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View Full Version : scrolls suck for learning new spells EDIT: +Spell trade protocols +roleplay info



taltamir
2010-03-09, 06:44 AM
I always see people refer to "buying scrolls" in order to learn new spells as a wizard. I don't know why people insist on saying scrolls are a good way to acquire spells, they are the absolute WORST way to acquire new spells.

The best way is of course collegiate.

The second best way is to get access to someone's spellbook for free... this is either a quest reward, the result of joining a guild, looting it off a corpse of an enemy wizard, or stealing it from a still living enemy wizard or just trading spell X for spell Y (you let me copy from your book, I will let you copy from mine). Cost? 100gp per spell level. nothing with blessed book. If the DM is nazi about it then have multiple PCs who are wizards, each gets 4 different spells on level up and they copy from each other.

the third best way is to pay a wizard for the service of copying from his spellbook. Cost is 50gp per spell level for service +100 GP per spell level to scribe (waived by blessed book)

the fourth and absolutely worst way is to use scrolls, a consumable resource worth money and XP.
cost is (for a minimum CL scroll with no expensive material component or XP component) 25*SL*(SL*2-1) + 100 SL.
Where SL = Spell level.
The +100 is waived if you have blessed book.
SL*2-1 = Caster level.

So scribing a 9th level spell costs the following with each method:
1. free
2. 900gp, or free with blessed book.
3. 1350gp, or 450gp with blessed book.
4. 4725gp, or 3825gp with blessed book.

As you can clearly see, scrolls absolutely suck for learning new spells.
With blessed book you can actually make money. Every level you learn new spells, put them in a mundane spellbook. Then COPY Those into your blessed book (for free), then sell your mundane spellbook for 50gp per page. (of course, you can just keep on buying blessed books, filling them up, and selling them for massive profit).

EX. your collegiate wizard became level 10, he gains 4 spells of SL5 for free... he puts them in a blank new book which costs 15gp. He copies those spells into his blessed book for free... he then sells the mundane book for 5x4x50 = 1000gp. making a neat 985gp profit.

EDIT:
for spell trade protocols see post 49: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8045574&postcount=49

For roleplay info see post 58: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8052409&postcount=58

Oslecamo
2010-03-09, 06:51 AM
The best way is of course collegiate.

Good, but scrolls are still best as collegiate gives you two spells per level, but scrolls have no cap.



The second best way is to get access to someone's spellbook for free... this is either a quest reward, the result of joining a guild, looting it off a corpse of an enemy wizard, or stealing it from a still living enemy wizard or just trading spell X for spell Y (you let me copy from your book, I will let you copy from mine). Cost? 100gp per spell level. nothing with blessed book.

Assuming that you find NPC wizards. Wich isn't very likely when the campaign is in the orc wastelands or something like that. And said NPC wizards walk around with their spellbooks in their pockets instead of extradimensional safe spaces.

Like one of my DMs once said, if you were a wizard and a random stranger asked to borrow your super valuable spellbook for a measly 100GP, would you allow him? Not unless you've got a pretty solid trust relation with said wizard.



EX. your collegiate wizard became level 10, he gains 4 spells of SL5 for free... he puts them in a blank new book which costs 15gp. He copies those spells into his blessed book for free... he then sells the mundane book for 5x4x50 = 1000gp. making a neat 985gp profit.
A nice trick, but it demands a blessed spellbook, wich is bloody expensive, and then the profit isn't that much for 10th level. One extra wand of cure light wounds and some spare change. Not very hot.

Plus, scrolls don't cost you feats. Collegiate wizard could have been used for some much more valuable metamagic or item creation feat.

taltamir
2010-03-09, 06:57 AM
Assuming that you find NPC wizards. Wich isn't very likely when the campaign is in the orc wastelands or something like that. And said NPC wizards walk around with their spellbooks in their pockets instead of extradimensional safe spaces.
You are a wizard... finding and reaching them isn't a problem... do you know the speed on a phantom steed? not to mention teleport later on.


Like one of my DMs once said, if you were a wizard and a random stranger asked to borrow your super valuable spellbook for a measly 100GP, would you allow him? Not unless you've got a pretty solid trust relation with said wizard.
Actually, you need to study it in his presence so that he can explain the spell to you. And unless he is showing you how, you would trigger the traps on the book.
it especially helps if said random stranger is doing an X for Y exchange (aka, you have your own spellbook out as well).
besides, copying spellbooks costs half price and time, so you can make an extra especially for trades (which isn't consumed in the process).

but yes all of the above are not ideal... that is why you do not trade spells with RANDOM STRANGERS.
A wizard should make some wizard friends. You aren't gonna get it off of every random stranger.


A nice trick, but it demands a blessed spellbook, wich is bloody expensive, and then the profit isn't that much for 10th level. One extra wand of cure light wounds and some spare change. Not very hot.
It pays for itself very rapidly... this trick isn't the only way to make money off of a blessed book.


Plus, scrolls don't cost you feats. Collegiate wizard could have been used for some much more valuable metamagic or item creation feat.
Collegiate gives you about 15% more money then your WBL at EVERY level. it starts out really high, then goes down until at its worse it is 12% over it at around level 10, and then it goes back up again. +15% WBL (at no XP cost) is a GREAT choice for a feat.

Roderick_BR
2010-03-09, 07:21 AM
No one said it was "the best" as in cost, but in availability. Way easier to find a magemart (tm) with scrolls to sell, than finding wizards with spare time and willing to teach you stuff.

Find scrolls or spell books as treasure is essentially the same thing.

Collegiate can be used when available. Maybe such thing just doesn't exists in the campaign world? Or requires huge fees to enter (that you'd spend on scrolss anyway), or very high levels, which makes scrolls more reliable at low levels.

Or........ the DM restricts what books you can have, so you can only learn spells with core mechanics? Like, finding spellbooks and scrolls. Or buying them.

Oslecamo
2010-03-09, 07:24 AM
You are a wizard... finding and reaching them isn't a problem... do you know the speed on a phantom steed? not to mention teleport later on.

If I'm a mid level wizard, I would make sure to cover my tracks as best as possible to prevent rivals from scry and killing me. A wizard who lets himself be found won't have very usefull spells on his spellbook.




It pays for itself very rapidly... this trick isn't the only way to make money off of a blessed book.


Collegiate gives you about 15% more money then your WBL at EVERY level. it starts out really high, then goes down until at its worse it is 12% over it at around level 10, and then it goes back up again. +15% WBL (at no XP cost) is a GREAT choice for a feat.

