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Talbot
2010-03-15, 01:37 PM
Could have sworn I read something about this at some point, but I can't seem to find it in the DMG or MiC. Help?

Mando Knight
2010-03-15, 01:55 PM
Regular clothing is +0. Armor bonuses are given with basic clothing as the baseline +0 modifier.

Riffington
2010-03-15, 02:03 PM
You should be able to get Padded armor tailored to look like regular clothing. You may be able to get masterwork leather or a mithril chain shirt for this purpose, if you have a spectacular tailor.

unre9istered
2010-03-15, 02:05 PM
Does this mean you can enchant regular clothing?

Riffington
2010-03-15, 02:05 PM
Does this mean you can enchant regular clothing?

No. Only masterwork clothing.

hamishspence
2010-03-15, 02:09 PM
Don't some robes or vests grant hefty boosts to AC? One of those, tailored to look a bit more "normal" might do the trick.

the vest of the archmagi, in Magic Item Compendium, which is described as "such an item couldn't exist, but if it did, it would have these abilities" - looks like a pretty ordinary-shaped, if ornate, waistcoat.

Last Laugh
2010-03-15, 02:10 PM
I love masterwork items. masterwork soap (yes!, you too can smell like an elf!!!), masterwork fork (never breaks on a fumble, +1 on attacks against food)
It improves the quality of everything.

Godskook
2010-03-15, 02:30 PM
I can't seem to find the rules regarding it, but pick up a masterwork scholar's outfit, and enchant the robe that comes with it with +8 AC, as per the MiC rules in the back for enchanting common effects. Then, remember its a valid target for magic vestment, so now you have +12 AC from it, without it 'counting' as armor, in terms of class features that care if you're wearing armor. Iirc, Curmudgeon is the one that normally posts this, but curses upon curses, he posts too much for my search-fu.

Cieyrin
2010-03-15, 02:53 PM
I can't seem to find the rules regarding it, but pick up a masterwork scholar's outfit, and enchant the robe that comes with it with +8 AC, as per the MiC rules in the back for enchanting common effects. Then, remember its a valid target for magic vestment, so now you have +12 AC from it, without it 'counting' as armor, in terms of class features that care if you're wearing armor. Iirc, Curmudgeon is the one that normally posts this, but curses upon curses, he posts too much for my search-fu.

The Armor bonus of normal clothing is mentioned under Magic Vestment.

Quoted for Truth:
An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.

Also, if we're that worried about looking ordinary,you can just get ordinary armor and add Glamered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#glamered) to it to make it look like whatever you feel like wearing. Glamered Mountain Plate may be the heaviest monkey suit that you ever did wear. :smalltongue:

Volkov
2010-03-15, 02:56 PM
I love masterwork items. masterwork soap (yes!, you too can smell like an elf!!!), masterwork fork (never breaks on a fumble, +1 on attacks against food)
It improves the quality of everything.

The masterworl beaker, offering a +2 bonus on science SCIENCE! Checks since 2003.

Johel
2010-03-15, 03:08 PM
The masterworl beaker, offering a +2 bonus on science SCIENCE! Checks since 2003.

Masterwork silk rope. To add an extra +2 to kinky parties... :smallamused:

Also, since the thread is answered but seems to go another way, how would one determine the price of an at-will, command word, magic item that would cast Mage's Armor ?

We are not talking of a continuous item, here, but of a rod that cast Mage's Armor on a touched target, with a duration of at least 4 hours per use. The kind of item that transforms your whole army of naked peasants into force-armored militia for the length of a battle.

Koury
2010-03-15, 03:18 PM
Masterwork silk rope. To add an extra +2 to kinky parties... :smallamused:

Also, since the thread is answered but seems to go another way, how would one determine the price of an at-will, command word, magic item that would cast Mage's Armor ?

We are not talking of a continuous item, here, but of a rod that cast Mage's Armor on a touched target, with a duration of at least 4 hours per use. The kind of item that transforms your whole army of naked peasants into force-armored militia for the length of a battle.

I would just make a mage armor trap.

Talbot
2010-03-15, 03:31 PM
I can't seem to find the rules regarding it, but pick up a masterwork scholar's outfit, and enchant the robe that comes with it with +8 AC, as per the MiC rules in the back for enchanting common effects. Then, remember its a valid target for magic vestment, so now you have +12 AC from it, without it 'counting' as armor, in terms of class features that care if you're wearing armor. Iirc, Curmudgeon is the one that normally posts this, but curses upon curses, he posts too much for my search-fu.

What would be the final pricetag on something like that?

Kylarra
2010-03-15, 03:32 PM
What would be the final pricetag on something like that?Same as +8 bracers of armor+MW clothing I guess.

