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ChakraChanter
2010-03-14, 06:14 PM
I personally enjoy this PrC, and recognize it has potential (though some may disagree). Because of its ability to cast abjuration spells as swift actions, what are good abjuration spells to have?

deuxhero
2010-03-14, 06:18 PM
First of all, ask the DM if you can have mage armor and it's variants as abjuration spells, as though a sane person was choosing schools.

ChakraChanter
2010-03-14, 06:19 PM
First of all, ask the DM if you can have mage armor and it's variants as abjuration spells, as though a sane person was choosing schools.

Understood, but do you know of any spells that are incredibly useful

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-14, 06:20 PM
Abjurant Champion is an epic-awesome gish PrC. Get Shield, and if you can't get Mage Armor get Luminous/Greater Luminous Armor (BoED) You have to eat 1d3 points of STR damage every night, but that can be easily solved with a wand of Lesser restoration at that level.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-14, 06:21 PM
The dispel line are pretty good options to swift cast, especially againts other caster.

EnemyWiz: (flying) "ha pathethic warrior, now try to reach me hahahaha"
AbChamp: "Quickened Dispel magic, now full attack.

Pluto
2010-03-14, 06:25 PM
Shield, Protection from Evil, Dispel, Protection from Energy are the usual suspects.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-14, 06:25 PM
Try google. Then try CO boards quicklinks. But here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870634/Treantmonks_guide_to_Abjuration:_Gods_Tools) is what you need

John Campbell
2010-03-14, 07:50 PM
Other than the ones already mentioned: anticipate teleportation. It's a ten-minute casting time, so you can't swift-cast it, but it's a 24-hour duration before the free Extending, so you only need to cast it every other day. (I've unfortunately not found another good 3rd-level abjuration with a similar duration to fill the slot with on the alternate days.) And it's hilarious, especially if you fight enemies that short-range teleport a lot. Double-especially if your DM minimizes the metagaming or, like mine, just tends to forget that you always have it up.

"So the enemy wizard abrupt jaunts out of reach and casts..."
"Not 'til next turn he doesn't. Where'd you say he'll be coming back in?"
"Aw crap."

T.G. Oskar
2010-03-14, 08:01 PM
Resist Energy. With both Swift AND Extended versions, you can prepare for any energy brunt without much trouble. Resist Energy tends to be considered better than Protection from Energy since while the latter protects you completely, the former lasts for a much longer time and the usual amount of damage rarely surpasses 30 (considering you have Reflex saves or Fortitude saves for most of those spells).

SpC-wise: Ectoplasmic Armor if you're facing incorporeal creatures, Daggerspell Stance if you do TWF and daggers, Scintillating Scales if you want your natural armor bonus to become deflection bonus. All of them decent but situational in any case.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-14, 08:38 PM
You haven't found the true power of AbChamp, my friend. Come back when you tack on Legacy Champion and can auto-quicken up to 8th level Abjuration spells...

deuxhero
2010-03-14, 08:41 PM
Sanctum Spell (or some cheese to get spells under their natural level) Maw of Chaos?

Thurbane
2010-03-14, 08:52 PM
Can a Duskblade cast metamagicked spells as a swift action if he's a spontaneous caster?

Godskook
2010-03-14, 08:56 PM
You haven't found the true power of AbChamp, my friend. Come back when you tack on Legacy Champion and can auto-quicken up to 8th level Abjuration spells...

Personally, and I suspect a lot of people are the same way, I would beat any player with a book who tried to use Legacy Champion to over-extend a 5th level prestige class. Sure, its RAW, but that doesn't mean it'll see play at the table.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-14, 09:00 PM
Personally, and I suspect a lot of people are the same way, I would beat any player with a book who tried to use Legacy Champion to over-extend a 5th level prestige class. Sure, its RAW, but that doesn't mean it'll see play at the table.

What about Uncanny Trickster and Paragon levels?

