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taltamir
2010-03-14, 12:56 AM
What are some of the best way for a sorcerer to close the gap between them and a wizard?

I noticed that on the PHB2 p61 there is an alternate class feature where a sorcerer swaps his ability to take a familiar with the "metamagic specialist", which makes his metamagic take normal amount of time to cast (and; more importantly, allows him to use quicken)
And if you really miss your familiar, you can always take one using a single feat.

What are some of the other ways to eliminate the advantages of a wizard over a sorcerer? (aside from asking your DM to houserule it of course :P)

Specifically, the biggest issues I see are:
1. Metamagic - no quicken, metamagic takes longer to cast.
SOLVED: Metamagic Specialist solves this one.
2. Spells known - you know very few, you can only swap a few on levelup.
SOLVED (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8081412&postcount=36): Arcane Disciple (spell domain) mostly solves this one.
3. Spell Progression - you are a level behind on max spell level.
4. Spells per Day - focused specialist means the wizard actually has MORE spells per day than you of max spell level, although with lower level spells you both have 6+stat spells per day.

Please cite the source (if you can) of the solution to each of those problems.

Kylarra
2010-03-14, 01:04 AM
MotAO (CArc) is a usual culprit for spells "known".

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-14, 01:05 AM
Vow of Poverty and the Dark Chaos Shuffle let you make up for those bonus feats.

And, of course, white dragonspawn loredrake Dragonwrought kobold allows you to bridge the gap in when you get your spells.

Both have fairly obvious sources (do I really have to cite?).

Godskook
2010-03-14, 01:11 AM
Arcane Spellsurge + DMM(Persist) + Turning + Metamagic

Don't know the source of the first one, and the others are more general/SRD, so yeah. You now have 'quicken', essentially. Be warned that its fairly nova-ish, though.

Thurbane
2010-03-14, 01:11 AM
Rapid Metamagic (CM) allows a spontaneous caster to use metamagic without increasing casting time.

Corey
2010-03-14, 01:12 AM
Arcane Spellsurge -- 7th Level spell from either Dragon Magic or Races of the Dragon -- solves the lack of Quicken quite nicely once you get that high.

Corey
2010-03-14, 01:13 AM
MotAO (CArc) is a usual culprit for spells "known".

As written, it requires one to prepare spells. What's the workaround?

Thurbane
2010-03-14, 01:16 AM
There's a feat (Arcane Preparation?) that allows spontaneous casters to memorize spells, and therefore qualify for the PrC.

Kylarra
2010-03-14, 01:17 AM
As written, it requires one to prepare spells. What's the workaround?As Thurbane said, arcane preparation (also from CArc). Interestingly enough, this also "solves" the metamagic issue, assuming you know ahead of time which metas you want on spells.

Pluto
2010-03-14, 02:00 AM
What are some of the other ways to eliminate the advantages of a wizard over a sorcerer? (aside from asking your DM to houserule it of course :P)
Sheer brute force in spell output.

Arcane Fusion, especially.

Also, as generic as this advice is, spells with the most versatile effects.
(Things like Major Creation, Polymorph, Shadow Conjuration, Planar Binding... pretty much spell that redirects you to a different book or spell list.)

magic9mushroom
2010-03-14, 02:12 AM
1. Metamagic - no quicken, metamagic takes longer to cast.

Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic) or Rapid Metamagic (Complete Mage).


SOLVED: Metamagic Specialist solves this one.

Wrong. Metamagic Specialist is 3/day.


2. Spells known - you know very few, you can only swap a few on levelup.

Runestaves (Magic Item Compendium), Knowstones (some Dragon I don't have), Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane), spells that can mimic other spells (lots of books)


3. Spell Progression - you are a level behind on max spell level.

a) Kobold/Draconic Rite of Passage (Races of the Dragon)/Draconic Reservoir/Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (Races of the Dragon Web Enhancement: Kobolds: Playing to their Strengths).

b) White Dragonspawn (Dragonlance Campaign Setting)/Reducing Level Adjustments (Unearthed Arcana)

c) Kobold/Dragonwrought (Races of the Dragon)/Loredrake (Dragons of Eberron). Of debatable legality and so cheesy that you won't be allowed to take it; included for completeness.


