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Infernum
2010-03-15, 08:56 PM
I was curious how useful the blind fighting feat is supposed to be. My DM says its ok but that it sucks in a large scale way and there are many better feats to take.

I want a second(and as many as i can get) opinion(s) on this.

What do you all think, is it a useful feat or not.

Gametime
2010-03-15, 08:59 PM
As far as PHB feats go, it's not terrible. It's a little narrow in focus, but it's decent at what it does.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-15, 09:01 PM
Not really, it should let you attack invisible enemies like scent does, but all it does is let you re-roll the miss chance. Because when you have wizards turning invisible, fighters still have to be constrained by 'realism'.

AmberVael
2010-03-15, 09:02 PM
You could do worse, but that's not saying much when there are feats like Toughness.

Blind-fight isn't a bad mechanic, per say, but I would call it a bad investment. It's situational, and even in that situation it doesn't completely solve the problem. There are better and more fail-proof methods of dealing with miss chances, and things you need to spend your valuable feats on far more.

herrhauptmann
2010-03-15, 09:03 PM
Blind fight is meh. Now if you've got 'mageslayer' blindfight gets a lot better because it opens you up to Pierce Magical Concealment. Which is awesome.

How awesome you ask? I see people complaining that it lets a fighter in specific instances nerf the wizard.

AbyssKnight
2010-03-15, 09:13 PM
Screw rerolling the mischance. The reason you take Blind Fight is so you don't lose Dex against invisible opponents (and they don't get +2 to attack you).

Ambushed by Assasins? No Death Attack for you sucka!

Combined with Uncanny Dodge and 5 ranks of Balance, and you start getting pretty Sneak Attack-proof.

(Not totally of course, but it covers all the most common causes except flanking, which is counterable too)

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-15, 09:18 PM
I think your missing the full power of the feat, its more then rerolling miss chances.


In melee, every time you miss because of concealment, you can reroll your miss chance percentile roll one time to see if you actually hit.

An invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee. That is, you donít lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesnít get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible. The invisible attackerís bonuses do still apply for ranged attacks, however.

You take only half the usual penalty to speed for being unable to see. Darkness and poor visibility in general reduces your speed to three-quarters normal, instead of one-half.

So it does bit more then your saying, in addition not only is blindfight useful against invisible, opponents and wizards using the spell displacement or similar effects. It is very useful against enemies with gaze attacks.
By averting your eyes you take a 50% miss chance.

It really depends on your class and how many feats you have available. But I'd say its far more useful then the +3hp from toughness or the +HD from improved toughness.

AmberVael
2010-03-15, 09:22 PM
Alternately, you could get a magic item, spend a single level on one of various classes that would allow you to reliably see invisible and hiding creatures (not to mention in the darkness), or just get the wizard/sorcerer/bard to cast Glitterdust.

All much less expensive and better options (well, level is debatable depending on the build).

Thurbane
2010-03-15, 09:26 PM
I think Blind Fight is worthwhile, especially if you're getting it as a bonus feat. I've found in my experience, melee types come up against a visual based miss chances quite a lot (Darkness, fog, blur, displacement, blindness etc.). Getting to roll your miss chance as a "do-over" is pretty handy.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-03-15, 09:29 PM
Alternately, you could get a magic item, spend a single level on one of various classes that would allow you to reliably see invisible and hiding creatures (not to mention in the darkness), or just get the wizard/sorcerer/bard to cast Glitterdust.

All much less expensive and better options (well, level is debatable depending on the build).

Glitterdust won't save you after you've been stabbed, and a PrC often has feat and skill point requirements so your not really saving a thing.

For a magic item that simply grants see invisible you'd need a custom made item as preexisting items have limitations like you have to hold a gem of seeing to your eye or a blindfold of true darkness gives blindsight to 30ft and complete blindness beyond it.

Such invisible detecting items won't help against an enemy who simply has concealment as part of his defenses.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-15, 09:38 PM
I think your missing the full power of the feat, its more then rerolling miss chances.



So it does bit more then your saying, in addition not only is blindfight useful against invisible, opponents and wizards using the spell displacement or similar effects. It is very useful against enemies with gaze attacks.
By averting your eyes you take a 50% miss chance.

It really depends on your class and how many feats you have available. But I'd say its far more useful then the +3hp from toughness or the +HD from improved toughness.

I do know that, I'm just saying it should also let you strike invisible melee opponents without miss chance.

AmberVael
2010-03-15, 09:46 PM
Glitterdust won't save you after you've been stabbed, and a PrC often has feat and skill point requirements so your not really saving a thing.
Blind-Fight won't either. It doesn't protect you from being flat-footed after all, and it's not like you'll be able to see them coming...

By the time Blind-Fight or Glitterdust come into play, you're probably in the same situation, no matter which one you're using.

Also: One level of Warlock. See Invisibility + 60ft Darkvision.


For a magic item that simply grants see invisible you'd need a custom made item as preexisting items have limitations like you have to hold a gem of seeing to your eye or a blindfold of true darkness gives blindsight to 30ft and complete blindness beyond it.

