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Alaris
2010-03-18, 01:28 PM
Well, I'm playing in a D&D 3.5 game currently, and our current 'chapter' within the campaign will be coming to a close soon. The next chapter, I intend to be playing a Wizard/Cleric and go into Theurge (And before all your optimizers go screaming at me that it's a trap, I know).

My DM has changed a few things with the Theurge, and the gist of it is as follows (I don't remember EVERYTHING):

-Both Will and Fortitude are 'Good' saves now.
-Hit Die becomes a d6, instead of a d4.
-Every odd level, gain increased Turn Undead as if you gained another level in cleric.
-Every even level, gain increased Familiar Power, as it you took another level in Wizard or Sorcerer.

Are there any suggestions you would have for fixing the Theurge any further, or in a different way? I think it could work, though I'd have preferred to have its Base Attack Bonus increased to 'Average', but that I can deal without.

Godskook
2010-03-18, 01:37 PM
That time of the month already?


-Both Will and Fortitude are 'Good' saves now.
-Hit Die becomes a d6, instead of a d4.

Decent, but misses the point of what's bad about the class.


-Every odd level, gain increased Turn Undead as if you gained another level in cleric.

Worthless. Not even clerics use Turn Undead to actually turn things. Well, not often.


-Every even level, gain increased Familiar Power, as it you took another level in Wizard or Sorcerer.

So a lesser version of a bonus feat?(Obtain familiar will give you a familiar of your caster level, essentially)

Overall, it doesn't help with any of the reasons that MT is bad, so I'd say its a pretty poor fix. Try looking at Ultimate Magus for class features to consider adding to make it worthwhile.

Douglas
2010-03-18, 01:40 PM
None of those changes address the actual problem, which is that spell progression is too far behind a single class caster. The secondary problem, though it matters only at high levels, is that the class stops too early pre-epic, forcing you to go back to focusing on just one of your casting progressions.

Make it so a Wizard 2/Cleric 2 can qualify (or maybe 3/1 or 1/3), and give it enough levels to take that base all the way to level 20, and you'd have something that might be worthwhile.

Saph
2010-03-18, 01:41 PM
There's no way to 'fix' the Mystic Theurge because the power of the class depends completely on how you're entering it. A straightforward Wiz 3 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge X build is significantly weaker than a straight-classed caster, but it's quite possible to make Mystic Theurge builds which are incredibly powerful. It all comes down to how the class is being used.

Mongoose87
2010-03-18, 01:43 PM
I had an idea for fixing the Mystic Theurge, once. It essentially transformed your Wizard and Cleric levels into a single caster progression and allowed you to add wizard spells to your cleric spells known. I'm not sure how you keep that from becoming OMGWTFBBQPWND, though.

FishAreWet
2010-03-18, 01:43 PM
There's no way to 'fix' the Mystic Theurge because the power of the class depends completely on how you're entering it. A straightforward Wiz 3 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge X build is significantly weaker than a straight-classed caster, but it's quite possible to make Mystic Theurge builds which are incredibly powerful. It all comes down to how the class is being used.

+1

If you make it stronger you make it stronger for the Ur Priest entry too. Which is already good enough...

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-18, 01:48 PM
That time of the month already?

Insert crude joke here.


-Both Will and Fortitude are 'Good' saves now.

K.


-Hit Die becomes a d6, instead of a d4.

Irrelevant, but K.


-Every odd level, gain increased Turn Undead as if you gained another level in cleric.

Not only does Turn Undead suck as written, you want to advance it at 1/2 rate? Oh, and as GK said, no one turns Undead. Real men Rebuke Undead/Elementals/Dragons/Warforged.


-Every even level, gain increased Familiar Power, as it you took another level in Wizard or Sorcerer.

Actually worth something when combine with Cleric Buffs, but still a minor class feature.


It needs actual class features, not minor perks.

Hawk7915
2010-03-18, 01:52 PM
What level are you starting at, and who else is in your party? Here's my thing: at a reasonably high level, 9th level wizard spells are broken as heck anyways. I don't think waiting a few levels for the 9th level spells is such a huge drawback in exchange for casting as a 13th level cleric to boot, right? But if you're starting below level 12 or so, I think it's going to be unbearably miserable to not have access to either sides "big gun" spells (Teleport, Divine Power, Fly, Black Tentacles, Heal). You'll feel especially terrible if there's another straight divine or arcane caster in the party, since while you'll be versatile, they'll probably just pop a higher level "I win" button to make up for it before your versatility and trillion spells/day matter.

At any rate, if your party is reasonably tier 3, you're the only caster, and you are starting at a higher level, I'd say you can go for it with minimal changes. Asking for Armored casting (light) at say 2nd level and Armored Casting (medium + small shields) at 6th or 7th level might be nice, since losing your ability to wear armor from the cleric side is super lame.

Alaris
2010-03-18, 01:58 PM
We're not going to hit 17th level or anything. My DM likes relatively low level campaigns. In this current chapter, we're stretching it with my current character, a 13th level character. That's the highest PC we've had in the game.

Chances are we'll max out at level 10-12 next chapter.

We're starting at level 5, and I'm going with 3 levels wizard, 2 levels cleric.

We have one other caster in the party, or at least primary one. A 3rd level Drow Cleric... so she won't be gaining much in power anytime soon. I'm not going to play another Wizard straight (As I did this chapter, Wizard into Fatespinner), and I'm interested in doing the Theurge.

So on top of this, if we can't fix the Theurge, how about you people give me ideas on how to make a build that can Make it work?

OldFart
2010-03-18, 02:00 PM
Take MT class RAW. Add bonus meta-magic feats at two of the ten levels (say 4 and 9, or 5 and 10).