And there's that eberron feat that reduces crafting cost by 25%. That's even more WBL for a feat if you're so worried about money.

taltamir
2010-03-09, 07:25 AM
No one said it was "the best" as in cost, but in availability. Way easier to find a magemart (tm) with scrolls to sell, than finding wizards with spare time and willing to teach you stuff.
This is simply not true unless done so by DM fiat.
Scrolls cost GP and XP to create, and are only useful for very specific spells (where min CL and min DC is irrelevant)


Find scrolls or spell books as treasure is essentially the same thing.
Spellbooks are not consumed when scribed, and can be sold after the fact. Scrolls are destroyed when scribed from.


Collegiate can be used when available. Maybe such thing just doesn't exists in the campaign world? Or requires huge fees to enter (that you'd spend on scrolss anyway), or very high levels, which makes scrolls more reliable at low levels.
Collegiate is ONLY available at level 1. but your DM is free to ban it or modify it, but to say it is only for "very high levels" makes no sense.


Or........ the DM restricts what books you can have, so you can only learn spells with core mechanics? Like, finding spellbooks and scrolls. Or buying them.
even better reason to take collegiate.

Basically, travel to the largest city in the world, or the most magically inclined one at least... you will fine whole libraries of spells, and a bunch of wizards willing to sell spells to you from a spellbook.

here is a little factoid. The cost you pay someone for copying a spell from his book is equal to the cost that person will incur to make a second copy of said spell in a new book. So they can charge you AHEAD of time, use your money to scribe a second copy of that spell in a new book, and then let you use said book to copy it into your book.
if you do steal it they loose nothing.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-09, 07:33 AM
Any spell, 100 gp:

Copy any 1st level spell in your book onto another page, which costs the 100 gp. Prepare Secret Page.

Go to an individual/organization which permits copying spells for a fee, typically 50 gp per spell level but their price is irrelevant. Study the desired spell, make the Spellcraft check, but don't copy it into your book. Pretend you failed the spellcraft check and could not understand the spell, in-character blame the poor quality of the copy you studied and refuse to pay their fee. Leave, cast Secret Page to turn that one-page 1st level spell into the spell you just finished studying.

taltamir
2010-03-09, 07:59 AM
just don't get hit with dispell magic :P
funny thing, blessed book requires secret page to craft.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-09, 08:08 AM
just don't get hit with dispell magic :P

Dispel Magic would have to be targeted at the book itself to do anything. Arguably, that particular page would have to be specifically targeted, and if the book were shut the caster wouldn't even have line of effect.

Petrocorus
2010-03-09, 09:38 AM
G
Assuming that you find NPC wizards. Wich isn't very likely when the campaign is in the orc wastelands or something like that. And said NPC wizards walk around with their spellbooks in their pockets instead of extradimensional safe spaces.


For the newbie that i am, what kind of extradimensional safe space? Portable hole?

Volkov
2010-03-09, 09:45 AM
Dispel Magic would have to be targeted at the book itself to do anything. Arguably, that particular page would have to be specifically targeted, and if the book were shut the caster wouldn't even have line of effect.

Heaven help you if it's an adamantine horror(s) or else those spells on that spellbook are all going bye-bye.

Harperfan7
2010-03-09, 10:01 AM
You are completely right OP, but the fact is its rarely that easy. If you can, do it, if not, stick to scrolls.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-09, 12:30 PM
For the newbie that i am, what kind of extradimensional safe space? Portable hole?

Enveloping Pit. Five times the hole that a Portable Hole claims to be.


A Portable Hole is actually a small (but deep) swimming pool without water.

taltamir
2010-03-09, 02:14 PM
You are completely right OP, but the fact is its rarely that easy. If you can, do it, if not, stick to scrolls.

true, if you CAN'T find a spell in any other superior way, you might have to resort to scrolls... but it should be your last resort, not your choice.

ericgrau
2010-03-09, 02:22 PM
That's the thing. Often you must get scrolls.

erikun
2010-03-09, 02:38 PM
The best way to save money on scrolls: Choose your spells carefully, so that your 2/level cover basically whatever you'll need.

Yes, getting a spellbook is cheaper (per spell) than getting a scroll. This is mitigated by the fact that most of the spells in any one spellbook will not be useful to you. Buying a single scroll is a lot more efficient than waiting to find a spellbook that may have the spell you want, or trying to convince some random Wizard to allow copying spells with your lovely 0-ranks Diplomancy.

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-09, 02:47 PM
If I'm a mid level wizard, I would make sure to cover my tracks as best as possible to prevent rivals from scry and killing me. A wizard who lets himself be found won't have very usefull spells on his spellbook.

If you're a mid level wizard, you'd best darn well not be leaving enemies behind you, just piles of ash.


Collegiate wizard has proven to be worth it to me every time I've had to run a wizard. Things like down time and scrolls and spellbook loot are unheard of, so getting those extra spells are a matter of life and death.

Defiant
2010-03-09, 02:48 PM
I agree with the OP. I don't see why people are saying "best way of getting new spells is with scrolls".

Oslecamo
2010-03-09, 02:52 PM
If you're a mid level wizard, you'd best darn well not be leaving enemies behind you, just piles of ash.


Nah, that burns trough my 6th level slots too fast. Dominating/charming/mindraping is much more cost effecient, and with a little luck any pursuers will be misdirected by my slaves friends to the cave of that angry epic red dragon.:smalltongue:

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-09, 02:53 PM
Nah, that burns trough my 6th level slots too fast. Dominating/charming/mindraping is much more cost effecient, and with a little luck any pursuers will be misdirected by my slaves friends to the cave of that angry epic red dragon.:smalltongue:

And thus, you leave no enemies behind, just friends and piles of ash :smallbiggrin:

ericgrau
2010-03-09, 03:08 PM
I agree with the OP. I don't see why people are saying "best way of getting new spells is with scrolls".
I beg your pardon? A google search reveals that no one ever says that. Out of all the results just one person said something that might be interpreted that way and got shot down on the very next post. Whether he meant it as an affordable method I'll never know. I don't really see the point of this thread...

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 03:09 PM
If you can find someone to buy arcane scrolls off of you can find probably find a wizard with that spell in his book. Why?

Because if your buying a scroll of xxx its probably from a wizard. First every wizard has scribe scroll its a bonus feat, A sorcerer only has the feat if he takes it. Which I would guess most don't there is little need to scribe scrolls if your a spontaneous caster.

