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View Full Version : [3.5e] Binders, general build help



Sliver
2010-03-10, 02:19 PM
Well, I wanted to try it out for some time and now I have the chance but I am a bit baffled.

First, I found that many max out diplomacy. I understand there is some synergy to make a diplomancer out of them, but do binders need it, or it's just a nice bonus?

Basically, all sources are open to me.

Level 3, 2700gp starting wealth and stats are 16,15,13,10,8,8 (rolled, got a 5 but allowed to convert it to 8)

Nothing is set in stone but I thought of a Sun Elf with improved binding and expel vestige for a start. It's a 6 player party (including me) so I can live with lack of focus but I want to be as much competent and versatile as possible.

Thanks all!

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-10, 02:24 PM
Binders are one of the basic Diplomancer biulds (which abuse the poorly-balanced Diplomacy skill to make an army for nothing).


In general, Knight of the Sacred Seal and Scion of Dantalion are the PrCs a straight Binder will take. Anima Mage is the only other one worth mentioning (Disciple of Tenebrous is kinda poor).

Improved Binding is a must. Expel Vestige I have seen in play, and it makes a world of difference (ask the DM to house rule it to let you take it multiple times for more daily uses).

Kosjsjach
2010-03-10, 02:56 PM
...Level 3, 2700gp starting wealth and stats are 16,15,13,10,8,8 (rolled, got a 5 but allowed to convert it to 8)...

Just wanted to say, it is so refreshing to not see 2+ 18s and no stat lower than 14, but an actual plausible pure-rolled stat array.

I... I kinda want to hug you. :smalleek:

Sliver
2010-03-10, 03:01 PM
Well with sun elf I do have an 18 Cha.. Although I lose out Con which I invest the 15 in, but maybe I should invest the 15 in Dex and 13 in Con and be more sneakish? I don't have much in skills or scouting though, which is OK due to being 6th wheel I guess..

What vestiges would be good for me to bind on regular basis?

Optimystik
2010-03-10, 03:01 PM
Binder Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=137.0)

Enjoy

Thurbane
2010-03-10, 08:22 PM
You might find that the Hellbred race (FC2) has good synergy with a Binder (if you take the body aspect). The bonus Devil Touched feats slot in nicely alongside Binder abilities.

PanNarrans
2010-03-17, 05:44 PM
The Binder handbook has everything, but I did play a Binder and have enormous fun as the party scout binding Malphas.

I click my fingers, and a raven appears! Never gets old.

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 08:30 PM
The Binder handbook has everything, but I did play a Binder and have enormous fun as the party scout binding Malphas.

I click my fingers, and a raven appears! Never gets old.

Malphas freaks me out. Black tongue and teeth? Fall in love with everyone who says two words to you? Squick. The at-will (sort of) invisibility is nice though.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-17, 08:49 PM
Malphas freaks me out. Black tongue and teeth? Fall in love with everyone who says two words to you? Squick. The at-will (sort of) invisibility is nice though.

Now this seems to be the apropiate time for a question tha has been buggin me.

You only act influenced by the vestige when you fail your binding check right?

and the sign... IIRC you can suppres it at second level.

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 09:06 PM
You only act influenced by the vestige when you fail your binding check right?

Correct; however, plenty of DMs (mine included) want to have their fun, and so can ask you to actually roleplay the binding. The DM is then free to apply a bonus - or penalty! - to the check depending on your performance.


and the sign... IIRC you can suppres it at second level.

You can only suppress it if you make a good pact (see above.) Also, some vestige abilities rely on the sign not being suppressed - though Malphas is thankfully not one of these.

Narazil
2010-03-17, 09:09 PM
You can only suppress it if you make a good pact (see above.) Also, some vestige abilities rely on the sign not being suppressed - though Malphas is thankfully not one of these.
This is one thing about Binders which has always struck me as odd.

They're fluffed out to be hunted by the churches - they worship pagans, after all.. But at first level, you HAVE to show your sign, whether it is an arrow underneath your skin, or horns. Good luck bluffing yourself out of that one.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-17, 09:10 PM
maybe I'll play a binder on our next campaing.... my DM loves RP and I actually am pasable diplomat in RL (for some reason when I hang out with my friend the responsability of treating with strangers such as in a restaurant, cinema or such ALWAYS fall on me:smallsigh:).

Hmmm

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-17, 09:14 PM
This is one thing about Binders which has always struck me as odd.

They're fluffed out to be hunted by the churches - they worship pagans, after all.. But at first level, you HAVE to show your sign, whether it is an arrow underneath your skin, or horns. Good luck bluffing yourself out of that one.

Which is why they're pretty rare. :smallwink:

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-17, 09:20 PM
They're fluffed out to be hunted by the churches - they worship pagans, after all.. But at first level, you HAVE to show your sign, whether it is an arrow underneath your skin, or horns. Good luck bluffing yourself out of that one.

