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EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-20, 03:10 PM
The Defender
(Combination of Deepstone Sentinel and Dwarven Defender, reworked for Pathfinder; some abilities paraphrased from ToB).
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/thumb/e/e8/Dwarven_Defender.JPG/250px-Dwarven_Defender.JPG
Don't worry, I can hold them off! - Orlik Ironhammer, defender

A defender is loyal to the death to his clan and his compatriots, defending them with his life. He learns to shrug off blows that would fell a lesser warrior, retaliating with earthshaking strikes that splinter bone and crush armor.

BECOMING A DEFENDER
Entry Requirements:
Race: Dwarf
Alignment: Any Lawful
Base Attack Bonus: +7
Skills: ((3.5)) Concentration 10 Ranks, Balance 10 Ranks
Feats: Combat Expertise, Shield Focus
Martial Maneuvers: 2 Stone Dragon maneuvers and 1 Stone Dragon stance

Hit Die:d12
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known|Special
1|+1|+1|+0|+0|1|0|0|Defensive Stance, Overbearing Protector
2|+2|+1|+1|+1|0|0|0|Tough As Granite, DR 1/-
3|+3|+2|+1|+1|1|1|0|Mettle
4|+4|+2|+1|+1|0|0|0|Mountain Fortress Stance, DR 2/-
5|+5|+3|+2|+2|1|0|1|Improved Defensive Stance
6|+6|+3|+2|+2|0|1|0|Stone Curse, DR 3/-
7|+7|+4|+2|+2|1|0|0|Improved Mettle
8|+8|+4|+3|+3|0|0|0|Indomitable Redoubt, DR 4/-
9|+9|+5|+3|+3|1|1|0|Greater Defensive Stance
10|+10|+5|+3|+3|0|0|1|Awaken the Stone Dragon, DR 5/-[/table]
Skills (4+Int modifier per level): Acrobatics, Appraise, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (dungeoneering), Perception, Profession, Sense Motive

Class Features
Maneuvers and Stances: You add your full defender levels to your Initiator Level from a previous martial adept class for the purposes of determining total IL and highest-level maneuvers known. At each odd-numbered level, you gain a new maneuver known from the Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, or Stone Dragon disciplines. You must meet a maneuver's prerequisites to learn it. You add your full defender level to your initiator level to determine total initiator level. Every third level, you can ready one more maneuver per encounter. At fifth level, you learn one more stance. At initiator levels divisible by four, you may replace any currently known maneuver with another you meet the prerequisites for.
Defensive Stance (Ex): A defender not currently in a martial stance can, as a swift action, enter a defensive stance that grants him +2 to Constitution, a +1 bonus on all saves, and a +2 competence bonus to AC. While in this stance, he cannot move more than 5' in a round without losing the benefits of the stance.
At 5th level, he gains +2 to Strength, +4 to Constitution, +2 to all saves, and a +4 competence bonus to AC. This replaces its former benefits.
At 9th level, he gains +2 to to Strength, +4 to Constitution, +4 to all saves, a +6 competence bonus to AC, and a +2 bonus to his Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD). This replaces its former benefits.
Overbearing Protector (Ex): You can make an extraordinary effort to defend an ally in danger. When an enemy attacks an ally or targets him with an offensive spell that does not also target you, you may, as an immediate action, make a bull rush attempt as part of a charge at that enemy. You gain a +4 morale bonus to your CMB for this attempt, which (if successful) deals damage equal to 2d6 + your Strength modifier. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity, and it does not end your defensive stance (though it does negate the Mountain Fortress Stance ability gained at third level). This ability must be recharged as a martial maneuver, but does not count as a readied maneuver. You may only use this ability while in your defensive stance.
Mettle (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a defender has a greater resiliency to unusual effects than most warriors. When he is targeted by any effect allowing a Fortitude or Will save for a lesser effect, he instead avoids the effect entirely.
Damage Reduction (Ex): A defender has damage reduction equal to 1/2 his class level, rounded down (1/- at level 2, 2/- at level 4, etc.).
Tough As Granite (Ex): A defender's skin toughens as he trains, becoming thick enough to turn blows. He can apply his Constitution modifier as a natural armor bonus to AC (to a maximum of 1/2 his class level + 1 [+1 at first level, +2 at 2nd, +3 at 4th, etc.]). This is a modification of his normal racial natural armor bonus (+0), not an enhancement bonus thereto.
Mountain Fortress Stance (Su): In your defensive stance, you can choose to create a fortress of earth or stone (provided you are standing on an earth or stone surface, or 1' above one). The square(s) you occupy forms a pillar of stone 5 feet tall, and all adjacent squares become difficult terrain. The stone shifts as you adjust your footing, requiring a DC 10 Acrobatics check to enter or leave the affected squares without falling prone. The pillar moves with you if you take a 5' step, but any more movement causes it to crumble. Squares of difficult terrain created by this ability return to normal when you move away from them, or when the stance ends.
Using your Overbearing Protector ability while in Mountain Fortress stance causes all creatures within the difficult terrain the stance creates to make a DC 15 Acrobatics check to avoid falling prone (to which stability bonuses do not apply) as the hill collapses.
Stone Curse (Su): As an immediate action, you can freeze an opponent you have hit with a melee attack in his tracks, weighing his limbs down like stones. He must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Str modifier) or have his speed for all modes of movement drop to 0 for 1 round. This ability must be used after successfully attacking, but before rolling damage.
Improved Mettle (Ex): At 7th level, a defender who fails his save against an effect allowing for a Fortitude or Will save for a partial effect still suffers only the reduced effect, as though he had made his save (but did not possess the Mettle ability).
Indomitable Redoubt (Ex): Starting at 8th level, you can benefit from one Stone Dragon stance while in your defensive stance. You may initiate your defensive stance even while in a martial stance, as long as it is from the Stone Dragon discipline.
Awaken the Stone Dragon (Su): At 10th level, you can cause an earthquake once per encounter as a swift action. All enemies in a 60-foot radius must make successful Reflex saves (DC 10 + 1/2 character level + Str modifier) or take 12d6 points of damage and fall prone. A save allows for half damage, and you remain standing. Improved stability does not provide a bonus on this save.