Second, well a sorcerer can't cast say 3rd level spells until sixth level would that not mean the minimum CL for a sorcerer made fireball scroll is 6th instead of five?

If I want to buy a scroll of teleportation the most likely person to possess such and item or be capable of acquiring it is a wizard who knows the spell.

Xan_Kriegor
2010-03-09, 03:35 PM
The reason that scrolls are the most commonly referred to way of getting new spells is this: they're consistently in most games. Yes, there are other ways to get spells (borrowing your friend's spellbook), but the availability of that option is entirely up to the DM and what he gives you, the Wizard. Your Wizard might have a ton of friends with spellbooks they'd be happy to share, or he might have no friends, and all other Wizards are so paranoid that if you so much as greet them they start casting spells at you. On the other hand, scrolls are (mostly) everywhere. Kill some [generic monster], and there's a chance you'll get a scroll as loot. Wanna head back to town after a hard day's adventuring? You can buy scrolls at Ye Olde Magic Shoppe. As an added bonus, there's a much higher chance of you getting the spell you want if you buy from a shop.

You say that scrolls cost XP (and GP) to scribe. Yes, that's true. However, it doesn't cost the Wizard that's scribing the scroll into his spellbook that XP. The XP cost has already been paid. For that reason, the XP cost is pretty much irrelevant.

I'm not saying that getting spells from scrolls is the best option, I'm just saying that it's consistently in most games, and is slightly easier on the DM than trying to figure out what extra spells he wants you to get from your friend Joe's spellbook. By all means, get Collegiate Wizard for more free spells and charm some Wizards (magically or otherwise) to borrow their books, but it's just less frequent in most games.

TL;DR: Scrolls are in most games, and less work for the DM. But yes, other methods are more cost effective.

Oblivious
2010-03-09, 03:56 PM
DMs can and should limit you to scrolls (and spellbooks as loot) most of the time for balance reasons. Clearly copying from another wizard is less expensive, but it's equivalent to giving a fighter magic weapons and armor that don't count against his wealth by level.

Collegiate Wizard is an incredibly strong feat if you compare the price of scrolls to expected wealth.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-09, 05:01 PM
I am inclined to agree, but the problem is other methods of obtaining spells are rare. Here, take a look:

Recaster: 2 spells, both of which have some restrictions.

Wyrm Wizard: IIRC, it's one spell every other level. However, I believe I am mistaken on this. Either way, the class isn't worth taking for more than 2 levels.

Mage of the Arcane Order: Possibly the best option.

Captured Spellbook: Only obtainable through DM Fiat (as any Optimizer will tell you: You found the Wizard's Spellbook? How the hell did that happen?), even by RAW (Random Treasure never results in spellbooks being generated, other than one item from the DMG).

Scrolls: The most abundant way of adding spells. Also the most expensive barring independent research.


Scrolls just happen to be the most common item the DMG Random Treasure Charts will give you. No one likes using scrolls (save for the people who don't know how much of a trap they are), but sometimes you gotta deal with it.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-03-09, 05:09 PM
Isn't there a cost listed somewhere for sharing spells with other wizards? I think I read somewhere that other wizards would typically charge a fee for transcribing spells from their spellbooks.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-09, 05:19 PM
Isn't there a cost listed somewhere for sharing spells with other wizards? I think I read somewhere that other wizards would typically charge a fee for transcribing spells from their spellbooks.

Typically, 50gp/spell level. However, that is an optional fee done only if the Wizard in question says so. Between PCs, I've seen them trade spells at no charge.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 05:24 PM
Isn't there a cost listed somewhere for sharing spells with other wizards? I think I read somewhere that other wizards would typically charge a fee for transcribing spells from their spellbooks.

Its been mentioned alot.


DMs can and should limit you to scrolls (and spellbooks as loot) most of the time for balance reasons. Clearly copying from another wizard is less expensive, but it's equivalent to giving a fighter magic weapons and armor that don't count against his wealth by level.

HOW is it equivalent? A fighter can only use magic weapons and armor to help himself directly.(it helps indirectly as he kills things easier).

But many wizard spells help the entire party or are utility based, every fighter wants the wizard to cast things like haste or heroism and teleport is always useful. And remember a wizard not only must pay for the scroll/fee but the 100gp per page. Until they acquire a blessed book for 12,500 gp

The point of playing a wizard instead of a sorcerer is the expanded spell versatility but limiting them to buying scrolls and whatever spells you happen to have the NPC wizards use is to limiting and makes absolutely no sense.

The fact that the cost to pay a wizard a fee for copying spells shows that method of learning spells is actually intended.


Typically, 50gp/spell level. However, that is an optional fee done only if the Wizard in question says so. Between PCs, I've seen them trade spells at no charge.

Every campaign I've ever been in that included a wizard at at least one scene where the PC wizard and an NPC wizard traded a few spells. Usually an NPC of plot importance.

taltamir
2010-03-09, 06:19 PM
The reason that scrolls are the most commonly referred to way of getting new spells is this: they're consistently in most games. Yes, there are other ways to get spells (borrowing your friend's spellbook), but the availability of that option is entirely up to the DM and what he gives you, the Wizard. Your Wizard might have a ton of friends with spellbooks they'd be happy to share, or he might have no friends, and all other Wizards are so paranoid that if you so much as greet them they start casting spells at you. On the other hand, scrolls are (mostly) everywhere. Kill some [generic monster], and there's a chance you'll get a scroll as loot. Wanna head back to town after a hard day's adventuring? You can buy scrolls at Ye Olde Magic Shoppe. As an added bonus, there's a much higher chance of you getting the spell you want if you buy from a shop.

that makes no sense whatsoever. the DM controls the availability of both, and can and often DOES restrict scroll access. If you have a ye olde magic shoppe then it should feature "scribing books" with one spell each that you may pay to scribe from (each such book pays for itself after a single such scribe).
and why would "generic monsters" have scrolls, they can't use them unless they have very high UMD or are wizards themselves.


You say that scrolls cost XP (and GP) to scribe. Yes, that's true. However, it doesn't cost the Wizard that's scribing the scroll into his spellbook that XP. The XP cost has already been paid. For that reason, the XP cost is pretty much irrelevant.
I am saying that as a wizard I'd have to be a moron to scribe scrolls for cash. it costs me XP.
If I want to sell someone a spell, I would scribe a copy of it into a brand new spellbook, and have him pay me ahead of time to copy said spell; AND put a deposit. At worst he steals it and I turn a modest profit (for keeping the deposit), at best he returns it and I have got a brand new spellbook that cost me NOTHING.