4. Spells per Day - focused specialist means the wizard actually has MORE spells per day than you of max spell level, although with lower level spells you both have 6+stat spells per day.

Fixing the spell-level problem fixes this automatically. If you want more spells/day, use Tainted Scholar. WARNING: EXTREME CHEESE DETECTED. LIKELIHOOD OF OVERHEAD ANVILS SPONTANEOUSLY APPEARING: VERY HIGH.

Starscream
2010-03-14, 02:22 AM
Spells Known is one of a sorcerer's biggest weaknesses. There are a couple of PrCs that remedy this. Sand Shaper is my favorite, it gives you over 40 new spells known.

However, you will lose one caster level in the process (You only need a one level dip to get the new spells). But I think the fact that a sorcerer gets more spells per day anyway makes up for it (you'll still be a bit ahead of a wizard 20 in that department).

magic9mushroom
2010-03-14, 02:30 AM
Spells Known is one of a sorcerer's biggest weaknesses. There are a couple of PrCs that remedy this. Sand Shaper is my favorite, it gives you over 40 new spells known.

However, you will lose one caster level in the process (You only need a one level dip to get the new spells). But I think the fact that a sorcerer gets more spells per day anyway makes up for it (you'll still be a bit ahead of a wizard 20 in that department).

Focused Specialist sends its regards. Unless you start on the White Dragoncheese Kobold.

taltamir
2010-03-14, 02:41 AM
Sheer brute force in spell output.
I don't get it


Arcane Spellsurge + DMM(Persist) + Turning + Metamagic

Don't know the source of the first one, and the others are more general/SRD, so yeah. You now have 'quicken', essentially. Be warned that its fairly nova-ish, though.

how can a sorcerer get divine metamagic or turning?

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-14, 02:50 AM
I don't get it



how can a sorcerer get divine metamagic or turning?

I'm almost certain to be ninja'd, but sacred exorcist gets you turning for a 1 level dip. Costs you a spell know though.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-14, 02:51 AM
I don't get it

Arcane Fusion = 2 spells with 1 action. Combine with Arcane Spellsurge and you can get more spells off per round than a Wizard.


how can a sorcerer get divine metamagic or turning?

Divine Metamagic only applies to divine spells, so... Rainbow Servant's non-arcane list spells count, though Rainbow Servant is crap for Sorcerers.

Turning can be gotten by various means. Sacred Exorcist is one.

Itous
2010-03-14, 02:57 AM
another good feat is:

Practiced Caster (Complete Arcane) increases your caster level by +4

so when you roll a magic missile check you roll damage as if you were a level 5 (also most people i know tend to forget magic missile effects more then one target providing they are standing no more then 15ft appart)

taltamir
2010-03-14, 02:58 AM
Practiced Caster (Complete Arcane) increases your caster level by +4

so when you roll a magic missile check you roll damage as if you were a level 5 (also most people i know tend to forget magic missile effects more then one target providing they are standing no more then 15ft appart)

to a maximum equal to your hit dice.
A level 1 human sorcerer has 1 hit dice, he gets nothing with the spell.
A sorcerer 1/fighter 1 will get +1 CL from that feat. A sorcerer 1/fighter 2 will get +2 from that feat, and so on.

and magic missile affecting multiple targets requires that you SPLIT THE DAMAGE between them.

Also, wizards have magic missile AND can take practiced spellcaster.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-14, 03:14 AM
another good feat is:

Practiced Caster (Complete Arcane) increases your caster level by +4

so when you roll a magic missile check you roll damage as if you were a level 5 (also most people i know tend to forget magic missile effects more then one target providing they are standing no more then 15ft appart)

Practised Spellcaster is good if and only if your caster level is less than your hit dice.