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-14, 09:07 PM
Can a Duskblade cast metamagicked spells as a swift action if he's a spontaneous caster?

Yes,

If a spellís normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a spontaneous spellcaster.

A swift action spell doesn't have a standard action casting time so its not effected by that rule.

Ernir
2010-03-14, 09:18 PM
What about Uncanny Trickster and Paragon levels?

Hmm, there's a Paragon class that advances class features instead of only spellcasting?

Godskook
2010-03-14, 09:34 PM
What about Uncanny Trickster and Paragon levels?

Same, mostly. Although, it'd probably be worded in the form of "Non-10th level PrCs have their abilities hard-capped at the end of their progression. Underpowered classes can be homebrewed into longer versions at DM's discretion only."

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-14, 09:38 PM
Same, mostly. Although, it'd probably be worded in the form of "Non-10th level PrCs have their abilities hard-capped at the end of their progression. Underpowered classes can be homebrewed into longer versions at DM's discretion only."

In the games I run, I don't mind Uncanny Trickster at all, and even will usually allow Legacy Champion. I figure there's a lot worse things you can do, after all. Incantatrix comes to mind pretty strongly. And really, it's the only way to make some builds (like Hellfire Glaivelock) viable.

Runestar
2010-03-14, 09:49 PM
Dragon abjurant champion npcs with caster lv = bab...:smallcool:

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-14, 09:57 PM
Dragon abjurant champion npcs with caster lv = bab...:smallcool:

Any DM giving a dragon a character class needs to carefully balance that fact, it actually be a cheap TPK tactic by the sounds of it. Dragons are intended to advance by HD.
If a DM decides to give a dragon class levels he should be fair about it.

deuxhero
2010-03-14, 10:22 PM
Or it's a steel dragon wyrmling JPM. But then it is more of a JPM with the steel dragon race.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-14, 10:28 PM
In the games I run, I don't mind Uncanny Trickster at all, and even will usually allow Legacy Champion. I figure there's a lot worse things you can do, after all. Incantatrix comes to mind pretty strongly. And really, it's the only way to make some builds (like Hellfire Glaivelock) viable.

Hellfire Glaivelock is hardly nonviable without legacy champion. Legacy champion just boosts it's damage to "don't bother rolling".

Godskook
2010-03-14, 10:33 PM
In the games I run, I don't mind Uncanny Trickster at all, and even will usually allow Legacy Champion. I figure there's a lot worse things you can do, after all. Incantatrix comes to mind pretty strongly. And really, it's the only way to make some builds (like Hellfire Glaivelock) viable.

Now, you see, instead of allowing Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion to break an other-wise hard-capped class feature, I'd simply extend the class by a level or 3 if the player convinced me that viability was an issue. It allows for a viable build using the class, but doesn't set an ugly precedent or double-standard(He can use legacy champion but I can't!).

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-14, 10:41 PM
Yes,


A swift action spell doesn't have a standard action casting time so its not effected by that rule.

Arcane Spellsurge shows that swift action spells become standard actions, so no to this.

In addition, if a class feature shortens the casting time, that's not the "normal casting time". The normal casting time is the time listed in the spell's entry. If that's a standard action, then even if it were otherwise shortened to a swift action, by RAW, it'd take a full round action to apply metamagic to.

That said, casting time increases are generally viewed as:

Swift becomes standard, standard becomes full.

JaronK
2010-03-14, 10:49 PM
I really don't mind the Legacy Champion/Bloodline type abuse of shorter classes. After all, they lose caster levels and don't gain anything else in those levels. Sure, swift abjurations are nasty, but it means they're not taking levels in something else, like Shadowcraft Mage. I'm far more likely to ban full casters than something like that.

Though a War Weaver/Abjurant Champion with a Major Bloodline could be interesting...

JaronK

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-14, 11:02 PM
Arcane Spellsurge shows that swift action spells become standard actions, so no to this.
That said, casting time increases are generally viewed as:

Swift becomes standard, standard becomes full.

