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gooddragon1
2010-03-18, 01:28 AM
Just picking a cool name... probably not balanced... definitely not spam... but more for my use than anything else... I don't know how to classify this?

To quote Mr. Emps...


They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear.


... and steely muscle. They will have d12 HD and max saves that scale into epic levels. They shall have full base attack bonus that likewise scales. They shall have bits and pieces of every class and even stuff I made up. And they shall be proficient with everything.

Dreadnought

Game Rule Information

Alignment: Dreadnoughts can be of any alignment.
Hit Die: d12.
Starting Gold: 250.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:Dreadnoughts are proficient with all weapons, all armor, and all shields (including tower shields).

Skill Points: 8 + Int mod, x4 at first level.
Skills: All.

Dreadnought
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1/+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|Bonus feat, elite armored combatant, spell resistance, subconscious hypercognition, swift combatant

2nd|
+2/+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Bonus feat

3rd|
+3/+3/+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|Bonus feat

4th|
+4/+4/+4/+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|Bonus feat

5th|
+5/+5/+5/+5/+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|Bonus feat

6th|
+6 (6 attacks)|
+5|
+5|
+5|Bonus feat

7th|
+7 (7 attacks)|
+5|
+5|
+5|Bonus feat

8th|
+8 (8 attacks)|
+6|
+6|
+6|Bonus feat

9th|
+9 (9 attacks)|
+6|
+6|
+6|Bonus feat

10th|
+10 (10 attacks)|
+7|
+7|
+7|Bonus feat

11th|
+11 (11 attacks)|
+7|
+7|
+7|Bonus feat

12th|
+12 (12 attacks)|
+8|
+8|
+8|Bonus feat

13th|
+13 (13 attacks)|
+8|
+8|
+8|Bonus feat

14th|
+14 (14 attacks)|
+9|
+9|
+9|Bonus feat

15th|
+15 (15 attacks)|
+9|
+9|
+9|Bonus feat

16th|
+16 (16 attacks)|
+10|
+10|
+10|Bonus feat

17th|
+17 (17 attacks)|
+10|
+10|
+10|Bonus feat

18th|
+18 (18 attacks)|
+11|
+11|
+11|Bonus feat

19th|
+19 (19 attacks)|
+11|
+11|
+11|Bonus feat

20th|
+20 (20 attacks)|
+12|
+12|
+12|Bonus feat

21th|
+21 (21 attacks)|
+12|
+12|
+12|Bonus feat

22th|
+22 (22 attacks)|
+13|
+13|
+13|Bonus feat

23th|
+23 (23 attacks)|
+13|
+13|
+13|Bonus feat

24th|
+24 (24 attacks)|
+14|
+14|
+14|Bonus feat

25th|
+25 (25 attacks)|
+14|
+14|
+14|Bonus feat

26th|
+26 (26 attacks)|
+15|
+15|
+15|Bonus feat

27th|
+27 (27 attacks)|
+15|
+15|
+15|Bonus feat

28th|
+28 (28 attacks)|
+16|
+16|
+16|Bonus feat

29th|
+29 (29 attacks)|
+16|
+16|
+16|Bonus feat

30th|
+30 (30 attacks)|
+17|
+17|
+17|Bonus feat

31th|
+31 (31 attacks)|
+17|
+17|
+17|Bonus feat

32th|
+32 (32 attacks)|
+18|
+18|
+18|Bonus feat

33th|
+33 (33 attacks)|
+18|
+18|
+18|Bonus feat

34th|
+34 (34 attacks)|
+19|
+19|
+19|Bonus feat

35th|
+35 (35 attacks)|
+19|
+19|
+19|Bonus feat

36th|
+36 (36 attacks)|
+20|
+20|
+20|Bonus feat

37th|
+37 (37 attacks)|
+20|
+20|
+20|Bonus feat

38th|
+38 (38 attacks)|
+21|
+21|
+21|Bonus feat

39th|
+39 (39 attacks)|
+21|
+21|
+21|Bonus feat

40th|
+40 (40 attacks)|
+22|
+22|
+22|Bonus feat

...|
+Dreadnought Level (Dreadnought Level attacks)|
Dreadnought Level * 0.5 (rounded down) + 2|
Dreadnought Level * 0.5 (rounded down) + 2|
Dreadnought Level * 0.5 (rounded down) + 2|Derive from natural progression from levels 21-40[/table]

Class Features:

Bonus Feats: At each class level, a dreadnought gets a bonus feat. A dreadnought must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat.

Elite Armored Combatant (Ex): At 1st level, a dreadnought ignores the armor check penalty for wearing armor or wielding a shield, the spell failure chance, the maximum dexterity bonus, speed reductions, and is treated as unarmored when beneficial to him. Furthermore, all armor may be donned or removed as a full-round action.

Spell Resistance (Ex): At 1st level, a dreadnought gains spell resistance equal to his dreadnought level + his Charisma bonus (if any) + 20. In order to affect the dreadnought with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the dreadnought’s spell resistance.

Subconscious Hypercognition (Su): At 1st level, a dreadnought gains a bonus on all rolls (even d% rolls but excepting rolls for HP accumulation) and AC equal to his dreadnought level + his Charisma bonus (if any). He may choose to apply less than the full bonus on a case by case basis (to a minimum of 0). Unlike most supernatural abilities, this ability only ceases to function when the dreadnoughts charisma score reaches 0.

Swift Combatant (Ex): At 1st level, a dreadnought gains the ability make 1/4 (rounded down, minimum 1) the attacks allowed as a full attack with a standard action.

===

Was tempted for a mary sue ability... but I wanted something simple like a fighter with a lot bit more punch.

ALSO, because attack bonus and saves scale into epic levels, the dreadnought does not receive the epic attack and save bonuses.

TabletopNuke
2010-03-18, 05:34 PM
I have no idea where you're going with this, but the flavor text made me LOL.

Apropos
2010-03-18, 05:43 PM
They should have an ability at first level called Mary Sue (Ex) :smalltongue:

ScionoftheVoid
2010-03-18, 06:52 PM
So... It's the 40k flavouring of the Lightning Warrior, but possibly a bit weaker?