Now you're only as far behind a single-class wizard as someone who decided to dip into a non-caster class for three levels. Except for familiar, which is one feat to overcome and not an issue to every build.

Hawk7915
2010-03-18, 02:05 PM
Well, if a Drow Cleric is your only competitor (assuming no LA buyoff), then the party in general will be hurting for strong casting but at least you won't be getting totally curb-stomped.

I suppose the tactic I would take is to focus on no-save spells since you'll have a lower spell level, and no-SR spells since you'll be casting with a lower caster level for a while. See if you can't go Archivist/Wizard instead, to get access to an ability that doesn't care about your class levels (Dark Knowledge, at least to a point, only cares about your knowledge skill), and to be less MAD (you only really need Int, though obviously a good Wisdom and Constitution are always nice). Lesser Orb spells might work, as will spells such as Web and Solid Fog that still have a hefty effect regardless of caster/spell level.

Either that, or try again for 3/4 BAB and go for being a pseduo Gish-zilla. Whirling Blade, Wraithstrike, Divine Favor, Divine Power, etc...you could actually do Duskblade/Cleric and be an okay gish I guess.

It's still a trap and it's still not super powerful, but it might work out.

Alaris
2010-03-18, 02:14 PM
While I'm here, since it is my thread based on this... is there an easy way to compensate for not having a rogue? Since we kinda... don't have one. Our party, for the foreseeable future, consists of:

-Me, the Wizard/Cleric
-Drow Cleric
-Ranger
-Paladin

Kinda have to find a way to make up for the Rogue, hopefully with spell or feat selection...

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-18, 02:17 PM
While I'm here, since it is my thread based on this... is there an easy way to compensate for not having a rogue? Since we kinda... don't have one. Our party, for the foreseeable future, consists of:

-Me, the Wizard/Cleric
-Drow Cleric
-Ranger
-Paladin

Kinda have to find a way to make up for the Rogue, hopefully with spell or feat selection...

Several Bags of Tricks, a pair of Eternal Wands of Summon Nature's Ally 1 (if it gives you a Medium animal) or Mount (summon a Horse, tell it to step on a pressure switch while you stand back), and a few wands of Knock.

absolmorph
2010-03-18, 03:28 PM
I saw this thread, and, my memory sparked, ran quickly to my Subscribed Threads. I scrolled down, my sweaty finger moving down the side of the touch pad. There! Retooling the Mystic Theurge: Phenomenal cosmic powers!!!... In this tiny PRC. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133933) Just what I was looking for! The homebrew attempt at a fix for the Mystic Theurge!

Kurald Galain
2010-03-18, 03:32 PM
I don't think the MT needs fixing, really. While a wizard/cleric/MT might not be as powerful as a pure wizard, the point is that the full casters are so much Over Nine Thousand anyway that making them a bit weaker shouldn't hurt.

I believe a MT is perfectly viable in a campaign that doesn't involve top tier character competition. And it's quite fun to surprise the DM with the fact that yes, you do have prepared spells remaining.

Hawk7915
2010-03-18, 03:36 PM
I don't think the MT needs fixing, really. While a wizard/cleric/MT might not be as powerful as a pure wizard, the point is that the full casters are so much Over Nine Thousand anyway that making them a bit weaker shouldn't hurt.

I believe a MT is perfectly viable in a campaign that doesn't involve top tier character competition. And it's quite fun to surprise the DM with the fact that yes, you do have prepared spells remaining.
Agreed; with the given party composition I wouldn't be worried at all. If that was a non-LA cleric, a Factotum, and a Crusader? Yeah, I'd worry that a theurge just isn't gonna cut it. But straight Theurge seems fine for this campaign.

On the subject of trapfinding, you can easily handle it with a few spell slots and wands and scrolls of stuff like Detect Traps, Knock, Summon Monster I, etc. However, you could also ask your Ranger to kindly take the "trap-finder ranger" variant, where (iirc) he loses Track and gains Trapfinding and Disable device on his class skill list. I don't even think he loses Survival on his skill list, so if he is human or has a feat to spare, he can still be the party tracker.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-18, 03:43 PM
I don't think the MT needs fixing, really. While a wizard/cleric/MT might not be as powerful as a pure wizard, the point is that the full casters are so much Over Nine Thousand anyway that making them a bit weaker shouldn't hurt.

I believe a MT is perfectly viable in a campaign that doesn't involve top tier character competition. And it's quite fun to surprise the DM with the fact that yes, you do have prepared spells remaining.
Deciding to take levels in a PrC should never amount to deciding to nerf yourself. If casters are overpowered, then nerf them. The Mystic Theurge greatly weakens whoever enters it (or, more accurately, whoever qualifies for it).

In other words - try that argument on a Healer/Warmage.

Kurald Galain
2010-03-18, 03:59 PM
Deciding to take levels in a PrC should never amount to deciding to nerf yourself.

Greenstar Adept would like a word with you :smalltongue:

Godskook
2010-03-18, 04:02 PM
Insert crude joke here.

Insert response indicating that 'original comment already was crude joke' here.


Not only does Turn Undead suck as written, you want to advance it at 1/2 rate? Oh, and as GK said, no one turns Undead. Real men Rebuke Undead/Elementals/Dragons/Warforged.

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of Devotion feats, but rebuke works too.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-18, 04:06 PM
Greenstar Adept would like a word with you :smalltongue:
I said "should not", not do not. I didn't say that Mystic Theurge was the biggest offender here, either. But there is something wrong with the Mystic Theurge because it is inherently weaker than not taking it, and that deserves fixing. To say it is not fixing because "wizards and clerics could use the nerf" is just wrong.