I'm not saying that getting spells from scrolls is the best option, I'm just saying that it's consistently in most games, and is slightly easier on the DM than trying to figure out what extra spells he wants you to get from your friend Joe's spellbook.
that is a ridiculous statement. If I go to the local magic mart (you said there is one), then the DM decides EXACTLY which spells are available for copying from joe's (the owner) spellbook, and exactly which spells are available in scroll form. If I ask for a spell he doesn't want to give me, than said spell is not available in either form. there is 0 extra effort on his part.

EX:
wizard: ok, I go to the magic mart
DM: alright, it is a nice tower in the rich section of town, the owner is called joe, he asks you what you want today.
PC: show me all the spells you have
DM: "you don't even know what you want? stop wasting my time, either be specific or get out"
PC: fine fine... does he have shivering touch in a spellbook for copying?
DM: no
PC: does he have it as a scroll
DM: no
PC: does he have fly?
DM: he has fly, in both scroll form and in a copying book.
PC: ok, I want to pay to scribe it

EX2:
wizard: ok, I go to the magic mart
DM: alright, it is a nice tower in the rich section of town, the owner is called joe, he asks you what you want today.
PC: show me all the spells you have
DM: he has any spell under 4rd level, in the PHB and SC, higher level spells just ask me specifically.
PC: alright, I want shivering touch/
DM: no
PC: you said he has all spells under 4th level.
DM: yes but that spell is broken, you can't have it.
PC: does he have fly?
DM: he has fly, in both scroll form and in a copying book.
PC: ok, I want to pay to scribe it

nightwyrm
2010-03-09, 06:22 PM
that makes no sense whatsoever. the DM controls the availability of both, and can and often DOES restrict scroll access. If you have a ye olde magic shoppe then it should feature "scribing books" with one spell each that you may pay to scribe from (each such book pays for itself after a single such scribe).
and why would "generic monsters" have scrolls, they can't use them unless they have very high UMD or are wizards themselves.

Some DM uses the random treasure generator tables.

Bibliomancer
2010-03-09, 06:29 PM
Currently, I'm playing a wizard in a RHoD campaign, so I don't have time to scribe spells. To minimize this drawback, I'm playing an elven generalist with the collegiate wizard and aerenal arcanist feats, allowing me to gain 6 new spells each time I level up. If I had time, I would probably find a college with which to engage in a spell exchange program.

That said, the reason why scrolls are often available when the previous methods are restricted is that is costs enough money that the DM often considers this to be a reasonable way to gain access to new spells without breaking the game (although if you're the only wizard in the party, it's probably a little late for that). It is not logical, and most NPC wizards would not use this method, but from a player's point of view it makes sense because it works without any strings attached and without a limit (not so for relying on leveling up or joining a guild).

Secondarily, you can thank the artificers for all those scrolls floating around. (Alternatively, wizards are only allowed to use their Roleplaying Bonus Experience Points to scribe scrolls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html).)

taltamir
2010-03-09, 06:29 PM
Isn't there a cost listed somewhere for sharing spells with other wizards? I think I read somewhere that other wizards would typically charge a fee for transcribing spells from their spellbooks.

I listed it under "third best option"
it is 50gp per SL... add that to the 100gp per SL in magic ink, and you get 150gp per SL to learn a new spell.

taltamir
2010-03-09, 06:31 PM
Some DM uses the random treasure generator tables.

facepalm... ok that explains things...
Still, capturing a scroll you are often better off selling it / keeping for emergency and paying someone to scribe a copy.

Bibliomancer
2010-03-09, 06:34 PM
I listed it under "third best option"
it is 50gp per SL... add that to the 100gp per SL in magic ink, and you get 150gp per SL to learn a new spell.

However, that price is absurdly low, considering the level of risk a wizard would be taking by letting you near their spellbook.


facepalm... ok that explains things...
Still, capturing a scroll you are often better off selling it / keeping for emergency and paying someone to scribe a copy.

Scrolls are very useful in certain situations. However, if you capture a utility spell, it would be better to add it to your spellbook, since wizards only very rarely run out of spells for the day.

taltamir
2010-03-09, 06:40 PM
Currently, I'm playing a wizard in a RHoD campaign, so I don't have time to scribe spells. To minimize this drawback, I'm playing an elven generalist with the collegiate wizard and aerenal arcanist feats, allowing me to gain 6 new spells each time I level up. If I had time, I would probably find a college with which to engage in a spell exchange program.

where is the aerenal arcanist feat from and what does it do?
Also: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html


However, that price is absurdly low, considering the level of risk a wizard would be taking by letting you near their spellbook.
They take no risk at ALL!
A brand new book costs 15gp... copying a spell from your own spellbook to a new spellbook costs 50gp per page and takes half speed (you can do two spells a day).
The cost to have access to someone's spellbook is 50gp per page.
As you see, the prices match. You should make a single spell book per SPELL you wish to give people access to, first scriber will pay for the magic ink, second one you will turn a profit on.


Scrolls are very useful in certain situations. However, if you capture a utility spell, it would be better to add it to your spellbook, since wizards only very rarely run out of spells for the day.
Use the above method to add it to your book, then sell the scroll... you will make thousands of GP in the process (unless its a really low level spell)

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 06:42 PM
However, that price is absurdly low, considering the level of risk a wizard would be taking by letting you near their spellbook.

Scrolls are very useful in certain situations. However, if you capture a utility spell, it would be better to add it to your spellbook, since wizards only very rarely run out of spells for the day.

Maybe your wizards rarely run out of spells for the day, but in my group we don't rest unless we have to. Well at least the spells I need anyway. A couple scrolls of utility spells are useful for those times you didn't prepare it that day.

As for the risk to the book, if the wizard sits by your side and helps you study the spell its fairly minimal as he's right there and has access to any defenses his workship has. The true risk is to the buyer, who while studying his new spell, is quite vulnerable to any traps the seller has in his lab.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 06:45 PM
This of losing spellbooks is vastly exaggerated.

Have you never let someone borrow a book to read? Or a CD to copy? Are you worried about the borrower stealing it?

The overall level of nefariousness assumed to think someone will steal your spellbook when you are exchanging spells is very high.

Sure, it might be an issue sometimes, but pretty often it won't be.