Mongoose87
2010-03-18, 06:55 PM
Ooh, oooh, give them an ability where they can re-roll any d% result they don't like!

gooddragon1
2010-03-18, 07:04 PM
Ooh, oooh, give them an ability where they can re-roll any d% result they don't like!

I had thought about having a thing where you could roll a d20 and any roll of 2 or higher would allow you to re-roll a dice of your choice... as many times as you wanted... but then I was like... that's a lot of rolling... why not just give them a bonus to all rolls with an ability? So I totally did!

finalepic
2010-03-18, 07:05 PM
So... It's the 40k flavouring of the Lightning Warrior, but possibly a bit weaker?

No. It's going to have a familiar. I'm certain of this.

Zexion
2010-03-18, 07:08 PM
Need I say that this is not balanced?

gooddragon1
2010-03-18, 07:11 PM
No. It's going to have a familiar. I'm certain of this.

It's just that a familiar distracts from the straightforward hack and slash approach we're taking here...


Need I say that this is not balanced?

Well... I mean you could say that... but it wouldn't be very nice.

Zexion
2010-03-18, 07:16 PM
Well, it is. Epic continuations of saves and BAB really break the balance of the game.

gooddragon1
2010-03-18, 07:21 PM
Well, it is. Epic continuations of saves and BAB really break the balance of the game.

Wall of Force. Shrink Item+Telekinesis+Rocks. GG. For all the pizazz this class has... it's really just a beefed up fighter. Has the same classic allergies to wizards that most fighters do (excepting that it has good spell resistance). Also, saves break the game against the characters favor unless they are all good (which these ones are).

finalepic
2010-03-18, 07:24 PM
Well, it is. Epic continuations of saves and BAB really break the balance of the game.

Uh. Epic levels have no balance. They're as balanced as a skydiving ox that's juggling more oxen who are in turn juggling flaming chainsaws. At least, that's been my experience with them.

Edit:I probably missed some sarcasm there. I'm sorry if I did :smallredface:

Also, an ox that can juggle is probably rather graceful. Better make him drunk.

gooddragon1
2010-03-19, 01:10 AM
Take that lightning warrior! (# of attacks buffed/swift combatant added)

Mongoose87
2010-03-19, 02:45 AM
Uh. Epic levels have no balance. They're as balanced as a skydiving ox that's juggling more oxen who are in turn juggling flaming chainsaws. At least, that's been my experience with them.


You've experienced that!?

imp_fireball
2010-03-19, 02:57 AM
Also, an ox that can juggle is probably rather graceful. Better make him drunk.

If he can do it drunk, then he's even more graceful though.

Mangles
2010-03-19, 04:54 PM
I can just see this guy getting his strength up to a point where he picks up a castle, studies it for a minute and than wails out of everyone.

Realms of Chaos
2010-03-19, 08:31 PM
I will try to review this seriously, with a straight face, and comparing it with the general balance of the entire game. I do not expect the class to survive this process. :smalltongue:
To reiterate, it is not my intention to flame or troll but rather to give a full and honest review of this class with suggestions on how to make it more balanced for general play.


Dreadnought

Rathe knew that magnitude of his ability scores afforded him greater power than simply attacking up to 4 times per round with a weapon and sought a way to use them to their full potential. This is the realization of that potential...

Hehehe...


Game Rule Information

Alignment: Dreadnoughts can be of any alignment.
Special: Character must be Rathe Darkharrow (See how exclusive it is? There's the balancing factor right there)
Hit Die: d12.
Starting Gold: 250.

Okay, I am already seeing a bit of a contradiction. Doesn't belonging to any alignment kind of go against being Rathe Darkharrow? Even if you're giving Rathe the most flexible morality ever, the alignment should read "As Rathe Darkharrow".
The second problem is requiring the character to be Rathe Darkharrow. As you say, this is rather restrictive. In fact, it is currently so restrictive that nobody can ever play it. No, not even you.
In DnD, everything relies on very precise definitions of terms. You don't require that a character be named Rathe Darkharrow or use a build specific to Rathe Darkharrow (both of which could be very precisely mimicked and used by anybody). Instead, you require that the character be Rathe Darkharrow, a description that lacks definition and that no character can thereby qualify for.
Even you, with your creative license and full mental idea of who Rathe Darkharrow is, can't meet a prerequisite that has absolutely no meaning in game terms. Give a precise definition of being Rathe Darkharrow or not even you can legally use it. :smallamused:
In short, you either provide a definition that allows everyone to use it or you don't and allow nobody to use it. This is not a balancing feature in any sense of the word.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency:Dreadnoughts are proficient with all weapons, all armor, and all shields (including tower shields). Furthermore, a dreadnought is treated as having any feat that would grant proficiency with something as long as he has at least a minute to examine it (this is known as the "matrix downloading a CD into the brain" effect).

This ability should be reworded due to multiple meanings of the word "proficiency". Although it typically refers to the ability to use a weapon/armor without penalty, certain players could stretch the term to mean having skill with something. Any player could get skill focus, weapon focus, or any number of bonus feats by spending 1 minute and giving a twisted description of how each feat makes them more proficient at a certain task.


Skill Points: 8 + Int mod, x4 at first level.
Skills: All.

No. This is really not balanced. In addition to whatever is to come, this guy is the undisputed master of skills, perhaps tied only with the changeling rogue substitution levels (does 2 extra skill points equal access to all skills?), which only gets its benefits for a total of 3 levels.
Give this guy a significantly reduced skill list and reduce the skill points to 6 + Int modifier (preferably 4 + Int modifier). If this guy is supposed to be a warrior, making him stomp on the feet of the skill monkey breaks the class, making this guy take up 2 roles in the party rather than 1.
The factotum is a good example of a skill monkey that can participate in combat without being broken or stealing someone else's job.