PurinaDragonCho
2010-03-18, 04:08 PM
While I'm here, since it is my thread based on this... is there an easy way to compensate for not having a rogue? Since we kinda... don't have one. Our party, for the foreseeable future, consists of:

-Me, the Wizard/Cleric
-Drow Cleric
-Ranger
-Paladin

Kinda have to find a way to make up for the Rogue, hopefully with spell or feat selection...

Consider this - one level of rogue plus able learner, then go archivist. You can get a lot of wizard spells. You can also heal, find traps, and give your party some nice buffs. I've played this, and it was very versatile.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-18, 04:10 PM
If you already qualify for the Mystic Theurge, there's no reason not to take it. It's qualifying that's the problem.

Also, a thought that came to me when there was a discussion of poor PrCs in Core, and someone suggested the Loremaster - the Loremaster's class features, with the Mystic Theurge's dual-progression and requirements (or, better, reduced requirements), would seem to fit very well thematically for a lot of Wizard/Clerics or Wizard/Archivists.

lsfreak
2010-03-18, 04:18 PM
Use Ultimate Magus as a base for the MT, and retool it from there. Entry as 3/1 without problems, full casting on one of the two classes with tricks or a compromise between the two classes without tricks, and give it actual class features beyond spells. Gives it most of the power of being straight class-x, but with a few of the tricks of class-y a few levels later.

Alternatively, allow and encourage early-entry tricks.

Roderick_BR
2010-03-18, 05:45 PM
Deciding to take levels in a PrC should never amount to deciding to nerf yourself. If casters are overpowered, then nerf them. The Mystic Theurge greatly weakens whoever enters it (or, more accurately, whoever qualifies for it).

In other words - try that argument on a Healer/Warmage.
On the other hand, PrCs shouldn't make you stronger, just give an specialization and maybe a boost in it. Too many PrCs were created broken, so people think the balanced ones are wrong.

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 05:58 PM
MT is fine. I would like some actual class features though - something that lets you play around with your dual nature, like the Warlock theurges get, or Arcane Heirophant.

And that goes double for Cerebremancer and Psychic Theurge.

Frosty
2010-03-18, 06:10 PM
You can rebuke Warforged? :smallconfused:

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 06:15 PM
You can rebuke Warforged? :smallconfused:

Warforged Domain, granted by Onatar, FoE.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-18, 06:23 PM
IMO? MT should come with class blend abilities.

Sacrifice spells of one class to cast spells of another.
Sacrifice spells of once class to gain an effect of another.

Something like: For each spellcasting class you possess, you may designate one spell at each level to be a Theurgic spell. You may spontaneously cast a Theurgic spell by sacrificing an equal level spell from another spellcasting class. In order to cast a Theurgic spell, you must have as many levels of the primary class for that spell as the level of the spell. (Example: You designate Miracle to be a Theurgic spell for your cleric class. In order to cast miracle, you must expend a 9th level slot from another class's spell list, and you must have 9 levels in the cleric class.)

Now that could be useful, situationally. It rewards those who have several levels in their base classes (and somewhat mitigates the effectiveness of theurging classes like Ur Priest). You'll rarely be able to theurge 9th level spells, but there's potential in the ability to create your own list of spontaneous spells to fit your caster theme. Shadowcraft Mage? Silent Image should be one. Dispel specialist? Get dispel and greater dispel on the list. Are you a spontaneous caster? Pick a spell you don't know, and get essentially another spell known at each level, cast out of your divine slots.

Alternately? Give them Bonus Metamagic feats every few levels, and a capstone of -1 additional level to all metamagic feats (Minimum Level Adjustment for any metamagic feat lowered by this ability is +1.) If you do this? Raise the skill rank requirement to 9 ranks.

Bibliomancer
2010-03-18, 06:32 PM
Warforged Domain, granted by Onatar, FoE.

Even better, in the same book you can rebuke/command elementals with only a holy symbol (without having the appropriate domain) and, even better, you can rebuke Dragonmarked.

In Eberron, that means that you can cause 15 of the 20 most powerful people on Khorvaire to cower before you (no save).*

*Caanith Corporation Ltd. is not responsible for the consequences of any of our readers utilizing said technique on any of our trusted associates in the Dragonmarked Consortium TM. Specifically, we provide no guarantee that said techniques will provide you with enough time to escape** or will even work properly***. As always, all actions are entirely the responsibility of their enactor(s).

**House Thuranni (All Rights Reserved)-the leading cause of slow and painful death among oexcessively literate munchkins.

***Caanith Corporation Ltd. is proud to present our new dragonmark turning shield. Buy one today!

holywhippet
2010-03-18, 06:34 PM
On the other hand, PrCs shouldn't make you stronger, just give an specialization and maybe a boost in it. Too many PrCs were created broken, so people think the balanced ones are wrong.

Agreed, the PrCs and base classes were originally more about theme and flavour than raw power. Hence the reason the fighter is eventually outclassed by the cleric. They assumed that the players would play a certain way - they were not counting on power mad optimisers (admittedly some of the exploits should have been pretty obvious).

MT isn't too bad if you aren't expecting to go into epic levels. It's designed to let a character have a lot of spells at their fingertips while trading off a few spell levels.

Bibliomancer
2010-03-18, 06:44 PM
Agreed, the PrCs and base classes were originally more about theme and flavour than raw power. Hence the reason the fighter is eventually outclassed by the cleric. They assumed that the players would play a certain way - they were not counting on power mad optimisers (admittedly some of the exploits should have been pretty obvious).

MT isn't too bad if you aren't expecting to go into epic levels. It's designed to let a character have a lot of spells at their fingertips while trading off a few spell levels.

True. The main problem with mystic theurge seems to be that it has a very weak opening period (for example, at 7th level its restricted to 2nd level spells while a single classed caster would have access to 4th level spells), since it's OK at 16th level (7/7 casing compared to 8 casting for a single classed caster), and would actually be OK if you knew that the campaign stopped there.

