celestial cheetah can make a normal melee attack to deal 5 extra damage against an evil foe.
Empathic Link (Su): The paladin has an empathic link with her mount out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The paladin cannot see through the mount’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically. Note that even intelligent mounts see the world differently from humans, so misunderstandings are always possible.
Because of this empathic link, the paladin has the same connection to an item or place that her mount does, just as with a master and his familiar.
Improved Evasion (Ex): When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, a mount takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage if the saving throw fails.
Share Spells: At the paladin’s option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts on herself also affect her mount. The mount must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the mount if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the mount again even if it returns to the paladin before the duration expires. Additionally, the paladin may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her mount (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A paladin and her mount can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the mount’s type (magical beast).
Share Saving Throws: For each of its saving throws, the mount uses its own base save bonus or the paladin’s, whichever is higher. The mount applies its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn’t share any other bonuses on saves that the master might have (such as from magic items or feats).
Endure Elements (Ex): A 3rd-level ascetic is immune to the effects of being in a hot or cold environment. He can exist comfortably in conditions between –50 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit
without having to make Fortitude saves (as described in the Dungeon Master’s Guide).
Exalted Strike (Su): At 4th level, an ascetic gains a +1 enhancement bonus on all his attack and damage rolls. In effect, any weapon the character wields becomes a +1 magic weapon, and can overcome the damage reduction of a creature as though it were a magic weapon.
Sustenance (Ex): A 5th-level ascetic doesn’t need to eat or drink.
Improved Grab (Ex): When the...thing... hits with a tentacle attack, it can attempt a grapple check as a free action. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.
Constrict (Ex): A successful grapple check in hybrid or octopus form deals 2d8+12 damage.
Ink Cloud (Ex): In Hybrid or Octopus form, the...thing... can emit a cloud of jet-black ink that fills a 20ft cube once per minute as a free action. The cloud provides total concealment and obscures all vision.
Jet (Ex): Once per round as a full-round action in Hybrid or Octopus form, the...thing... can jet backwards 200ft. Through the air. Pwnd.
Golden Ice (Ex): Any evil creature struck by the Celestial Cheetah is ravaged by Golden Ice.

Ravage
Type
Initial Damage
Secondary Damage
Golden Ice
Contact DC 14
1d6 Dex
2d6 Dex

Daylight (Su): As the spell, at-will: The object touched sheds light as bright as full daylight in a 60-foot radius, and dim light for an additional 60 feet beyond that for 50 minutes. Creatures that take penalties in bright light also take them while within the radius of this magical light. Despite its name, this spell is not the equivalent of daylight for the purposes of creatures that are damaged or destroyed by bright light (such as vampires). If daylight is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a light-proof covering, the spell’s effects are blocked until the covering is removed. Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect. Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness.
Spell-like Abilities: 3/day: Protection from Evil, 1/day: Bless, Detect Evil, Aid

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-16, 06:48 PM
WTF?!? At 6th level? how did he manage to convince the DM of that?

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-16, 06:53 PM
WTF?!? At 6th level? how did he manage to convince the DM of that?

DM is new, and merely said that he would bring all H E Double Hocky Sticks Down on him (and thus inderectly the rest of the party :smalleek:)and I doubt he relized the full power of this; that there probably wont be enough to bring down on him to make up for this power.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-16, 06:55 PM
By the way, what constitutes a special attack?

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-16, 06:56 PM
Why did he allow it in the first place though? I must learn this paladin's ways...

Also, explain to your DM that the paladin's mount will be far more powerful the the paladin himself.


By the way, what constitutes a special attack?

What do you mean?

Mystic Muse
2010-03-16, 07:06 PM
okay. now that is overpowered. I thought it was normal octopus without any templates.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-16, 07:06 PM
Why did he allow it in the first place though? I must learn this paladin's ways...

Also, explain to your DM that the paladin's mount will be far more powerful the the paladin himself.



What do you mean?