PinkysBrain
2010-03-20, 04:17 PM
Way way way too many AC bonuses.

I still say it should simply get the deepstone sentinel skill list.

You have a better manoeuvre progression than a bloody warblade.

I'm not too fond of the arbitrary "lets make good martial PrCs only available at higher levels" WotC philosoph. I'd simply make the BAB requirement +5.

Sneaky change in the type of the save bonus from the dwarven defender there :)

I liked passwall and dragon's tooth ... gave the deepstone sentinel some mobility options underground (ad-hoc doors and elevators).

I'd do this :
Entry Requirements:
Race: Dwarf
Alignment: Any Lawful
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Feats: Power Attack or Stone Power, Shards of Granite
Martial Maneuvers: 2 Stone Dragon maneuvers and 1 Stone Dragon stance

Hit Die:d10
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known|Special
1|+1|+2|+0|+0|0|0|0|Defensive Stance, Mountain Fortress Stance, Passwall
2|+2|+3|+0|+0|1|0|0|Tough As Granite, DR 1/-
3|+3|+3|+1|+1|0|0|0|Indomitable Redoubt
4|+4|+4|+1|+1|0|0|0|Avenging Charge, DR 2/-
5|+5|+4|+1|+1|0|1|1|Uncanny Dodge, Improved Defensive Stance
6|+6|+5|+2|+2|1|0|0|Crashing Mountain Juggernaut, DR 3/-
7|+7|+5|+2|+2|0|0|0|Dragon's Tooth
8|+8|+6|+2|+2|0|0|0|Improved Uncanny Dodge, DR 4/-
9|+9|+6|+3|+3|0|0|0|Greater Defensive Stance
10|+10|+7|+3|+3|1|1|0|Awaken the Stone Dragon, DR 5/-[/table]

Nix both the AC dodge bonuses.

Defensive Stance (Ex): A defender in a Stone Dragon stance can forgo its effects as a swift action to enter a defensive stance that grants him +2 to Constitution, a +1 bonus on all saves. While in this stance, he cannot move more than 5' in a round without losing the benefits of the stance.
At 5th level, he gains +2 to Strength, +2 to Constitution, +2 to all saves and a +2 bonus to his Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD). This replaces its former benefits.
At 9th level, he gains +4 to to Strength, +4 to Constitution, +4 to all saves, and a +4 bonus to his Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD). This replaces its former benefits.

Tough as Granite (Ex): A defender can apply 1/2 his Constitution modifier as a bonus to AC (to a maximum of 1/2 his class level) while in Defensive Stance.