Kobold-Bard
2010-03-09, 06:47 PM
Don't know if it's been mentioned but you still need to pay the 50gp to buy a Scroll of the Spell for Blessed books, the book just covers the scribing costs.

Assuming you can't find a friendly Wizard of course.

taltamir
2010-03-09, 06:47 PM
As for the risk to the book, if the wizard sits by your side and helps you study the spell its fairly minimal as he's right there and has access to any defenses his workship has. The true risk is to the buyer, who while studying his new spell, is quite vulnerable to any traps the seller has in his lab.

he is also vulnerable to any traps in the book itself... a sepia snake sigil for example will incapacitate him, allowing the "seller" to steal HIS spellbook (and property, and kill him for XP). and you are immune to your own sepia snake sigils...

mmm... Ok that cinches it, everyone keeps on repeating the "risk"... and there is a ton of risk if done wrong, but done right there is no risk at all..
So I am going to solve this right now... give me a few minutes and I will write out detailed protocols for safely exchanging spells via books.


Don't know if it's been mentioned but you still need to pay the 50gp to buy a Scroll of the Spell for Blessed books, the book just covers the scribing costs.

Assuming you can't find a friendly Wizard of course.

its been mentioned ad nasium... and 50gp is to copy it from another book, buying a scroll costs 25gp*spell level*min caster level for that spell level (which is 2*spell level-1).

So a level 5 spell scroll costs 1125gp. if you pay someone to copy it from a book it costs 250gp... make a special "copy book" with just that one spell costs him 265gp (250gp + 15gp)
As you can see, it is the best way.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 06:50 PM
he is also vulnerable to any traps in the book itself... a sepia snake sigil for example will incapacitate him, allowing the "seller" to steal HIS spellbook (and property, and kill him for XP). and you are immune to your own sepia snake sigils...

mmm... Ok that cinches it, everyone keeps on repeating the "risk"... and there is a ton of risk if done wrong, but done right there is no risk at all..
So I am going to solve this right now... give me a few minutes and I will write out detailed protocols for safely exchanging spells via books.

I'll be interested in seeing them. But honestly, the most serious issue is just long-term incentive. If you become known for cheating wizards this way then wizards won't cooperate. If you are in any organization with other wizards, this will quickly become a problem.

Zeful
2010-03-09, 06:53 PM
Yes, scrolls suck for scribing spells. Wizards have it way to easy as it is with the mere existence of BBB and other wizards. If you as a wizard want the cheapest way of getting spells, you should work for it. Having a fraternity of wizards who will trade spells for free and always lack spells you have shatters verisimilitude in so many ways that it shouldn't be considered for any setting or play-style.

Kobold-Bard
2010-03-09, 06:54 PM
...its been mentioned ad nasium... and 50gp is to copy it from another book, buying a scroll costs 25gp*spell level*min caster level for that spell level (which is 2*spell level-1).

So a level 5 spell scroll costs 1125gp. if you pay someone to copy it from a book it costs 250gp... make a special "copy book" with just that one spell costs him 265gp (250gp + 15gp)
As you can see, it is the best way.

In that case I retract my gibberish.

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-09, 06:59 PM
Umm... any way we can push more profit out of this? maybe with Geometer levels?

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 07:01 PM
Yes, scrolls suck for scribing spells. Wizards have it way to easy as it is with the mere existence of BBB and other wizards. If you as a wizard want the cheapest way of getting spells, you should work for it. Having a fraternity of wizards who will trade spells for free and always lack spells you have shatters verisimilitude in so many ways that it shouldn't be considered for any setting or play-style.

Not as easy as cleric or druids.

SensFan
2010-03-09, 07:06 PM
This of losing spellbooks is vastly exaggerated.

Have you never let someone borrow a book to read? Or a CD to copy? Are you worried about the borrower stealing it?
When I lend a friend Harry Potter, I don't have to worry that I go from being able to re-write the laws of science to being an average farmer if the book isn't returned to me.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 07:07 PM
When I lend a friend Harry Potter, I don't have to worry that I go from being able to re-write the laws of science to being an average farmer if the book isn't returned to me.

Yes, but if you are a sensible wizard you have multiple spellbooks anyways.

erikun
2010-03-09, 07:15 PM
This of losing spellbooks is vastly exaggerated.

Have you never let someone borrow a book to read? Or a CD to copy? Are you worried about the borrower stealing it?

The overall level of nefariousness assumed to think someone will steal your spellbook when you are exchanging spells is very high.

Sure, it might be an issue sometimes, but pretty often it won't be.
Yes, I have let people borrow books, specifically D&D books.

Yes, I have lost books this way, specifically D&D books. It wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that half of the books I've gives to friend came up "missing" by the time they were to be returned.

Needless to say, I have a few less friends these days.

If I was a wizard, and my book was my single means of work and livelihood, I would not be handing it out to random strangers to play with. I certainly would not be doing so for 50 gp a page when I could charge them considerably more at higher levels by selling scrolls. If the PCs are so money-conscious, why are the NPCs assumed to be complacent idiots?

Draxar
2010-03-09, 07:25 PM
Where exactly does the '50gp/spell level' thing for transcribing from a spellbook come from?

taltamir
2010-03-09, 07:27 PM
alright, all done... copy pasta:

Safe spell trading protocols:

Dangers of traditional methods: when a wizard sells access to his spellbook for purpose of copying spell to another wizard s/he does not know or trust, there are various risks to both the buyer and seller.

The buyer might be trying to steal the seller’s spellbook, the seller might plant a trap his spellbook to incapacitate and rob the buyer, both have to meet and do their research in a distracting public place, or one of them needs access to the other’s sanctum. Once they familiarize each other with their spellbooks, and know where the traps are, they can kill each other with impunity to steal the other’s spellbook. Also, the seller should spend the whole day with the buyer to ensure that his book does not leave his sight. Even if the buyer himself is not hostile, a third party might target both when the seller has no access to his book.

All of these possibilities are rather unlikely, most wizards would not resort to such trickery, especially if they wish to share spells with other wizards in the future. But the possibility exists. Therefore, a series of simple protocols to allow safe and lucrative sharing of spells between wizards must be planned.

Protocol:
A blank spellbook costs a mere 15gp, it is also known that a wizard can copy a spell from a book he owns to a new book at half price and half time. Which means it takes 50gp per page to scribe. This 50gp is not wasted, as a spellbook is valued for sale at 50gp per filled page. The typical cost for “the right to copy” a spell from another’s spellbook is 50gp per spell level (page). This all adds up very neatly.