I'll just have to let the DM find that out for himself and then help him plot some way of killing it of without killing our paladin, (like an enraged good god that says that the paladin is using evil means to get power, cause the Lords of Madness book says that unnatural creatures (like his mount) are evil abominations of nature, and that making them is pantamount evil basically).

As to what I mean in my question, I want to know how a special attack is defined cause I want to know what I can apply it to with my monk, like it's breath weapon or something of the sort.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-16, 07:09 PM
(like an enraged good god that says that the paladin is using evil means to get power, cause the Lords of Madness book says that unnatural creatures (like his mount) are evil abominations of nature, and that making them is pantamount evil basically).


won't count. he didn't make it and Unless making something that isn't normal within nature is considered evil in your DM's campaign (which makes no sense considering celestials aren't natural creatures and neither are magical beasts.) that probably doesn't count anyway.

And there are probably quite a few ways to get rid of the mount without killing the Paladin. Just ask on here and you'll probably get a dozen different methods.

However, you can argue that the mount shouldn't be able to take vow of poverty. You can't really vow to give up something you didn't really have in the first place.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-16, 07:14 PM
As to what I mean in my question, I want to know how a special attack is defined cause I want to know what I can apply it to with my monk, like it's breath weapon or something of the sort.

I'm sorry, I still don't follow. What exactly are you trying to do with it?

Also, Kyuubi is right, unless you feel like giving the mount 1/4th of the treasure, it can't take VoP. If it does keep it be sure to point out the mount has to stay exalted, and must be really Lawful Good

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-16, 08:29 PM
I'm sorry, I still don't follow. What exactly are you trying to do with it?

Also, Kyuubi is right, unless you feel like giving the mount 1/4th of the treasure, it can't take VoP. If it does keep it be sure to point out the mount has to stay exalted, and must be really Lawful Good

I'm trying to increase the DC of my Dragonborn Monk's Breath Weapon and possibly the DC of not catching on fire when I use the fiery fist feat.

Another question to add to that is if at 8th level when I get Ki Blast as a Monk Bonus Feat, it says I may expend two daily uses of my stunning fist as a move action to form an orb of raw Ki energy that I can then use a standard action to throw with a range of 60 ft. It then says that if not thrown at the end of my turn, it dissipates harmlessly. So may I choose to form the orb and then make an attack roll on an opponent within my reach while also applying the Fiery Fist feat, which applies 1d6 of fire damage, and apply the damage from the orb as if I had thrown it?

Soranar
2010-03-16, 09:00 PM
Half-Celestial Giant Were-Octopus
LA +4, LA +2 (I think) , LA + x

his mount is like 6 levels higher than him...

Mystic Muse
2010-03-16, 09:09 PM
It's actually at least 7(the were template is +3. The Giant octopus is probably at least LA+2 as well.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-16, 11:19 PM
Another question to be added to this thread, if I take the Monastic training feat that allows me to multiclass without having to stop taking monk levels, and multiclass into paladin, would I then have to take the Knight training feat, which does the same for paladins, to take levels intermittently of monk and paladin?

Soranar
2010-03-16, 11:24 PM
ascetic knight fixes that problem for you and makes your monk/paladin levels stack for unarmed damage and smite

and no you wouldn't need to do so for any other class

if you take monastic training , it lets you go back and forth between monk and any class, in effect monk just becomes a normal class in terms of multiclassing

you could also play an illumian to ignore that restriction to both these classes

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-17, 08:49 AM
Which would be better for an exalted monk to multiclass in, fighter or paladin?

Mystic Muse
2010-03-17, 10:21 AM
Paladin makes more sense in terms of fluff I'd say but since your first class is a Monk you'd only want to go in until third level. maybe second if your DM doesn' use Diseases very often. The fighter's bonus feats would probably help you a bit.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-17, 05:08 PM
Luck Feats! The look nice, but are they actually worth the while in taking them over something that improves combat ability?