Johel
2010-03-15, 03:34 PM
I would just make a mage armor trap.

...And that's a win.
If we can carry it around, that's it. But even a cart or something bigger would be worth the pain.

If we can't, what would be the price ?

Swordgleam
2010-03-15, 03:35 PM
I love masterwork items. masterwork soap (yes!, you too can smell like an elf!!!), masterwork fork (never breaks on a fumble, +1 on attacks against food)
It improves the quality of everything.

As someone who just had what I thought was a fairly good knife break in a block of cheese yesterday, where can I get this masterwork silverware of which you speak?

I think memory foam is masterwork pillows.

JeenLeen
2010-03-15, 03:39 PM
I can't seem to find the rules regarding it, but pick up a masterwork scholar's outfit, and enchant the robe that comes with it with +8 AC, as per the MiC rules in the back for enchanting common effects. Then, remember its a valid target for magic vestment, so now you have +12 AC from it, without it 'counting' as armor, in terms of class features that care if you're wearing armor. Iirc, Curmudgeon is the one that normally posts this, but curses upon curses, he posts too much for my search-fu.

This can give the AC without you officially wearing any sort of armor (presumably because of class features that prohibit armor), but is there any way to enchant clothes with armor enchantments besides +1, 2, 3, etc.?

Also, would the enchanting of normal clothes be as enchanting armor (as in a +3 mithral shirt) or as in enchanting things like gloves or shoes (which I imagine is pricer, such as the bracers that give AC are)?

Note: I see someone above me already asked the second question.

Kylarra
2010-03-15, 03:47 PM
Also, since the thread is answered but seems to go another way, how would one determine the price of an at-will, command word, magic item that would cast Mage's Armor ?By RAW? It's pretty simple

1*4*1800 = 7200 gp:smalltongue: Increment the second number as needed for number of hours you want.

Command word: Spell level caster level 1,800 gp

Nidogg
2010-03-15, 03:50 PM
You may be thinking of 4e where there are some special material that gives AC bonuses to cloth armour (i.e regular clothing).

AslanCross
2010-03-15, 04:13 PM
You may be thinking of 4e where there are some special material that gives AC bonuses to cloth armour (i.e regular clothing).

By raw it still works in 3.5, but you really have to get it enchanted somehow.

Mark Hall
2010-03-15, 04:19 PM
The masterworl beaker, offering a +2 bonus on science SCIENCE! Checks since 2003.

Since 1977 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_(Muppet)), you mean.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-15, 04:26 PM
By RAW? It's pretty simple

1*4*1800 = 7200 gp:smalltongue: Increment the second number as needed for number of hours you want.

Command word: Spell level caster level 1,800 gp

Subject to DM's approval as those rules are simply rough guidelines.

If you really want enchanted clothing, and avoid any question of can I have a MW tunic.

Mithral Chain Shirt+1 of Twilight
Armor Bonus+5(including the +1 enchantment)
Maximum Dexterity Bonus+6
Arcane Spell Failure 0%
Armor Check Penalty: None
Cost 5,100gp.
A much better choice for your wizard then getting a +2 enchantment bonus on his robes.
Before any one screams lack of proficiency. The penalties for wearing armor your not proficient in are based on the check penalty

Kylarra
2010-03-15, 04:28 PM
Subject to DM's approval as those rules are simply rough guidelines.Well yes, thus the :smalltongue: and the emphasis that this was only "by RAW".

Johel
2010-03-15, 04:38 PM
By RAW? It's pretty simple

1*4*1800 = 7200 gp:smalltongue: Increment the second number as needed for number of hours you want.

Command word: Spell level caster level 1,800 gp

By RAW :w ell, that's the problem...

First, it looks cheap. And I mean cheap.
In an hour or so, I can cast something like 600 spells. Let's make it 500 for ease of future calculations. It also help to factor the fact that the process would be far from the perfect "1 casting every 6 seconds" scenario, as the wizard holding the rod would probably cast as the army is marching to war...

That's still 500 mail shirts a warlord doesn't have to buy for his dirty peasants of an army. This represents about 50.000 gold pieces and so an economy of 42.800 gp for our warlord, with the added benefits that :

the Mage Armor is weightless and means no encumbrance.
the spell will wear off : the enemy cannot loot the bodies.
it is an armor bonus : it stacks with shield bonus.

I guess that fighters and blacksmiths are now definitely useless if it costs so little to craft such a rod. Your average peasant isn't a more competent soldier but he's as armored as an elite soldier and can therefor survive longer than most 1st level warrior while still scoring critical hits from time to time (thanks light crossbows...).