Avenging Charge (Ex) : Whenever an enemy attacks an ally or targets him with a spell that does no also target you, you can as an immediate action make a charge attack at your normal movement speed.
If you are in Mountain Fortress Stance you can attempt to charge through occupied squares by using Overrun without provoking additional attacks of opportunity (though your movement can still provoke). Anyone caught in the path takes 2d6 bludgeoning damage with no save.
You do not lose the benefits of Defensive Stance or Mountain Fortress Stance for this movement.

The problem with the original dwarfen defender and your defender is that you are all well and good at defending yourself ... but not very good at defending others.

The whole idea of the avenging charge is that you could punish people who would attack your team mates while still retaining some of the class benefits (the charge attack itself isn't really the big punishment, but standing next to you is ... especially while you're in mountain fortress stance, this is a nasty position to be in). Instead of having a doorstop mode (also adding "in a straight line" to the ability seems unnecessary to me, charges are normally in a straight line and if someone wants to optimize a bit so he can make non straight charges let him).

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-20, 06:05 PM
Well, to be perfectly honest, I sort of like avenging charge, but not most of the other suggested changes. Cutting the AC bonuses kills half the pointómaking yourself unhittable at the expense of mobility. Without copious AC boosts, you're not really a very good wall. I can see reducing them and switching part over to CMD, but not eliminating them.

The maneuver progression is mostly from DS (every other level, with one readied every 3); I added 2 stances but I can cut it back to one and reduce the number readied if that seems more balanced.

The save type change was because resistance bonuses are common as dirt, and the DD +2 would probably not matter by level 8 (maybe you'd only have a ring +1, but you'd get a better one pretty soon).

I sort of liked the mobility abilities (passwall and dragon's tooth), but they're not defender-y enough. I could see them, but I didn't want to sacrifice anything to get them, and leaving them in made it way too full.

It essentially has the DS skill list. Balance is Acrobatics, Concentration/Listen/Spot are rolled into Perception (Concentration only for purposes of Diamond Mind; for casters it's a level check now), Craft stays, Intimidate stays, Knowledge goes because it's a powerful enough PrC with a limited skill list. Martial Lore is pretty useless, and since I'm designing this for a game that does not include it, I left it out.

Avenging charge is quite powerful for an at-will ability that doesn't end your stances. I would perhaps suggest making it recharge as though it were a martial maneuver and force you to sacrifice the mountain fortress stance (but not defensive stance).

Making this available at level 5 is WAY too powerful, especially with Mountain Fortress at level 1. DS was a little weak as published, but not extraordinarily so; moving its signature ability down 5 character levels is obscene. I nerfed the stance from DD to make it available more often (DS mechanic), but moving it down 2 more levels is still too good.

PinkysBrain
2010-03-20, 09:15 PM
making yourself unhittable at the expense of mobility. Without copious AC boosts, you're not really a very good wall.
Walls aren't hard to hit, they just have lots of hitpoints and damage reduction. I fail to see the fun in going off the RNG, your version has +15 AC at the end.

Avenging charge is quite powerful for an at-will ability that doesn't end your stances.
Perhaps ...

Avenging Avalanche (Ex) : While you are in the Mountain Fortress stance whenever an enemy attacks an ally or targets him with a spell that does no also target you, you can throw yourself down your mountain fortress to push back the enemy. You can as an immediate action end the mountain fortress stance to initiate the Charging Minotaur manoeuvre. You do not need to have it readied or to expend it.
You can attempt to charge through occupied squares by using Overrun without provoking additional attacks of opportunity (though your movement can still provoke). Anyone caught in the path takes 2d6 bludgeoning damage with no save.

Should probably put charging minotaur in the prereqs then ... charging minotaur is better than a normal charge, since this really puts the defending in your defender ... pushing enemies away from your allies.

Making this available at level 5 is WAY too powerful, especially with Mountain Fortress at level 1. DS was a little weak as published, but not extraordinarily so; moving its signature ability down 5 character levels is obscene. I nerfed the stance from DD to make it available more often (DS mechanic), but moving it down 2 more levels is still too good.
What exactly are you referring to?

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-20, 09:42 PM
I'm referring to reducing the BAB requirement to +5. It makes the class enterable 5 levels earlier than Deepstone Sentinel, but gives (as you have it) that class' signature ability immediately. The bit about moving defensive stance down refers to the fact that normally Dwarven Defender requires BAB +7, so this (admittedly nerfed in some respects) Defensive Stance, which has lost all its drawbacks (allows limited movement, usable at will, not winded/fatigued after), is now available 2 levels earlier than in core. Granted, DD was a fairly weak PrC (especially requiring you to burn 2 feats to enter), but these abilities are far stronger than much of what is available to the average 6th-level character (3rd level spells/maneuvers/powers/stances etc).

