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SSGoW
2010-03-17, 11:33 PM
I'm going to try out a bard eventually (this will be a reserve character) but I don't like the core bard. So far I'm liking the Savage Bard, Divine Bard, and Harbringer (all found on crystalkeep).

I'm thinking of combining the Harbringer's bardic abilities with either the Savage Bard or the Divine bard (thus getting rid of the normal bardic powers). Right now I'm leaning torward the Savage Bard so that my bard will stay Charisma based. Anyone have any advice? Also even if I don't use this character anytime soon I want to create him/her anyways.

I was even thinking of make two sheets, making one by rolling for stats and the other one using a point buy method. *shrug*

Oh and are there any other Bard variants I should be aware of?

Kaulesh
2010-03-17, 11:53 PM
If you have Unorthodox Bards, there are loads of variants there. I'm partial to Troubad'war, myself. Just imagine some grizzled old man with a one-handed axe and a guitar strapped to his back, fighting in the name of love.

gorfnab
2010-03-17, 11:56 PM
Oh and are there any other Bard variants I should be aware of?
You got the main two. Savage Bard + Harbringer will probably be your best bet, otherwise here is a handy list of Bard ACFs

Taken from Alternative Class Features III (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III)

Bardic Knack (PHB 2, p 35): Lose bardic knowledge, gain the ability to use half your class level in place of skill ranks.

Bardic Sage (UA, p 49): Adds additional spells and bonus to knowledge in exchange for reduced Bardic music abilities.

Divine Bards (UA, p 50): Wisdom used to determine if you can cast a spell, Charisma used for all other factors, some spells added to the the bard spell list.

Drow Bard (DU, p 57): Gain poison use, lose bardic knowledge and 1 bardic music use/day.

Gnome Bard Substitution Levels (RS, p 147):
1st level: Gnome Cantrips (swap some 0-level spells), Counter Fear (replaces countersong)
3rd level: Inspire Defiance (resistance to mind-affecting), lose inspire competence
6th level: Phantasmal Song (fear-like song), lose suggestion
11th level: Secrets of Bardic Trickery, lose a 4th level spell known, get new spells

Half-Elf Bard Substitution Levels (RD, p 157):
1st level: Soothing voice, no countersong
6th level: Command, no suggesion
8th level: Secrets of the Diplomat (bonus spells known), lose 4th level spell known

Healing Hymn (CC, p 47): lose fascinate, boost natural healing and healing spells.

Hymn of Fortification (CC, p 47): lose inspire competence, use bardic music to generate protection from evil type effects.

Inspire Awe (DrM, p 13): Gain ability to inspire awe instead of courage.

Inspire Hatred (EoE, p 21): lose inspire greatness, gain inspire hatred

Inspire Turning (ECR, p 206): Replace Inspire Competence with the ability to boost an ally's ability to turn undead by spending a bardic music attempt they gain +2 levels on their turn check.

Loresong (DS, p 8): Give up bardic knowledge. Once per day (more at higher levels) add +4 bonus to an attack, save, or check roll.

Mimicking Song (DS, p 8): Give up countersong. Use bardic music to give allies a +2 bonus on move silently.

Nature Bard (UA, p 58): gain animal companion, nature sense, resist nature's lure, and wild empathy as a druid. Lose bardic knowledge, inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, and inspire heroics.

Planar Bard (PlH, p 29):
3rd level: Planar Inspiration (can use music to protect people from planar effects), lose inspire competence
6th level: Planar Dissonance (can temporarily redirect portals to new locations), lose suggestion
12h level: Planar Discordance (can use bardic music as a precipitate breach spell), lose song of freedom

Repel Domination (ECR, p 206): Lose suggestion power. +2 bonus on saves vs mind affecting spells and abilities of the undead, if you succeed in the save they become shaken.

Savage Bard (UA, p 50): Must be chaotic, good fortitude and will save, poor reflex. Modified skill and spell list. Illiterate.

Spellbreaker Song (CM, p 35): Lose countersong, can use bardic music to disrupt casters, giving them 20% spell failure chance.

Spellscale Bard Substitution Levels (RDr, p 110):
1st level: Draconic Bardic Knowledge (bonus on bardic lore checks involving dragons)
3rd level: Inspire Arcana (music gives +1 caster levels), no inspire competence
6th level: Superior Suggestion (higher DC's with suggestion)

Undead Bardic Knowledge (ECR, p 206): Replace Bard Knowledge with specialized knowledge about the undead, works like normal bardic knowledge but with a +5 competence bonus.

More can be found here (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf) starting on page 16.

Leon
2010-03-18, 09:01 AM
I like Savage and Nature - my backup character for a current game is a Savage Natural Bard/Druidic Avenger Arcane Hirophant.