Such invisible detecting items won't help against an enemy who simply has concealment as part of his defenses.

There are all kinds of items in the MiC.
Blindsighted Weapon, Ethereal Reaver, Illusion Bane, Dragon Mask, Corsair's Eye Patch, Eyes of Truth, Crystal Mask of Virtual Insight...

And probably more, but that's what a quick perusal turns up. Some are more useful than others.


That said, if you want to talk about Core, then yes, Blind-Fight has much more of a use there. Especially since if you're taking it, you're probably just a poor little old fighter.

Mastikator
2010-03-15, 10:24 PM
Blind fighting is pretty useful if you're going on a dungeon crawl and forgot to bring torches :P
But eh, I think it should grant some kind of non-combat bonus too for when you don't see. Like maybe some kind of 50% chance to predict the kind of ground adjective to you, so you don't accidentally fall off a cliff / into lava/acid/turbulent water with your fullplate on

ericgrau
2010-03-16, 02:15 AM
Combine it with a decent listen modifier to locate the invisible sucker's square and you're in business. Hitting a DC 20 will work most of the time, as it picks up attacks and casting. Hearing movement is harder at DC move silently check + 20, but even then few of your enemies will be good at stealth so you can simply target the others. Intentionally drop some concealment or have a caster do so and you can get even more mileage out of it. It's a great feat out of the core feats. Glitterdust, invisibility, similar monster special abilities, etc., etc. become minor inconveniences.

Sliver
2010-03-16, 02:37 AM
Blindfight is useful when you have wizards with you that like dumping fog or stuff mid fighting zone. Your enemies are way more hindered by it then you, and it's less situational in that case, for you..

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-16, 02:55 AM
Blindfight is really good for creatures with the ability to pinpoint (scent, blindsense, tremorsense, etc), as these abilities confer a 50% miss chance still.

The best part?

Let's say I have 15 feet reach, and we have 5 feet of visibility. I have blindsense and blindfighting.

Now, I attack from 15 feet away. When I do this, you know the general direction the attacks come from. However, if you don't have blindfight, you're flatfooted, which helps mitigate your AC. Now let's say I'm delivering a touch spell. Now it's flatfooted touch AC. Your accuracy is likely gonna be around 72% against almost the entire monster manual (25% miss chance from concealment, 5% miss chance from attack roll).

Pluto
2010-03-16, 02:59 AM
It's a nice option for Heroism/Mirror Move.

I was curious how useful the blind fighting feat is supposed to be. My DM says its ok but that it sucks in a large scale way and there are many better feats to take.
If that's what your DM said, it's not going to be useful.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-03-16, 03:43 AM
I would only take Blind Fighting if I were planning to get Combat Awareness from PH2, which it is a prerequisite for.

Eldariel
2010-03-16, 03:58 AM
I would only take Blind Fighting if I were planning to get Combat Awareness from PH2, which it is a prerequisite for.

It's also a prerequisite for e.g. Pierce Magical Concealment & Master of the Nine, both quite potent. Inherently, it's not the worst feat ever, but not good enough to take without an accelerated feat accumulation rate either.

taltamir
2010-03-16, 04:34 AM
Alternately, you could get a magic item, spend a single level on one of various classes that would allow you to reliably see invisible and hiding creatures (not to mention in the darkness), or just get the wizard/sorcerer/bard to cast Glitterdust.

All much less expensive and better options (well, level is debatable depending on the build).

there is a good chance a wizard or a sorcerer casting glitterdusk is the reason you are blind in the first place. (an enemy wizard/sorcerer)
shaped glitterdust is a level lower then invisibility.


Screw rerolling the mischance. The reason you take Blind Fight is so you don't lose Dex against invisible opponents (and they don't get +2 to attack you).

Ambushed by Assasins? No Death Attack for you sucka!

Combined with Uncanny Dodge and 5 ranks of Balance, and you start getting pretty Sneak Attack-proof.

(Not totally of course, but it covers all the most common causes except flanking, which is counterable too)

All the more reason to take it. I love blind fight, it comes up really really often. And when you need it, you REALLY need it.

Superglucose
2010-03-16, 04:42 AM
Getting Touchsight or Blindsight somehow is a lot more powerful. That being said, you're probably talking about taking that feat as a fighter. This is why fighters are underpowered: their class feature is the ability to spend feats on less useful versions of the toys casters have.

I mean think about it... Weapon Focus vs Magic Weapon. Improved Trip vs Grease. Combat Expertise vs Shield. Improved Critical vs Keen. Anyways I digress...

Instead of using the feat for Blindfighting, try to get some form of Blindsight. Rerolling miss chance can be helpful if you have the feats to burn, but never having to roll the miss chance in the first place is better.

taltamir
2010-03-16, 04:56 AM
I always thought their usefulness lied in maximizing the usefulness of buff. most of those things you listed STACK...
so a wizard with magic weapon is not as good as a fighter with magic weapon. And you can cast magic weapon and keen on a +1/+9 worth of enchantments weapon and get something really nice...