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-17, 05:09 PM
Luck Feats! The look nice, but are they actually worth the while in taking them over something that improves combat ability?

No. 90% of them suck.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-17, 08:40 PM
No. 90% of them suck.

But of those 10%, how many are worth taking?

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-17, 08:45 PM
But of those 10%, how many are worth taking?

They all have prerequisites. They can be useful in some builds (only one I can think of now is lightning maces), but you shouldn't waste your time with them.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-18, 12:28 AM
When looking through Unapproachable East, I saw battle jump and that, omg, it was the perfect feat for a character than can dive from great hights without a fly or levitate spell or effect (woot dragon wings). This has a prerequisite of the Taer Region. Ok, so I could put in my character's history that he trained at a monistary in the Taer region. The problem is though, that the pounce feat would be perfect with this in so many ways, yet the only way to get it without killing a bunch of feat slots, would be the Lion totem from Complete Champion for Barbarians!. Arg. Now in the description of the Taer region it says that preffered classes were barbarian, druid, and ranger. So does this mean that I may multiclass into barbarian for one level without having to take an Xp penalty through using the Monastic training feat to multiclass into "any class" while being able to come back to monk?

The Glyphstone
2010-03-18, 01:47 AM
If you're starting at higher than level one, just say your first level was in Barbarian, and all further levels were in Monk. You won't be able to Rage, but you get to keep everything else.

Or there's the Chaos Monk variant from Dragon. I don't remember all the stuff it does, but it's vastly more powerful than Monk (rolls 1d6 for bonus flurry attacks, I think).

TheMadLinguist
2010-03-18, 04:42 AM
There's also the ordered chaos feat, if you want to take that.


Most DMs I know handwave away the clauses that monks and paladins can't multiclass anyway. The official word from the designers is that it was just added because playtesters thought it would be thematically appropriate, not because of any balance concern.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-18, 05:55 AM
Or there's the Chaos Monk variant from Dragon. I don't remember all the stuff it does, but it's vastly more powerful than Monk (rolls 1d6 for bonus flurry attacks, I think).

Starts + (d4-1) attacks, , -2 to hit, ends + (d6-1) attacks, no malus to hit at higher levels.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-19, 10:00 PM
What Stunning Fist feats can be used in combination with an attack roll?

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-19, 10:45 PM
Also, I've come across an interesting issue between CW and OA. In CW Fists of Iron gets me +1d6 damage at the expense of a stunning fist usage. In OA, Fists of Iron gets me +1d4 damage that can be used 3 + my wisdom modifier times per day. Also, in CW Flying Kick deals +1d12 after an unarmed strike at the end of a charge, while in OA Flying Kick says I deal double damage with an unarmed attack after a charge, what is going on?

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-19, 10:49 PM
Also, I've come across an interesting issue between CW and OA. In CW Fists of Iron gets me +1d6 damage at the expense of a stunning fist usage. In OA, Fists of Iron gets me +1d4 damage that can be used 3 + my wisdom modifier times per day. Also, in CW Flying Kick deals +1d12 after an unarmed strike at the end of a charge, while in OA Flying Kick says I deal double damage with an unarmed attack after a charge, what is going on?

I believe OA is 3e, and anything that has been updated can't be used.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-19, 11:07 PM
There's also the ordered chaos feat, if you want to take that.

FYI: Order Chaos does not work that way. It only applies to Abyssal Heritor feats, and even then only one IIRC.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-20, 12:11 AM
I managed to convince my DM that the next level I gained, I would put it in barbarian, as if it had been my very first level to take and had then completely switched over to being a monk. Because of this he also said I would not incur the XP loss either :smallbiggrin:

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-24, 09:31 AM
Ok, I like the looks of water step (found in stormwrack) that I can have as an alternitave class feature to slow fall. However it says that it must start or end on dry ground. Could I not start on ground, and then leap into the air from the water and fly any distance that remains? And since I currently only have the gliding capability, if I couldn't glide the rest of the way, could I not start the water step again from the air as easily as from the air as from the ground?