Dreadnought
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1/+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|Bonus feat, elite armored combatant, spell resistance, subconscious hypercognition, swift combatant

2nd|
+2/+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Bonus feat

3rd|
+3/+3/+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|Bonus feat

4th|
+4/+4/+4/+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|Bonus feat

5th|
+5/+5/+5/+5/+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|Bonus feat

6th|
+6 (6 attacks)|
+5|
+5|
+5|Bonus feat

7th|
+7 (7 attacks)|
+5|
+5|
+5|Bonus feat

8th|
+8 (8 attacks)|
+6|
+6|
+6|Bonus feat

9th|
+9 (9 attacks)|
+6|
+6|
+6|Bonus feat

10th|
+10 (10 attacks)|
+7|
+7|
+7|Bonus feat

11th|
+11 (11 attacks)|
+7|
+7|
+7|Bonus feat

12th|
+12 (12 attacks)|
+8|
+8|
+8|Bonus feat

13th|
+13 (13 attacks)|
+8|
+8|
+8|Bonus feat

14th|
+14 (14 attacks)|
+9|
+9|
+9|Bonus feat

15th|
+15 (15 attacks)|
+9|
+9|
+9|Bonus feat

16th|
+16 (16 attacks)|
+10|
+10|
+10|Bonus feat

17th|
+17 (17 attacks)|
+10|
+10|
+10|Bonus feat

18th|
+18 (18 attacks)|
+11|
+11|
+11|Bonus feat

19th|
+19 (19 attacks)|
+11|
+11|
+11|Bonus feat

20th|
+20 (20 attacks)|
+12|
+12|
+12|Bonus feat

21th|
+21 (21 attacks)|
+12|
+12|
+12|Bonus feat

22th|
+22 (22 attacks)|
+13|
+13|
+13|Bonus feat

23th|
+23 (23 attacks)|
+13|
+13|
+13|Bonus feat

24th|
+24 (24 attacks)|
+14|
+14|
+14|Bonus feat

25th|
+25 (25 attacks)|
+14|
+14|
+14|Bonus feat

26th|
+26 (26 attacks)|
+15|
+15|
+15|Bonus feat

27th|
+27 (27 attacks)|
+15|
+15|
+15|Bonus feat

28th|
+28 (28 attacks)|
+16|
+16|
+16|Bonus feat

29th|
+29 (29 attacks)|
+16|
+16|
+16|Bonus feat

30th|
+30 (30 attacks)|
+17|
+17|
+17|Bonus feat

31th|
+31 (31 attacks)|
+17|
+17|
+17|Bonus feat

32th|
+32 (32 attacks)|
+18|
+18|
+18|Bonus feat

33th|
+33 (33 attacks)|
+18|
+18|
+18|Bonus feat

34th|
+34 (34 attacks)|
+19|
+19|
+19|Bonus feat

35th|
+35 (35 attacks)|
+19|
+19|
+19|Bonus feat

36th|
+36 (36 attacks)|
+20|
+20|
+20|Bonus feat

37th|
+37 (37 attacks)|
+20|
+20|
+20|Bonus feat

38th|
+38 (38 attacks)|
+21|
+21|
+21|Bonus feat

39th|
+39 (39 attacks)|
+21|
+21|
+21|Bonus feat

40th|
+40 (40 attacks)|
+22|
+22|
+22|Bonus feat

...|
+Dreadnought Level (Dreadnought Level attacks)|
Dreadnought Level * 0.5 (rounded down) + 2|
Dreadnought Level * 0.5 (rounded down) + 2|
Dreadnought Level * 0.5 (rounded down) + 2|Derive from natural progression from levels 21-40[/table]

Okay, this is a bit overpowered. Going against what has been said, having BAB progress into epic levels does not overpower the game (although it unfortunately overshadows other martial classes).

Also, I see absolutely no point in continuing saving throw progression as the epic bonus would increase your saves at the same exact rate.

The attacks, however, are more troublesome. Even though the monk is generally considered underpowered, the amount of attacks that this guy has simply laughs at it. In fact, this amount of attacks simply insults all other martial classes in existance and the thought of making about 3 attacks per second at level 20 is just something that I can't even picture in my head.

Furthermore, the ideal of being a dreadnought, traditionally thought of as a very tough warrior who wades through battle and slaughters foes... well, it just doesn't seem too indicative of attacks that move faster than the naked eye can track.

The lack of decreasing BAB for iterative attacks is a less troublesome thing. Races of War (by Frank and K) discussed how iterative attacks are kind of troublesome. As you make no reference to this material, however, it is assumed that you mean for this class to be balanced using basic rules.

As this guy never really gets a fighting style of his own, I'd simply make it so that you gain one attack at first level (which makes sense even if you choose to stay with the 1 attack/level scheme you have going on) and gain another attack per 3 points of BAB (eventually ending up with 7 attacks at level 18).
Although it would be pretty darn powerful (godly in gestalt) and take the place of a few other martial classes, it wouldn't be anything that a properly optomized barbarian, warblade, or even rogue couldn't outdo.


Class Features:

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a dreadnought gets a bonus feat. The dreadnought gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every dreadnought level thereafter. A dreadnought must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat.

You keep saying that this class is a beefed up fighter but this is the only thing that possibly suggests that. It's a pretty big thing, mind you, but the good saves, awesome skills, better HD, better attack progression, and other abilities really make this class look nothing like a fighter any more and look more like an accumulation of the best bits of every noncaster class stuck together in a wierd, overpowered accumulation.
I'd personally recommend reducing the feats to levels 1 and all even levels like the generalist warrior from unearthed arcana. That they don't need to be bonus fighter feats makes this ability very powerful and it frankly doesn't seem to meed so many of them.
Even if you choose not to change it, here is a potential rewording that simplifies things a bit.

Bonus Feats: At each class level, a dreadnought gets a bonus feat. A dreadnought must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat.


Elite Armored Combatant (Ex): At 1st level, a dreadnought ignores the armor check penalty for wearing armor or wielding a shield, the spell failure chance, the maximum dexterity bonus, speed reductions, and is treated as unarmored when beneficial to him. Furthermore, all armor may be donned or removed as a full-round action.

This ability makes this class unspeakably good for a 1 level dip. Also, it would be a bit broken for a monk to take a level in this to gain the full benefits of their class features while wearing full-plate and carrying a tower shield. Donning and removing armor that fast isn't overpowered but it is once again very difficult to imagine.
Speaking seriously, if this was intended to be a Mary Sue character, it should be very important to be able to picture every second of what Ruthe Darkharrow is doing (in all of his glorious awesomeness). When you put in an ability like this which is gratuitous to the point of being un-imaginable, you kind of defeat the purpose of even having that character in the first place.

I'd personally move this ability to level 2 so that the class isn't too front-loaded and consider removing that last line.

