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mummy162
2010-03-18, 11:37 AM
Right now my list includes:

Dragon Shaman
Monk
Soulknife
Psychic Warrior

I think all of these classes would be balanced with a full BAB; they should have had them in the first place, and these classes are fairly low tier. Any other classes that could be easily fixed by houseruling up their BAB?

Gnaritas
2010-03-18, 11:39 AM
I never really played a Soulknife or Dragon Shaman. But a Psychic Warrior does not need fixing in my opinion and a Monk is not fixed just with full BAB.

Besides, why restrict yourself to fixing classes with a BAB progression. I gave a Monk divine spellcasting (cleric spell list, wisdom as stat, Bard spellprogression) to fix it.

Kaiyanwang
2010-03-18, 11:39 AM
Psywarrior is fine as is IMO. 6th level powers are very good.

Maybe Marshal should have full BAB..

arguskos
2010-03-18, 11:42 AM
I never really played a Soulknife or Dragon Shaman. But a Psychic Warrior does not need fixing in my opinion and a Monk is not fixed just with full BAB.
Soulknife needs to GO AWAY. Dragon Shaman/Monk need more fixes than just full BAB, but it's a start. PsyWar doesn't need a damn thing.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-18, 11:42 AM
Psywarrior is fine as is IMO.

Maybe Marshal should have full BAB..

PsiWar is actually debated. Some feel it is balanced with it's current BAB, others feel it could use Full BAB.


Some of us, however, know that BAB means nothing when you know what you are doing with your build. The Incarnate taught me this.



Marshal needs far more than Full BAB to be more than a level long though. Like actual class features or something.

AmberVael
2010-03-18, 11:47 AM
Marshal needs far more than Full BAB to be more than a level long though. Like actual class features or something.

Heresy! Classes don't need class features- if you give them too many class features, they'll end up overpowered!

Like the monk! :smallamused:

arguskos
2010-03-18, 11:48 AM
Heresy! Classes don't need class features- if you give them too many class features, they'll end up overpowered!

Like the monk! :smallamused:
Epic win is epically won. I approve.

Also, the Warmage could use full BAB, just to have a bone.

mummy162
2010-03-18, 11:49 AM
Heresy! Classes don't need class features- if you give them too many class features, they'll end up overpowered!

Like the monk! :smallamused:

And if you don't give them enough features, they end up underpowered.

Like the wizard! :smallbiggrin:

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-18, 11:49 AM
Heresy! Classes don't need class features- if you give them too many class features, they'll end up overpowered!

Like the monk! :smallamused:

If I weren't using IE, I'd post something to make a wity retort.

If I weren't posting this on the GiantITP forums, I'd post something completely different from the above that would be completely appropriate (if rude).


But both of the above are true, so I'm not going to.

Flickerdart
2010-03-18, 11:50 AM
Epic win is epically won. I approve.

Also, the Warmage could use full BAB, just to have a bone.
By that logic, Truenamer deserves double BAB, maybe even triple. :smallbiggrin:

Godskook
2010-03-18, 11:52 AM
Heresy! Classes don't need class features- if you give them too many class features, they'll end up overpowered!

Like the monk! :smallamused:

I agree. Some class remain balanced and interesting without noticeable class features at all after L1, like Sorcerer and Wizard. Let's make all classes like that!

arguskos
2010-03-18, 11:52 AM
By that logic, Truenamer deserves double BAB, maybe even triple. :smallbiggrin:
I approve of this post too. This thread is rapidly evolving into some serious win.

Mongoose87
2010-03-18, 11:55 AM
If Soulknife had full BaB, got bonus feats and its weapon advanced to a point and at a rate where it was actually an advantage, not a burden, well... it would at least be better than the fighter.

Choco
2010-03-18, 11:56 AM
Well if we include prestige classes, it always struck me as odd that the Warforged Juggernaut didn't have full BAB, what with being a pure melee class and all.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-18, 11:57 AM
If Soulknife had full BaB, got bonus feats and its weapon advanced to a point and at a rate where it was actually an advantage, not a burden, well... it would at least be better than the fighter.

That's like saying Toast is better than Wheat Bread because Toast is Brown. It doesn't take much to be better than the Fighter, after all.


Well if we include prestige classes, it always struck me as odd that the Warforged Juggernaut didn't have full BAB, what with being a pure melee class and all.

It makes sense when you realize that they are literally becoming more of a Construct. Its like taking levels in Racial Hit Dice, not a PrC.

What really bugs me is why they didn't apply the same logic to the Totemist, considering they had all ready set a precedent before-hand (Wildshape Ranger).

arguskos
2010-03-18, 11:58 AM
That's like saying Toast is better than Wheat Bread because Toast is Brown.
Dude, I am quoting and sigging this, I can't not. I hope you don't mind.