So you have a sign. And? Here are the signs for the 1st-level vestiges:
Ram horns
Star-shaped brand on the left palm
Looking diseased
Face is stuck in a frown or smile
Gravelly voice

If a binder picks up Improved Binding, he can bind 2nd-level vestiges, which have the following signs:

Small teeth on your head
You're uglier and heavier
Teeth and tongue turn black
Arrowhead under your skin

Of those, only ram horns, star brand, black tongue and teeth, and the arrowhead would be immediately recognizable as something strange; depending on the size of the horns and the location of the arrowhead they might not be all that noticeable, if you don't talk to someone they won't notice the black teeth and tongue, and if you don't show them your hand they won't notice the star. If you do it right, you should never have to make a Bluff check at all.

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 09:21 PM
This is one thing about Binders which has always struck me as odd.

They're fluffed out to be hunted by the churches - they worship pagans, after all.. But at first level, you HAVE to show your sign, whether it is an arrow underneath your skin, or horns. Good luck bluffing yourself out of that one.

If you're in such a persecutory environment, bind Naberius. The only sign is that your voice gets raspy, and you get massive bonuses to all of your sweet-talking skills.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-17, 09:21 PM
This is one thing about Binders which has always struck me as odd.

They're fluffed out to be hunted by the churches - they worship pagans, after all.. But at first level, you HAVE to show your sign, whether it is an arrow underneath your skin, or horns. Good luck bluffing yourself out of that one.
Easy horns, I am an eight minotaur (or else minotaur blood line
Arrow underneath skin? the healer botched it and healed the wound without removing the arrow head.

:smallwink:Any more?

ninja'ed:smallannoyed:

Narazil
2010-03-17, 09:23 PM
Easy horns, I am an eight minotaur (or else minotaur blood line
Arrow underneath skin? the healer botched it and healed the wound without removing the arrow head.

:smallwink:Any more?
Problem is - Binders only have a handful of Vestiges to choose from at first level. The Inquisition probably knows what an arrow notched under the skin means, and would probably check with the handy first level spell "Detect Vestige". :smalltongue:

Thurbane
2010-03-17, 09:25 PM
Most of those signs are relatively easy to hide with mundane means. The arrow under the skin doesn't say it has to be in a prominent area, so unless you get strip searched... :smalltongue:

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-17, 09:26 PM
Problem is - Binders only have a handful of Vestiges to choose from at first level. The Inquisition probably knows what an arrow notched under the skin means, and would probably check with the handy first level spell "Detect Vestige". :smalltongue:

Is there such a spell? (I haven't read in detail ToM) well there goes my bluff

JaronK
2010-03-17, 09:28 PM
Well, I wanted to try it out for some time and now I have the chance but I am a bit baffled.

First, I found that many max out diplomacy. I understand there is some synergy to make a diplomancer out of them, but do binders need it, or it's just a nice bonus?

You don't need it, it's just that it's one of the best skills you can take if your DM actually lets it do what it says it does, and Naberius makes you very good at it. So, it's just a solid option, especially if you then take one level dips into Warlock and Marshal.


I want to be as much competent and versatile as possible.

Thanks all!

Binder 1/Archivist 3/Anima Mage 10/Tenebrous Apostate 5/Any casting PrC 1 (or just one more level of Archivist... and note that there's a divine adaptation of Anima Mage). Powerful as all heck, extremely versitile.

JaronK

Narazil
2010-03-17, 09:29 PM
Is there such a spell? (I haven't read in detail ToM) well there goes my bluff
Yes. It's a first level Cleric spell, with the intelligent name of "Detect Vestige". No Save, no SR.


Most of those signs are relatively easy to hide with mundane means. The arrow under the skin doesn't say it has to be in a prominent area, so unless you get strip searched... :smalltongue:
But it is up to the DM. I have bound that frigging Vestige on 5 different characters, and so far the arrow has been in: The neck, the neck, the neck, the arm, and the neck. Did I mention the neck? Scarf was high fashion that day.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-17, 09:32 PM
Yes. It's a first level Cleric spell, with the intelligent name of "Detect Vestige".

Hey no need to be condesending, as I don't own the ToM (one friend in my gaming group does though) so I haven't read the book in detail plus the only thing I really liked from that book was the Dark template.

Narazil
2010-03-17, 09:35 PM
Hey no need to be condesending, as I don't own the ToM (one friend in my gaming group does though) so I haven't read the book in detail plus the only thing I really liked from that book was the Dark template.
Oh, sorry, I'm not trying to be condescending towards you - it was directed at the very cleverly named spell. Because that is what it does, detect vestiges. Very clever. :smallsigh:

Edit: It's a Cleric 1, Paladin 1 and Sorcerer/Wizard 1 spell, apparently.