If your caster level is less than your hit dice, you have violated Rule 1: Thou shalt not give up caster levels.

Optimystik
2010-03-14, 03:44 AM
If your caster level is less than your hit dice, you have violated Rule 1: Thou shalt not give up caster levels.

I was never overly impressed by that rule. A CL 17 Wizard is down to what, tier 2? Boo-hoo, I can still tell reality to shut up and sit down, it just takes me longer.

Personally, as long as I get 9th-level spells pre-epic that's really all that should matter.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-14, 03:49 AM
I was never overly impressed by that rule. A CL 17 Wizard is down to what, tier 2? Boo-hoo, I can still tell reality to shut up and sit down, it just takes me longer.

Personally, as long as I get 9th-level spells pre-epic that's really all that should matter.

I wasn't being entirely serious, although it must be noted that prior to the levelling out at 9th level spells, very few PrC abilities are worth a caster level.

taltamir
2010-03-14, 01:56 PM
I was never overly impressed by that rule. A CL 17 Wizard is down to what, tier 2? Boo-hoo, I can still tell reality to shut up and sit down, it just takes me longer.

Personally, as long as I get 9th-level spells pre-epic that's really all that should matter.

I always felt it had more to do with the PATH to 17th level... A 17th level wizard is tier 1, nearly indistinguishable from a 20th level wizard actually. they both have 9th level spells, a few more slots don't make much a difference anymore.

The problem is that for many many levels you will be far behind on spellcasting, and since casting is so good, you will be well behind the power curve. being a 11th level character that casts as a 8th level wizard hurts. being 20th level and casting as wizard 17 isn't a big deal. I have played multiclass casters and the losss of caster levels is devastating. This is especially true if you are stuck with first and maybe second level spells in the total level 5 to 10 range. (And *shudder* LA); also, it hurts more if you don't min max.

Gnorman
2010-03-14, 02:44 PM
I always felt it had more to do with the PATH to 17th level... A 17th level wizard is tier 1, nearly indistinguishable from a 20th level wizard actually. they both have 9th level spells, a few more slots don't make much a difference anymore.

The problem is that for many many levels you will be far behind on spellcasting, and since casting is so good, you will be well behind the power curve. being a 11th level character that casts as a 8th level wizard hurts. being 20th level and casting as wizard 17 isn't a big deal. I have played multiclass casters and the losss of caster levels is devastating. This is especially true if you are stuck with first and maybe second level spells in the total level 5 to 10 range. (And *shudder* LA); also, it hurts more if you don't min max.

If you're hurting for lack of higher spells, you're just not using your lower ones well enough. A level 17 wizard can still mess things up with Glitterdust and Web, after all.

Still, I feel ya. Hitting that new level of spells makes playing a wizard so satisfying - a wealth of new options, new ways of bending people to your will, new ways of exploring the world, new ways of snuffing out the lives of your enemies and raising their tattered corpses as mindless slaves in your great, burgeoning empire.

taltamir
2010-03-14, 11:34 PM
If you're hurting for lack of higher spells, you're just not using your lower ones well enough. A level 17 wizard can still mess things up with Glitterdust and Web, after all.

Still, I feel ya. Hitting that new level of spells makes playing a wizard so satisfying - a wealth of new options, new ways of bending people to your will, new ways of exploring the world, new ways of snuffing out the lives of your enemies and raising their tattered corpses as mindless slaves in your great, burgeoning empire.

web is an awesome spell.. it is also extremely rare for me to encounter something in a location where i can ANCHOR it.
And your 17th level wizard isn't doing jack squat with web because all the enemies now have freedom of moment/equivalent.

glitterdust is always a nice spell to have, but your chances of fighting an enemy which is immune are very high later on.
When you are level 10 and you are incapable of combat due to low AC, HP, and BAB, and your best spells are grease, color spray, web, and glitterdust... well, you have a problem. (not that these aren't awesome spells, but they could be better...)
Shape spell is also very very powerful (particularly the 4 independent 10 foot diameter bursts mode). shaped glitterdusts, webs, grease and colorspray are much much better than the regular versions. But take higher level slots (which you don't have).

and that is if you are a tactical master and know to use those 4 spells.. the average player is a blaster or just randomly selects "thematic" spells and doesn't metamagic. where this is truly devastating as a handicap.