Second, by RAW, there's the other rule (bonus to AC squared x 1.000), which is more "fair" price-wise but only works for continuous item that have to be weared, not at-will item that target other creatures than the wearer.

I'm not saying "You wrong !!", just pointing that I'm asking for a "what would be a fair price for you ?" rather than a "what is, by RAW, the price ?"

AslanCross
2010-03-15, 04:41 PM
Mithral Chain Shirt+1 of Twilight
Armor Bonus+5(including the +1 enchantment)
Maximum Dexterity Bonus+6
Arcane Spell Failure 0%
Armor Check Penalty: None
Cost 5,100gp.
A much better choice for your wizard then getting a +2 enchantment bonus on his robes.
Before any one screams lack of proficiency. The penalties for wearing armor your not proficient in are based on the check penalty

Thank you for this. I shall keep this in mind for any future wizard builds I make.

Kylarra
2010-03-15, 04:55 PM
just pointing that I'm asking for a "what would be a fair price for you ?" rather than a "what is, by RAW, the price ?"

Be more specific then.

how would one determine the price of an at-will, command word, magic item that would cast Mage's Armor ?

is pretty clear cut considering we have "guidelines" for such things. If you're asking for opinions after being aware of those guidelines, then you need to say as much.

As a GM, I wouldn't allow anything like that because it would be too easy to abuse along the lines of the tippyverse and automatically resetting traps of mage armor.

Petrocorus
2010-03-15, 05:03 PM
By RAW :w ell, that's the problem...

First, it looks cheap. And I mean cheap.
In an hour or so, I can cast something like 600 spells. Let's make it 500 for ease of future calculations. It also help to factor the fact that the process would be far from the perfect "1 casting every 6 seconds" scenario, as the wizard holding the rod would probably cast as the army is marching to war...

That's still 500 mail shirts a warlord doesn't have to buy for his dirty peasants of an army. This represents about 50.000 gold pieces and so an economy of 42.800 gp for our warlord, with the added benefits that :

the Mage Armor is weightless and means no encumbrance.
the spell will wear off : the enemy cannot loot the bodies.
it is an armor bonus : it stacks with shield bonus.

I guess that fighters and blacksmiths are now definitely useless if it costs so little to craft such a rod. Your average peasant isn't a more competent soldier but he's as armored as an elite soldier and can therefor survive longer than most 1st level warrior while still scoring critical hits from time to time (thanks light crossbows...).

Second, by RAW, there's the other rule (bonus to AC squared x 1.000), which is more "fair" price-wise but only works for continuous item that have to be weared, not at-will item that target other creatures than the wearer.

I'm not saying "You wrong !!", just pointing that I'm asking for a "what would be a fair price for you ?" rather than a "what is, by RAW, the price ?"

Except that this mage armor last for 4 hours. For 50 000 you can have 7 x this 500 mage armor that last for 4 hour or 500 actual chain shirt that last for years possibly.
So, on the long run, that will still be far more expensive.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-15, 05:03 PM
If the mention of masterwork clothing is all in jest, as with the masterwork beaker, then that's good. If anyone's confused about this, note that only weapons and nonmagical armor/shields need to be masterwork before you can add magical enhancements. Arm and body slot items can have a magical armor bonus added without any such "masterwork" cost using the Magic Item Compendium table on page 234. There's no "masterwork" price included in Bracers of Armor or robes with an armor bonus added (nor do the rules include any mention of what that cost might be).

MW armor/shield: +150 gp
MW weapon: +300 gp
MW tool: +50 gp
MW clothing: priceless

Petrocorus
2010-03-15, 05:06 PM
I love masterwork items. masterwork soap (yes!, you too can smell like an elf!!!), masterwork fork (never breaks on a fumble, +1 on attacks against food)
It improves the quality of everything.

I wonder, what would be the price of this. I mean, for example, that a character decide to make a masterwork lantern, or a masterwork club, what would be the price by RAW?

Johel
2010-03-15, 05:24 PM
Except that this mage armor last for 4 hours. For 50 000 you can have 7 x this 500 mage armor that last for 4 hour or 500 actual chain shirt that last for years possibly.
So, on the long run, that will still be far more expensive.

Since the Mage Armor spell can be cast at will from the rod (it's not a wand), the duration is only a problem if it ends in the middle of a battle.