Merk
2010-03-18, 11:58 AM
Full BAB itself isn't that great. Many low-tier classes have full BAB and are still not great: CW Samurai, Swashbuckler, Warrior, Paladin, etc.

I'd give the monk full BAB, but it needs more and different ideas. Psychic Warrior, I think is fine. Soulknife should just be a psywar ACF. I have no idea about dragon shamans.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-18, 11:59 AM
Dude, I am quoting and sigging this, I can't not. I hope you don't mind.

You would make the 5th person to sig something I've said. Go right ahead!

PinkysBrain
2010-03-18, 12:00 PM
Psychic Warrior
That's what offensive precognition is for.

Mongoose87
2010-03-18, 12:02 PM
That's like saying Toast is better than Wheat Bread because Toast is Brown. It doesn't take much to be better than the Fighter, after all.


Well, y'know, melee can't have nice things and all.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-18, 12:03 PM
That's what offensive precognition is for.

Some of us think that it is in poor taste to waste one of your 20 powers known on a power like this. It offends them.

I like to remind them that the entire point of that power is to be offensive. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dejaVu.htm)

imperialspectre
2010-03-18, 12:42 PM
Bad pun is bad. :smalltongue:

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-18, 12:47 PM
Psychic Warrior does NOT need full BAB. It is already tier 3, and quite powerful.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-18, 12:49 PM
Bad pun is bad. :smalltongue:

It actually happened IC though:

Setup: 5th level PsiWar challenges a 5th level Telepath for party leadership.

Round 1: PsiWar wins Init, uses Precog (Offensive) because the Telepath has a high AC for his level (Inertial Armor, high Dex, Law Devotion). Telepath uses DV to force him to repeat his actions, and Overchannels it. PsiWar fails save.

Rounds 2+: Cue Crossbow sniping from Telepath, and PsiWar is on lockdown due to poor rolls.

Cue me reminding the PsiWar's player that Precog is supposed to be an offensive buff. He starts talking smack IC to make up for the lack of a Standard action, and attacks the Telepath's Ego.


We bust out laughing at the latter pun, and tell the Telepath's player to roll up an Egoist so we can resolve the attacks.

Starbuck_II
2010-03-18, 12:51 PM
Divine Mind and Marshall: Full BAB!

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-18, 01:00 PM
dragon shaman is fine without the full BAB.

It needs other boosters, specificaly 4+ int skills and a way to get double aura without a feat.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-18, 01:06 PM
dragon shaman is fine without the full BAB.

It needs other boosters, specificaly 4+ int skills and a way to get double aura without a feat.

While I agree it should not have full BaB, it still really sucks. Needs more than double aura and +4 skills

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-18, 01:08 PM
While I agree it should not have full BaB, it still really sucks. Needs more than double aura and +4 skills

I don't know...

To compare it to teir 1 yes. but to put it at a respectable tier 3 i think it would be fine.

Godskook
2010-03-18, 01:14 PM
Wait! Isn't Dragon Shaman already Tier 3? Or at least high tier 4?

Emmerask
2010-03-18, 01:15 PM
Right now my list includes:

Dragon Shaman
Monk
Soulknife
Psychic Warrior

I think all of these classes would be balanced with a full BAB; they should have had them in the first place, and these classes are fairly low tier. Any other classes that could be easily fixed by houseruling up their BAB?

What would be the reason for the fighter to even exist as a class if psywarrior gets everything he does and has psi powers to boot?

psywarrior is pretty balanced and with all the powers he doesn´t need full bab at all precog offensive if you have trouble hitting something and the ubercharge build with lions charge is powerful enough to kill most monsters anyway :smalltongue:


Furthermore, no they would not be balanced with full bab. Full bab is during most levels nothing more then a slight bonus. If you check the ac values of most enemies / level vs tohit, medium bab classes have little trouble hitting them if they are in a competent group that uses buffs :smallwink:

Even a monk using flurry of misses will have a 50/50 chance to hit his lowest attack most of the time against even crd enemies (if buffed of course).

Giving every single one of those med bab low tier classes access to some form of "magic" (psi, tob, arcane) that would actually go along way in order to fix them and becoming tier 3 classes.
For example give monks psi progression like the psiwarrior and their psilist perhaps with some bonuses from wilder list and they will be a pretty good class.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-18, 01:15 PM
Wait! Isn't Dragon Shaman already Tier 3? Or at least high tier 4?

Low Tier 4. It does nothing well, and a little of everything. Really, it's worse than the Warlock, which is Tier 4 flat-out.


What would be the reason for the fighter to even exist as a class if psywarrior gets everything he does and has psi powers to boot?

To show that the Devs had no clue what balance was when they were designing 3.X prior to the XPH?