My favorite tactic in CRPGS is a fighter with great cleave, min maxed reach from any source I can get, and buffs up the wazoo. at level 6 through 10 you get three attacks (haste), each one of them dealing 40+ damage, each time it kills something, you get another free attack, and if you position yourself right, you will get a LOT of free attacks. You can down dozens of enemies per round. And the buffs last a while so you can run from room to room and slaughter hundreds of enemies on just a few spells.
Of course, the cleric does the same thing, but the fighter having extra feats gives him an edge.

when you come across the occasional "boss" you can down it with your wizard if needed... or hit it with a dispel and send in the fighter. (often times the fighter can still take him... especially if he has blind fight; its hilarious to just rip through DR because you do 40-60 damage per hit)

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-16, 05:14 AM
Getting Touchsight or Blindsight somehow is a lot more powerful. That being said, you're probably talking about taking that feat as a fighter. This is why fighters are underpowered: their class feature is the ability to spend feats on less useful versions of the toys casters have.

I mean think about it... Weapon Focus vs Magic Weapon. Improved Trip vs Grease. Combat Expertise vs Shield. Improved Critical vs Keen. Anyways I digress...

Some of the things you listed are made to work on fighter (keen edge, magical weapon).

Not to say that is a good thing being stuck with a feat, or that the wiz cannot rearrange his studied spell each day, but... I'm digressing too.

Anyway, speaking for experience, I've seen that this feat made the difference several times. Always worthy? Nope.

But, as stated above, try to maximize the effect of the feats you take. Synergize (see the example with mage slayer). Atfer all, that's the key of the difference between a good fighter and "fighter suxx".. the way you combine feats and gain the maximum advantage from them.

Person_Man
2010-03-16, 09:01 AM
I think that if your DM uses Invisibility and/or Miss Chances of any sort on a semi-regular basis, then it's definitely worth taking. Also, when I play a Rogue I will often buy a Ring of Blinking and take Blind Fighting so that all of my attacks qualify for Sneak Attack, but the 20% Miss Chance that I suffer from Blink is mitigated (or eliminated if I can afford to spend a feat on Pierce Magical Concealment as well).

Terminus
2010-05-21, 04:55 PM
I apologize for the thread necro, but Blind-Fight does absolutely nothing to mitigate the miss chance from Ring of Blinking, as you are becoming ethereal, and not merely invisible. SRD specifically states Blind-Fight feat does nothing.

Otherwise, that'd be a sweet combo.

Greenish
2010-05-21, 05:03 PM
I apologize for the thread necro, but Blind-Fight does absolutely nothing to mitigate the miss chance from Ring of Blinking, as you are becoming ethereal, and not merely invisible. SRD specifically states Blind-Fight feat does nothing.

Otherwise, that'd be a sweet combo.The point is that you use the ring, and the text states that "the Blind-Fight feat is of no use against a character who is the subject of a blink spell." Also, in before lock.

Heliomance
2010-05-21, 05:53 PM
Probably won't be locked, it's only a two month resurrection.

2xMachina
2010-05-22, 04:10 AM
Wait, I thought it was 3 weeks tops?

Or did I remember wrongly? *begins to dig some almost dead threads* :smallwink:

Zen Master
2010-05-22, 04:17 AM
Well - combined with the ability to spread obscuring mist, I kinda like it.

IdleMuse
2010-05-22, 08:16 AM
Blind-Fight is one of those feats that becomes more useful the more inventive the GM is. In a standard fairly-dull dungeon-crawl I'd never take it, in favour of optimisation. However, in a complex political game, or one with innovative combat situations (like an urban setting for instance), I always kinda wish I had it. The number of times i've had to fight in the dark, or with a blindfold on, makes it very situationally useful, especially for the sneaky kind who are going to be trying to operate 'in the dark'.

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-05-22, 09:56 AM
The point is that you use the ring, and the text states that "the Blind-Fight feat is of no use against a character who is the subject of a blink spell." Also, in before lock.
The difference is that there is partial concealment for the person attacking the blink subject. Even if you can attack ethereal creatures, you still have a miss chance for concealment. The blink subject, on the other hand, doesnít suffer penalties for concealment at all. So anything that eases or negates miss chance due to concealment for the blink subject is totally worthless. The description doesnít need to say that Blind-fight wonít work for that person because concealment isnít a factor at all.


Wait, I thought it was 3 weeks tops?
Month and a half and past page three. Really, itís spelled out in an easily-accessible link:

Thread Necromancy
Bringing a thread back from ďthe dead.Ē If a thread has fallen to page three and hasnít been posted in for a month and a half, donít post to it. Start a new topic if you want to discuss the subject.

2xMachina
2010-05-22, 12:32 PM
Ah, just found it.

I thought it was a pinned topic in an Announcement section (which I can't find), but instead, it's above every section.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-22, 01:08 PM
I've seen Blind-Fight used to good effect against casters who make good use of Mirror Image. The Blind-Fighting character would walk up to a mirror-imaged caster, then close his eyes and swing. Suddenly, that 1/8 chance of hitting is dropped to a 50% chance of hitting, twice (math?). Much better odds than just swinging and hoping you hit the right image.