PDA

View Full Version : ToB: Maneuvers known and multiclass adepts



Master_Rahl22
2010-03-16, 01:04 PM
It seems pretty clear to me that a character with levels in Swordsage and Warblade would have 2 different lists of maneuvers, and track them separately since they have different recovery methods. What is less clear is whether Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, or Stone Dragon maneuvers (the disciplines those classes share) can count as being known for prereqs of higher level maneuvers across the classes. For example, Sudden Leap requires 1 Tiger Claw maneuver known to learn. Could the character above with Swordsage and Warblade levels learn Claw at the Moon as a Warblade, and then learn Sudden Leap as a Swordsage with no other TC maneuvers on the SS list?

DragoonWraith
2010-03-16, 01:05 PM
I believe they would but I don't think Tome of Battle makes this explicit one way or the other anywhere.

Really, the prerequisites are there primarily for people using Martial Study. If they're actually Martial Adepts, I wouldn't worry about them too much.

Master_Rahl22
2010-03-16, 01:09 PM
If you're right, it leads to some pretty nifty tricks, such as taking a few levels of Swordsage early to grab a bunch of useful utility type maneuvers as prereqs, then grabbing Warblade/Crusader levels for the maneuvers you'll want to re-use.

Semi-related, would Adaptive Style let you choose new readied maneuvers for all of your different maneuver lists? I'm playing around with some ToB cheese for an arena type character, so this is more than just idle speculation. I could win a game on the internet! :smalltongue:

Greenish
2010-03-16, 01:12 PM
Semi-related, would Adaptive Style let you choose new readied maneuvers for all of your different maneuver lists? I'm playing around with some ToB cheese for an arena type character, so this is more than just idle speculation. I could win a game on the internet! :smalltongue:Adaptive Style allows you to swap and re-ready all of your maneuvers, I believe.

Godskook
2010-03-16, 01:13 PM
What is less clear is whether Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, or Stone Dragon maneuvers (the disciplines those classes share) can count as being know for prereqs of higher level maneuvers across the classes. For example, Sudden Leap requires 1 Tiger Claw maneuver known to learn. Could the character above with Swordsage and Warblade levels learn Claw at the Moon as a Warblade, and then learn Sudden Leap as a Swordsage with no other TC maneuvers on the SS list?

ToB is actually clear on this, but hides where it says so. If you know a maneuver, you know it. Period. There's no checking about why you know the maneuver. I'm AFB or I'd try to look it up. This also means you're not allowed to learn the same maneuver twice under separate classes.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-16, 01:13 PM
There's no requirement stated anywhere that you must know a maneuver from a given class--and given that you can't learn a maneuver more than once, as Godskook pointed out, it would cause problems for a few things if maneuvers known were tracked separately. So it's all but guaranteed that it works, but it's not technically RAW.

And yes, Adaptive Style works for all of your maneuvers.

DeltaEmil
2010-03-16, 01:13 PM
If you're right, it leads to some pretty nifty tricks, such as taking a few levels of Swordsage early to grab a bunch of useful utility type maneuvers as prereqs, then grabbing Warblade/Crusader levels for the maneuvers you'll want to re-use.

Hmm, semi-related, would Adaptive Style let you choose new readied maneuvers for all 3 classes?According to the Wotc-sage, yes.
But the new readied maneuvers need to be different, and it's rather useless for the warblade anyway who can recharge his maneuvers with one standart action.
It is also doubtful that this will ever come up in praxis, as most combats shouldn't last longer than four rounds normally.

Emmerask
2010-03-16, 01:13 PM
I believe they would but I don't think Tome of Battle makes this explicit one way or the other anywhere.

Really, the prerequisites are there primarily for people using Martial Study. If they're actually Martial Adepts, I wouldn't worry about them too much.

Well the preqs only say that you need to know x maneuver of the school not that those have to come from a specific class so I would rule that your example works.

Greenish
2010-03-16, 01:25 PM
But the new readied maneuvers need to be different, and it's rather useless for the warblade anyway who can recharge his maneuvers with one standart action.You don't have to change your maneuvers when you use Adaptive Style, and warblade recovery requires swift and standard actions.

DeltaEmil
2010-03-16, 01:39 PM
You don't have to change your maneuvers when you use Adaptive Style, and warblade recovery requires swift and standard actions.Yes, that's true, you don't have to change them, but you would want to as a swordsage so that you get other unexpended maneuvers if you're in a long-drawn fight and can't use full-round actions every round. Which would the only time where this opportunity to use Adaptive Style per the Sage's advice would come in effect.