However, arcane hierophant rightfully added some interesting abilities to make the whole package more powerful. The companion familiar is certainly interesting, and you get to keep wild shape. Given that wizards get some very interesting spells with the range of personal, that could result in some very powerful gish builds.

JoshuaZ
2010-03-18, 07:26 PM
Agreed, the PrCs and base classes were originally more about theme and flavour than raw power. Hence the reason the fighter is eventually outclassed by the cleric. They assumed that the players would play a certain way - they were not counting on power mad optimisers (admittedly some of the exploits should have been pretty obvious).


Yes they should have been. And it really doesn't take that much to understand how to optimize a wizard. The first time I ever sat down with the 3.5 rules (after not having played anything for a very long time except an extremely short 2nd edition game when I was around 10 years old) it became very apparent that battle control and save or dies were the way to go. It wasn't obvious that that was going to be better than a fighter in combat, but it was obvious without any number crunching that was going to be more useful than Blaster McBlasty. It doesn't help that WoTC made the situation then much worse by responding to this by simply making Blaster McBlasty more effective with the orb spells. (That's being charitable. It may not have even had that level of thought going in to it).

Edit: Ok. Saying something that is relevant. If one lets the theurge have some class features like using spells from both casting classes then it is ok. My favorite theurge version at each odd level swaps at each odd level a spell over from an arcane to a divine list for the other side as a spell known (and if you need a prayerbook or spellbook or the like the spell gets the equiv of Spell Mastery). You get the same thing for the even side going the other direction (and you have some limits on the spell level swapped with the first pair being at most 1st level, then at most 2nd level and so on until 5th level at 9 and 10). Taken together with an ability to boost caster level on spells on either side by sacking a slot from the other side (boost by spell slot sacrificed) this generally makes things more or less ok.

Sophismata
2010-03-18, 10:14 PM
Taking the Kobold Domain will give you Search, Disable Device and Trapfinding. You can make or buy a Wand of Knock.

JaronK
2010-03-18, 10:23 PM
Easiest fix for the MT: create the Archivist. Done.

But seriously, MT is quite powerful already if you use it right (Wizard 10/Ur Priest 1/MT 9, for a basic example). Making it stronger is a bad idea.

JaronK

JoshuaZ
2010-03-18, 10:27 PM
Easiest fix for the MT: create the Archivist. Done.

But seriously, MT is quite powerful already if you use it right (Wizard 10/Ur Priest 1/MT 9, for a basic example). Making it stronger is a bad idea.

JaronK

That's an argument to nerf Ur-Priest more than an argument that MT is weak. Heck, you can use Ur-Priest to even make a build with True Necromancer work decently.

jiriku
2010-03-18, 10:50 PM
Alaris, to answer your second question, YOU can replace a rogue in a party. Use beguiler (PH2) and cloistered cleric (UA) as your base classes, and you'll have both trapfinding and a solid base of skill points prior to entering mystic theurge. Spend some of those skill points on search and disable device, and get yourself a wand of knock and a wand of find traps, and you're good to go.

To answer your first question, here is my homebrewed mystic theurge prestige class. You and your DM can feel free to steal from it whatever you find useful. Note that for this variant, I specifically disallow any and all early entry tricks -- the early entry option is built right into the prerequisites, and no "tricks" are required.


Entry Requirements: Add the following spellcasting requirements;
Spells: Able to cast 1st-level divine spells and 1st-level arcane spells. Able to cast either 2nd-level divine or arcane spells.
Spells Known/Per Day: This prestige class is a 14-level class. At every mystic theurge level except 5th and 10th, you gain an effective caster level, additional spells known, and additional spells per day as if you had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class and an arcane spellcasting class you belong to. At 5th and 10th level, you gain an effective caster level, additional spells known, and additional spells per day as if you had also gained a level in the spellcasting class in which you have a lower caster level. If both have the same caster level, you choose which class to advance.
Augmented Spell Power (Ex): At 5th, 10th, and 14th level, your caster level for one of your arcane spellcasting classes and one of your divine spellcasting classes increases by +1. This benefit is not cumulative with the Practiced Spellcaster feat. However, at any level where you gain this feature, if you have Practiced Spellcaster for one of the classes that is benefiting from Augmented Spell Power you may retrain that feat for free.
Expanded Spell Knowledge (Ex): At 2nd level, you can choose one spell from among your list of divine spells known and add it to your list of arcane spells known, or vice versa. If the class receiving the additional spell requires you to prepare spells from a spellbook or prayerbook, you may immediately write this spell into your book for the normal cost. The spell you choose must be of a level no higher than half your mystic theurge level. You can add an additional spell in this fashion every two levels thereafter. Only you may cast these modified spells normally; even if you write the spell into a spellbook or prayerbook, scribe it onto a scroll, or place it in a wand or staff, others cannot decipher the spell or activate the item without resorting to the Use Magic Device skill.
Augmented Casting (Su): Starting at 3rd level, you can choose to sacrifice a spell or spell slot from one of your classes to apply the effect of a metamagic feat that you know to a spell cast using another class. (For instance, you could sacrifice a wizard spell to apply a metamagic effect to a cleric spell.) This sacrificed spell or slot is lost (just as if you had cast the spell) in addition to the spell you are actually casting.
The level of the spell to be augmented can't exceed your mystic theurge class level. For example, when you first gain this ability, you can only apply a metamagic effect to 0th- and 1st-level spells. A 14th level mystic theurge can affect spells of 7th level and lower.
The level of the spell or spell slot sacrificed must equal or exceed the spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat. For example, to empower a spell, you would have to spend a 2nd-level or higher spell. You can't use this ability to augment a spell already affected by a metamagic feat, nor can you apply further metamagic to a spell after using this ability to augment it, even if that metamagic is normally applied automatically or for free. Since you don't actually pay the spell level adjustment, feats and class features that reduce the spell level adjustment (such as metamagic school focus or practical metamagic) cannot be used to reduce the minimum level of the spell that must be sacrificed to power this effect.