Actually, I am not sure who is hurt more. The min maxer loses access to higher level spells which he could use to amazing effect, what with knowing exactly which spells to select. the casual player is screwed because he doesn't have access to real blasting spells, CL for blasting, or his "thematic" (ex, only take necromancy spells) spells are much lower levels

taltamir
2010-03-14, 11:40 PM
I just had a mind shattering idea...
is there a way for the sorcerer to take divine spells, or take a divine domain?
the spell domain from SC would give him access to practically all other arcane spells...

Oh, and the PrC mage of the arcane order (is that what its called?) will be godly for a sorcerer... he can get ANY arcane spell he wants, he just has sot "pay it back" later on. This is perfect for a sorcerer.

Godskook
2010-03-14, 11:43 PM
Speaking from the game I'm currently in, losing 2 caster levels has not caused me serious trouble. I mostly bemoan my distinct lack of spells/day versus our party's full-casters(and at only L6, the lack is significant), but I handle alright, especially since my specialty is BC, and neither full-caster spends a lot of time there, with the cleric doing a more healing+buff role, and the evoker being a classic evoker.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-14, 11:47 PM
Arcane Spellsurge + DMM(Persist) + Turning + Metamagic

Don't know the source of the first one, and the others are more general/SRD, so yeah. You now have 'quicken', essentially. Be warned that its fairly nova-ish, though.

DMM can only be used on divine spells not arcane.

Godskook
2010-03-14, 11:54 PM
DMM can only be used on divine spells not arcane.

Huh, so it does. My bad.

taltamir
2010-03-15, 12:00 AM
also, sanctum spell requires another metamagic feat as a prereq.
so you need precocious apprentic, random meta feat and sanctum spell to qualify at level 1. which is a little difficult. Also you need to perform a grand service to elfkind which you are not going to be able to do at level 1.

Adonis1x23
2010-03-15, 02:03 AM
I just had a mind shattering idea...
is there a way for the sorcerer to take divine spells, or take a divine domain?
the spell domain from SC would give him access to practically all other arcane spells...


This needs to be answered.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-03-15, 02:29 AM
Wrong. Metamagic Specialist is 3/day.3+INT. Makes the Sorc a little more MAD, but considering he wants the extra skills anyway, and he's originally SAD, it's not a big deal. Also, I find this combines well with Arcane Preparation (which you're getting if you're going into MotAO). You prepare some metamagic'd spells you know you're going to want to cast, and then you have 3+INT more instances to spontaneously apply that metamagic in the cases you didn't anticipate.

Wings of Flurry and Wings of Cover are really good, so there's something. As was previously mentioned, both the Wizard and Sorcerer can nova, but Arcane Spellsurge makes him quite the efficient nova machine.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-15, 02:29 AM
Practised Spellcaster is good if and only if your caster level is less than your hit dice.

If your caster level is less than your hit dice, you have violated Rule 1: Thou shalt not give up caster levels.

With Early Entry, giving up CL isn't a bad idea.

For example:

Wizard 1 / Archivist 1 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Ardent 1 / Cerebremancer 7

Casts as Wizard 18 (CL 20) -9th level spells
Archivist 11 (CL 15) - 6th level spells
Ardent 12 (CL 12) - 6th level powers

Gives you most of the good stuff, and very little loss of caster level. And what you gain is more than worth it.

Rule 1 of casting is basically: Better make it worth it.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-15, 03:44 AM
This needs to be answered.