Spell Resistance (Ex): At 1st level, a dreadnought gains spell resistance equal to his dreadnought level + his Charisma bonus (if any) + 20. In order to affect the dreadnought with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the dreadnought’s spell resistance.

There are very few ways to get SR at level 1 and most of them have level adjustment. As such, this ability is obviously overpowered. A 1st level dreadnought with 20 charisma has SR 26, more than any 1st level wizard can accomplish without first using true casting (from complete mage).

Making a class balanced against an optimized build of an unbalanced class (the wizard) does not give you good balance over all. If you must have the SR, reduce it to 5 + level + Cha mod. At levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20, improve it by 1 point. That would be very powerful but maintain some modicum of balance.

On another note, it is interesting how you are giving this class a bit of MAD by stressing the importance of otherwise unneeded Charisma.


Subconscious Hypercognition (Su): At 1st level, a dreadnought gains a bonus on all rolls (even d% rolls but excepting rolls for HP accumulation and similar rolls) and AC equal to his dreadnought level + his Charisma bonus (if any). Unlike most supernatural abilities, this ability only ceases to function when the dreadnoughts charisma score reaches 0.

You should be more specific about what rolls you do not add to so that we are not left to wonder. As stated earlier, DnD relies on specific rules.
Also, you may not want to add to d% rolls as (for example) some DMs have you hit concealed foes if you roll low instead of high.

Does the last line mean that antimagic zones don't work? In that case, why not make this an extraordinary ability? Nothing that it does seems supernatural.

As for achieving balance, I would break this up over many levels, granting the bonus to damage rolls at level 1, attack rolls at level 5, skill checks at level 9, saving throws at level 13, and saving throws at level 17. No need to grant AC as you have full armor anyways.


Swift Combatant (Ex): At 1st level, a dreadnought gains the ability make 1/4 (rounded down, minimum 1) the attacks allowed as a full attack with a standard action.

This is a very innovative ability that would help a generic combatant a lot. If you take my advice and reduce the total number of attacks, allow this guy to make half as many attacks instead of 1/4.

Okay, that's it. I got through this with a straight face and I made suggestions that would probably give this class a bit of balance (if you want it :smalltongue:).
Remember, boys and girls, balancing a class against the wizard does not give you a balanced class. Balancing a class against the lightning warrior makes the apocalypse come 1 week sooner. :smallwink:

gooddragon1
2010-03-21, 08:37 PM
I will try to review this seriously, with a straight face, and comparing it with the general balance of the entire game. I do not expect the class to survive this process. :smalltongue:
To reiterate, it is not my intention to flame or troll but rather to give a full and honest review of this class with suggestions on how to make it more balanced for general play.



Hehehe...



Okay, I am already seeing a bit of a contradiction. Doesn't belonging to any alignment kind of go against being Rathe Darkharrow? Even if you're giving Rathe the most flexible morality ever, the alignment should read "As Rathe Darkharrow".
The second problem is requiring the character to be Rathe Darkharrow. As you say, this is rather restrictive. In fact, it is currently so restrictive that nobody can ever play it. No, not even you.
In DnD, everything relies on very precise definitions of terms. You don't require that a character be named Rathe Darkharrow or use a build specific to Rathe Darkharrow (both of which could be very precisely mimicked and used by anybody). Instead, you require that the character be Rathe Darkharrow, a description that lacks definition and that no character can thereby qualify for.
Even you, with your creative license and full mental idea of who Rathe Darkharrow is, can't meet a prerequisite that has absolutely no meaning in game terms. Give a precise definition of being Rathe Darkharrow or not even you can legally use it. :smallamused:
In short, you either provide a definition that allows everyone to use it or you don't and allow nobody to use it. This is not a balancing feature in any sense of the word.



This ability should be reworded due to multiple meanings of the word "proficiency". Although it typically refers to the ability to use a weapon/armor without penalty, certain players could stretch the term to mean having skill with something. Any player could get skill focus, weapon focus, or any number of bonus feats by spending 1 minute and giving a twisted description of how each feat makes them more proficient at a certain task.



No. This is really not balanced. In addition to whatever is to come, this guy is the undisputed master of skills, perhaps tied only with the changeling rogue substitution levels (does 2 extra skill points equal access to all skills?), which only gets its benefits for a total of 3 levels.
Give this guy a significantly reduced skill list and reduce the skill points to 6 + Int modifier (preferably 4 + Int modifier). If this guy is supposed to be a warrior, making him stomp on the feet of the skill monkey breaks the class, making this guy take up 2 roles in the party rather than 1.
The factotum is a good example of a skill monkey that can participate in combat without being broken or stealing someone else's job.





Okay, this is a bit overpowered. Going against what has been said, having BAB progress into epic levels does not overpower the game (although it unfortunately overshadows other martial classes).

Also, I see absolutely no point in continuing saving throw progression as the epic bonus would increase your saves at the same exact rate.

The attacks, however, are more troublesome. Even though the monk is generally considered underpowered, the amount of attacks that this guy has simply laughs at it. In fact, this amount of attacks simply insults all other martial classes in existance and the thought of making about 3 attacks per second at level 20 is just something that I can't even picture in my head.

Furthermore, the ideal of being a dreadnought, traditionally thought of as a very tough warrior who wades through battle and slaughters foes... well, it just doesn't seem too indicative of attacks that move faster than the naked eye can track.

The lack of decreasing BAB for iterative attacks is a less troublesome thing. Races of War (by Frank and K) discussed how iterative attacks are kind of troublesome. As you make no reference to this material, however, it is assumed that you mean for this class to be balanced using basic rules.

As this guy never really gets a fighting style of his own, I'd simply make it so that you gain one attack at first level (which makes sense even if you choose to stay with the 1 attack/level scheme you have going on) and gain another attack per 3 points of BAB (eventually ending up with 7 attacks at level 18).
Although it would be pretty darn powerful (godly in gestalt) and take the place of a few other martial classes, it wouldn't be anything that a properly optomized barbarian, warblade, or even rogue couldn't outdo.