Your estimate of +15 AC is based on an assumed CON of 30, but I take your point.

How about something simpler, gained at second level? (This is based on my progression, not your suggested one.)

Overbearing Protector (Ex): When an enemy attacks an ally or targets him with an offensive spell that does not also target you, you may, as an immediate action, make a charge attack on that enemy that deals an extra 2d6 points of damage. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity, and it does not end your defensive stance (though it does negate the Mountain Fortress Stance ability gained at third level). This ability must be recharged as a martial maneuver, but does not count as a readied maneuver. You may only use this ability while in your defensive stance.

PinkysBrain
2010-03-20, 09:58 PM
It lacks a fluff explanation of how he can move so quickly (which the mountain fortress provides).

I see it as a class defining ability though ... without it you're just a good old dwarven doorstop, with it you are a defender. Which is why I wouldn't really like it requiring a full recharge. Something which is generally only available in one round in an encounter doesn't really make much impact. Requiring a swift action to get back in stance seems plenty to me. You can't even do this on the round immediately after you charge, because you took an immediate action already, it's once ever 2 rounds at most using 2 swift actions each time. Expensive enough IMO.

I chose Charging Minotaur so it can't interact with pounce (should it be available) and because I thought pushing the enemy back fits the theme better than just hitting him.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-21, 04:27 PM
It lacks a fluff explanation of how he can move so quickly (which the mountain fortress provides).
You are correct. It certainly does, just like defensive stance, damage reduction, and many other abilities across the d20 system. I've got a basic explanation (below), but mostly this is about the crunch. I want to balance this before fluffing it out.

I have absolutely no inclination to bring MFS down from its current level (4), though I mentioned that Overbearing Protector interacts with it once gained in much the way you're suggesting. Essentially, the mechanic is that the defender can put on a burst of speed occasionally to protect a friend in danger, but the rarity of its use ensures that this class doesn't become mobility-based.

I'd be fine with using bull rush; it does fit better flavor-wise. I'll add a+4 bonus to CMB for the attempt (no AoO), and 2d6+Str damage. It's mechanically almost identical to the maneuver, but doesn't require you to have it (freeing you to retrain it when this ability becomes available). I personally want to keep the recharge because I don't want this to be available often; once every 3-5 rounds is plenty (keeps the class from becoming much more mobile). I foresee most martial characters recharging at least once per encounter to reuse their best maneuvers.

EDIT: Also, I don't want to keep the bit from Charging Minotaur that says you don't have to follow an enemy when you push them back. You're getting between them and your ally; you need to stay next to them to block their path.

DragoonWraith
2010-03-22, 10:29 PM
Skills (2+Int modifier per level): Acrobatics, Craft, Intimidate, Perception
I know this is Pathfinder and there are fewer skills, but this is a joke. Four class skills? Seriously?

Also, despite precedent, the only class that deserves 2+Int skill points is the Wizard. If you're not an Int-based full-caster with a very good spell list, you deserve at least 4. Especially since you can't be human to get 3+Int.

My opinion, of course, is contrary to other martial classes in the game (but not in Tome of Battle), so take that with a grain of salt.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A defender is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with all types of armor and shields.
It's fairly rare for PrCs to give proficiencies, and almost anyone who enters will already have these. I just don't see the point in breaking that precedent here.


Maneuvers and Stances: At each odd-numbered level, you gain a new maneuver known from the Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, or Stone Dragon disciplines. You must meet a maneuver's prerequisites to learn it. You add your full defender level to your initiator level to determine total initiator level. Every third level, you can ready one more maneuver per encounter. Every fourth level, you learn a new stance.
A bit better than average - most 10 level PrCs get 5 known, 3 readied, and 1 stance, or 5 known, 2 readied, and 2 stances. You have one more readied maneuver or stance in there compared to the Tome of Battle PrCs. Not the end of the world, certainly, but worth mentioning.


AC Bonus (Ex): The defender receives a dodge bonus to AC that starts at +1 at first level, increasing by 1 every three levels thereafter.
Why on earth is this a Dodge bonus? That just doesn't make sense; he's supposed to soak damage, not avoid it. Make it Natural Armor, so it stacks with Armor, but at least makes sense.

Also, that's a lot of AC, as has been mentioned. Some DR and/or Fortification would be more fitting, I think.


