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View Full Version : How does Vow of poverty work on Mounts?



Mystic Muse
2010-03-08, 02:11 AM
okay, I'm wondering just How vow of poverty works on a Paladin mount. It's kind of hard to give what you don't have and Paladin mounts generally don't get a share of the treasure.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2010-03-08, 02:21 AM
I'm not sure you're allowed to keep a mount with VoP, as technically it's a possession.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-08, 02:24 AM
I'm not sure you're allowed to keep a mount with VoP, as technically it's a possession.

How is it a possession? its an ally and friend summoned from the celestial realms. It just can't have a saddle or barding

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2010-03-08, 02:26 AM
How is it a possession? its an ally and friend summoned from the celestial realms. It just can't have a saddle or barding

Then being a male is not an option.
Also, I have yet to see a mount qualify for a companion since it's not bound by companion restrictions, and it's not an ally because it falls under mount.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-08, 02:36 AM
Then being a male is not an option.
WHAT!?



Also, I have yet to see a mount qualify for a companion since it's not bound by companion restrictions, and it's not an ally because it falls under mount.


"a paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil."
A paladin gets the service of the mount, its a loyal steed to serve against evil. That sounds like a companion to me. It may not be an animal companion like a druid or a ranger but its close enough.

According to the FAQ
A familiar, special mount, or animal companion isnít a material possession, and thus a character with Vow of Poverty isnít restricted from gaining the benefits of such creatures.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2010-03-08, 02:40 AM
WHAT!?



"a paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil."
A paladin gets the service of the mount, its a loyal steed to serve against evil. That sounds like a companion to me. It may not be an animal companion like a druid or a ranger but its close enough.

According to the FAQ
A familiar, special mount, or animal companion isnít a material possession, and thus a character with Vow of Poverty isnít restricted from gaining the benefits of such creatures.

Then it doesn't affect the mount, and the only thing you have to worry about is the family jewels since you won't be allowed to buy a saddle.

faceroll
2010-03-08, 02:45 AM
Then it doesn't affect the mount, and the only thing you have to worry about is the family jewels since you won't be allowed to buy a saddle.

The mount buys you a saddle.

But I think the OP means "can you give your mount VoP"?

Mystic Muse
2010-03-08, 02:47 AM
slight miscommunication. I've seen people on here suggesting making the mount take vow of poverty. THAT's what I'm talking about.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-08, 02:47 AM
Then it doesn't affect the mount, and the only thing you have to worry about is the family jewels since you won't be allowed to buy a saddle.
Now I get it.
You could probably get away with a blanket.(Native Americans used them instead of saddles), as your allowed some simple home spun clothing. VoP being intended for mature roll players. Denying the blanket so the male paladin suffers for riding his mount, sounds king of immature.


Edit: OK so giving a mount VoP.
No, the mount doesn't own possessions to begin with.

Eldan
2010-03-08, 03:24 AM
It doesn't explicitly say that you have to have possessions to get VoP. So, theoretically, the mount could take the Vows. However, I'd think most DMs would bludgeon you with the BoED for that.

Malificus
2010-03-08, 03:28 AM
Edit: OK so giving a mount VoP.
No, the mount doesn't own possessions to begin with.

Now the mount is simply making a solemn life-affirming vow to keep it that way.

krossbow
2010-03-08, 03:29 AM
i sense an endless loop of followers with followers with vow of poverty.

faceroll
2010-03-08, 03:45 AM
i sense an endless loop of followers with followers with vow of poverty.

An endless chain of suck.

Mystic Muse
2010-03-08, 03:49 AM
to be fair, it doesn't suck so much when used on Paladin mounts since they don't get any money anyway.

faceroll
2010-03-08, 03:51 AM
to be fair, it doesn't suck so much when used on Paladin mounts since they don't get any money anyway.

I think it's quite a clever use on a paladin mount. It adds nice bonuses. You could even get away equipping it, since it's the paladin's money being spent.

Rainbownaga
2010-03-08, 05:58 AM
Note that part of the requirement of the vow of poverty is giving one's share of treasure to charity, and it specifies that you cannot deliberately reduce your share so as to benefit your team-mates.

Does the mount get a share of the treasure? Personally, I'd allow the feat providing the entire party agreed to give a share of the party's treasure to a charity of the mount's choosing.

Also the mount has to be and remain exalted, whatever that would mean :smallconfused:

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-08, 06:06 AM
I think it's quite a clever use on a paladin mount. It adds nice bonuses. You could even get away equipping it, since it's the paladin's money being spent.

Nope. The horse can't borrow the paladin's gear without losing the feat.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-08, 06:08 AM
A mount should probably be wearing at least some gear provided by its rider, whether that rider is a paladin or not. Mounts are kinda squishy otherwise. That said, if the mount's intelligence is 3 or higher VoP can make sense, but it's kinda difficult to RP, since the mount really does need some concept of monetary values to give up. If the paladin took VoP too I'd have absolutely no problem with it.