The concept behind this class was to compensate for some of the flaws of the original MT (poor caster level, severely stunted access to level-appropriate spells, inability to use metamagic effectively at higher levels) without creating a monster of a class that can do everything all the time. Benefits include the option for early entry with assymetric casting, for better caster level and and more level-appropriate abilities, improvements to caster level that are designed to be friendly with the Practiced Spellcaster feat, and a limited ability to apply free metamagic to your lower-level spells.

I was also concerned about keeping the class's power within appropriate limits. To that effect, you'll notice I did nothing to correct the multiple ability dependency, and placed sharp limits on the other class features to prevent them from being exploited in combination with other power magnfiers commonly used in optimization.

Tequila Sunrise
2010-03-18, 11:06 PM
Are there any suggestions you would have for fixing the Theurge any further, or in a different way? I think it could work, though I'd have preferred to have its Base Attack Bonus increased to 'Average', but that I can deal without.
Expand the class to 14 levels, so you don't have to go back to basics or search out a second dual-caster PrC once you hit 16th level. (Well, if your campaign ever gets that far. :smallwink:)

krossbow
2010-03-18, 11:16 PM
Agreed, the PrCs and base classes were originally more about theme and flavour than raw power. Hence the reason the fighter is eventually outclassed by the cleric. They assumed that the players would play a certain way - they were not counting on power mad optimisers (admittedly some of the exploits should have been pretty obvious).

MT isn't too bad if you aren't expecting to go into epic levels. It's designed to let a character have a lot of spells at their fingertips while trading off a few spell levels.



Not neccecarily true about the cleric. They've said before that they intentionally made the cleric a little OP in order to make sure that someone made a cleric in a party (since going around without one is essentially a death sentence usually); they just apparently didn't realize how op it was.

Optimystik
2010-03-18, 11:25 PM
Alaris, to answer your second question, YOU can replace a rogue in a party. Use beguiler (PH2) and cloistered cleric (UA) as your base classes,

I would use Archivist rather than Cloistered Cleric - you're effectively SAD.

krossbow
2010-03-18, 11:30 PM
Obviously, making your character an asian goth Chick will solve all issues.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-18, 11:33 PM
Obviously, making your character an asian goth Chick will solve all issues.

I see a contradiction in terms here...

JaronK
2010-03-18, 11:36 PM
That's an argument to nerf Ur-Priest more than an argument that MT is weak. Heck, you can use Ur-Priest to even make a build with True Necromancer work decently.

Then Wizard 2/Cleric 1/MT 10 using Illuman to qualify early. Or use some Arcane Heirophant with some other modifications. Favoured Soul/Sublime Chord/MT works too. Whatever. Point being you can make MT work.

JaronK

krossbow
2010-03-18, 11:39 PM
I see a contradiction in terms here...

your not getting the connection there :smallwink:

Fawsto
2010-03-18, 11:51 PM
It is incredible how a MT Necromancer can hold as Villain an entire year of campaign.

It seems that being 2 - 3 levels above the party and having means to get enough rounds to unleash all those spells are enough to make it a very, very, hard to kill mo fo.

Agree with Saph.

Also agree with Roderick. Prestige classes are specializations, but a lot do it wrong, and so do it "a little bit" too well. Take the Warpriest, it's theme and specailization is that of a Cleric who is trying to be better at fighting and loses caster levels (although, a pure Cleric melees way better). There is, in the other hand, the Ordained Champion that has a minimal entry investment, loses almost nothing at spellcasting (for kicks, it gets so many spell improving things that I almost think it should lose more CasterLs), and gets so many good features in only 5 levels that it puts any Paladin or Fighter into shame, barely broken, IMO. And there is the Church Inquisitor, almost no entry requirements and can be taken very, very soon, giving you an extra domain and a few imunities, only adding into an already powerful Class.

And there are Planar Shepherds and Incantatrixes... Isnt DnD world and beautiful one?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-03-19, 12:09 AM
Consider this - one level of rogue plus able learner, then go archivist. You can get a lot of wizard spells. You can also heal, find traps, and give your party some nice buffs. I've played this, and it was very versatile.

If you get one level of Rogue, at least get 2 for Evasion. Also makes sure to get the Feat Rogue variant. But really, there's better ways to get Trapfinding. Granted, you're wanting Able Learner for the skills as well, with Archivist, but really, you can get simpler than that.

You want trapfinding in an arcane class? It's called Beguiler.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-19, 12:15 AM
Then Wizard 2/Cleric 1/MT 10 using Illuman to qualify early. Or use some Arcane Heirophant with some other modifications. Favoured Soul/Sublime Chord/MT works too. Whatever. Point being you can make MT work.

JaronK
You can but you need the kinds of tricks that makes DMs, at best, laugh at you and say "no."

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-19, 12:29 AM
You can but you need the kinds of tricks that makes DMs, at best, laugh at you and say "no."

I've allowed 1 side early entry for Theurge, before. It's not unbalanced.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-19, 12:34 AM
I agree, it's not. My own DM in one game has spoken favorably of it, and even tried to run it himself when applying for a different game - which the DM nixed. I'm actually just about to start a Cleric 1/Sorcerer 4, aiming for the horrid Cleric 3/Sorcerer 4 entry (honestly, I'm only doing it because I actually want to show the DM how bad it is - ironically the character is an Illumian with Improved Krau Sigil). And I've seen other DMs ban it, too.