You keep saying that this class is a beefed up fighter but this is the only thing that possibly suggests that. It's a pretty big thing, mind you, but the good saves, awesome skills, better HD, better attack progression, and other abilities really make this class look nothing like a fighter any more and look more like an accumulation of the best bits of every noncaster class stuck together in a wierd, overpowered accumulation.
I'd personally recommend reducing the feats to levels 1 and all even levels like the generalist warrior from unearthed arcana. That they don't need to be bonus fighter feats makes this ability very powerful and it frankly doesn't seem to meed so many of them.
Even if you choose not to change it, here is a potential rewording that simplifies things a bit.

Bonus Feats: At each class level, a dreadnought gets a bonus feat. A dreadnought must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat.



This ability makes this class unspeakably good for a 1 level dip. Also, it would be a bit broken for a monk to take a level in this to gain the full benefits of their class features while wearing full-plate and carrying a tower shield. Donning and removing armor that fast isn't overpowered but it is once again very difficult to imagine.
Speaking seriously, if this was intended to be a Mary Sue character, it should be very important to be able to picture every second of what Ruthe Darkharrow is doing (in all of his glorious awesomeness). When you put in an ability like this which is gratuitous to the point of being un-imaginable, you kind of defeat the purpose of even having that character in the first place.

I'd personally move this ability to level 2 so that the class isn't too front-loaded and consider removing that last line.

Spell Resistance (Ex): At 1st level, a dreadnought gains spell resistance equal to his dreadnought level + his Charisma bonus (if any) + 20. In order to affect the dreadnought with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the dreadnought’s spell resistance.

There are very few ways to get SR at level 1 and most of them have level adjustment. As such, this ability is obviously overpowered. A 1st level dreadnought with 20 charisma has SR 26, more than any 1st level wizard can accomplish without first using true casting (from complete mage).

Making a class balanced against an optimized build of an unbalanced class (the wizard) does not give you good balance over all. If you must have the SR, reduce it to 5 + level + Cha mod. At levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20, improve it by 1 point. That would be very powerful but maintain some modicum of balance.

On another note, it is interesting how you are giving this class a bit of MAD by stressing the importance of otherwise unneeded Charisma.



You should be more specific about what rolls you do not add to so that we are not left to wonder. As stated earlier, DnD relies on specific rules.
Also, you may not want to add to d% rolls as (for example) some DMs have you hit concealed foes if you roll low instead of high.

Does the last line mean that antimagic zones don't work? In that case, why not make this an extraordinary ability? Nothing that it does seems supernatural.

As for achieving balance, I would break this up over many levels, granting the bonus to damage rolls at level 1, attack rolls at level 5, skill checks at level 9, saving throws at level 13, and saving throws at level 17. No need to grant AC as you have full armor anyways.



This is a very innovative ability that would help a generic combatant a lot. If you take my advice and reduce the total number of attacks, allow this guy to make half as many attacks instead of 1/4.

Okay, that's it. I got through this with a straight face and I made suggestions that would probably give this class a bit of balance (if you want it :smalltongue:).
Remember, boys and girls, balancing a class against the wizard does not give you a balanced class. Balancing a class against the lightning warrior makes the apocalypse come 1 week sooner. :smallwink:

*picture of a nerd hunched over a computer keyboard drooling from the mouth and cackling maniacally*

I'm not the kind of person who could make a class for general play because I've only read the core 3 and unearthed arcana (plus whats on the SRD). I made this for this guy: Rathe Darkharrow (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=25301). Rathe has actually gone through (I think) at least 30 iterations of builds (started with regeneration and then moved onto something of what a ghost does to come back...). Now as for balance, note the (Broken) thing in the title :).

The alignment thing is if I choose to have Rathe change alignment. The character being played must be Rathe Darkharrow. I suppose a hyperlink in the name could work to alleviate some problems...

I agree on removal of the examination bit since Rathe can already get the feats necessary in his current incarnation.

Skills is just bookkeeping. It's to make the bookkeeping easier.

Attacks is also bookkeeping but in keeping with the fact that this guy has insane ability scores. This class while mainly martial draws upon psionic flavor to make what it does possible. So therefore using psionics to remove friction in a way that cannot be negated by an antimagic field. Saves also bookkeeping.

Bonus feats can be reworded as you said, but it's just nice to see something in every special box.

All abilities at level 1 because Rathe is currently level 1.

Being specific can be done, supernatural because hypercognition is a psionic power and because the origin of these bonuses is not natural (foresight, unnaturally gained knowledge, etc.)

Swift combatant is a thingy I had on a previous incarnation and put in here for fun.

Charisma is chosen because all other attributes change too many things in response to their changes. Also chosen to be different.

Implementing necessary changes soon. Done.

I may choose to make an attempt at following your balancing advice in the future... but I'm more of a psionics buff myself and I'm incredibly lazy a lot of the time.

absolmorph
2010-03-22, 12:40 AM
I think it might be able to take on a wizard.

After some thought, I came to the conclusion that, in order to bring this up to an appropriate power level, you should give him 12+Int skill points rather than 8+Int.

Realms of Chaos
2010-03-22, 02:56 AM
Yeah, of course I saw the (broken) in the title. I was just poking some fun at you. :smalltongue:

And now for a more realistic review of your intended goals, making a mary sue class in DnD! Let's take another look at the class...

The big problem that I see is that it is meant to be doing everything at level 1. I understand that this class and your homebrewed race are supposed to be overpowered for the purpose of your character.
The thing is, putting all of that at level 1 with no LA does not make your character more impressive. Although you'd render your allies utterly irrelevant, it would be nearly impossible to progress in a logical way. When I see Mr. Darkharrow, I see a being who should be toppling titans, slaying gods, and killing just about everyone else fundamental to the power balance of the multiverse.
Let's say that your character, the most recent incarnation of Rathe, kills Kord for a good laugh (which is more than possible). While that's all fun and good, YOU GET NO XP!!!!
In DnD, killing something too weak or too strong for your level results in not gaining any XP at all. In short, even though Rathe should be fighting godlings and neutronium golems, he will never ever ever reach level 2 in this way. You'll have to start any campaign with him slaughtering kobolds or commoners. Considering his strength, that just seems somehow wrong.