Spells (with the exception of very low level spells such as cantrips) should each be copied into a single spellbook. Here is a chart detailing the cost of creating such spellbooks, their resale value/right of copy value (the two are the same)

{table]Spell Level|cost to create copybook|value of copybook=copyright price|scribe cost for buyer|total cost to buyer
1|65|50|100|150
2|115|100|200|300
3|165|150|300|450
4|215|200|400|600
5|265|250|500|750
6|315|300|600|900
7|365|350|700|1050
8|415|400|800|1200
9|465|450|900|1350[/table]

When a buyer contacts a seller requesting to buy a spell, the seller can hand him a book containing only that spell. The buyer pays in advance for the access cost, and puts down a deposit equal to cost of creating the copybook. Thus a person wishing to copy a 5st level spell will pay 250gp + 265gp deposit. He will receive his deposit back when he returns the copybook to the seller.

At worst, the buyer steals the copybook. The seller still made his money. He is out a day’s work (creating a new copybook), but the deposit paid for the copybook, and the payment for the copyright was profit. (had the deposit not included the 15gp cost of a blank book, the buyer would have actually made a 15gp profit by stealing said book; so even though the market value is X, the deposit should be X+15gp)

At worst, the seller has disappeared with all the money, including the deposit. The buyer can then keep the seller’s copybook to sell the same spells to others. He has not lost anything either. (he saved a day having to create his own copybook)
In either worst case scenario (in terms of money) the buyer and the seller lose nothing.

Those worst case scenarios assume no true malicious intent, it is always possible for the seller to include arcane traps in the book, a spell written with non magical ink (and thus useless), and for the buyer to return the book with spell traps in it. That can be used to assassinate mages.

The solution is quite simple, summon a celestial monkey and have him read each book as it is returned in a stone room, alone. He will trigger any traps.
Extra possibility: Each spellbook contains 100 pages, weighs 3 lbs, and costs 15gp. It might be possible to create custom “copybook” with just the right number of pages, at a lower cost. (say, 5gp for cover and 1gp per 10 pages… a 10 page book would thus be 6gp)… not a big issue really.

taltamir
2010-03-09, 07:33 PM
Where exactly does the '50gp/spell level' thing for transcribing from a spellbook come from?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm

Replacing and Copying Spellbooks
A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If she already has a particular spell prepared, she can write it directly into a new book at a cost of 100 gp per page (as noted in Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, above). The process wipes the prepared spell from her mind, just as casting it would. If she does not have the spell prepared, she can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book.

Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.


Yes, but if you are a sensible wizard you have multiple spellbooks anyways.

normally you cannot afford it... with my copying method you can :)


If I was a wizard, and my book was my single means of work and livelihood, I would not be handing it out to random strangers to play with. I certainly would not be doing so for 50 gp a page when I could charge them considerably more at higher levels by selling scrolls. If the PCs are so money-conscious, why are the NPCs assumed to be complacent idiots?

creating a copybook takes 1 day, afterwards it can give you profit equal to the cost of its creation every day at no extra effort. And its loss is no big deal since the first customer paid for its creation value. Crafting a scroll literally burns away at your soul. (XP)


Umm... any way we can push more profit out of this? maybe with Geometer levels?

Geometer reduces the cost of creation. Namely, cost of creation is now 65gp regardless of spell level.
However, it is a harder sell because others have a tougher time deciphering your glyphs. Furthermore, you only make a little more money on the first duplication, all subsequent sells will be equal profit.
So geometer means you will actually make a profit in liquid cash on your very first sale, instead of having all the profit in the form of a free copybook (property, can be sold for 50gp per page)

On a 9th level spell this means an extra 400gp in cash on your very first sale, but thats it.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-09, 07:34 PM
That's a well-done protocol. I'll have to remember it for future use.

ericgrau
2010-03-09, 09:58 PM
This of losing spellbooks is vastly exaggerated.

Have you never let someone borrow a book to read? Or a CD to copy? Are you worried about the borrower stealing it?

The overall level of nefariousness assumed to think someone will steal your spellbook when you are exchanging spells is very high.

Sure, it might be an issue sometimes, but pretty often it won't be.

There is a big difference between a $5 novel and your entire livelihood. Think of it more as loaning someone your car and house for the weekend. Not something you'd do without being there or else you'd have to greatly trust the person. And you would most certainly charge a stranger money for it.

The typical price according to the PH (pg. 179) is 50 gp x spell level, though many wizards may charge more for higher level spells or keep anyone from copying it for any price. This is in addition to the special materials cost of 100 gp x spell level.

One minor thing to add to Taltimir's protocol above: The buyer must prepare read magic in case he fails his spellcraft check. Getting help from the seller also works automatically, but incurs some of the dangers the protocol is trying to prevent.

Bibliomancer
2010-03-09, 10:28 PM
where is the aerenal arcanist feat from and what does it do?
Also: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html

It's from the Player's Guide to Eberron, and gives a +2 bonus to Knowledge (Arcana) and +1 Spell per level (essentially an alternate version of Collegiate Mage, except one less extra spell in exchange for not having to take it at 1st level).


There is a big difference between a $5 novel and your entire livelihood. Think of it more as loaning someone your car and house for the weekend. Not something you'd do without being there or else you'd have to greatly trust the person. And you would most certainly charge a stranger money for it.

Very true. However, this doesn't quite go far enough. Without proper precautions, its more akin to loaning someone your soul for the weekend, given how seriously wizards take their magic.

holywhippet
2010-03-09, 11:05 PM
The best way to learn new spells is by whatever means you can obtain them. It's ok to say "borrow someones spellbook", but if there are no friendly mages nearby that option is out. Even buying scrolls isn't an option if your DM hasn't placed any magic selling stores in the game world.

Depending on what restrictions the DM throws at you it's possible that your spells on levelling up might be all you get.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-09, 11:13 PM
Depending on what restrictions the DM throws at you it's possible that your spells on levelling up might be all you get.

In which case the DM should have warned you so you knew not to play a wizard.

holywhippet
2010-03-09, 11:38 PM
In which case the DM should have warned you so you knew not to play a wizard.

Even with that restriction a wizard is still pretty damn powerful - you just need to be careful with your spell selection.

Zeful
2010-03-10, 12:05 AM
In which case the DM should have warned you so you knew not to play a wizard.