Rainbownaga
2010-03-08, 06:12 AM
Also note that while this may be fair for a paladin's mount, it should be clear that a druid's animal companion should never get this kind of cheese, even (and particularly) if they are awakened.

faceroll
2010-03-08, 06:13 AM
Nope. The horse can't borrow the paladin's gear without losing the feat.

But it can drink his potions or ride on his magic carpet. Hrm.

JaronK
2010-03-08, 06:14 AM
I'd probably only allow it if the Paladin had the same vow. That way there's not confusion as to how much should be in the mount's share. Of course, a Paladin with the vow would be rather weak, but I guess they could use a longspear.

Far nastier would be a Druid with this on his Animal Companion. Take whatever feats are necessary to make the companion good and intelligent, and there you go.

And then there's the supermount...

JaronK

Mystic Muse
2010-03-08, 06:16 AM
Well, the only problem with the Paladin taking it is that it's a pretty subpar feat for them. I actually calculated it and if you'd be willing to just accept 10 for each of the resistances instead of 15 at level 20 you'll still have about 310,00 gold even if you somehow manage to spend 50,000 on consumables.

There are also very few exalted feats actually worth taking so the bonus exalted feats aren't really very good.

faceroll
2010-03-08, 06:25 AM
I'd probably only allow it if the Paladin had the same vow. That way there's not confusion as to how much should be in the mount's share. Of course, a Paladin with the vow would be rather weak, but I guess they could use a longspear.

Far nastier would be a Druid with this on his Animal Companion. Take whatever feats are necessary to make the companion good and intelligent, and there you go.

And then there's the supermount...

JaronK

I think an Animal Companion with a headband of intellect could do it. It'd retain it's animal type, but have the requisite int score to have an alignment.

Would super mount with the vow be any better than just equipping it?

Mystic Muse
2010-03-08, 06:28 AM
I think an Animal Companion with a headband of intellect could do it. It'd retain it's animal type, but have the requisite int score to have an alignment.

Would super mount with the vow be any better than just equipping it?

Yes, because while the feat isn't great it does give about the equivalent of 388,000 gold to the Mount. The mount doesn't get he same amount of Gold as a PC so giving it the equivalent of 388,000 is rather nice.

2xMachina
2010-03-08, 06:34 AM
RAW, it works.

DMs generally won't allow it though.

faceroll
2010-03-08, 06:36 AM
Yes, because while the feat isn't great it does give about the equivalent of 388,000 gold to the Mount. The mount doesn't get he same amount of Gold as a PC so giving it the equivalent of 388,000 is rather nice.

You'll see that the fellow I quoted said both mount & rider should have the feat. Also, supermount is like a 100 HD monstrosity. He would benefit more ftom 500,000 or 600,000 gp of items, while his rider uses the remainder to just not die.


Vow of Poverty shouldn't apply to animals at all.

Horses don't own the equipment used to ride them, nor the armor that protects them, nor the harnesses that allow them to pull wagons or carry cargo. All of those things are owned by the person who owns (or uses) the animal. People might refer to gear that are only used with/on an animal (my horse's saddle, my dog's leash, my cat's brush) as belonging to the animal, but this is a semantic convention, not an accurate description of ownership.

Bonuses should only be granted when the disadvantage actually means something. Animals don't get bonuses for not being able to speak, because they can't speak anyway. A horse shouldn't get a bonus for Vow of Poverty because horses don't own goods.

Paladin's don't ride animals. They ride magical creatures summoned from the plane of angels, gifted with sapience and blessed by their deity in their service of the righteous.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-08, 07:38 AM
Hmm... I was thinking of getting Celestial Companion for my VoP druid anyway, so this would make a very good addition. All I have to do now is give my companion in the current game a share of the treasure so there is some justification for it!:smallbiggrin:

JaronK
2010-03-08, 07:42 AM
I think an Animal Companion with a headband of intellect could do it. It'd retain it's animal type, but have the requisite int score to have an alignment.

Would super mount with the vow be any better than just equipping it?

Can't have the headband and the vow! And you can't Awaken animal companions. I think the Supermount is the way to do this. And I think it's better for two people to have VoP than to have normal WBL, though it's close in many ways. At least the mount can probably fly normally.

JaronK

Quietus
2010-03-08, 08:02 AM
Honestly? I'd allow it, flat out. It's not game breaking to allow a Paladin's mount to have AC and resistances, and ... oh no, my horse has mind blank. And doesn't need to eat. I WOULD, however, rule that if the PALADIN falls short of Exalted status, his warhorse would be nudging him toward that - and if the Paladin did anything questionable (with a broad definition of questionable, to a point), the warhorse would leave him.

Flickerdart
2010-03-08, 08:14 AM
Haha, now I want to play that...a Paladin with a Mount that provides moral guidance.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-08, 08:29 AM
Can't have the headband and the vow! And you can't Awaken animal companions. I think the Supermount is the way to do this. And I think it's better for two people to have VoP than to have normal WBL, though it's close in many ways. At least the mount can probably fly normally.