The feat Arcane Disciple lets you pick up a domain as an arcane caster... however
Each day, you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domains spells of each level.
The spells aren't free either there just available to be learned.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 04:38 AM
3+INT. Makes the Sorc a little more MAD, but considering he wants the extra skills anyway, and he's originally SAD, it's not a big deal. Also, I find this combines well with Arcane Preparation (which you're getting if you're going into MotAO). You prepare some metamagic'd spells you know you're going to want to cast, and then you have 3+INT more instances to spontaneously apply that metamagic in the cases you didn't anticipate.

Wings of Flurry and Wings of Cover are really good, so there's something. As was previously mentioned, both the Wizard and Sorcerer can nova, but Arcane Spellsurge makes him quite the efficient nova machine.

Metamagic Specialist + Obtain Familiar is strictly inferior to Rapid Metamagic, and at high levels you want that familiar.

And Arcane Spellsurge makes the debate moot anyway.

With Early Entry, giving up CL isn't a bad idea.

For example:

Wizard 1 / Archivist 1 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Ardent 1 / Cerebremancer 7

Casts as Wizard 18 (CL 20) -9th level spells
Archivist 11 (CL 15) - 6th level spells
Ardent 12 (CL 12) - 6th level powers

Gives you most of the good stuff, and very little loss of caster level. And what you gain is more than worth it.

Rule 1 of casting is basically: Better make it worth it.

I was kidding!

taltamir
2010-03-15, 04:41 AM
The feat Arcane Disciple lets you pick up a domain as an arcane caster... however
Each day, you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domains spells of each level.
The spells aren't free either there just available to be learned.

9 "anyspells" per day is still a whole ton of versatility. If it was a spell you need to cast often you would take it as a spell known.
I think this is a major breakthrough is sorcerer CharOpFu

EDIT: Actually, arcane disciple is an alternate class feature for clerics.
EDIT2: no, actually its BOTH.. there is an ACF called arcane disciple for clerics. And there is a feat with the exact same name too.

taltamir
2010-03-15, 05:02 AM
Ok this is awesome TM!


ARCANE DISCIPLE [GENERAL]
Choose a deity, and then select a domain available to clerics of that deity. You can learn to cast the spells associated with that domain as arcane spells.

Prerequisites: Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks, able to cast arcane spells, alignment matches your deityís alignment.

Benefit: Add the chosen domainís spells to your class list of arcane spells. If you have arcane spellcasting ability from more than one class, you must pick which arcane spellcasting ability this feat applies to. Once chosen, this decision cannot be changed for that feat. You may learn these spells as normal for your class; however, you use Wisdom (rather than the normal ability for your spellcasting) when determining the save DC for the spell. In addition, you must have a Wisdom score equal to 10 + the spellís level in order to prepare or cast a spell gained from this feat.
Each day, you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domains spells of each level.

Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time, you must select a different domain available to the same deity you chose the first time you selected the feat. For example, a character who chose Heironeous and the Good domain with his first selection could choose Law or War with successive selections of the same feat. He couldnít choose Protection, since that domain isnít available to clerics of Heironeous.

SPELL DOMAIN
Granted Power: You gain a +2 bonus on Concentration checks and Spellcraft checks.
Spell Domain Spells
1 Mage Armor: Gives subject +4 armor bonus.
2 Silence: Negates sound in 15-ft. radius.
3 AnyspellÜ: Prepare any arcane spell up to 2nd level.
4 Raryís Mnemonic Enhancer F: Wizard only. Prepares extra spells or retains one just cast.
5 Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, alternations, curses, and petrification.
6 Anyspell, GreaterÜ: Prepare any arcane spell up to 5th level.
7 Limited Wish X: Alters realityówithin spell limits.
8 Antimagic Field: Negates magic within 10 ft.
9 Mordenkainenís Disjunction: Dispels magic, disenchants magic items.