Oh, no! My wizard won't have access to every arcane spell in existence, for free, despite that such a strategy would have invalidated all conflict within the setting. He will be horribly underpowered compared to classes like the Cleric or Rogue. How dare my DM deign to regulate the power of such a superbly balanced class.[/sarcasm]

Threads like this simply show why many DMs should throw 90% of Wizard related material out the window. Most of it is broken (i.e. it unnecessarily increases the power of an already powerful class), especially the core stuff like Baccob's Blessed Book and the Pearls of Power (taking away the wizard's only limitations was a stupid decision) and Foresight (way to invalidate the fundamental design of an entire archetype WotC).

Note: I am 150% serious about this.

taltamir
2010-03-10, 06:32 PM
Oh, no! My wizard won't have access to every arcane spell in existence, for free, despite that such a strategy would have invalidated all conflict within the setting.

to be fair, there are only a FEW spells you must have. a wizard can win DnD even without thousands of spells. and ~90% of the most broken spells are in core anyways. If anything, scribing a ton of spells is a trap, it wastes your money and time, which could have been spent better (time can be spent killing monsters for XP or casting spells for money, money can be used to buy items that increase CL or Int, etc).

For the leery DM:
There is a solution to the above if you are a DM... you can say that EVERY wizard does the above, and that the 2 free spells (or more with feats) you gain on levelup come from such trades. Sometimes you also buy spells copybooks with higher level spells that you can't access yet, so if you are in a dungeon and leveled up, it is assumed you had copybooks of your new spells which you carried with you. Everyone is also assumed to have a wizard library with a copybook per each spell they know, and some they haven't learned yet. the extra money you make from it goes into making copybooks, buying copybooks from other wizards of spells you are not high enough level to learn yet, and buying the magic ink for the free spells at levelup.

And the feats that give extra spells, like collegiate, actually means that you spend extra time trading spells rather then extra time training / studying. (ex: instead of spending extra time studying books that explain how to perform a still spell and adapt it to higher level spells, you trade more spells and earn more money from it, to fund purchase of more copybooks and magic ink).

Although, this does not mean banning the acquisition of new spells via this protocol. It means that you can't exploit the above to make money unless you specifically position yourself to do so; such as by starting a mage guild / school where you are the seniormost mage and the only source of high level spells if you wish to make extra money. Or using your WBL rewards to buy extra spells beyond those that are granted by your class levels and feats. (aka, it is assumed to you trade enough to finance the acquisition of 2 new spells per level; buying more cost money).
with some calculations, you can determine how many "buyers" each wizard will come across per week to maintain the 2 free spells per level if you do want to micro-manage this aspect of the game.

From a role-playing perspective:
Every wizard actually has a library instead of one damn book. A library made up of copybooks of spells known (created by yourself, or purchased), and copybooks you purchased of spells you don't know yet.

It also means that you can't just point at this thread and say to the DM "give me more money/spellbooks"... rather, you have to actually do something in game to position yourself as a high volume trader in spells (just as you would have to do something to position yourself as a high volume trader in magic items, silk, jewels, etc etc). A "low volume trader" (someone who never spent in character time setting up shop) is the traditional adventurer wizard, whose copybook trading merely funds his 2 free spells per level, nothing more, nothing less.

NPC wizards who never adventure probably have 2 of each "copybook" of their known spells; potentially in different locations. They use multiple small books to memorize spells each morning.
While adventurer wizards probably have 1 book with all their spells (which they carry) + 1 copybook per each additional spell (at home).

Riffington
2010-03-10, 10:07 PM
There is a big difference between a $5 novel and your entire livelihood. Think of it more as loaning someone your car and house for the weekend. Not something you'd do without being there or else you'd have to greatly trust the person. And you would most certainly charge a stranger money for it.


Also, in many campaigns wizards don't have access to "every spell". If you are one of very few wizards with "anticipate teleport", you might not want to spread that around. You might in fact be very paranoid that the guy who supposedly wants your lightning bolt is actually trying to get at your more personal spells.

Superglucose
2010-03-10, 10:29 PM
the fourth and absolutely worst way is to use scrolls, a consumable resource worth money and XP.
No, the absolute worst is to research them yourself. Instead of buying them at a market price of <4,000 for a level 9 spell, you have to "research" them at 9,000 gp for a level 9 spell.

The one exception is if they have an expensive material component or XP component (say... wish), in which case I think you can research them for 9,000 gp.

Draxar
2010-03-10, 10:55 PM
Oh, no! My wizard won't have access to every arcane spell in existence, for free, despite that such a strategy would have invalidated all conflict within the setting. He will be horribly underpowered compared to classes like the Cleric or Rogue. How dare my DM deign to regulate the power of such a superbly balanced class.[/sarcasm]

Threads like this simply show why many DMs should throw 90% of Wizard related material out the window. Most of it is broken (i.e. it unnecessarily increases the power of an already powerful class), especially the core stuff like Baccob's Blessed Book and the Pearls of Power (taking away the wizard's only limitations was a stupid decision) and Foresight (way to invalidate the fundamental design of an entire archetype WotC).

Note: I am 150% serious about this.

There's a difference between not getting access to every spell, and rarely if ever getting to look at another (living and therefore not 'loot') wizard's spellbook for 'free' spells, and getting every spell free.

I would say that the Wizard class assumes that a character will get more than the two base gained at level up, but won't have perfect access to spells.

As such, I would not consider it at all unreasonable to not want to play a Wizard if you knew that you were never going to get more than those 2 a level.

taltamir
2010-03-10, 11:08 PM
There's a difference between not getting access to every spell, and rarely if ever getting to look at another (living and therefore not 'loot') wizard's spellbook for 'free' spells, and getting every spell free.

I would say that the Wizard class assumes that a character will get more than the two base gained at level up, but won't have perfect access to spells.

As such, I would not consider it at all unreasonable to not want to play a Wizard if you knew that you were never going to get more than those 2 a level.

plus, if the DM making such limitations means you can expect the ban hammer to hit often and hit hard. so choose another 1st or 2nd tier class. Like cleric or druid, etc.


No, the absolute worst is to research them yourself. Instead of buying them at a market price of <4,000 for a level 9 spell, you have to "research" them at 9,000 gp for a level 9 spell.

The one exception is if they have an expensive material component or XP component (say... wish), in which case I think you can research them for 9,000 gp.

