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Choco
2010-03-14, 06:18 PM
Say I have a trait that makes me take extra damage from fire (like the Cold subtype), but am wearing a ring that gives me energy resistance 30 to fire. Would the damage be multiplied by 1.5 and then have the 30 from the resistance subtracted, or would the resistance be subtracted first and then what is left over multiplied by 1.5?

I personally think that the resistance would stop the damage from even hitting you so it would be applied first, but is there something in the rules to confirm this?

Ranos
2010-03-14, 06:39 PM
Yeah, you apply your effects in the order you prefer.

Choco
2010-03-14, 06:44 PM
Yeah, you apply your effects in the order you prefer.

Sweet, that is good to hear! So I can basically apply my effects in whichever order would be most beneficial, that's good to know.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-14, 06:45 PM
Yeah, you apply your effects in the order you prefer.

Is this actually a rule? I'd like to use this for reference next time I try to pull of a combo.

Myou
2010-03-14, 06:46 PM
Is this actually a rule? I'd like to use this for reference next time I try to pull of a combo.

Same here.

tyckspoon
2010-03-14, 06:54 PM
Officially speaking, no, it's not- it's a principle that was put forth in one of the Sage Advice/Rules of the Game columns (IIRC it was actually about the Energy Resistance vs. Vulnerability question, in fact.) In the actual RAW I don't believe there is any rule about the order effects should be applied. In the absence of such "Do it whichever way turns out best for you" is the simplest guide to use.

Saph
2010-03-14, 07:00 PM
The way I see it, energy resistance functions like a shield - it takes away damage up to a certain limit, then lets the rest through. Energy vulnerability means that you get hurt worse by any damage that does go through.

Therefore, you apply energy resistance first, and energy vulnerability second. That's only my reading of it, though.

d13
2010-03-14, 07:17 PM
The way I see it, energy resistance functions like a shield - it takes away damage up to a certain limit, then lets the rest through. Energy vulnerability means that you get hurt worse by any damage that does go through.

Therefore, you apply energy resistance first, and energy vulnerability second. That's only my reading of it, though.

Actually, I think exactly the opposite xD.

Energy Resistance is a magic effect that alters your body to be more resistant to some kind of damage. The thing is, your body is already weak to that kind of damage, and therefore, you take extra damage when you're hit by it.

In that sense, you apply Energy Vulnerability first, because it's the way your natural metabolism is, and then you apply the Resistance, which is a magical alteration to your body, to react to the damage you're taking.

At least, that's the way I think it'd make sense...

At any rate, the spell Resist Energy says that:

The subject gains energy resistance 10 against the energy type chosen, meaning that each time the creature is subjected to such damage (whether from a natural or magical source), that damage is reduced by 10 points before being applied to the creature’s hit points

So the order of the effect would be:
1. Attack is made.
2. Damage is multiplied.
3. Damage is resisted.
4. Damage is applied.

2 cents sent... Maybe they'll arrive in time.

Saph
2010-03-14, 07:23 PM
Actually, I think exactly the opposite xD.

Energy Resistance is a magic effect that alters your body to be more resistant to some kind of damage. The thing is, your body is already weak to that kind of damage, and therefore, you take extra damage when you're hit by it.


To put it in sci-fi terms, I think of energy resistance as your shields, and vulnerability/HP/whatever as your hull. So having Fire Resist 30 and Fire Vulnerability means you have amazing shields, but anything that goes through will make a real mess of the ship.

But yeah, I don't thing there's any correct answer to this one.

Devils_Advocate
2010-03-15, 02:13 PM
But d13, energy resistance, like Damage Reduction, doesn't reverse damage taken, it prevents you from taking it in the first place. This is significant, because e.g. it's less likely to disrupt a spell being cast this way. Basically, what you said would seem to make more sense with one part put the other way around. Try this instead:

"Energy Resistance is a magic effect that alters your body to be more resistant to some kind of damage. The thing is, your body is also weak to that kind of damage, and therefore, you take extra damage when you're affected by it.

So first you apply the Resistance, to react to the damage before you take it, and then you apply Energy Vulnerability, because it's the way your natural metabolism is.

So the order of the effects would be:
1. Attack is made.
2. Damage is resisted.
3. Damage is multiplied.
4. Damage is applied."

However! If you want an answer with an actual basis in the rules (in contrast to the Sage ruling)... separate effects are normally applied separately to the original value. Two doublings equates to a tripling, because when the rules tell you to double something, that's just shorthand for telling you to add 100% to the normal value. A Maximized, Empowered spell has the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result, not one-and-a-half times the maximum result, because maximizing the normal result and adding one half of the normal result are separately applied effects.

So, if you want to be consistent with how multiple effects are normally combined, a creature with Vulnerability to Energy and Resistance to Energy would take 50% more than the base damage done by an attack and also however many points less; in other words, multiply first (what with the order of operations and all). For that matter, a successful saving throw for half damage would only reduce it from 150% to 100%, rather than from 150% to 75%.

And from a balance perspective, not being able to negate a vulnerability seems like a good thing. And since this is far from an issue of realism, game balance seems like the appropriate angle from which to address it.