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-24, 10:33 PM
In Cityscape, a feat called roof-jumper allows me to deliberitely fall on an opponent from a minimum of 20 feet which is treated as a charge with an extra 1d6 damage per 10ft beyond the first 10ft. So could a dragonborn with a flyspeed combine the feats Spirited Dive, Spirited Charge, Pounce, and this feat to deal damage?

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-26, 07:20 PM
Most important question so far! If I take a level in fist of the forest after attaining 4th level monk (thus unarmed damage of 1d8) it says my unarmed damage would then be increased to the next damage size indicated by the monk table in PHB, so does this apply for the later monk levels, like dealing 2d6 instead of 1d10, ect. If so, what happens at level 20?

Critical
2010-03-26, 07:46 PM
Most important question so far! If I take a level in fist of the forest after attaining 4th level monk (thus unarmed damage of 1d8) it says my unarmed damage would then be increased to the next damage size indicated by the monk table in PHB, so does this apply for the later monk levels, like dealing 2d6 instead of 1d10, ect. If so, what happens at level 20?

If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of
damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated
on the monk class table.
Meaning, you must deal 1d8 unarmed damage when entering, at least by RAW. Unarmed damage doesn't increase above level 20.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-27, 10:57 AM
Meaning, you must deal 1d8 unarmed damage when entering, at least by RAW. Unarmed damage doesn't increase above level 20.

I will deal that at 4th level monk. When I take that 1st level in Fist of the Forest, that means my unarmed attack will instead deal 1d10. what I'm asking is that at 8th level monk, when I would normally have achieved 1d10 damage with my unarmed strike, would I still be dealing the 1d10, or will it increase to 2d6 (or 1d12)?

Mystic Muse
2010-03-27, 11:22 AM
you might want to think about superior unarmed strike. increases your unarmed strike damage by one step. the feat is in tome of battle. (even fi your group doesn't allow the book, ask if you can use that feat)

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-27, 03:22 PM
you might want to think about superior unarmed strike. increases your unarmed strike damage by one step. the feat is in tome of battle. (even fi your group doesn't allow the book, ask if you can use that feat)

Since I'm a monk, superior unarmed strike gives me the unarmed strike damage of a monk 5 levels higher, a feat that becomes useless once my unarmed damage stops increasing. Unless you're saying that at level 20 when I gain 2d10 damage (which I would get at 15th level with this feat) that this feat would then simply increase it to 4d8 and be done. I am taking a level in Fist of the Forest so that I get my constitution modifier as a bonus to my armor class (very useful since I will focus on increasing con for the dc of my breath weapon to go up). All I need is a clarrification on whether the increase mentioned in my unarmed attack can be carried on as I increase monk levels and thus unarmed damage, or not.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-27, 03:46 PM
Since I'm a monk, superior unarmed strike gives me the unarmed strike damage of a monk 5 levels higher, a feat that becomes useless once my unarmed damage stops increasing. Unless you're saying that at level 20 when I gain 2d10 damage (which I would get at 15th level with this feat) that this feat would then simply increase it to 4d8 and be done. I am taking a level in Fist of the Forest so that I get my constitution modifier as a bonus to my armor class (very useful since I will focus on increasing con for the dc of my breath weapon to go up). All I need is a clarrification on whether the increase mentioned in my unarmed attack can be carried on as I increase monk levels and thus unarmed damage, or not.

VERY few games will actually go to 15, let alone 20 if they start at level one, especially if it has new players. Don't worry about really long term planning. A reasonable DM will let you increase it about 2d10 anyway.

Flickerdart
2010-03-27, 04:06 PM
You can easily retrain the feat after it becomes useless, or have one of your allies Psychic Reformation or Chaos Shuffle you. You do have allied Psions or casters, right?