It seems that there are two possible ways to interpret what you were going for with this class:
1. You wanted to make a guy who could kill titans and such right off of the bat. As I've explained above, this results in a strange scenario where you can only advance in power by killing creatures you have no business fighting and killing creatures that seem more challenging (and, indeed, more heroic) to face does not help you.
If this is the true explaination, consider instead starting your character at a level higher than 1. Not all campaigns start at level 1 and some start at very high epic levels. Generally speaking, people who want to play (for example) Merlin would make a level 16 wizard and jump into play with that rather than making a class that let's them be Merlin at level 1, breaking the game in multiple sense of the word as explained above.
2. You wanted to make a story with no real chance for failure. You don't have a clue who Rathe is, what he does, or what he will do but you want him to be able to succeed at his every endeavor. Perhaps this is to make a traditional "flawless" hero or perhaps it's just an ego trip of sorts (though I've statted up a level 21,000+ character for the same reason so I'm not one to talk. :smallredface:).
In that case, the question must still be asked why you bothered to homebrew the race and class in the first place when perfectly good material is out there that would let you do the same thing. For a small example of this, look at the paragon template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm). Although not as powerful as your homebrewed race, this template probably makes for a wonderful Mary Sue that has little chance at failing at anything. If that's not enough, consider just making him a greater deity (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineRanksPowers.htm) Bonuses to everything, a bunch of divine salient abilities, greater speed, free actions, and automatic 20s on all rolls. You can reflavor the abilities as being hypercognition and cut out those that you don't want if you didn't picture Rathe as a god.

just my 2 cp.

Rithaniel
2010-03-22, 03:24 AM
I see your ante, and raise you by Akroma (http://toyaju.net/shop3/p_image/TT/akromaangelofwrath.jpg), Akroma (http://www.magickingdom.it/public/catalog/images/pc/94.jpg), Goku (http://www.androids.us/wp-content/images/goku1.jpg), Superman (http://theconversational.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/superman.jpg), Goku and Superman Fighting (http://www.androids.us/wp-content/images/goku-vs-superman.jpg), Chuck Norris (http://msmills.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/chuck_norris.jpg), the Hulk (http://dailypop.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/the-hulk.jpg), Oprah Winfrey (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1YsGUDAnHoc/SPwG8jnXXfI/AAAAAAAABSc/zr7dWaMm42I/s400/oprah_winfrey_story.jpg), and the Suu (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=49303).

Deca
2010-03-22, 06:11 AM
While this is horribly broken for a player (as intended), this could totally work as a class for a BBEG that the whole party has to take on.

gooddragon1
2010-03-22, 11:31 AM
Yeah, of course I saw the (broken) in the title. I was just poking some fun at you. :smalltongue:

And now for a more realistic review of your intended goals, making a mary sue class in DnD! Let's take another look at the class...

The big problem that I see is that it is meant to be doing everything at level 1. I understand that this class and your homebrewed race are supposed to be overpowered for the purpose of your character.
The thing is, putting all of that at level 1 with no LA does not make your character more impressive. Although you'd render your allies utterly irrelevant, it would be nearly impossible to progress in a logical way. When I see Mr. Darkharrow, I see a being who should be toppling titans, slaying gods, and killing just about everyone else fundamental to the power balance of the multiverse.
Let's say that your character, the most recent incarnation of Rathe, kills Kord for a good laugh (which is more than possible). While that's all fun and good, YOU GET NO XP!!!!
In DnD, killing something too weak or too strong for your level results in not gaining any XP at all. In short, even though Rathe should be fighting godlings and neutronium golems, he will never ever ever reach level 2 in this way. You'll have to start any campaign with him slaughtering kobolds or commoners. Considering his strength, that just seems somehow wrong.

It seems that there are two possible ways to interpret what you were going for with this class:
1. You wanted to make a guy who could kill titans and such right off of the bat. As I've explained above, this results in a strange scenario where you can only advance in power by killing creatures you have no business fighting and killing creatures that seem more challenging (and, indeed, more heroic) to face does not help you.
If this is the true explaination, consider instead starting your character at a level higher than 1. Not all campaigns start at level 1 and some start at very high epic levels. Generally speaking, people who want to play (for example) Merlin would make a level 16 wizard and jump into play with that rather than making a class that let's them be Merlin at level 1, breaking the game in multiple sense of the word as explained above.
2. You wanted to make a story with no real chance for failure. You don't have a clue who Rathe is, what he does, or what he will do but you want him to be able to succeed at his every endeavor. Perhaps this is to make a traditional "flawless" hero or perhaps it's just an ego trip of sorts (though I've statted up a level 21,000+ character for the same reason so I'm not one to talk. :smallredface:).
In that case, the question must still be asked why you bothered to homebrew the race and class in the first place when perfectly good material is out there that would let you do the same thing. For a small example of this, look at the paragon template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm). Although not as powerful as your homebrewed race, this template probably makes for a wonderful Mary Sue that has little chance at failing at anything. If that's not enough, consider just making him a greater deity (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineRanksPowers.htm) Bonuses to everything, a bunch of divine salient abilities, greater speed, free actions, and automatic 20s on all rolls. You can reflavor the abilities as being hypercognition and cut out those that you don't want if you didn't picture Rathe as a god.

just my 2 cp.

Actually...



Special Qualities (Ex)

If Rathe would gain no XP or less than 1 xp from an encounter (e.g. due to being too high or too low in level) he instead gains 1 xp. Rathe may also choose to gain an amount of XP equal to the damage he takes whenever he takes damage. Rathe gains maximum hit points per HD. Rathe may make a DC 10 Constitution check as a standard action to permanently increase any or all of his ability scores by 1 or gain a bonus feat (he must meet the prerequisites for this feat). Rathe's multiclassing works by gaining all the abilities of the class he would multiclass into at the character level (treated thereafter as his levels in that class as well) he is currently at and then resetting his XP to just enough to be at the character level he was before he leveled up (he cannot multiclass into the same class twice except to gain benefits of variants of choices within that class and he only gains those benefits when doing so). Rolls on a d20 Rathe makes are treated as having a natural result of 1 higher than the rolled number and Rolls on a d20 made against Rathe are treated as having a natural result of 1 lower than the rolled number. Abilities that would duplicate Rathe's form do not duplicate his abilities that are not gained from class levels (if such a duplication ability could even duplicate abilities from class levels) or as normal racial abilities and Rathe's abilities cannot otherwise be duplicated except by his fissioned duplicate.