ANYSPELL
Transmutation
Level: Spell 3
Components: V, S, DF
(and possibly M, F, and XP)
Casting Time: 15 minutes
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
Anyspell allows you to read and prepare any arcane spell of up to 2nd level. You must have an arcane magical writing (a scroll or spellbook) on hand to cast anyspell. During the spellís 15-minute casting time, you can scan the spells available and choose one to read and prepare.
Once you choose and prepare an arcane spell, you retain it in your mind. The prepared spell occupies your 3rd-level domain spell slot. If you read the spell from a spellbook, the book is unharmed, but reading a spell from a scroll erases the spell from the scroll.
When you cast the arcane spell, it works just as though cast by a wizard of your cleric level except that your Wisdom score sets the save DC (if applicable). You must have a Wisdom of at least 10 + the arcane spellís level to prepare and cast it. Your holy symbol substitutes for any noncostly material component. If the spell has a costly material component (one to which a gold piece value is assigned), you must provide it. If the spell has another focus, you must provide the focus. If the spell has an XP component, you must pay the experience point cost.

ANYSPELL, GREATER
Transmutation
Level: Spell 6
This spell functions like anyspell, except you can read and prepare any arcane spell of up to 5th level, and the prepared spell occupies your 6th-level domain spell slot.

ok. so you WILL need to have a wizard spellbook with the spell you wish to prepare. But you can prepare any 1st and 2nd level spell using a 3rd level slot and up. And any 1 through 5 level spell using 6th level slot and up.

That knowledge religion is a problem for sorcerers... but its only 4 ranks. even cross class you can qualify quickly. Actually, on level 3 you can qualify for it, and take it with your 3rd level feat.
you then effectively get the option to convert one 3rd, one 4th, and one 5th level slot into preparing any arcane spell of level 0-2. And one 6th, one 7th, one 8th, and one 9th level slot to prepare any 0-5th level arcane spell you want.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-15, 05:12 AM
Ok this is awesome TM!






ok. so you WILL need to have a wizard spellbook with the spell you wish to prepare. But you can prepare any 1st and 2nd level spell using a 3rd level slot and up. And any 1 through 5 level spell using 6th level slot and up.

That knowledge religion is a problem for sorcerers... but its only 4 ranks. even cross class you can qualify quickly. Actually, on level 3 you can qualify for it, and take it with your 3rd level feat.
you then effectively get the option to convert one 3rd, one 4th, and one 5th level slot into preparing any arcane spell of level 0-2. And one 6th, one 7th, one 8th, and one 9th level slot to prepare any 0-5th level arcane spell you want.

Doesn't work.


The prepared spell occupies your 3rd-level domain spell slot.

If you do not have a Domain Spell Slot, you receive no benefit from Anyspell, as there is no slot for said spell to occupy.

Note: Domain Spell Slots are a specific type of spell slot possessed by clerics, and some PrC's. Without a slot of that type, spells such as these aren't very useful.

taltamir
2010-03-15, 05:16 AM
MotAO (CArc) is a usual culprit for spells "known".

what does it stand for and how do I implement it?


Vow of Poverty and the Dark Chaos Shuffle let you make up for those bonus feats.

I intentionally did not list bonus feat as an issue... both the wizard and the sorcerer should PrC ASAP, so the only thing the sorcerer misses out on is "craft scroll" and MAYBE the bonus feat at 5th level.
Also, Vow of Poverty is a huge NERF to any character.
And Dark Chaos Shuffle is of more use to the wizard (exchange his preselected feats into general feats of his CHOICE) If you allow Dark Chaos Shuffle you are actually expanding the gap between wizard and sorc, not closing it.


And, of course, white dragonspawn loredrake Dragonwrought kobold allows you to bridge the gap in when you get your spells.

Both have fairly obvious sources (do I really have to cite?).
Please do, and there are plenty of dragon related sources (dragon magic, races of the dragon, dragon compenidium, etc) I am now going to have to search for them. not too big a deal though, I have collected a selection of nice indexes.
I will be back once I have found them and read them and understood exactly what they do.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-15, 05:43 AM
also, sanctum spell requires another metamagic feat as a prereq.
so you need precocious apprentic, random meta feat and sanctum spell to qualify at level 1. which is a little difficult. Also you need to perform a grand service to elfkind which you are not going to be able to do at level 1.