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 09:16 AM
Savage Bard is the best. The only real use for Divine Bard is to give Archivists nifty spells; they are too MAD to be much more use than that, and if you're willing to deal with the MADness you're better off as a Favored Soul.

SSGoW
2010-03-18, 02:58 PM
Hmmm out of all of them I like the Savage and Harbringer but some of the other ones are interesting.

As for some fluff...
I was thinking that the bard will sing like Richard Cheese and look basically what you would think a barbarian would look like (except with a rapier . Anytime he countersongs it will be him doing beat-box :D

As for less than fluff... For feats at first level I'll get 2 since I'm going human

Spellcasting Prodigy (first level only)
For purposes of determining bonus spells, treat your primary spellcasting ability score (i.e., Intelligence for
Wizards, Wisdom for Clerics, Druids, Paladins, & Rangers, etc.) as 2 higher.
You may take this feat multiple times, each time applying to a different ability score.
Note: you do not need to be able to cast spell yet when you take this feat.
-This will help with the lack of spells that a bard gets (only a bit though)

Extra Music
[General]
(Eb p52)
(CAdv p109)
Bardic Music class ability You may use your Bardic Music 4 extra times per day.
Note: You may take this feat multiple times.

Since I've never played a bard before I'm not sure what other feats would be good but for later on I figured I would work around this.

Lyric Spell
[General]
(CAdv p113)
Bardic Music class ability
Concentration: 12 ranks
Ability to cast 2nd level
Spontaneous Arcane
spells
As a Standard Action, you may cast one of your available Spontaneous Arcane Spells by expending (1 + spell level) uses of Bardic Music.
You cannot use this feat to cast a spell with the Silent Spell metamagic feat applied to it.

Music of Making
[General]
(Eb p57)
Bardic Music class ability
Perform: 9 ranks
By consuming one of your daily uses of Bardic Music, you may do one of the following:
1. The duration of a Conjuration (creation) spell you cast is doubled.
2. Gain a +4 Sacred bonus on your Craft check.

I figure this will give me a secnd "pool" for spells and with music of making the summon's will stay around longer

I'm really liking this character lol

*edit* I usually get high rolls so I'm not to worried about missing with melee attacks, I'm going for a keen rapier (eventually) for the awesome crit range though.

Gametime
2010-03-18, 03:00 PM
Hmmm out of all of them I like the Savage and Harbringer but some of the other ones are interesting.

As for some fluff...
I was thinking that the bard will sing like Richard Cheese and look basically what you would think a barbarian would look like (except with a rapier . Anytime he countersongs it will be him doing beat-box :D

As for less than fluff... For feats at first level I'll get 2 since I'm going human

Spellcasting Prodigy (first level only)
For purposes of determining bonus spells, treat your primary spellcasting ability score (i.e., Intelligence for
Wizards, Wisdom for Clerics, Druids, Paladins, & Rangers, etc.) as 2 higher.
You may take this feat multiple times, each time applying to a different ability score.
Note: you do not need to be able to cast spell yet when you take this feat.
-This will help with the lack of spells that a bard gets (only a bit though)

Extra Music
[General]
(Eb p52)
(CAdv p109)
Bardic Music class ability You may use your Bardic Music 4 extra times per day.
Note: You may take this feat multiple times.

Since I've never played a bard before I'm not sure what other feats would be good but for later on I figured I would work around this.

Lyric Spell
[General]
(CAdv p113)
Bardic Music class ability
Concentration: 12 ranks
Ability to cast 2nd level
Spontaneous Arcane
spells
As a Standard Action, you may cast one of your available Spontaneous Arcane Spells by expending (1 + spell level) uses of Bardic Music.
You cannot use this feat to cast a spell with the Silent Spell metamagic feat applied to it.

Music of Making
[General]
(Eb p57)
Bardic Music class ability
Perform: 9 ranks
By consuming one of your daily uses of Bardic Music, you may do one of the following:
1. The duration of a Conjuration (creation) spell you cast is doubled.
2. Gain a +4 Sacred bonus on your Craft check.

I figure this will give me a secnd "pool" for spells and with music of making the summon's will stay around longer

I'm really liking this character lol

Extra Music is only really useful if you're planning on multiclassing out of bard. Otherwise, 1 use/level should be fine.

Music of Making doesn't increase the duration of summoning spells. It only affect Conjuration (creation) spells, not Conjuration (summoning).

If you're going to be in melee a lot, look into picking up Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn) sometime soon.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-18, 03:02 PM
Why is savage bard so good? It gets a few nicer spells, but it's not that much...