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-18, 01:17 PM
Wait! Isn't Dragon Shaman already Tier 3? Or at least high tier 4?

its actualy not on there? mabye i was looking at an old one

Teir (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-18, 01:18 PM
its actualy not on there? mabye i was looking at an old one

Teir (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)

That is the older one, but the newest one still doesn't list it.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-18, 01:19 PM
That is the older one, but the newest one still doesn't list it.

that stinks...


Its one of my favorite classes.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-18, 01:22 PM
that stinks...


Its one of my favorite classes.

The reason it isn't listed is because it's abilities are so mediocre that the class isn't that attractive. You get almost the exact same effect from a Dragonfire Adept with the Dragonic Aura feat.


Hell, the Dragon Shaman didn't even warrant a handbook. The DFA is almost strictly superior.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-18, 01:25 PM
The reason it isn't listed is because it's abilities are so mediocre that the class isn't that attractive. You get almost the exact same effect from a Dragonfire Adept with the Dragonic Aura feat.


Hell, the Dragon Shaman didn't even warrant a handbook. The DFA is almost strictly superior.

um theres a dragon shaman handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19865414/The_Dragon_Shaman_Handbook) out there not on BG.

And dragon shamans and DFAs have totaly different feels to them.

though i agree there abilities are medocre for alot of the dragons some of them arn't terrible. and they can apply meta breaths right off the bat. and arn't as squishy as DFA's

Draz74
2010-03-18, 01:34 PM
and arn't as squishy as DFA's

Hah.

You're right, Dragon Shamans, despite being overall weak (low Tier 4, I agree), do have some advantages in certain areas over Dragonfire Adepts.

Squishiness isn't really one of them.

Since DFA is a SAD-Constitution class, DFAs tend to end up with more Hit Points than anyone else, tied with Totemists.

The classes with bigger Hit Dice? They tend not to worry so much about boosting their CON; they're too busy boosting their STR (and sometimes other stats, like CHA for the Knight). Knight, Warblade ... the only possible exception is the Barbarian, who does at least have some CON-based class features. (And of course the Crusader wins if we're talking overall resilience rather than just Hit Point total.)

... back on topic: Divine Mind is the psionic version of the paladin (with crappy psionic abilities, at that) ... and yet it managed to score Medium BAB somehow? It would be first on my list of classes that need BAB boosted to full (fluff-wise), and would still be weak.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-18, 01:38 PM
Hah.

You're right, Dragon Shamans, despite being overall weak (low Tier 4, I agree), do have some advantages in certain areas over Dragonfire Adepts.

Squishiness isn't really one of them.

Since DFA is a SAD-Constitution class, DFAs tend to end up with more Hit Points than anyone else, tied with Totemists.

The classes with bigger Hit Dice? They tend not to worry so much about boosting their CON; they're too busy boosting their STR (and sometimes other stats, like CHA for the Knight). Knight, Warblade ... the only possible exception is the Barbarian, who does at least have some CON-based class features. (And of course the Crusader wins if we're talking overall resilience rather than just Hit Point total.)

... back on topic: Divine Mind is the psionic version of the paladin (with crappy psionic abilities, at that) ... and yet it managed to score Medium BAB somehow? It would be first on my list of classes that need BAB boosted to full (fluff-wise), and would still be weak.


Realy cuz DS's need con as well actualy I'd say con would prolly be within there top 2 abilities they need followed by STR. Seeing as there breathe weapon also works off of CON.

Both DFA's and DS are both dual stat dependent, DS dual stats can change depending on what it wants to do, where as DFA's are primarily con and Charisma

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-18, 01:42 PM
Realy cuz DS's need con as well actualy I'd say con would prolly be within there top 2 abilities they need followed by STR. Seeing as there breathe weapon also works off of CON.

Both DFA's and DS are both dual stat dependent, DS dual stats can change depending on what it wants to do, where as DFA's are primarily con and Charisma

DFAs don't need Cha. They can completely ignore all stats other than Con. They just don't select Invocations that offer a save.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-18, 02:00 PM
DFAs don't need Cha. They can completely ignore all stats other than Con. They just don't select Invocations that offer a save.

I agree with you on that i ment it in the same way like the dual stat caster(favored soul etc ) have dual stats. You can ignore it, just like i could have an effective battlefield controler and some slight buffing with a DS that just focus's on con.

I was just making a point on how DS will have more HP on average then a DFA simply because they both focus on con and a ds has bigger HD.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-18, 02:11 PM
I agree with you on that i ment it in the same way like the dual stat caster(favored soul etc ) have dual stats. You can ignore it, just like i could have an effective battlefield controler and some slight buffing with a DS that just focus's on con.