Let's examine two scenarios :

A troop of 500 peasants with chain shirts is ambushed on its way to battle. They fight well but, having been ambushed, they are at a disadvantage. However, those are brave peasants and they fight to the end for 5 hours. Their chain shirts deflect blows during the whole length of the battle but most of them eventually die, with a handful successfully running away. The enemy's victory has been costly but he got hundreds of free armors which can easily fit any soldiers. He also get weapons.
Meanwhile, the warlord who just lost 500 peasants also lost close to 50.000 gp of investment and will have to sink another 50.000 gp to reequip a similar troop. This is why you only give quality gears to quality troops...

A troop of 500 peasants with dirty outfits, led by a wizard with a rod of Mage Armor, is ambushed on its way to battle. They fight well but, having been ambushed, they are at a disadvantage. However, those are brave peasants and they fight to the end for 5 hours. The Mage Armor was cast a few hours before and so, it lasts only for the first hour. The peasants are slaughtered, with a handful successfully running away. The enemy's victory has been easy but he got...500 dirty outfits and maybe some meat if he isn't too picky. Also, weapons.
Meanwhile, the warlord who just lost 500 peasants gives audience to the cowardly wizard that, at the first sign of trouble, did his best to run away with the rod, casting on himself and an handful of "meatshields" to increase his chances of survival.

The duration of the spell has a meaning only if your troops are in a situation where they cannot fall back before the duration ends...which doesn't make sense, as either the peasants will break ranks in panic far before the spell wear off or their captain will retreat for his men to rest while the wizard cast again and another, freshly enchanted company goes to the slaughter.

Chrono22
2010-03-15, 05:37 PM
*area dispel*

Petrocorus
2010-03-15, 05:37 PM
Since the Mage Armor spell can be cast at will from the rod (it's not a wand), the duration is only a problem if it ends in the middle of a battle.

Oops, my bad, i was considering a wand with a limited number of charge.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-15, 05:40 PM
I wonder, what would be the price of this. I mean, for example, that a character decide to make a masterwork lantern, or a masterwork club, what would be the price by RAW?
The MW club would be 300 gp: 0 gp base cost + 300 MW cost. There's nothing in the rules to set a price for a better-made lantern, though.

Johel
2010-03-15, 05:54 PM
*area dispel*
...is either limited in availability (spell slots, wands) or very expansive to field (a rod of Dispel Magic would cost around 27.000 gp at CL5).

But your point is valid.

Kelb_Panthera
2010-03-15, 06:06 PM
...is either limited in availability (spell slots, wands) or very expansive to field (a rod of Dispel Magic would cost around 27.000 gp at CL5).

But your point is valid.

It gets worse, Widened area dispel. One casting of such could dispel more than 1/3 of your army, assuming that a formed unit is 25ft on a side.That's a rather bold assumption really, as a unit of troops should be packed much tighter than 25 characters on a battle grid.

Runestar
2010-03-15, 06:19 PM
Chainshirt does seem too expensive to equip a full army. They will probably have to make do with either leather armour or hide.

BTW, is there some sort of mass mage armour spell?

Koury
2010-03-15, 06:22 PM
Like Mage Armor, Mass? :smallbiggrin: In SpC pg 136. Level 3 spell.

Runestar
2010-03-15, 06:40 PM
Like Mage Armor, Mass? :smallbiggrin: In SpC pg 136. Level 3 spell.

Yeah, exactly like that. :smallbiggrin:

So you can buff around 37-38 soldiers with 1 casting? Beats expending that many castings of mage armour...

Next, zap them with a casting of chained greater magic weapon...

deuxhero
2010-03-15, 06:46 PM
Then I could hire a wizard to cast could kill and kill your entire army with no save.

Koury
2010-03-15, 06:46 PM
Its 1 target/lvl, actually.

Riffington
2010-03-15, 07:53 PM
If the mention of masterwork clothing is all in jest, as with the masterwork beaker, then that's good. If anyone's confused about this, note that only weapons and nonmagical armor/shields need to be masterwork before you can add magical enhancements. Arm and body slot items can have a magical armor bonus added without any such "masterwork" cost using the Magic Item Compendium table on page 234. There's no "masterwork" price included in Bracers of Armor or robes with an armor bonus added (nor do the rules include any mention of what that cost might be).

MW armor/shield: +150 gp
MW weapon: +300 gp
MW tool: +50 gp
MW clothing: priceless

If you're putting armor enhancements on clothing then it's armor with base AC+0 and costs the +150.

Curmudgeon
2010-03-15, 08:09 PM
If you're putting armor enhancements on clothing then it's armor with base AC+0 and costs the +150.
That's not what Magic Item Compendium says; there's a fixed 1,000 gp price for the first +1 enhancement, and there's no extra 150 gp included. The rules are identical for arm (Bracers of Armor) and body (robes) slot items.

Remember, they explicitly changed the magic item pricing rules in MIC.