Eh, flaws and backstory, respectively. And its not like a random metamagic feat is a bad thing to pick.

Sanctum/Arcane Fusion is a fun combo...depletes your spell slots rapidly, though. I havent looked at eratta, but it may have been fixed by now, too.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 08:08 AM
Eh, flaws and backstory, respectively. And its not like a random metamagic feat is a bad thing to pick.

Sanctum/Arcane Fusion is a fun combo...depletes your spell slots rapidly, though. I havent looked at eratta, but it may have been fixed by now, too.

Since when does it deplete spell slots? Arcane Fusion only uses its own spell slot.

However, it doesn't say that you can use metamagic on them, so it's an illegal combo.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-15, 08:13 AM
Since when does it deplete spell slots? Arcane Fusion only uses its own spell slot.

However, it doesn't say that you can use metamagic on them, so it's an illegal combo.

Here I was presuming that it fired off spells exactly as normal, the advantage was merely one of action economy. IE, the usual restrictions of spells known, slots available, etc applied.

I've always assumed that metamagic was available unless specified otherwise, too. Of course, for a sorc, this tends to require some effort to do well, but I see no difference between applying metamagic to any other spont spell and applying metamagic to arcane fusion.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 08:23 AM
Here I was presuming that it fired off spells exactly as normal, the advantage was merely one of action economy. IE, the usual restrictions of spells known, slots available, etc applied.

Oh no. Arcane Fusion only uses 1 spell slot, albeit at a higher level.


I've always assumed that metamagic was available unless specified otherwise, too. Of course, for a sorc, this tends to require some effort to do well, but I see no difference between applying metamagic to any other spont spell and applying metamagic to arcane fusion.

Oh, you can apply metamagic to Arcane Fusion. But the "trick" involves using Arcane Fusion to cast Sanctum Arcane Fusion, which you can't do, because it just casts spells of up to X level, it doesn't allow you to use metamagic on them.

taltamir
2010-03-15, 08:34 AM
arcane fusion doesn't "fire off spells" (aka, using 3 slots to cast 2 spells at once) you had prepared, but instead "transforms" into spells you could cast (using one slot to cast 2 spells at once). It Helps your action economy at an even lower cost.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-15, 09:02 AM
arcane fusion does "fire off spells" (aka, using 3 slots to cast 2 spells at once) you had prepared, but instead "transforms" into spells you could cast (using one slot to cast 2 spells at once). It Helps your action economy at an even lower cost.

And thus the key is:

Grtr Arcane Fusion targetting Grtr Arcane Fusion(Sanctum Spell) and the low level nuke of your choice. The orbs are always popular, but frankly, nearly anything works well.

The second G. Arc. Fus. has the same set of targets.

Repeat until you run out of spell slots. Since the last fusion has a free target, grab the highest nuke available instead. Cloudkill to dispose of witnesses, for example.

It'll drain your spell slots ridiculously fast, but if you absolutely have to kill everything in the area with a standard action, it's a decent option.

taltamir
2010-03-15, 09:04 AM
And thus the key is:

Grtr Arcane Fusion targetting Grtr Arcane Fusion(Sanctum Spell) and the low level nuke of your choice. The orbs are always popular, but frankly, nearly anything works well.

The second G. Arc. Fus. has the same set of targets.

Repeat until you run out of spell slots. Since the last fusion has a free target, grab the highest nuke available instead. Cloudkill to dispose of witnesses, for example.

It'll drain your spell slots ridiculously fast, but if you absolutely have to kill everything in the area with a standard action, it's a decent option.

Sorry, I made a typo and wrote "does" instead of "doesn't", please see correct version... it will NOT drain your slots, it will let you fire off an infinite amount of low level spells using one higher level slot... and actually, when you finally decide to "Stop" the loop, you get one free spell of equal level to the slot you used anyways.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 09:05 AM
And thus the key is:

Grtr Arcane Fusion targetting Grtr Arcane Fusion(Sanctum Spell) and the low level nuke of your choice. The orbs are always popular, but frankly, nearly anything works well.