The problem is that allowing it for MTs and not for, say, anything else, is problematic. Allowing the Precocious Apprentice trick sets a bad precedent. Which is why you just fix the Mystic Theurge to avoid the problem altogether.

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-19, 12:46 AM
I agree, it's not. My own DM in one game has spoken favorably of it, and even tried to run it himself when applying for a different game - which the DM nixed. I'm actually just about to start a Cleric 1/Sorcerer 4, aiming for the horrid Cleric 3/Sorcerer 4 entry (honestly, I'm only doing it because I actually want to show the DM how bad it is - ironically the character is an Illumian with Improved Krau Sigil). And I've seen other DMs ban it, too.

The problem is that allowing it for MTs and not for, say, anything else, is problematic. Allowing the Precocious Apprentice trick sets a bad precedent. Which is why you just fix the Mystic Theurge to avoid the problem altogether.

You can say that certain tricks are allowed on a case by case basis, based on PrC power.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-19, 01:05 AM
Absolutely you can. Why not just change the pre-requisites? That's easier and doesn't impose a feat tax (or it could, if you wanted to, but it makes much more sense to just state that upfront with the requirements than to require a trick).

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-19, 01:06 AM
Absolutely you can. Why not just change the pre-requisites? That's easier and doesn't impose a feat tax (or it could, if you wanted to, but it makes much more sense to just state that upfront with the requirements than to require a trick).

Tricks are fun?

Superglucose
2010-03-19, 01:29 AM
Overall, it doesn't help with any of the reasons that MT is bad, so I'd say its a pretty poor fix. Try looking at Ultimate Magus for class features to consider adding to make it worthwhile.
Mystic Theurge is not bad. I'm sorry but it drives me absolutely crazy when people go on about how "terrible" a class it is.

Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 10/Wizard 4 has 9th level wizard casting and 7th level Cleric casting.

9th level wizard casting beats the tar out of most other classes.

Yes, it's strictly worse than Wizard 20 or Cleric 20, but saying that it's "worse than tier 1" is like saying a Peacekeeper is weak because it doesn't have the same maximum payload as Tsar Bomba, or an elephant doesn't weigh much because an Apatosaurus* weighs more, or that the 110F average temperature of Death Valley is somehow "cold" compared to the mid Saharan 120F.

Yes it's pretty much on par with Wizard 17. But then again, didn't Tippy prove that Wizard 17 is pretty much God in D&D?

PhoenixRivers
2010-03-19, 02:13 AM
Mystic Theurge is not bad. I'm sorry but it drives me absolutely crazy when people go on about how "terrible" a class it is.

Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 10/Wizard 4 has 9th level wizard casting and 7th level Cleric casting.

9th level wizard casting beats the tar out of most other classes.

Yes, it's strictly worse than Wizard 20 or Cleric 20, but saying that it's "worse than tier 1" is like saying a Peacekeeper is weak because it doesn't have the same maximum payload as Tsar Bomba, or an elephant doesn't weigh much because an Apatosaurus* weighs more, or that the 110F average temperature of Death Valley is somehow "cold" compared to the mid Saharan 120F.

Yes it's pretty much on par with Wizard 17. But then again, didn't Tippy prove that Wizard 17 is pretty much God in D&D?

...At level 20.

At level 9?

It's swingin' level 3 spells while the full caster's dropping level 5 spells.

That's a big difference, in the mid level.

And it's a comparative evaluation, because the quality of a PrC is really only measurable by how it compares in relation to not taking it. Frenzied berserker is a strong PrC, because it compares favorably to the alternative (barbarian only).

MT is a caster/caster gish, essentially. While I agree that it's not that bad, without EE, it's more or less a 13 level PrC that doesn't advance casting for the first three levels.

That's kinda big, and the power difference is noticable all the way to 20, without EE.

So yes, comparatively, an elephant is light, when you're comparing it to a Blue Whale.

T.G. Oskar
2010-03-19, 03:28 AM
Mystic Theurge is not bad. I'm sorry but it drives me absolutely crazy when people go on about how "terrible" a class it is.

Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 10/Wizard 4 has 9th level wizard casting and 7th level Cleric casting.

9th level wizard casting beats the tar out of most other classes.

Yes, it's strictly worse than Wizard 20 or Cleric 20, but saying that it's "worse than tier 1" is like saying a Peacekeeper is weak because it doesn't have the same maximum payload as Tsar Bomba, or an elephant doesn't weigh much because an Apatosaurus* weighs more, or that the 110F average temperature of Death Valley is somehow "cold" compared to the mid Saharan 120F.

Yes it's pretty much on par with Wizard 17. But then again, didn't Tippy prove that Wizard 17 is pretty much God in D&D?

The point of discussion is essentially how the character is expected to act.

So: while a Wiz 3/Clr 3/MT 1 is capable of casting 2nd level spells of both sides, a pure Cleric or pure Wizard will have its first 4th level spells.

If your intention is to make a better Wizard, then you're, for most of your adventuring life, two spell levels behind. The problem that this implies, and of course the vision of Mystic Theurge as a weak prestige class as the answer of the consensus, is that the acquisition of a second set of 2nd level spells does not balance the power of 4th level spells, and that it will remain the same until much later, when you'll be taking more Wizard levels to achieve what the Wizard did three levels ago.

In shorter words; it is a late-bloomer class on a game where you'll rarely get to be a late bloomer. If the gist of your build is to be awesome at level 20, then there's a big problem since you either need to start at level 20 or suck up 19 levels of troubles. When you're the primary caster, things get messy fast. If you're the secondary caster, you are relegated to minor duties while the primary caster does its job.