(The second 2 parts indicate an ability to scale infinitely but not a requirement to do so)

Also... 21k+ character? The bookkeeping must have been insane...

This character is meant to be imported into The Town, if it ever really gets off the ground. I also use it for daydreaming purposes. Example: The hobgoblin army is laying siege to Azure City and then Rathe appears at the gate... and it goes from there :)

Also, putting too many templates is just too much of a hassle to keep track of so I kept it simple (more or less).

By the way, the homebrew race actually is fairly playable from what I understand (I made it too though): Sindran (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Sindran_%283.5e_Race%29).

@Rithaniel: Forgot Bruce Lee. How could you forget him?

@Deca: I had been thinking something similar, except I'd still probably think of balancing the class first.

Realms of Chaos
2010-03-23, 07:46 AM
Book keeping was insane, literally took over a month to stat up in my spare time. :smalltongue:

Edit: The rest of this post comes across far more harsh than I was intending it to. I'm not trying to flame or troll you, just to give my honest critique of this class given my new knowledge.
...
I'm sorry.[/preemptive apology]

Anyhow, now that I see this interesting bit of text you pointed out, I view Rathe in an entirely new light.

Rathe Darkharrow is not Broken.

Rathe is just... pointless.

Being Rathe doesn't break the game in any specific way. What being Rathe does do is prevent a game from even existing in the first place.

Rathe has absolutely no reason to quest or do anything... ever. Even just gaining infinite ability scores and feats, the game suddenly stops. I've seen feats that let characters breathe underwater, fly, gain more speed (can be taken multiple times), reroll dice (can be taken multiple times), gain hit points (can be taken multiple times), gain unpassable Damage Reduction (can be taken multiple times), see invisibility, etc.
Rathe never even needs to level up to effectively become nigh-unbeatable, becoming a level 1 character who can do pretty much anything.

Of course, there are some reasons why Rathe would want to gain levels. Access to real class features, spells, and epic feats would be these reasons in a nutshell. Most characters are driven towards a life of adventure in part to become stronger.
Rathe... doesn't need this either. Rathe levels up through masochism (either directly or by throwing himself into black holes). Rathe can (and has no reason not to) gain 1,000 levels in all classes and gain all PrCs or even more.

In fact, I see no rationale for Rathe to do anything else. Even in the offhand chance that a being was about to bring about the apocalypse, Rathe's plans wouldn't change at all. Rathe would simply masochism himself into a new PrC that could let him deal with the problem from a distance. This is also how Rathe would gain wealth, if he wanted wealth for some reason.
Doing anything other than raising stats, adding feats, gaining xp through masochism, and keeping a few spells active on himself would be a complete and utter waste of Rathe's time.

I've seen some pretty insane stuff on these boards and back on the wizards boards. I've seen the rise of Pun-Pun and Mortiverse (and have seen several threads with them fighting each other). They were pretty funny abuses of rules (Mortiverse used a third-party source but even so) but they were amusing because such loopholes and possibilities already existed.

I also remember seeing the lightning warrior. Though it was homebrewed, it was hopelessly overpowered much like this. That class gained popularity because its creator insisted time and time again that it wasn't overpowered because it couldn't specialize its spellcasting... and didn't get a familiar :smalltongue:. Even though everyone seemed to hate it at the time, it became kind of a in-joke in the homebrew community and I solute the lightning warrior.

This... this is... nothing :smalleek:. Rathe doesn't make a good PC, NPC, DMPC, or random battle. Rathe isn't intriguing at a mechanical level as it seems to be making up rules as it goes along. Rathe isn't funny because it wasn't presented as a joke.
Rathe isn't a good literary tool or unflawed hero as any attempt to make him do anything would be akin to... to... to giving Lex Luthor five metric tons of kryptonite and expecting him to fight hand-to-hand with superman... five hundred miles from said kryptonite. That's the only metaphor that I can think of. Taking actions is a simply crippling and altogether uneccessary handicap for Rathe.
Rathe isn't even a good Mary Sue as there isn't any personality associated with him, half of the actions he takes are very hard (or impossible) to imagine, and it is impossible to role-play his mental stats appropriately.

I'm honestly at a loss for how adding Rathe to a campaign at any angle and for any reason could add something to a campaign other than a fancy equivalent of "rocks fall, everybody dies".

I'm really sorry that I'm coming across as this harsh (I really am:smallfrown:) but... I no longer see a reason for Rathe's existance.
Please alter Rathe so that he has a reason to do something, so that there is a point in including him in a campaign, so that playing Rathe can be fun while making sense.

Otherwise... I fear that Darkharrow is a stat block... representing nothing. :smallfrown:

Edit: A couple other points.
Point 1: I now see that this guy is basically what you daydream. I now understand why this guy exists and trust me when I say that I can relate. :smallredface:
Point 2: It seems kind of off that you want to keep this character as simple as possible. The thing is that gaining true omnipotence (which Rathe can do handily), you end up needing a laundry list of immunities and abilities long enough to fill a small novel.
Point 3: I still don't see why you can't just call this guy's level 1,000,000 or something. You easily derive the HP, BAB, number of attacks, and saving throws without a huge ton of math, you can make all feats that you don't want to use toughness, and it seems altogether more logical.
Making this guy level 1 or reducing the numbers this guy works with probably doesn't make the battles more gritty or realistic to imagine so why not just go crazy and pump up the level while leaving the effects to have the same battles while making more sense in general.
Point 4: Why does this class get bonus feats when it is intended for the sole use of a being who can gain unlimited feats already?

gooddragon1
2010-03-23, 10:48 AM
Book keeping was insane, literally took over a month to stat up in my spare time. :smalltongue:

Edit: The rest of this post comes across far more harsh than I was intending it to. I'm not trying to flame or troll you, just to give my honest critique of this class given my new knowledge.
...
I'm sorry.[/preemptive apology]

Anyhow, now that I see this interesting bit of text you pointed out, I view Rathe in an entirely new light.

Rathe Darkharrow is not Broken.

Rathe is just... pointless.

Being Rathe doesn't break the game in any specific way. What being Rathe does do is prevent a game from even existing in the first place.