I was just making a point on how DS will have more HP on average then a DFA simply because they both focus on con and a ds has bigger HD.

Except that a Dragon Shaman cannot focus exclusively on Con for the first 3 levels of his career, his breath weapon's damage scales slower than the DFA's, and his Breath Weapon has a longer recharge time than the DFA's.


On average, a d8 HD is 8+(4.5HP/HD)+Con*Level. A d6 is 3.5, so at most the Dragon Shaman has 21HP on the DFA. Except the DFA has an invocation that grants Temp HP at will, so it's more like 1HP until both characters take damage, at which point the DFA comes out ahead because he can renew his HP at will.

ZeroNumerous
2010-03-18, 02:15 PM
What would be the reason for the fighter to even exist as a class if psywarrior gets everything he does and has psi powers to boot?

Feat-dip. Basically exactly the same reason it exists now.

randomhero00
2010-03-18, 02:17 PM
My opinion probably isn't too useful since I just think nearly all attack classes should get full bab. Like rogue, psywar, monk, etc. In my opinion its easier to bring everyone up, rather than nerf the already OP classes. Not only that, but just roleplay wise, say rogue. He's a full time combatant in the sense he doesn't rely on spells at all (sans UMD, you know what i mean). There needs to be a bigger difference between his BAB and a wizards. As it is, he is only one step away from either. I think he (and any class like it) should be 2 steps above the wizardly types.

Then go from there, give some extra class features to those that already had full bab, like fighter. For instance, he could get 2-4 maneuvers from TOB. Have his saves raised. etc.

edit So to clear it up, anyone who the majority of their time is using their BAB should just get it bumped to full. Those that have decent spell progession too, like arcane archer pathfinder version, probably doesn't need a boost. But frankly I wouldn't mind that either, even though they're already pretty awesome in pathfinder.

mummy162
2010-03-18, 02:53 PM
Giving every single one of those med bab low tier classes access to some form of "magic" (psi, tob, arcane) that would actually go along way in order to fix them and becoming tier 3 classes.
For example give monks psi progression like the psiwarrior and their psilist perhaps with some bonuses from wilder list and they will be a pretty good class.

Flavorfully that won't always work out. I believe there is a psionic prestige class for monks (Fist of Zuoken) that does just that, though.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-18, 02:58 PM
Or just take Tashalatora. Either works.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-18, 03:05 PM
Except that a Dragon Shaman cannot focus exclusively on Con for the first 3 levels of his career, his breath weapon's damage scales slower than the DFA's, and his Breath Weapon has a longer recharge time than the DFA's.


On average, a d8 HD is 8+(4.5HP/HD)+Con*Level. A d6 is 3.5, so at most the Dragon Shaman has 21HP on the DFA. Except the DFA has an invocation that grants Temp HP at will, so it's more like 1HP until both characters take damage, at which point the DFA comes out ahead because he can renew his HP at will.

Though I agree with you about the slower recharge.
The scaling damage is generaly 1 level behind until 14th. then it has better scaling and is higher damage by the end. Though the recharge timer.

Also DS has a d10 HD Average of 10+(5.5/HD)+CON*level


And i would argue the fact that it wouldn't want a high con for the first 3 levels... DS make great meat shields for the first 3 unill it gets its breath weapon.


I've played both and i know For both a high con was desirable.
Though i know a DFA>DS just simply because of invocations.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-18, 03:14 PM
Though I agree with you about the slower recharge.
The scaling damage is generaly 1 level behind until 14th. then it has better scaling and is higher damage by the end. Though the recharge timer.

Also DS has a d10 HD Average of 10+(5.5/HD)+CON*level

Ok, HD was wrong. But DFAs get access to FFBoT and DBoB, both of which at least double their damage output.

Godskook
2010-03-18, 03:14 PM
Though I agree with you about the slower recharge.
The scaling damage is generaly 1 level behind until 14th. then it has better scaling and is higher damage by the end. Though the recharge timer.

Fivefold breath of Taimat pretty much nukes this argument. Plus, there's the recharge rates to be compared. 9d6 every round > 10d6 every 1d4 rounds over even a 3-round period.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-18, 03:21 PM
Ok, HD was wrong. But DFAs get access to FFBoT and DBoB, both of which at least double their damage output.

I don't know the acconyms off the top of my head but im going to assume they are invocations which i've stated is what makes DFAs >DS's...


Godskook: Yes I know about the recharge. it can be lessened to 1d4-1 but even then.




OVer all I was just originaly arguing Draz who said DS's don't focus on Con, which they do. I was never saying DFA's are better.

Boci
2010-03-18, 03:22 PM
Well if we include prestige classes, it always struck me as odd that the Warforged Juggernaut didn't have full BAB, what with being a pure melee class and all.