JaronK

A 2 int Animal Companion which was the subject of a wish for intelligence would qualify.

Alternately, a familiar would qualify, if you can find a way to get it a feat.

Telonius
2010-03-08, 08:34 AM
Then it doesn't affect the mount, and the only thing you have to worry about is the family jewels since you won't be allowed to buy a saddle.

On the plus side, it makes it a little easier to keep a Vow of Chastity.

Indon
2010-03-08, 09:12 AM
A 2 int Animal Companion which was the subject of a wish for intelligence would qualify.

Paladin mounts are animals from the celestial planes.

I'm pretty sure that would make them celestial creatures (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm), who have an int of at least 3 already.

Natael
2010-03-08, 10:55 AM
I've got myself a ranger with the exalted companion feat, giving him a blink dog companion, since the doggy's got 10 int, I made sure to give him VoP, which gives some nice little stat boosts and touch of golden ice ^^

Probably do need to start insisting on some monatary donations to church, and while my ranger does not personally have VoP, he still runs fairly exalted like, and is rather loose with his funds toward doing good.

hamishspence
2010-03-08, 10:59 AM
Haha, now I want to play that...a Paladin with a Mount that provides moral guidance.

Dragon mentioned the issue of what happens if the mount is smarter than the player character "How embarrassing. What will the other mounts say?" :smallbiggrin:

Mark Hall
2010-03-08, 11:40 AM
I would likely require the Paladin (or wizard) to have at least one other feat for why they have such a special animal companion.

OracleofWuffing
2010-03-08, 01:22 PM
Yes, because while the feat isn't great it does give about the equivalent of 388,000 gold to the Mount. The mount doesn't get he same amount of Gold as a PC so giving it the equivalent of 388,000 is rather nice.
...I think the next town I make has to have a racket of rogues that are stealing VoP mounts from Paladins and selling them on the black market.

pffh
2010-03-08, 02:01 PM
...I think the next town I make has to have a racket of rogues that are stealing VoP mounts from Paladins and selling them on the black market.

Well couldn't the paladins just dispand the mounts and then summon them again the next day?

2xMachina
2010-03-08, 02:08 PM
Also, VoP mounts have enough Int to kick you for stealing them. (Actually, kidnap would be more appropriate, since 3+ int are characters)

Mystic Muse
2010-03-08, 02:27 PM
How does supermount get 100+ HD?

OracleofWuffing
2010-03-08, 02:51 PM
Well couldn't the paladins just dispand the mounts and then summon them again the next day?
Town-wide trap that's set to explode all of the orphanages if a Paladin dismisses his or her mount. I don't need to craft it, I just need to convince Sir Fallsalot it exists.


Also, VoP mounts have enough Int to kick you for stealing them. (Actually, kidnap would be more appropriate, since 3+ int are characters)
Sounds like a job for mindrape!

Also, I, too, am curious of Supermount. Is there a link I have not clicked?

Frosty
2010-03-08, 02:52 PM
Hey, since Familiars have Int...can they also take Vow of Poverty somehow? Or at least a Familiar Companion if you're an Arcane Hierophant?

Ormur
2010-03-08, 03:27 PM
Now I just picture a pretty normal character with an insufferable paladinish mount/familiar/animal companion that's constantly lecturing his master and sneering at his "lavish" lifestyle.

Eurus
2010-03-08, 03:33 PM
No, no. The real question is... can an intelligent magic item take Vow of Poverty? :smallbiggrin:

...Yeah, okay, technically they don't have hit dice or feats. But what if you animate it?

Malificus
2010-03-08, 03:51 PM
Town-wide trap that's set to explode all of the orphanages if a Paladin dismisses his or her mount. I don't need to craft it, I just need to convince Sir Fallsalot it exists.

But they 'dismiss' naturally anyway. They only stay for level x 2 hours. Even after level 12, when it lasts long enough for him to get another summon mount charge, it would still go away briefly. That would just make it the paladin's mission to beat down the group of rogues, and get them to disarm it, or tell him where it is so he can have someone else do it.

OracleofWuffing
2010-03-08, 04:04 PM
But they 'dismiss' naturally anyway.
The trap goes off when the Paladin dismisses. Naturally dismissing goes away as normal, and is expected to happen after the mount is sold. At that point, the rogues throw a smoke bomb and/or amnesia dust, scream "all sales final!" and run for it. Tomorrow, they steal the same Paladin's mount (I think you can agree with the notion that perhaps the Paladin is still around trying to solve this crime ring even without his trusted friend) and repeat the process again.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-03-08, 08:25 PM
How does supermount get 100+ HD?I believed I proved its not possible if you want the coolest dragon mounts (by conservative interpretations). But ooooh was I close. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142554)


I, too, am curious of Supermount. Is there a link I have not clicked?I am not the originator of the idea. But I have fully optimized/perfected it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142554)