That restriction only applies to Arcane Spellsurge spells, it is not a rule that applies to all spells.

According to the actual rules of the game increases casting time only comes into play if the spells casting time is 1-standard action or longer. I quoted the rules compendium that clarifies in the PHB when they say 1 action spell they mean one standard action.

And I'd say its splitting hairs that an the swift abjuration ability doesn't count as normal because its not a limited use ability.

Akal Saris
2010-03-15, 03:47 AM
Hmm... a Wiz 5/War Weaver 5/Bloodline 3/Abj. Champ 5/Incantatrix 2 would be interesting I guess, but really there aren't THAT many high level buff spells or abjurations that would make the lost CLs worthwhile. But in 1 round with timestop you could probably lay out 15 spells or so.

Here's my short list for abjurant champs:

1st:
Shield, Protection from Evil, Ectoplasmic Armor

2nd:
Luminous Armor, Resist Energy, Daggerspell Stance

3rd:
Dispel magic, magic circle, anticipate teleportation (every other day)

4th (not quickened but extended):
Greater Luminous Armor, Dimensional anchor, mass resist energy, greater resistance (every other day)

Yep...looking it over, I remember that I really don't like abjuration very much.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-15, 03:58 AM
Hmm... a Wiz 5/War Weaver 5/Bloodline 3/Abj. Champ 5/Incantatrix 2 would be interesting I guess, but really there aren't THAT many high level buff spells or abjurations that would make the lost CLs worthwhile. But in 1 round with timestop you could probably lay out 15 spells or so.


What lost CL's do you mean from War Weaver or Bloodline? as that doesn't really relate to the Abjurant champion or abjuration spells. Abjurant Champion's have full casting progression.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-15, 01:41 PM
Arcane Spellsurge shows that swift action spells become standard actions, so no to this.

Actually, that's not what Arcane Spellsurge says. It states "However, a sorcerer or other spontaneous arcane caster could cast a metamagic spell (as a standard action) and a normal spell (as a swift action) in the same round." It's not saying a swift action spell metamagic's to a standard action, it's saying that you could add metamagic to a standard-action spell so arcane spellsurge reduces it from a full-round to a standard action, instead of a standard to a swift, in order to cast multiple spells in the same round.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-15, 01:43 PM
EnemyWiz: (flying) "ha pathethic warrior, now try to reach me hahahaha"
AbChamp: "Quickened Dispel magic, now full attack.

That is probably the funniest thing i've yet to see on this forum since the Polar Bear Facepalm

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-15, 02:04 PM
Actually, that's not what Arcane Spellsurge says. It states "However, a sorcerer or other spontaneous arcane caster could cast a metamagic spell (as a standard action) and a normal spell (as a swift action) in the same round." It's not saying a swift action spell metamagic's to a standard action, it's saying that you could add metamagic to a standard-action spell so arcane spellsurge reduces it from a full-round to a standard action, instead of a standard to a swift, in order to cast multiple spells in the same round.

This shows that metamagic is applied before other effects, such as spells. It's a solid argument for the "normal casting time for a spell" being the listed cast time entry for the spell, which is then modified.

In that case you start with an Abjuration.

Shield (Standard action).
You metamagic it (Full round action).

Trying to argue that a spell time that has been modified by a class feature is the normal time is silliness.

It doesn't matter if the guy can cast every spell he has like that. If it's modified, it's not standard.

Petrocorus
2010-03-15, 02:15 PM
Hellfire Glaivelock is hardly nonviable without legacy champion. Legacy champion just boosts it's damage to "don't bother rolling".

What is the Hellfire Glaivelock??

kladams707
2010-03-15, 02:20 PM
What is the Hellfire Glaivelock??

It's a warlock that uses the hellfire and eldritch glaive invocations (don't know the source of the latter)

[edit]Oops. Confused hellfire and hellrime

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-15, 02:21 PM
What is the Hellfire Glaivelock??