The second G. Arc. Fus. has the same set of targets.

Repeat until you run out of spell slots. Since the last fusion has a free target, grab the highest nuke available instead. Cloudkill to dispose of witnesses, for example.

It'll drain your spell slots ridiculously fast, but if you absolutely have to kill everything in the area with a standard action, it's a decent option.

If it worked, it would only drain 1 spell slot. But it doesn't, because it doesn't allow you to apply metamagic to the two duplicated spells.

taltamir
2010-03-15, 09:07 AM
If it worked, it would only drain 1 spell slot. But it doesn't, because it doesn't allow you to apply metamagic to the two duplicated spells.

but you can still apply metamagic to the original one... so its "use a slot to get a low level spell and a spell of equal level to the slot expanded" two spells for the price of one and you don't have to give up anything (well, aside from being in your sanctum

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 09:10 AM
but you can still apply metamagic to the original one... so its "use a slot to get a low level spell and a spell of equal level to the slot expanded" two spells for the price of one and you don't have to give up anything (well, aside from being in your sanctum

What? No, this is wrong. Sanctum Spell doesn't help when applied to Arcane Fusion. It just makes the Arcane Fusion count as a 6th or 4th level spell instead of a 5th level one.

Tyndmyr
2010-03-15, 09:14 AM
but you can still apply metamagic to the original one... so its "use a slot to get a low level spell and a spell of equal level to the slot expanded" two spells for the price of one and you don't have to give up anything (well, aside from being in your sanctum

Applying to original doesn't work, since it doesn't matter what level the original arc. sanct. counts as, it matters what the targets are.

So...most metamagic wouldn't work well with arcane fusion. Quicken is fine, of course, but it's the same thing as contingency. You need to apply MM to the contingent spell, not to contingency itself.

magic9mushroom
2010-03-15, 09:18 AM
Applying to original doesn't work, since it doesn't matter what level the original arc. sanct. counts as, it matters what the targets are.

So...most metamagic wouldn't work well with arcane fusion. Quicken is fine, of course, but it's the same thing as contingency. You need to apply MM to the contingent spell, not to contingency itself.

Twin works, as do a couple of others. Depends on how you interpret it as to Empower, Maximise et al.

Kylarra
2010-03-15, 09:34 AM
what does it stand for and how do I implement it?
Mage of the Arcane Order. It requires Arcane Preparation, Cooperative spell and one other metamagic. You obviously need to either be human, another feat race, or have taken a flaw to get in "on time". Basically you get access to the spellpool, which allows you to spend a full round action to "call a spell" into an unused spell slot. You can call spells per day whose total levels are equal to caster level/2. So it's only moderate versatility, but it doesn't require you to know everything for that utility trick. You do need to stay in the PrC until level 7 to get access to higher level spells though. 1/4/7 are the increment points for the power of your access to the spellpool. each one increases the max level you can call by 3 (obviously starting at 0).

You do need to pay it back later, but sorcerers can easily return spells at the end of the day before resting.

Vizzerdrix
2010-03-15, 11:38 AM
.
2. Spells known - you know very few, you can only swap a few on levelup.

Please cite the source (if you can) of the solution to each of those problems.

-Mother Cyst. adds 11 spells. Libris Mortis or BoVD
-Cerebrosis. adds 11 hazardous spells. obtainable for 1400 gp and a few knowledge checks. Dragon Mag: # unknown. Yellow background with a mind flayer on it
-knowstones: shell out cash for extra spells. Dragon Mag.
-Rune Staves: GP for Spells known. MIC
-Drake Helm: add ANY (any any)4 spells you your list. Eberron Explorers book. I think.
-Sand Shaper 1: Add a bunch of spells for a single dip. Less hoops to jump through than MotAO.


Extra spells: Your high Cha makes investing in UMD a damn good option.
Comp. Dragon or Comp. Mage have a Spont. caster's pearl of power equivalent.