Deepstone Sentinel from ToB is another one.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-18, 03:28 PM
I don't know the acconyms off the top of my head but im going to assume they are invocations which i've stated is what makes DFAs >DS's...


Godskook: Yes I know about the recharge. it can be lessened to 1d4-1 but even then.




OVer all I was just originaly arguing Draz who said DS's don't focus on Con, which they do. I was never saying DFA's are better.

Actually, Five Fold Breath of Tiamat, and Divine Breath of Bahamut (I think) are blast shapes.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-18, 03:32 PM
Actually, Five Fold Breath of Tiamat, and Divine Breath of Bahamut (I think) are blast shapes.

They are, I stand corrected. Change what is said about due to invocations to invocations/blastshapes

Greenish
2010-03-18, 03:42 PM
Then go from there, give some extra class features to those that already had full bab, like fighter. For instance, he could get 2-4 maneuvers from TOB. Have his saves raised. etc.Or if you're using ToB already, just call some of the warblades fighters.

Draz74
2010-03-18, 04:40 PM
OVer all I was just originaly arguing Draz who said DS's don't focus on Con, which they do. I was never saying DFA's are better.

Fair enough. My limited experience with DS's involved them focusing as much as possible on their healing abilities so that they would have an actual role in the party, so they had to worry more about CHA than CON, and maybe STR too. But if they're breath-focused rather than healing-focused, they can make CON their primary stat.

Even then, I say the DFA gets more out of focusing on CON than the DS does, with the recharge rate thing. And the DFA still gets a d8 Hit Die, so he'll only be behind one HP per level. And only until he can pick up the Draconic Toughness invocation (Level 11+).

My real point was just that calling the DFA "squishy" in almost any context is a mistake.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-18, 04:45 PM
Fair enough. My limited experience with DS's involved them focusing as much as possible on their healing abilities so that they would have an actual role in the party, so they had to worry more about CHA than CON, and maybe STR too. But if they're breath-focused rather than healing-focused, they can make CON their primary stat.

Even then, I say the DFA gets more out of focusing on CON than the DS does, with the recharge rate thing. And the DFA still gets a d8 Hit Die, so he'll only be behind one HP per level. And only until he can pick up the Draconic Toughness invocation (Level 11+).

My real point was just that calling the DFA "squishy" in almost any context is a mistake.


Fair enough i also though DFA's where a d6 HD having just double checked i have found they where not. I know both have staying power as far as HP goes.

Healing focused DS thats a cool idea... though i would still prolly put con higher then CHA. Though thats me

Pluto
2010-03-18, 05:00 PM
Daggerspell Mage? Anyone?

And while I don't think it needs full BA, I'd like Arcane Duelist a lot more with at least 3/4 BA. (That stretch between level 3 and 10 is very long and very dry.)


um theres a dragon shaman handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19865414/The_Dragon_Shaman_Handbook) out there not on BG.
Does that count?
Isn't that more a 4-page Yes-it-can-no-it-can't about the DFA and metabreath feats?

And, IIRC, it's more about the DS's fluff than class features. Which isn't exactly what most people look for when they look for handbooks

Emmerask
2010-03-18, 05:13 PM
Feat-dip. Basically exactly the same reason it exists now.

Sure but why dip fighter if you can dip psiwar which gives you some nice bonus stuff and all those feats (if the psiwar would get fullbab)

Raendyn
2010-03-18, 05:46 PM
All psionic fighters take that blah_blah-strike feat that makes their attacks touch attacks.= their last attack is better than a fighters 2nd attack probably.
giving them Full BAB is a crime not only because we take away the chance that they "Might" miss an attack, but we also give then an extra attack.....

I honestly think that classes should be left as they are, some ppl have though much more than us before creating them.And most of them are balanced (kind of, at least) through prestiges(like soulbow for a soulknife).

It's true that some classes are weaker than some other but thats not a game of "who throws more dices" .there's also flavor here.

Bards play alone inside towns if they know what to do,rogues do everything because they farm more gold->better gear. monks are spell immune & unhit-able.(all those within limits).
All those factors matter, unless some ppl just like throwing dices to make uber dmg.

And never forget. Better prepared > more powerfull. (some players actually.prepare more diviniation spells than evoke/conjur or w/e)

Greenish
2010-03-18, 05:50 PM
Sure but why dip fighter if you can dip psiwar which gives you some nice bonus stuff and all those feats (if the psiwar would get fullbab)You'd dip fighter to get more feats for your psiwar?

I honestly think that classes should be left as they are, some ppl have though much more than us before creating them.And most of them are balanced (kind of, at least) through prestiges(like soulbow for a soulknife).

It's true that some classes are weaker than some other but thats not a game of "who throws more dices" .there's also flavor here.