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-03-27, 06:57 PM
Casters yes, but this is getting far off topic of my question.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-04-20, 05:40 PM
Ok, since last I have posted, I have determined with my DM that the unarmed damage increases granted by the Fist of the Forest stack with my monk levels. I will go till 11th level monk and take the superior unarmed attack feat to get 2d8 damage, then the first level of Fist of the forest will get me 2d10, and then at third level, the damage increase is being treated as if by the improved natural attack feat. Then with the improved natural attack feat itself my damage will go up to 6d8. With the right feats, it will go up to 8d8 from the Empty Hand Mastery from oriental adventures. Also, I have been working on a prestige class that is about to be approved by my DM, yet it has 4 unarmed damage increases that increase the unarmed damage just as if by the improved natural attack feat. The table I have for that ends at 16d8, leaving 2 more increases that would remain. What would the damage for those next two increases be? After that, if greater mighty wallop stacked with my current unarmed damage, what amount of damage would I be dealing after that was cast on me after my final planned increase?

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-04-20, 06:46 PM
Also, my Dm has decided to make his own rule on fly speed, so my fly speed is equal to 2x my land speed, so if I were to make a dive straight down, would gravity increase my speed, and if so how fast would I be able to go with a land speed of say 50. Also, when making a charge action, does going at great speeds provide any sort of bonus to the attack(s) made at the end?

The Glyphstone
2010-04-20, 06:48 PM
Gravity has nothing to do with your fly speed. Moving straight down, however, does allow you to 'fly' at double your normal fly speed.

Speed has no effect on the bonus granted to charges.


Also, you should probably consider using the Edit function to add new questions to posts that haven't been answered...double-posting is frowned on in most circumstances, if it's not outright prohibited.

Flickerdart
2010-04-20, 06:49 PM
All creatures get double speed when diving.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-04-20, 08:57 PM
Gravity has nothing to do with your fly speed. Moving straight down, however, does allow you to 'fly' at double your normal fly speed.

Speed has no effect on the bonus granted to charges.


Also, you should probably consider using the Edit function to add new questions to posts that haven't been answered...double-posting is frowned on in most circumstances, if it's not outright prohibited.

Thanks, and I'll try to keep that in mind for next time then. By the way, here's a feat from DnDwiki called Cleaving Rampage.

You charge forward cutting through all in your path.
Prerequisite: [[3e Prerequisite::Str 13, Dex 13, Power Attack, Cleave, Dodge, Great Cleave, Mobility, Spring Attack, Base attack bonus +8]]
Benefit: As a full round action you may trace a path up to twice your speed in a straight line. This path must be generally clear; the only obstructions allowed are friendly or enemy combatants. You must attack the first opponent along your path, and must move at least 10 ft. before your first attack. If you drop an opponent you can take a cleave attack on the next available target. If no targets are in reach you may continue moving along the path. You must stop moving when you make an attack but fail to drop the opponent. Any opponent dropped will not hinder your movement even if they originally blocked your path. You are considered to be charging and get the usual +2 bonus to hit on all attacks for the round, and -2 to your AC until your next action. You still provoke attacks of opportunity as usual.
Special: This feat does not allow this maneuver to be used while mounted.

Since this is considered a charge, would the feats spirited dive and pounce still be applicable to it even though this doesn't require me to charge in a straight line?
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Totally separate from that thought, here is a special ability that I have made for my homebrew prestige class that requires the capability of using a breath weapon every 1d4 rounds.