Starscream
2010-03-18, 03:05 PM
Incidentally, Bardic Knack is awesome. I always take that one. Combine it with that feat (forget what it's called) that makes every skill a class skill, and a bard makes a dang good skill-monkey.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-03-18, 03:07 PM
I really enjoy the Bardic Knack variant for some reason. Maybe it fits the jack-of-all-trades thing in my mind.

absolmorph
2010-03-18, 03:12 PM
Incidentally, Bardic Knack is awesome. I always take that one. Combine it with that feat (forget what it's called) that makes every skill a class skill, and a bard makes a dang good skill-monkey.
Able Learner?

I'd suggest Dragonfire Inspiration, which, IIRC, allows you to trade the +x bonus from Inspire Competence for xd6 elemental damage.

SSGoW
2010-03-18, 03:23 PM
Why the extra music? Lyrical Spell, more music then more spells that can be casted (as a standard action). Atleast that is the thought I got from the feat.

I might be in melee but not really sure exactly how as of right now (although the use of rage might come in play)

As soon as I have the first level sheet finished I'll post it

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-18, 03:26 PM
Able Learner?

I'd suggest Dragonfire Inspiration, which, IIRC, allows you to trade the +x bonus from Inspire Competence for xd6 elemental damage.

If we're in the mood for suggesting feats, you absolutely must pick up Words of Creation (BoED). It doubles you IC bonus, and combined with some of the other boosters to it, you can easily get +10d6 fire damage on attacks, or +10 to attack and damage to you and all of your friends.

SSGoW
2010-03-18, 04:19 PM
The Harbringer will already be getting rid of some of the bard's Inspire's and Songs and replace them with

Bardic Music Instill Fear N
Requires at least 3 ranks in Perform.
All opponents that can see & hear you receive a N penalty on saving throws vs. charm & fear effects, and on attacks & weapon damage (WillNeg, DC is
Charisma-based). Effect lasts as long as you continue the song and the opponent can hear you plus 5 rounds. This is a Mind-Affecting Fear effect.

Bardic Music Encourage Failure
Requires at least 6 ranks in Perform.
One opponent that can see & hear and is within 30 receives a 2 penalty on all rolls for 1 round (WillNeg, DC is Charisma-based). This is a Mind-Affecting
effect.

Bardic Music Dishearten
Requires at least 12 ranks in Perform.
One opponent (plus one per three levels above 15th) that can see & hear you for one full round and is within 30 receives a 4 penalty on saving throws and AC
(WillNeg, DC is Charisma-based). Effect lasts as long as you continue the song and the opponent(s) can hear you plus 5 rounds. This is a Mind-Affecting effect.

Bardic Music Dirge of Binding
Requires at least 15 ranks in Perform.
One opponent becomes paralyzed (WillNeg, DC is Charisma-based). Effect lasts as long as you continue the song and the opponent can hear you.

Bardic Music Drain Prowess
Requires at least 21 ranks in Perform.
One opponent (plus one per three levels above 18th) that can hear you for one full round and is within 30 receives 2 Negative Levels (WillNeg, DC is Charismabased). Effect lasts as long as you continue the song and the opponent(s) can hear you. The negative levels never result in permanent level loss.

I love these changes, these will make me feel more useful in terms of combat (if they hit) and with extra musc my bard will be able to sing/spell sling all day long :p

Anyone know what the starting gold for a bard is?

Grumman
2010-03-18, 04:26 PM
There's also the Trickster Spellthief, which gets Bard spellcasting.

Gorbash
2010-03-19, 07:44 PM
Where's Harbringer from?

Optimystik
2010-03-19, 07:55 PM
Why is savage bard so good? It gets a few nicer spells, but it's not that much...

Generally, its used for the fort save to enter Ur-Priest. Survival is also used in more PrCs than Decipher Script and Speak Language are.

SSGoW
2010-03-19, 08:35 PM
I got Harbringer from crystalkeep, I forget what book it is from though.

Savage bard is just for the barbarian feel, using rage will help also.

*edit*

Besides the route of skill monkey is there any feats that are worth their weight in salt that a bard should have? So far I will be taking Lyrical Spell and Extra music so I'll have more spells to cast.

If I take extra music each time (human so extra feat will go to lyrical spell) by level 18 that will be 7 feats X 4 uses (yes it stacks) = 28 bardic music + 18 levels (1 use per level ) = 46 bardic music uses... Lyrical spell lets you as a standard action cast a spell by exspending 1 + spell level bardic music uses.
This along with the spell the bard already gets would be great

But i'm afraid I'm missing some other feats (i'm checking crystalkeep again) that really help out bards.

I may use alot of summoning (for the fun of it :D popping out ALOT of critters could be chaos lol) so Augument Summoning may be worth it (+4 str and con tosummons)