Bards play alone inside towns if they know what to do,rogues do everything because they farm more gold->better gear. monks are spell immune & unhit-able.(all those within limits).
All those factors matter, unless some ppl just like throwing dices to make uber dmg.

And never forget. Better prepared > more powerfull. (some players actually.prepare more diviniation spells than evoke/conjur or w/e)Ninjaing headesk from SiFir.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-18, 06:00 PM
Sure but why dip fighter if you can dip psiwar which gives you some nice bonus stuff and all those feats (if the psiwar would get fullbab)Why do that now?

The only reason to choose fighter of psywar is because of ACFs, really, unless they were wanting a 2-level dip to get into a PrC a little faster (and frankly I'd rather take 3 levels of psychic warrior than 2 levels of fighter even so; even including BAB you get SO much more out of it).

Flickerdart
2010-03-18, 06:07 PM
Can DShamans and DFire Adepts use Metacheese feats on their breath weapons? Specifically, stacking Enlarge until it hits the universe?

Emmerask
2010-03-18, 06:08 PM
Why do that now?

The only reason to choose fighter of psywar is because of ACFs, really, unless they were wanting a 2-level dip to get into a PrC a little faster (and frankly I'd rather take 3 levels of psychic warrior than 2 levels of fighter even so; even including BAB you get SO much more out of it).

Damn you :smalltongue:
Well you are absolutely right I wouldn´t dip fighter over psywarrior too ^^

absolmorph
2010-03-18, 06:16 PM
You'd dip fighter to get more feats for your psiwar?
Ninjaing headesk from SiFir.
But you're a pirate! Ninjas are your enemies, aren't they?

Volkov
2010-03-18, 06:19 PM
By that logic, Truenamer deserves double BAB, maybe even triple. :smallbiggrin:

And it should get a + infinity bonus to truenaming checks and instantly knows all the incantations....And D% hit dice.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-03-18, 06:26 PM
Can DShamans and DFire Adepts use Metacheese feats on their breath weapons? Specifically, stacking Enlarge until it hits the universe?

Fun fact: Enlarge Breath does not have the "Special: You can apply this feat more than once to the same breath weapon" text that other feats have. This means that, by, RAW, you can't stack it. The example text does, but that's about as RAW as the Malconvoker who casts 5th-level cleric spells with a Wisdom of 14.

Volkov
2010-03-18, 06:28 PM
Fun fact: Enlarge Breath does not have the "Special: You can apply this feat more than once to the same breath weapon" text that other feats have. This means that, by, RAW, you can't stack it. The example text does, but that's about as RAW as the Malconvoker who casts 5th-level cleric spells with a Wisdom of 14.

Shh...That's a trade secret, you aren't supposed to know that.

Greenish
2010-03-18, 06:28 PM
But you're a pirate! Ninjas are your enemies, aren't they?I pirated the concept of "ninjaing" from ninjas. Yarr!

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-18, 06:28 PM
Fun fact: Enlarge Breath does not have the "Special: You can apply this feat more than once to the same breath weapon" text that other feats have. This means that, by, RAW, you can't stack it. The example text does, but that's about as RAW as the Malconvoker who casts 5th-level cleric spells with a Wisdom of 14.

What are you talking about? the Malconvoker obviously has Sanctum Spell. :smallcool:

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-18, 06:30 PM
Can DShamans and DFire Adepts use Metacheese feats on their breath weapons? Specifically, stacking Enlarge until it hits the universe?

They can if they're dragonborn.

Volkov
2010-03-18, 06:30 PM
I pirated the concept of "ninjaing" from ninjas. Yarr!
Oh yeah? Well I have a mammoth tank. So I win....

Greenish
2010-03-18, 06:37 PM
Oh yeah? Well I have a mammoth tank. So I win....I see your mammoth tank and raise an actual mammoth and a towel.

Volkov
2010-03-18, 06:38 PM
I see your mammoth tank and raise an actual mammoth and a towel.

Thou hath been Tusk missiled. Thou art dead...eth...

absolmorph
2010-03-18, 06:39 PM
I see your mammoth tank and raise an actual mammoth and a towel.
I see your mammoth and towel and raise you a Lugia.
If you recognized the first half of my name, you shouldn't be surprised. At all. It came out on Sunday.

Greenish
2010-03-18, 06:43 PM
I see your mammoth and towel and raise you a Lugia.I disable your gameboy with EMP grenade made of bubblegum, a piece of string and a bunch of staples.

And I still have my towel.

Volkov
2010-03-18, 06:59 PM
I disable your gameboy with EMP grenade made of bubblegum, a piece of string and a bunch of staples.

And I still have my towel.

Your towel has been beaten by Boris the Soviet commando and his magical AK-47 (It turns tanks into scrap in seconds.......somehow.)