Douglas
2010-03-16, 01:41 PM
Using Adaptive Style resets your expended maneuvers. Picking the same maneuvers or a new set makes no difference to this; either way, the maneuvers you pick are all readied and unexpended.

DeltaEmil
2010-03-16, 01:47 PM
Adaptive Style doesn't specify that it resets all expended maneuvers back into unexpended. It only tells that you can change all your readied maneuvers with a full round action.
So an expended maneuver would still remain expended if you didn't change it with Adaptive Style. At least, as I interpete the rules.

Douglas
2010-03-16, 01:59 PM
It works "as if you had just readied your maneuvers for the day", which among other things means they're all unexpended. This is the official WotC interpretation of it, btw.

Darkfire
2010-03-16, 02:01 PM
From page 38 the Main FAQ found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

If a character uses the Adaptive Style feat (ToB 28) after he has expended some of his readied maneuvers, does he choose new readied maneuvers equal to the maximum number he can ready, or equal to the number he hasnít yet expended?
Using the Adaptive Style feat completely resets the characterís readied maneuvers, making them all available for use. If youíre a crusader, you also reset your granted maneuvers.

This seems to come up on a fairly regular basis.

Edit: fixed page number

Emmerask
2010-03-16, 02:03 PM
nvm answered

DragoonWraith
2010-03-16, 03:33 PM
Adaptive Style doesn't specify that it resets all expended maneuvers back into unexpended. It only tells that you can change all your readied maneuvers with a full round action.
So an expended maneuver would still remain expended if you didn't change it with Adaptive Style. At least, as I interpete the rules.
That point is arguable by RAW as presented in the book, but the official FAQ clarified that the intent, at least, was that they are all reset. FAQ is not RAW, and quite a few of their rulings have been blindingly stupid, but this is not a clear cut case in the RAW alone, and moreover the FAQ ruling is the only one that makes sense from a balance perspective.

Denying Adaptive Style the ability to reset maneuvers makes Swordsages extremely difficult to play. As soon as they run out of their initial set of maneuvers, they are officially useless if that is the case. And no, they don't get enough maneuvers to "not run out", especially not if they're using their capstone.

Master_Rahl22
2010-03-16, 04:40 PM
Wow, I'm now envisioning a character that is mostly Unarmed Swordsage since the character is not allowed weapons or armor, and then splashes a level or 2 of Crusader and Warblade at the end of the build for a large burst of "I'll have some level 3 and 4 Devoted Spirit and Iron Heart maneuvers kthxbye". Wow, Thicket of Blades + x Throw + Deformity (Tall) = you just thought you could get adjacent to my character. :smallbiggrin:

Greenish
2010-03-16, 04:49 PM
Wow, Thicket of Blades + x Throw + Deformity (Tall) = you just thought you could get adjacent to my character. :smallbiggrin:You can't use Setting Sun throws on AoOs.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-16, 04:57 PM
There's a Counter somewhere that allows the use of a Strike for an AoO, but that might have been Homebrew, I'm not sure.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-03-16, 05:17 PM
There's a Counter somewhere that allows the use of a Strike for an AoO, but that might have been Homebrew, I'm not sure.

Pretty sure it's homebrew. You can achieve the same effect with a readied action, though, assuming you're not facing too many enemies.

Runestar
2010-03-16, 06:02 PM
Adaptive Style doesn't specify that it resets all expended maneuvers back into unexpended. It only tells that you can change all your readied maneuvers with a full round action.
So an expended maneuver would still remain expended if you didn't change it with Adaptive Style. At least, as I interpete the rules.

You change your list of readied maneuvers with adaptive style, which are then immediately made available to you.

It is not exactly refreshing them in the technical sense (it won't trigger vital recovery for instance, a feat which restores hp when you refresh your maneuvers). But otherwise, the benefit is virtually indistinguishable from refreshing them.

Master_Rahl22
2010-03-17, 08:31 PM
You can't use Setting Sun throws on AoOs.

Yes, I know but the fact that I can probably trip them before they get adjacent, and even if I can't then I can probably throw them away and deal damage is really nice. Heck, since the Throws are standard actions, if both fail I could just move away too.