As a good result; while you'll have Glitterdust as a 2nd level spell, the main Wizard will already have Evard's Black Tentacles on its list, and will be capable of handling about the same amount of monsters as you do. On the meanwhile...you get...Spiritual Weapon? (It's actually a good spell IMO). The Cleric, on the other hand, has already replaced the Fighter.

Take it a few levels later. Wiz 3/Clr 3/MT 2. Just...one more level. Now, you get 3rd level spells, which is essentially one spell level behind than the main casters. So you can provide one heck of a buffing and fly and do what main spellcasters did three levels ago.

One more level later, the Wizard gets Shadow Evocation and Celerity and Overland Flight which already replaced your Fly spell. The Cleric gets gets to see the reality of the world, revive the dead, grow insanely high and mighty, kill people just by looking at them, snoop around other people...oh, and resist spells pretty well.

That follows all the rest of the levels.

Now, if you can skip all that gruesome level-based growth, then your statement is quite correct; it is fearsome to have a Wizard with 9th level spells, ability to use such stuff as Celerity and Time Stop and Wish and couple it with, for example, a Holy Word for the heck of it. But it requires you to be instantly awesome. While the Wizard basically proved his worth for around 19 levels, when you reach 20th level, you finally "catch" up with the Wizard and prove to him that your choice of going 9th level spells was not a bad idea; maybe even then you'll have 7th level spells, which makes you go Archmage and enjoy some of the nice stuff you can get with it.

And I can say what happens to those builds that become late-bloomers. They don't reach very well very fast, and unless they do get a niche in the game they'll get out of it pretty fast. That is, depending on whether your party is cohesive or not; more often than not, they'll resent your liability but enjoy your presence for some other reason.

I must say there is something that's great for Mystic Theurges. They can use wands, staves and scrolls without ever touching UMD. However, you'll be exhausting your resources (and your party's resources) by going through all those scrolls and wands and staffs just to keep up with a Wizard's power, except only 3 levels below (still, that means you won't fail the caster level check unless you get a 2 or less!)

Now, playing the MT as-is on the DMG requires some finesse. It requires finding a good niche to work with, pushing it as much as you can, and remain useful until you become awesome. It takes that kind of finesse that you need for a Sorcerer; aka, choosing the right spells that work fine even if they're two levels behind and exploit the heck out of them as they are your primary sources, just as the Sorcerer has to choose spells that do several things or else rely on scrolls to do the job of spells that have utility for one or two things. SAD (such as going Archivist/Wizard or...er-hem, Favored Soul/Shugenja/Mystic and Sorcerer/Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necro) helps a lot since you use a single stat you can develop on, and you can focus those resources pretty well (instead of forcefully developing two side by side). And finally, be worthwhile so as to remain useful for a party even with your delayed spellcasting potential.

Then again, don't expect to be the unholy union of Batman and the CoDzilla.

And yes, this is coming from someone who made a Mystic Theurge retooling that allows earlier entry, takes stuff from the even worse Geomancer and gives it some nicer stuff. You may figure how much I learned from trying to make an improved homebrew version out of it.

Optimystik
2010-03-19, 07:37 AM
Absolutely you can. Why not just change the pre-requisites? That's easier and doesn't impose a feat tax (or it could, if you wanted to, but it makes much more sense to just state that upfront with the requirements than to require a trick).

A feat tax is a small price to play for early entry to a theurge.

"Oh gosh, I spent a whole feat to get access to a brand new spell list, I nerfed myself!"

Tyndmyr
2010-03-19, 08:27 AM
Fixing MT is easy.

Step 1. Allow early entry. This can be done either via existing shenanigans or house ruled.

Step 2. Allow levels in it to be taken beyond 10, even pre-epic.

Done!

adecoy95
2010-03-19, 09:09 AM
a cleric with the spell domain casts more arcane than a mystic theruge does, ditch it.

the pathfinder theurge is pretty good tho, but you have to drone through 15 levels of gimp to reach the good ability (imo i would give the ability times/day at earlier levels and then unlimited at 10th)

Epinephrine
2010-03-19, 09:17 AM
The Pathfinder MT (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/mystic-theurge) is a little better than the 3.5 version; two powers help a little bit, though neither is broken.


Combined Spells (Su)
A mystic theurge can prepare and cast spells from one of his spellcasting classes using the available slots from any of his other spellcasting classes. Spells prepared or cast in this way take up a slot one level higher than they originally occupied. This ability cannot be used to cast a spell at a lower level if that spell exists on both spell lists. At 1st level, a mystic theurge can prepare 1st-level spells from one of his spellcasting classes using the 2nd-level slots of the other spellcasting class. Every two levels thereafter, the level of spells that can be cast in this way increases by one, to a maximum of 5th-level spells at 9th level (these spells would take up 6th-level spell slots). The components of these spells do not change, but they otherwise follow the rules for the spellcasting class used to cast the spell.

Spontaneous spellcasters can only select spells that they have prepared that day using non-spontaneous classes for this ability, even if the spells have already been cast. For example, a cleric/sorcerer/mystic theurge can use this ability to spontaneously cast a bless spell using a 2nd-level sorcerer spell slot, if the character had a prepared bless spell using a 1st-level cleric spell slot, even if that spell had already been cast that day.

Spell Synthesis (Su)
At 10th level, a mystic theurge can cast two spells, one from each of his spellcasting classes, using one action. Both of the spells must have the same casting time. The mystic theurge can make any decisions concerning the spells independently. Any target affected by both of the spells takes a 2 penalty on saves made against each spell. The mystic theurge receives a +2 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance with these two spells. A mystic theurge may use this ability once per day.



the pathfinder theurge is pretty good tho, but you have to drone through 15 levels of gimp to reach the good ability (imo i would give the ability times/day at earlier levels and then unlimited at 10th)

I'd probably make it times/day earlier as well, and make it an at-will ability that needs to be recharged - taking a full round action ( la Book of Nine Swords) at 10th. Alternatively, one could make it like the spellweaver ability, and allow them to cast two spells at a time as long as the total spell level was less than some scaling amount (level/2?), allowing a 16th level MT to cast a 6th and a 2nd, or two 4ths, etc.