JoshuaZ
2010-03-18, 07:34 PM
I disagree about Psychic Warrior. It can easily hold its own very well as is. If it had full BAB it would be in all ways superior to the fighter (Ok, not saying much you get the point). If you are using some decent fighter fix or just using ToB then this wouldn't be unreasonable.

Greenish
2010-03-18, 07:41 PM
I disagree about Psychic Warrior. It can easily hold its own very well as is. If it had full BAB it would be in all ways superior to the fighter (Ok, not saying much you get the point). If you are using some decent fighter fix or just using ToB then this wouldn't be unreasonable.I don't think being superior to fighter is the reason you shouldn't buff psywar: I think a better reason is that they don't actually need the buff.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-18, 07:48 PM
I don't think being superior to fighter is the reason you shouldn't buff psywar: I think a better reason is that they don't actually need the buff.

Yeah, pretty much.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-18, 08:05 PM
I don't think being superior to fighter is the reason you shouldn't buff psywar: I think a better reason is that they don't actually need the buff.

Yes, hence the line about them being able to hold their own in there.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-18, 08:45 PM
What if we made this fix to the fighter: give it better skills (Knowledge: Psionics, Autohypnosis, Search, Spot, and Psicraft), then gave it the psychic warrior power list, powers known, and power point progression? :smallwink:

Thurbane
2010-03-18, 09:05 PM
Marshal should definitely be full BAB!!!

I don't even use psionics in my games, and I know that the Psychic Warrior should be full BAB, too.

Lycanthromancer
2010-03-18, 09:06 PM
Marshal should definitely be full BAB!!!

I don't even use psionics in my games, and I know that the Psychic Warrior should be full BAB, too.About the only changes I'd make to the psychic warrior are: a few more pp each level (not many, but a few), and Psicraft as a class skill.

That's about it.

Zeful
2010-03-18, 09:09 PM
I don't think being superior to fighter is the reason you shouldn't buff psywar: I think a better reason is that they don't actually need the buff.

Full-bab puts Psywarriors above Barbarians, as they can do everything Barbarians can and more.

Thurbane
2010-03-18, 09:11 PM
About the only changes I'd make to the psychic warrior are: a few more pp each level (not many, but a few), and Psicraft as a class skill.

That's about it.
Well, like i said, we don't use psi in our games, but it seems really off to me that a class like Psychic Warrior does not have full BAB.

Kind of like how favored Soul doesn't get Knowledge (Religion) on his skill list without some finagling.

...maybe fine (or not) from a balance/mechanics PoV, but seems counterintuitive to me. YMMV.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-18, 09:24 PM
Well, like i said, we don't use psi in our games, but it seems really off to me that a class like Psychic Warrior does not have full BAB.


Psychic Warrior has enough options to buff themselves and the like that they don't need full BAB. Even without it they can dish out a lot of damage and pull off a few other tricks besides.

Temotei
2010-03-18, 09:25 PM
Full-bab puts Psywarriors above Barbarians, as they can do everything Barbarians can and more.

Psychic warriors are already above barbarians.

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 09:28 PM
Feat-dip. Basically exactly the same reason it exists now.

A Psywar with full BAB would take over even that function. Their bonus feat can come from both the fighter and the psionic list, and they get a strong will save, PP and a power to boot. the only thing you'd lose is 2HP off the top of your HD.

From a power perspective, Psywar is fine - it can keep up with ToB, and that's already baseline.


Divine Mind and Marshall: Full BAB!

Very much this. Divine Mind would at least be playable, even with its f'ed up flavor.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-18, 09:30 PM
Psychic warriors are already above barbarians.

Indeed, Psywars are already more versatile, can do more damage with and without optimizing, and can, you know, manifest powers.

Zeful
2010-03-18, 09:31 PM
True, but full bab is something the Barbarian has that the Psi Warrior doesn't. Removing that one advantage pretty much invalidates the need for the barbarian mechanically. The Psi warrior is pretty much the Barbarian + Fighter + Bard Casting.

Thurbane
2010-03-18, 09:36 PM
Psychic Warrior has enough options to buff themselves and the like that they don't need full BAB. Even without it they can dish out a lot of damage and pull off a few other tricks besides.

...maybe fine (or not) from a balance/mechanics PoV, but seems counterintuitive to me. YMMV.
Probably wasn't that clear in my first post, but this is more what I meant.

Anyway, this post gives me another chance to mention Marshal! :smallbiggrin:

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-18, 09:38 PM
Probably wasn't that clear in my first post, but this is more what I meant.

Why? He spends lots of time mentally disciplining to bring out his inner psionic potential, and thus spends less time hitting things with a big stick. Makes sense to me.