Thurbane
2010-03-17, 09:37 PM
So you have a sign. And? Here are the signs for the 1st-level vestiges:
Ram horns = large hat (ushanka or "pope" hat)
Star-shaped brand on the left palm = gloves
Looking diseased = plenty of people in a pseudo medieval society will look diseased. Maybe some make up or powder?
Face is stuck in a frown or smile = frown is an Emo, smile has a smutty mind! :smalltongue:
Gravelly voice = just so darn macho

Small teeth on your head = hat or wig
You're uglier and heavier = we can't all be pretty :smallbiggrin:
Teeth and tongue turn black = keep your mouth shut! Or a bandana over it, cowboy style.
Arrowhead under your skin = all depends where it is, but heavy robes or a burka (sp?) should do the trick

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 09:38 PM
Problem is - Binders only have a handful of Vestiges to choose from at first level. The Inquisition probably knows what an arrow notched under the skin means, and would probably check with the handy first level spell "Detect Vestige". :smalltongue:

Again, if there is an Inquisition, you bind Naberius. Disguise Self at will. Untrained skill checks. Take 10 on Bluff and Diplomacy checks even if being threatened, and rush Diplomacy checks to a standard action with no penalty. If you get caught with all that, you deserve it.

And really, sending whole inquisitions after 1st-level PCs isn't very fair. If Wizards are being persecuted, there isn't a whole lot one can do at level one to keep an entire magic-using organization off his trail. Ditto Warlocks, Incarnum etc.

Narazil
2010-03-17, 09:42 PM
Again, if there is an Inquisition, you bind Naberius. Disguise Self at will. Untrained skill checks. Take 10 on Bluff and Diplomacy checks even if being threatened, and rush Diplomacy checks to a standard action with no penalty. If you get caught with all that, you deserve it.

And really, sending whole inquisitions after 1st-level PCs isn't very fair. If Wizards are being persecuted, there isn't a whole lot one can do at level one to keep an entire magic-using organization off his trail. Ditto Warlocks, Incarnum etc.
I was imagining a scenario like the Binder being caught pants down by a travelling priest, with his horns active or something. Sure, you might be able to explain it, but if I was told to capture Binders, and I had a hunch that someone might be a Binder, I'd damn well spend one of my first level slots on a cast of Detect Vestige.

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 09:44 PM
I was imagining a scenario like the Binder being caught pants down by a travelling priest, with his horns active or something. Sure, you might be able to explain it, but if I was told to capture Binders, and I had a hunch that someone might be a Binder, I'd damn well spend one of my first level slots on a cast of Detect Vestige.

And again, if I was practicing Binding anywhere with an inquisition, I'd be an idiot to go around binding the vestige that sticks giant horns on my head instead of the one that lets me talk my way out of every jail in a hundred-mile radius.

Narazil
2010-03-17, 09:45 PM
And again, if I was practicing Binding anywhere with an inquisition, I'd be an idiot to go around binding the vestige that sticks giant horns on my head instead of the one that lets me talk my way out of every jail in a hundred-mile radius.
What Binder doesn't dumbstat his Wisdom? :smallbiggrin:

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 09:47 PM
What Binder doesn't dumbstat his Wisdom? :smallbiggrin:

Even somebody with 8 Wis would know that horns sprouting from their head is a bad idea.

And if all Binders are really that dumb, the Inquisition wins and there are no more Binders. Yay

Narazil
2010-03-17, 09:48 PM
Even somebody with 8 Wis would know that horns sprouting from their head is a bad idea.

And if all Binders are really that dumb, the Inquisition wins and there are no more Binders. Yay
I suppose. It could happen, though - not all Binders can Expel Vestiges, and are stuck with horns until the pact wears out.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-17, 09:50 PM
Ram horns = large hat (ushanka or "pope" hat)
Star-shaped brand on the left palm = gloves
Looking diseased = plenty of people in a pseudo medieval society will look diseased. Maybe some make up or powder?
Face is stuck in a frown or smile = frown is an Emo, smile has a smutty mind! :smalltongue:
Gravelly voice = just so darn macho

Small teeth on your head = hat or wig
You're uglier and heavier = we can't all be pretty :smallbiggrin:
Teeth and tongue turn black = keep your mouth shut! Or a bandana over it, cowboy style.
Arrowhead under your skin = all depends where it is, but heavy robes or a burka (sp?) should do the trick

Yeah, the ease of hiding them was sort of my point.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-17, 09:51 PM
What Binder doesn't dumbstat his Wisdom? :smallbiggrin:

I believe this falls more into common sense than into wisdom, but yeah in an scenario like the one you describe.. the best thing you can do is expel the vestige or hope that your rag-tag group of friends isn't againts hitting a holy man :smalltongue:

The Shadowmind
2010-03-17, 09:52 PM
Binder normally have average to above average INT scorers thought, so they will know wandering into town is a bad idea, but not wise enough to realize a large hat could cover the horn problem.

Thurbane
2010-03-17, 10:05 PM
Yeah, the ease of hiding them was sort of my point.
Oh, I am in agreeance with you, just giving some examples off the top of my head. :smallwink:

Optimystik
2010-03-17, 10:09 PM
I suppose. It could happen, though - not all Binders can Expel Vestiges, and are stuck with horns until the pact wears out.

Why are we so hung up on Amon anyway? Because the binder picture has that dwarf binding him? He sucks. Any Binder that uses him deserves to get caught and the crap summarily beat out of him.