And if you really want your white dragon to avoid taking fire damage, have him paint himself red. :smallamused: Of course, at that point you're being really unfair, but you're doing it in-character. :smalltongue:

arguskos
2010-03-15, 02:36 PM
And if you really want your white dragon to avoid taking fire damage, have him paint himself red. :smallamused: Of course, at that point you're being really unfair, but you're doing it in-character. :smalltongue:
Dude... blood is red. He's a dragon. This doesn't require a lot of thought. :smallwink:

Lysander
2010-03-15, 02:43 PM
I think it makes sense for energy resistance to kick in first. If it only applied after you figure in each creature's strength's and weaknesses then the same resist energy spell applied to different creatures would stop different amounts of energy even if it stops the same amount of energy damage.

AslanCross
2010-03-15, 05:05 PM
The way I see it, energy resistance functions like a shield - it takes away damage up to a certain limit, then lets the rest through. Energy vulnerability means that you get hurt worse by any damage that does go through.

Therefore, you apply energy resistance first, and energy vulnerability second. That's only my reading of it, though.

I go with this. Outermost effect first, innermost effect last.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-15, 06:09 PM
A Maximized, Empowered spell has the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result, not one-and-a-half times the maximum result, because maximizing the normal result and adding one half of the normal result are separately applied effects.

Nitpick: Maximize and Empower are the only metamagic feats that interact in this way because there is a special clause to that effect in their descriptions. Other metamagic feats stack normally, so I wouldn't use metamagic feats as an example of general rules for this case.

Keld Denar
2010-03-15, 07:44 PM
Its in the FAQ, page 113, lower left hand side:



If a monster has resistance and vulnerability to the
same kind of damage (such as fire), which effect is applied
first? And when does the saving throw come in?
Always roll a saving throw before applying any effects that
would increase or reduce the damage dealt. For example, if a
frost giant is struck by a fireball that would deal 35 points of
damage, it would roll its Reflex save, then apply its
vulnerability to fire after determining how much damage the
fireball would normally deal. If the save failed, the frost giant
would take 52 points of damage: 35 + one-half of 35 (17.5,
rounded down to 17). A successful save would mean the frost
giant suffered only 25 points of damage: one-half of 35
rounded down (17), plus one-half of 17 rounded down (8).
If the creature has both resistance and vulnerability to the
same kind of damage, apply the resistance (which reduces the
damage dealt by the effect) before applying the vulnerability
(which increases the damage taken by the creature). For
example, imagine our frost giant wore a ring of minor fire
resistance (granting resistance to fire 10). If the save failed, the
frost giant would take 37 points of fire damage: 35 (fireball) Ė
10 (resistance to fire 10) = 25, plus one-half of 25 (12.5,
rounded down to 12). If the save succeeded, the frost giant
would take only 10 points of damage: 17 (half damage from the
fireball, rounded down) Ė 10 (resistance to fire 10) = 7, plus
one-half of 7 (3.5, rounded down to 3).
As a general guideline, whenever the rules donít stipulate
an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or
special abilities), you should apply them in the order thatís
most beneficial to the creature. In the case of damage, this
typically means applying any damage-reducing effects first,
before applying any effects that would increase damage.

Devils_Advocate
2010-03-15, 08:11 PM
Maximize and Empower are the only metamagic feats that interact in this way because there is a special clause to that effect in their descriptions. Other metamagic feats stack normally, so I wouldn't use metamagic feats as an example of general rules for this case.
Hmm, true. There's no such clause for, say, the Repeat Spell feat. And I'm not sure that Maximize and Empower shouldn't stack completely, since the increases to the level of spell slot required sure do, and a +5 adjustment is pretty darned big.

Vulnerabilities, though, seem like they should require more to mitigate the bigger they are. And defenses seem like they should require more to overcome the stronger they are. This is one of the problems with absolute effects (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/variantfewerabsolutes1.html).

Fiery Diamond
2010-03-15, 08:44 PM
Hmm, true. There's no such clause for, say, the Repeat Spell feat. And I'm not sure that Maximize and Empower shouldn't stack completely, since the increases to the level of spell slot required sure do, and a +5 adjustment is pretty darned big.

Yeah, I know. Whenever I DM, I ignore that clause. Whenever I play, I ask my DM if we can ignore that clause. The DM usually says yes.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-15, 09:01 PM
Without the special clause for empower and maximization, you couldn't do both on a single spell. A Maximized fireball has no variable numeric effects it say is not subject to dampen power because of this, but the special rule stats how empower and maximize would stack.

Anyway in this case I would apply the energy resistance first because its from a piece of an equipment and not a part of his being. The ring shields him from fire and whatever gets past it must contend with his bodies own resistances.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-15, 10:54 PM
I'm not sure that Maximize and Empower shouldn't stack completely, since the increases to the level of spell slot required sure do, and a +5 adjustment is pretty darned big.

The designers vastly overestimated the value of the combination in core, as they vastly overestimated the power of many things, so they put that clause in to mitigate it. I ignore it whenever I DM.


Without the special clause for empower and maximization, you couldn't do both on a single spell. A Maximized fireball has no variable numeric effects it say is not subject to dampen power because of this, but the special rule stats how empower and maximize would stack.

Not necessarily; keeping in mind that the rule of thumb is to apply effects in the most beneficial manner, you'd simply apply Empower first and then apply Maximize to (XdY)*1.5, which is still a variable numeric effect.

faceroll
2010-03-16, 03:41 AM
The way I see it, energy resistance functions like a shield - it takes away damage up to a certain limit, then lets the rest through. Energy vulnerability means that you get hurt worse by any damage that does go through.

Therefore, you apply energy resistance first, and energy vulnerability second. That's only my reading of it, though.

I think this is the case because it is an abjuration effect. Were it a transmutation effect, I would say multiply first.