A melee warlock build which uses the Eldritch Glaive invocation to gain multiple eldritch blast touch attacks per round.

hamishspence
2010-03-15, 02:23 PM
I think Eldritch glaive is in Complete Mage.

EDIT: Apparently not.

also- the Hellfire Warlock PRC is in Fiendish Codex 2- I think that might be what's usually being referred to in this context.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-03-15, 02:25 PM
eldritch glaive is an invocation from dragon magic that lets you make your EB with itteratives as a full round action at 10 ft range and letsyou get a AoO

Heliomance
2010-03-15, 03:30 PM
Hellfire Warlock is the relevant part, though - it's a three level PrC which significantly boosts your eldritch blast damage, at the cost of taking con damage. Legacy champion et al can boost the damage further, past the normal 3 levels worth.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-15, 04:12 PM
What is the Hellfire Glaivelock??

In slightly more detail, this uses two features:

1) The Eldritch Glaive Invocation, which lets you, as a full round action, manifest your Eldritch Blast as a Glaive, when you can then full attack with as a part of the invocation.

2) Hellfire Warlock. This PrC is 3 levels long. If you blow a point of Con, it gives you +2d6/class level extra damage. Normally, this caps to +6d6 damage. However, with the Legacy Champion PrC, which advances class features 8/10, you end up with something like +22d6 damage. Fun times :smallcool:

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-15, 04:12 PM
Arcane spellsurge is a spell, its rules can not be taken to be the rules of the normal game. It is the rules to how the spell works

But lets assume for the sake of argument your correct in this statement

This shows that metamagic is applied before other effects, such as spells.

The sample Abjurant Champion in the book is actually a sorcerer
He casts a metamagiced abjuration spell The metamagic feat is applied first extending the casting time to one full round action. Then swift Abjuration is applied, which lets you cast abjuration spells as a swift action, as if the spell had been quickened for free.

Petrocorus
2010-03-15, 04:25 PM
In slightly more detail, this uses two features:

1) The Eldritch Glaive Invocation, which lets you, as a full round action, manifest your Eldritch Blast as a Glaive, when you can then full attack with as a part of the invocation.

2) Hellfire Warlock. This PrC is 3 levels long. If you blow a point of Con, it gives you +2d6/class level extra damage. Normally, this caps to +6d6 damage. However, with the Legacy Champion PrC, which advances class features 8/10, you end up with something like +22d6 damage. Fun times :smallcool:
Where can i find the Legacy Champion BTW?

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-15, 04:28 PM
Arcane spellsurge is a spell, its rules can not be taken to be the rules of the normal game. It is the rules to how the spell works

But lets assume for the sake of argument your correct in this statement


The sample Abjurant Champion in the book is actually a sorcerer
He casts a metamagiced abjuration spell The metamagic feat is applied first extending the casting time to one full round action. Then swift Abjuration is applied, which lets you cast abjuration spells as a swift action, as if the spell had been quickened for free.

Yes, but it also says Mage armor as an abjuration spell, so I don't know how much we can trust it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-15, 04:33 PM
Where can i find the Legacy Champion BTW?

In the book Weapons of Legacy

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-15, 04:41 PM
Yes, but it also says Mage armor as an abjuration spell, so I don't know how much we can trust it.

Oh big whoop one minor mistake in what school a spell is and suddenly the rules for how the quicken spell feat work can no longer be trusted nor can any abilities that build off it.

Orran
2010-03-15, 04:56 PM
If only there was a way to give dispel magic the fire descriptor, then you could take the feat that removes level based caps, and auto quicken dispels with no CL caps.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-15, 05:02 PM
This shows that metamagic is applied before other effects, such as spells. It's a solid argument for the "normal casting time for a spell" being the listed cast time entry for the spell, which is then modified.

I have no objection to that line of reasoning; I meant only to point out that arcane spellsurge isn't claiming that metamagic + swift = standard, not make a statement on what "normal casting time" is.