Nature's Power (Su), at 3rd level the character gains a special usage of their breath weapon. They may choose to instead infuse one of the energy types with their unarmed attacks to deal extra damage of that energy type equal to (1/2 the prestige classe's levels that the character has rounded down)d8. It can be initiated as a swift action, and lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 the character's total levels rounded down. For each round that the character has this effect on, they must succeed on a DC 15 + 1/2 the character's total class levels rounded down to prevent the raging raw energy from bursting out of control. In the case of a failed concentration check, the energy bursts from the character dealing 1d6 damage per level the character has in the prestige class to her and everyone in a blast radius equal to 5ft per 3 hit dice the character has. This damage from the blast can be halfed by a succesfull reflex save. When a character suffers from the energy losing control in the burst, they are stunned for 1d3 rounds, though they may make a will save DC 20 + total class level to overcome the effects of being stunned every round after the burst when it is their turn. This concentration check is made at the end of the player's turn. At any point the character may dispel the energy as a swift action, however 1d8 damage is dealt to the character when the energy is dispelled unless they make a succesfull will save equal to DC 20 + the number of the prestige class levels the character has. After the effect has ended, the character must wait 1d6 rounds until they may either use their breath weapon or activate this ability again. At 6th level the character may choose to infuse all of the possible energies into his unarmed attacks. It is the same effect as before, expect it deals double damage as does the blast upon a failed check, and all of the types of energy are dealt when determining if it bypasses DR. It also requires a succesful will save of DC 20 + 1/2 the character's total levels rounded down in addition to the concentration check to determine if control is lost or not. If the will save is failed by 5 or less, the character may choose who is affected by the blast, though the character herself must still recieve the damage. At 9th level, the damage done by this effect gains an extra 1d8 of damage and the concentration check's and will save's DC all get a +2. After the usage of this supernatural ability, the character suffers the effects of fatigue for the remainder of the encounter and after 3 consecutive uses of the ability, the character falls unconcious for 12 hours. At lvl 6, the time is halfed, and then halfed again at lvl 9. At lvl6, the character only becomes fatigued after two uses of this ability. At 9th level, the character no longer becomes fatigued after consecutive uses of this ability and may use a standard action to attempt to disperse the affects of the fatigue, or a full round action to disperse the affects of exhaustion with a DC 25 fortitude save.

Opinions?

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-21, 01:21 AM
If you're looking to seriously increase your unarmed combat damage, along with Base Attack, look into Shou Disciple in the Unapprochable East book. The "Flurry with any weapon" ability is useless to you, but most GMs simply state that the 2nd, 3rd & 5th levels increase unarmed combat damage. Plus, two bonus feats (Mobility is nice, if you plan on doing fly-bys & such & Combat Expertise is great on rounds you're using your Breath Weapon) help feed your need for Feats.

Dracus_Pyrus13
2010-04-21, 07:48 PM
If you're looking to seriously increase your unarmed combat damage, along with Base Attack, look into Shou Disciple in the Unapprochable East book. The "Flurry with any weapon" ability is useless to you, but most GMs simply state that the 2nd, 3rd & 5th levels increase unarmed combat damage. Plus, two bonus feats (Mobility is nice, if you plan on doing fly-bys & such & Combat Expertise is great on rounds you're using your Breath Weapon) help feed your need for Feats.

First of all, shou disciple just isn't my taste, it's not really, well, unique enough to be a good prestige class. Second, I have less of a need for feats than you may think, because my DM is allowing me to retrain the exalted feat I get every 2lvls for any feat that I had the requirements for. Besides, it doesn't provide the free constitution modifier bonus to AC that both the prestige class I am making and Fist of the Forest offer at first level. Thus by taking both I get more increases to unarmed attack combined with a near bullet-proof AC for my level. For those of you wondering why I am so excited about getting my constitution modifier to AC it is because of my current stats as a level four dragonborn monk: Str:16, Dex:16 (after dragonborn racial adjustment), Con: 22 (also after dragonborn racial adjustment), Int: 14, Wis:20, Cha:13. My scores are all so high because our DM had us simply roll a d20 for our ability scores, and I rolled well :smallbiggrin: At sixth level I'll be able to get that +6 to armor class with my first fist of the forest level for a grand total of 29, and then I will get the bonus again when I reach roughly ECL 16, making my AC 56 (or 54 depending on whether my VoP ability boosts will go to wis or con first), with my touch and flat-footed not far behind.