Rathe has absolutely no reason to quest or do anything... ever. Even just gaining infinite ability scores and feats, the game suddenly stops. I've seen feats that let characters breathe underwater, fly, gain more speed (can be taken multiple times), reroll dice (can be taken multiple times), gain hit points (can be taken multiple times), gain unpassable Damage Reduction (can be taken multiple times), see invisibility, etc.
Rathe never even needs to level up to effectively become nigh-unbeatable, becoming a level 1 character who can do pretty much anything.

Of course, there are some reasons why Rathe would want to gain levels. Access to real class features, spells, and epic feats would be these reasons in a nutshell. Most characters are driven towards a life of adventure in part to become stronger.
Rathe... doesn't need this either. Rathe levels up through masochism (either directly or by throwing himself into black holes). Rathe can (and has no reason not to) gain 1,000 levels in all classes and gain all PrCs or even more.

In fact, I see no rationale for Rathe to do anything else. Even in the offhand chance that a being was about to bring about the apocalypse, Rathe's plans wouldn't change at all. Rathe would simply masochism himself into a new PrC that could let him deal with the problem from a distance. This is also how Rathe would gain wealth, if he wanted wealth for some reason.
Doing anything other than raising stats, adding feats, gaining xp through masochism, and keeping a few spells active on himself would be a complete and utter waste of Rathe's time.

I've seen some pretty insane stuff on these boards and back on the wizards boards. I've seen the rise of Pun-Pun and Mortiverse (and have seen several threads with them fighting each other). They were pretty funny abuses of rules (Mortiverse used a third-party source but even so) but they were amusing because such loopholes and possibilities already existed.

I also remember seeing the lightning warrior. Though it was homebrewed, it was hopelessly overpowered much like this. That class gained popularity because its creator insisted time and time again that it wasn't overpowered because it couldn't specialize its spellcasting... and didn't get a familiar :smalltongue:. Even though everyone seemed to hate it at the time, it became kind of a in-joke in the homebrew community and I solute the lightning warrior.

This... this is... nothing :smalleek:. Rathe doesn't make a good PC, NPC, DMPC, or random battle. Rathe isn't intriguing at a mechanical level as it seems to be making up rules as it goes along. Rathe isn't funny because it wasn't presented as a joke.
Rathe isn't a good literary tool or unflawed hero as any attempt to make him do anything would be akin to... to... to giving Lex Luthor five metric tons of kryptonite and expecting him to fight hand-to-hand with superman... five hundred miles from said kryptonite. That's the only metaphor that I can think of. Taking actions is a simply crippling and altogether uneccessary handicap for Rathe.
Rathe isn't even a good Mary Sue as there isn't any personality associated with him, half of the actions he takes are very hard (or impossible) to imagine, and it is impossible to role-play his mental stats appropriately.

I'm honestly at a loss for how adding Rathe to a campaign at any angle and for any reason could add something to a campaign other than a fancy equivalent of "rocks fall, everybody dies".

I'm really sorry that I'm coming across as this harsh (I really am:smallfrown:) but... I no longer see a reason for Rathe's existance.
Please alter Rathe so that he has a reason to do something, so that there is a point in including him in a campaign, so that playing Rathe can be fun while making sense.

Otherwise... I fear that Darkharrow is a stat block... representing nothing. :smallfrown:

Edit: A couple other points.
Point 1: I now see that this guy is basically what you daydream. I now understand why this guy exists and trust me when I say that I can relate. :smallredface:
Point 2: It seems kind of off that you want to keep this character as simple as possible. The thing is that gaining true omnipotence (which Rathe can do handily), you end up needing a laundry list of immunities and abilities long enough to fill a small novel.
Point 3: I still don't see why you can't just call this guy's level 1,000,000 or something. You easily derive the HP, BAB, number of attacks, and saving throws without a huge ton of math, you can make all feats that you don't want to use toughness, and it seems altogether more logical.
Making this guy level 1 or reducing the numbers this guy works with probably doesn't make the battles more gritty or realistic to imagine so why not just go crazy and pump up the level while leaving the effects to have the same battles while making more sense in general.
Point 4: Why does this class get bonus feats when it is intended for the sole use of a being who can gain unlimited feats already?

Skipping directly to the edits...
1> Also, there is a place... a place where 'normal powerful' is not good enough to even be a beggar... The Town (http://enupnion.myfastforum.org/forum1.php). As long as I didn't go out of my way to pick fights I would technically not be godmodding there.
2>This character has the potential for infinite power but not the requirement to do so. And through a broad use of what effects fall under that could potentially not be good... I already provide those immunities in reconstruction (su) in various ways. Interestingly, the XP through damage accumulator is actually a safeguard against someone spawn killing him if it were somehow possible.
3>There's again, a game called DotA (http://www.playdota.com/) (defense of the ancients). You start at level 1 and max out at level 25. I just like the idea of starting at the beginning in my daydreams and progress from there. Also, he could go to lvl 1M quickly (and painlessly (see reconstruction)).
4>It looks nicer.

A better description: Rathe is like using the console in morrowind and maxing your stats by typing...
player->setstrength 200
player->setagility 200
player->setendurance 200
player->setwillpower 200
player->set...
...

Why would you have any reason to play the game? Because you can still kill enemies for fun by shooting at them with arrows. Not as much fun without graphical support, but still interesting to for example: make a random encounter with a few dragons and roll to see what random loot they provide. Then start your own hoard with what you kill. Import this to say... the town. So there you go.

EDIT: After reading the suu :smallsmile: ...


I Win (Su): When the Suu attains 20th level his Mentor, if he has miraculously survived this long, will be immediately and horribly murdered by the Nemesis. This unlocks the Suu's ultimate power: I Win. To use this power, the Suu must successfully strike his Nemesis in melee with his Speshul Weapon, while using one or more of his Speshul Powarz. When this occurs, the Nemesis dies in suitably dramatic and final fashion, and the Suu wins. He immediately marries his True Luv, is elected King of the World by popular decree, becomes fabulously wealthy, loses his Angsty Background, lives for 1,000 years, and brings peace and happiness to all the world for ever and ever.

Rathe dies (well just for fun really, he's immune to death effects of that sort...)... 12 seconds later (2 rounds) he comes right back. Rathe gains manifester levels and manifests crystallize (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/crystallize.htm) on the Suu... the Suu "lives for 1,000 years" and somehow does the rest too...