Thurbane
2010-03-18, 09:41 PM
Why? He spends lots of time mentally disciplining to bring out his inner psionic potential, and thus spends less time hitting things with a big stick. Makes sense to me.
*sigh* Whatever man, whatever. :smallfrown:

Imagine that, two people who didn't have the same mental picture of a class, especially when one of them isn't particularly familiar with psionics. What are the odds. :smalleek:

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-18, 09:58 PM
*sigh* Whatever man, whatever. :smallfrown:

Imagine that, two people who didn't have the same mental picture of a class, especially when one of them isn't particularly familiar with psionics. What are the odds. :smalleek:

Not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm just wondering why you think that way. For instance, whenever I think of a factotum, I immediately think of a fast stealthy kobold. Actually I have no idea why I think that, so it's not a very good example... anyway, not insulting you, just curious.

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 10:09 PM
Not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm just wondering why you think that way. For instance, whenever I think of a factotum, I immediately think of a fast stealthy kobold. Actually I have no idea why I think that, so it's not a very good example... anyway, not insulting you, just curious.

I always think of a know-it-all gnome who can't shut up about any topic. Who of course carries a quickrazor.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-18, 10:12 PM
I think the issue regarding Psychic Warrior is that while yes the fluff does fit having full BAB in some sense, one needs to keep in mind that BAB is an abstraction. Characters aren't aware of it in game. So all they can tell is that a Psychic Warrior is a warrior who can channel psionic energy to make himself even nastier.

If you want to give one of the psionic classes full BAB give it to the Soulknife. They'll still stink, but they won't stink as much.

Pluto
2010-03-18, 10:27 PM
Their bonus feat can come from both the fighter and the psionic list, and they get a strong will save,
I wish.

I mean, from a "How the class feels like it should be" perspective, I'd give the PW a good Will before I gave it full BA.

With Wisdom-based manifesting, it doesn't really matter, but the bad Will always bugged me a little bit.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-18, 10:49 PM
I wish.

I mean, from a "How the class feels like it should be" perspective, I'd give the PW a good Will before I gave it full BA.

With Wisdom-based manifesting, it doesn't really matter, but the bad Will always bugged me a little bit.

Wait, they don't get good will? Now that's just downright strange.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-18, 11:03 PM
Ninjaing headesk from SiFir.

I don't know what to do about this... Someone stole my desk, and I seem to have lost my head for a moment.

Thurbane
2010-03-18, 11:52 PM
Not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm just wondering why you think that way. For instance, whenever I think of a factotum, I immediately think of a fast stealthy kobold. Actually I have no idea why I think that, so it's not a very good example... anyway, not insulting you, just curious.
Yeah, sorry if my reply was unnecessarily snarky. Under a lot of stress at the moment...my bad.

TBH, I've barely glanced at the writeups for the psi classes, as it's not something we've ever used in our games. The pictures of the dude with the massive sword (if I'm remembering the correct one) lead me down the full BAB path mentally.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-19, 12:06 AM
Yeah, sorry if my reply was unnecessarily snarky. Under a lot of stress at the moment...my bad.

TBH, I've barely glanced at the writeups for the psi classes, as it's not something we've ever used in our games. The pictures of the dude with the massive sword (if I'm remembering the correct one) lead me down the full BAB path mentally.

It does look rather Final Fantasy-esque doesn't it?

SilverStar
2010-03-29, 12:28 PM
I think the issue regarding Psychic Warrior is that while yes the fluff does fit having full BAB in some sense, one needs to keep in mind that BAB is an abstraction. Characters aren't aware of it in game. So all they can tell is that a Psychic Warrior is a warrior who can channel psionic energy to make himself even nastier.

If you want to give one of the psionic classes full BAB give it to the Soulknife. They'll still stink, but they won't stink as much.

Soulknives are excellent in situations where the DM doesn't want to give you squat in the way of equipment, or likes to randomly toss you into jail and the like. I've dealt with a lot of that, as well as the "you can't play a mage because you play nothing but casters" argument.

It's what prompted me to create the Soulmaster prestige class that gives the soulknife the ability to manifest her OTHER equipment.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing them with fighter BAB.

Greenish
2010-03-29, 12:39 PM
What if we made this fix to the fighter: give it better skills (Knowledge: Psionics, Autohypnosis, Search, Spot, and Psicraft), then gave it the psychic warrior power list, powers known, and power point progression? :smallwink:I would also allow it to pick psionic feats with the fighter bonus feats. :smallcool:

Mark Hall
2010-03-29, 12:45 PM
Dragon Disciple. Take a level in that should be taking a HD in Dragon... d12, 8+Int SP, All good Saves, and stacks with sorcerer levels.

Toliudar
2010-03-29, 12:53 PM
Sounds great, except then who'd take a second level of sorcerer?