FMArthur
2010-03-19, 01:01 PM
I don't see how losing 1 level of your caster class to gain 11 levels of another alongside your current one can be considered weak. It's a more than fair trade.

Optimystik
2010-03-19, 01:04 PM
I don't see how losing 1 level of your caster class to gain 11 levels of another alongside your current one can be considered weak. It's a more than fair trade.

Losing 1 level is ideal (Early Entry.) It's losing 3-4 that hurts.

Telonius
2010-03-19, 01:26 PM
Personally, this is one of those rare occasions where I think it shouldn't be fixed. The idea of the Theurge is to have somebody who can cast both Divine and Arcane spells. If a player wants to do that, they should probably be playing Gestalt. There are a few classes that can do approximations of that role (Archivist, Artificer, Cleric with Greater Anyspell...). All of them are Tier 1.

I also see this as a bit of an Elan/Nale issue. So you jump through six or seven hoops of weird prereqs and borderline-cheesy feats just so you can play something about as powerful as an Archivist. Why not just play an Archivist? And if you're going for something obviously more powerful than Archivist, why would any spellcaster be anything but the PrC you're building?

JaronK
2010-03-19, 01:35 PM
Well, to solve the late bloomer thing, what about reducing the requirements but making it lose casting levels? For example, what if the requirements were 2nd level arcane spells and first level divine spells with 7 ranks in a skill (maybe Spellcraft?) but then losing two arcane casting levels during the PrC? Now the Ur Priest entry is less powerful (because you lose more arcane casting) but the traditional entry is the same (though you finish the class earlier from Wizard 3/Cleric 1/MT 10 as compared to 3/3/10)... just with less of a late bloomer issue if those two lost levels are at, let's say, 4 and 8. You could even make the class longer like the True Necromancer, into a 14 or so level class.

JaronK

Blackfang108
2010-03-19, 01:36 PM
at the very least, there's no excuse for it not going at least a few (2-4) more levels.

Superglucose
2010-03-19, 01:47 PM
at the very least, there's no excuse for it not going at least a few (2-4) more levels.
That, I like. Make it a 15 level PrC and you can get 9th divine and 9th arcane. Maybe find a way to lower the pre-reqs so that it's level 4 instead of level 6 entry and then you can have a Wizard2/Cleric2/MT 15/Something1. Then you'll be consistently one spell level behind (level 5 you get 2nd level when they're getting 3rd) instead of two, but have twice the pool to draw from.

But still, saying it's weak because it doesn't hold to Tier 1s strikes me as silly.

JaronK
2010-03-19, 01:49 PM
But still, saying it's weak because it doesn't hold to Tier 1s strikes me as silly.

This, certainly. The problem is you pretty much have to be T1 already to get in (that's not always true, but it usually is). So you have to compare it to T1 and that makes it look weak, even though even the traditional W3/C3/MT10 build is a heck of a lot stronger than something like Fighter or Monk 16.

JaronK

Blackfang108
2010-03-19, 02:15 PM
This, certainly. The problem is you pretty much have to be T1 already to get in (that's not always true, but it usually is). So you have to compare it to T1 and that makes it look weak, even though even the traditional W3/C3/MT10 build is a heck of a lot stronger than something like Fighter or Monk 16.

JaronK

Doesnt' that describe most single classed level 16s?

Optimystik
2010-03-19, 02:27 PM
Doesnt' that describe most single classed level 16s?

The weak-tier ones, yes.

Godskook
2010-03-19, 03:06 PM
That, I like. Make it a 15 level PrC and you can get 9th divine and 9th arcane. Maybe find a way to lower the pre-reqs so that it's level 4 instead of level 6 entry and then you can have a Wizard2/Cleric2/MT 15/Something1. Then you'll be consistently one spell level behind (level 5 you get 2nd level when they're getting 3rd) instead of two, but have twice the pool to draw from.

But still, saying it's weak because it doesn't hold to Tier 1s strikes me as silly.

I'm not saying it is weak "because it doesn't hold to Tier 1", I'm saying it is weak because you spend 4 levels with exactly the same max-power, outside standard HD progression. A Wiz 3 and and a Wiz 3/Cler 3/MT 1 have the same max spell level, and for the most part, the same tricks. Meanwhile, even the fighter and monk have gotten *better*. Hence why I used Ultimate Magus as an example to use to fix it. It not only gets class features, but spreads out the lost caster levels over the entire progression so that you don't feel the pain all at once.

Although a L4 entry wouldn't be that bad.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-19, 03:54 PM
A feat tax is a small price to play for early entry to a theurge.

"Oh gosh, I spent a whole feat to get access to a brand new spell list, I nerfed myself!"
Oh christ, that is not what I said! I even specifically said you can put in the feat tax if you want. What I said was that if you're going to have a feat tax, put it in the pre-reqs, not hide it in some obscure early-entry trick.

Mystic Theurge with a 3/1 is a solid trade. A 3/2 entry is a downgrade by not that bad. 3/3 is abysmal, and 3/4 is insane.

These builds are by no means unplayable, and are still much stronger than many other classes. However, in my opinion:

The only meaningful way to measure a Prestige Class's power is to compare it to its entry. If a single-classed Wizard is always in all ways 100% superior to a Wizard/Archivist/Mystic Theurge of the same level, the Mystic Theurge PrC is bad.


Again, is anyone going to argue that a Healer/Warmage/Mystic Theurge is anything better than awful?