IIRC personal research doesn't specificy what the cost is, saying its basically up to the DM. Its not actually a fleshed out mechanic, but a suggestion for DMs to develop some sort of mechanic themselves.
if it is 1000gp x SL, then yes, that is an even worse way then scrolls (except for spells with an XP / expensive component cost which sends the scroll price above the research price)

the entire information available about it in the SRD is:

Independent Research
A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm
That is not a legitimate option since it has no rules; what I posted is literally all it says about independent research. Although for some reason I remember it specifying in one of the source books that such research takes 1 week per spell level in addition to the above.

also, cleric independent research:

Independent Research
A divine spellcaster also can research a spell independently, much as an arcane spellcaster can. Only the creator of such a spell can prepare and cast it, unless he decides to share it with others.

Psion independent research:

Independent Research
A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation.

Any kind of manifester can create a new power. The research involved requires access to a retreat conducive to uninterrupted meditation. Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power. At the end of that time, the character makes a Psicraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power. If the check fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying.

Ormur
2010-03-10, 11:37 PM
I think it's reasonable to expect that you'll be able to gain a few new spells through trading spell books, buying scrolls and finding spell books as loot but I wouldn't want a wizard to have access to all spells that the members of the wizard guilds of the world collectively knew which should reasonably include most every spell. Wizards in a pseudo-medieval setting might not also be governed by the maximization of profit but act more as a members of a medieval guild protecting their secrets from outsiders and regulating them within their own ranks to maintain a proper hierarchy.

Remember that irrational traditions and social constraints are the only thing that stands between your campaign and the Tippyverse. :smallbiggrin:

In a campaign I'm playing a wizard in the world also seems to be half-empty. There's a single magic shop with a monopoly on scrolls and magic items, most of the casters I've met haven't been wizards and almost all of the higher level wizards of the continent's wizard guild planeshifted away when they learned the world was dying. Not that I ever considered the possibility of borrowing other wizard's spell books.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-11, 12:23 AM
I think it's reasonable to expect that you'll be able to gain a few new spells through trading spell books, buying scrolls and finding spell books as loot but I wouldn't want a wizard to have access to all spells that the members of the wizard guilds of the world collectively knew which should reasonably include most every spell. Wizards in a pseudo-medieval setting might not also be governed by the maximization of profit but act more as a members of a medieval guild protecting their secrets from outsiders and regulating them within their own ranks to maintain a proper hierarchy.


This will vary wildly depending upon the organization, the dieties they worship, etc.

Vecna? Yeah...that guy is going to likely treat magical knowledge as arcane secrets to be kept generally close to the vest.

Mystra? Knowledge and Magic? Distributing knowledge of spells would be nigh onto veneration of their deity.

If you join the Arcane Order, it's reasonable to expect that the contacts you make there(being wizards themselves) would have spells that you could learn. Not for free necessarily, but learn.

Sure, you may not have every single spell available at will everywhere...but it shouldn't be terribly hard to expand your spellbook beyond the basic two a lev in anything like a normal D&D world.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-11, 12:26 AM
to be fair, there are only a FEW spells you must have. a wizard can win DnD even without thousands of spells. and ~90% of the most broken spells are in core anyways. If anything, scribing a ton of spells is a trap, it wastes your money and time, which could have been spent better (time can be spent killing monsters for XP or casting spells for money, money can be used to buy items that increase CL or Int, etc).

This is actually somewhat true. Im guilty of falling into this myself. People go generalist and get spellhappy because options are good, right? Well...options you never use still have a cost of aquisition... Especially early on, you don't want to drain yourself too rapidly learning everything under the sun.

taltamir
2010-03-11, 12:28 AM
This is actually somewhat true. Im guilty of falling into this myself. People go generalist and get spellhappy because options are good, right? Well...options you never use still have a cost of aquisition... Especially early on, you don't want to drain yourself too rapidly learning everything under the sun.

as they say, "Jack of all trades, master of none".
Specializing sacrifices options for power and it pays off. Taking metamagic feats that are only useful for one particular "trick" also pays off greatly. you should have a plan, and you should focus your effort into it. don't completely abandon all options, but do master something. I am also guilty of this.. as much as I know that you should ALWAYS focus specialize, I have a hard time bringing myself to do so. I just LOVE the idea of being a generalist too much.

Zeful
2010-03-11, 01:53 AM
There's a difference between not getting access to every spell, and rarely if ever getting to look at another (living and therefore not 'loot') wizard's spellbook for 'free' spells, and getting every spell free.True, and honestly even I'm not mean spirited enough to force a wizard to use only the spells they get at level up. But the number of spells their getting through other sources won't be very high (3-4 "new" spells from captured spell books, scrolls, and generous Wizards for a single spell level, on a good day).


I would say that the Wizard class assumes that a character will get more than the two base gained at level up, but won't have perfect access to spells.I agree, but the problem this thread creates is Player Entitlement. A newer who looks over the thread and sees that "OMG, I can get every spell for free!!11!" might take this to the DM in an attempt to get every spell for free. This creates unnecessary tension and confusion as the DM denies the player and now has to explain why. Tension leads to bad feelings and a lack of desire to play.

taltamir
2010-03-11, 06:16 AM
I agree, but the problem this thread creates is Player Entitlement. A newer who looks over the thread and sees that "OMG, I can get every spell for free!!11!" might take this to the DM in an attempt to get every spell for free. This creates unnecessary tension and confusion as the DM denies the player and now has to explain why. Tension leads to bad feelings and a lack of desire to play.

that is a possibility. but it is addressed in post #58

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-11, 06:53 AM
Just an interesting thing I noticed: if you're worried about your spellbook being stolen, a 2nd level geometer that uses the tattoo-spellbook option in the back of complete arcane could have up to 80 spells scribed right on his body. They'd have to skin you to get your spells away from you with that setup :smalltongue:

taltamir
2010-03-11, 07:01 AM
Just an interesting thing I noticed: if you're worried about your spellbook being stolen, a 2nd level geometer that uses the tattoo-spellbook option in the back of complete arcane could have up to 80 spells scribed right on his body. They'd have to skin you to get your spells away from you with that setup :smalltongue:

you could just use the alternative class feature called eidetic wizard. you give up familiar (which you can gain back with 1 feat later on), and you now memorize an infinite amount of spells... using magic incense that cost 100gp per spell level to memorize each spell.

Petrocorus
2010-03-11, 09:57 AM
you could just use the alternative class feature called eidetic wizard. you give up familiar (which you can gain back with 1 feat later on), and you now memorize an infinite amount of spells... using magic incense that cost 100gp per spell level to memorize each spell.

In what book you can find this ACF?

taltamir
2010-03-11, 02:34 PM
In what book you can find this ACF?

Dragon 357