Defensive Stance (Ex): A defender in a Stone Dragon stance can forgo its effects as a swift action to enter a defensive stance that grants him +2 to Constitution, a +1 bonus on all saves, and a +2 dodge bonus to AC. While in this stance, he cannot move more than 5' in a round without losing the benefits of the stance.
At 5th level, he gains +2 to Strength, +4 to Constitution, +2 to all saves, and a +4 dodge bonus to AC. This replaces its former benefits.
At 9th level, he gains +2 to to Strength, +4 to Constitution, +4 to all saves, a +6 dodge bonus to AC, and a +2 bonus to his Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD). This replaces its former benefits.
OK, I dislike this wording in Tome of Battle - why can't you just assume the PrC stances immediately, but have to stop first in some other stance? That's dumb, and it really hurts this stance, since it means you cannot move, and use your swift action to return to the stance.

Other than that... More Dodge bonuses??


Overbearing Protector (Ex): You can make an extraordinary effort to defend an ally in danger. When an enemy attacks an ally or targets him with an offensive spell that does not also target you, you may, as an immediate action, make a bull rush attempt as part of a charge at that enemy. You gain a +4 morale bonus to your CMB for this attempt, which (if successful) deals damage equal to 2d6 + your Strength modifier. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity, and it does not end your defensive stance (though it does negate the Mountain Fortress Stance ability gained at third level). This ability must be recharged as a martial maneuver, but does not count as a readied maneuver. You may only use this ability while in your defensive stance.
No idea how CMB works and don't really care to learn. Can't comment on that.

I do like the charging dwarf thing, though, that works.


When you learn Mountain Fortress Stance, using this ability causes all creatures within the difficult terrain the stance creates to make a DC 15 Acrobatics check to avoid falling prone (to which stability bonuses do not apply) as you charge down the hill.
Uh... unless Pathfinder has changed difficult terrain massively, that's a second effect on top of the difficult terrain. Your wording it confusing on that point, though - it implies that this effect is normal for difficult terrain.


Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a defender can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a defender already has uncanny dodge from a different class he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.
Uhm. Again, this... doesn't really seem to fit. Why not Mettle instead?


[/b]Damage Reduction (Ex):[/b] A defender has damage reduction equal to 1/2 his class level, rounded down (1/- at level 2, 2/- at level 4, etc.).
Oh, here's the DR. OK. Seems solid.


Thick-Skinned (Ex): A defender can apply 1/2 his Constitution modifier as a bonus to AC (to a maximum of 1/2 his class level).
Yeah, with this, I really don't feel like Uncanny Dodge is necessary. Maybe even make it the full Con bonus and ditch some of the Dodge bonuses, since it would make an awful lot more sense.


Mountain Fortress Stance (Su): In your defensive stance, you can choose to create a fortress of earth or stone (provided you are standing on an earth or stone surface, or 1' above one). The square(s) you occupy forms a pillar of stone 5 feet tall, and all adjacent squares become difficult terrain (DC 10 Acrobatics check to enter or leave without falling prone). The pillar moves with you if you take a 5' step, but any more movement causes it to crumble.
Same difficult terrain issue as before, but this is pretty cool.


Crashing Mountain Juggernaut (Su): As a full-round action, you can leave your Mountain Fortress Stance (losing all benefits thereof without regaining those of the Stone Dragon stance you previously occupied), charging down the crumbling hill to strike your foes. All creatures in the difficult terrain created by your stance must make a DC 15 Acrobatics check or fall prone (Stability bonus does not apply). You make a charge attack that deals an extra 2d6 damage as you rush down the mountain to crush a nearby enemy.
You may not initiate your defensive stance on the same turn you use this ability.
OK, I'll assume this is gone. I like the image, but not the mechanics, so... let's see what you've replaced it with.


Stone Curse (Su): As an immediate action, you can freeze an opponent you have hit with a melee attack in his tracks, weighing his limbs down like stones. He must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Str modifier) or have his speed for all modes of movement except flight drop to 0 for 1 round. This ability must be used after successfully attacking, but before rolling damage.
Why on earth are you letting them keep Flight? Just make this require that the Defender be on the ground (so no dropping things out of mid-air to a terrible death), or something.


Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 7th level, a defender can no longer be flanked. This defense denies rogues the ability to use flank attacks to sneak attack the defender. The exception to this defense is that a rogue at least four levels higher than the defender can flank him (and thus sneak attack him). If a character gains uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge, and the levels from those classes stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
OK, this benefit makes sense (unlike the normal Uncanny Dodge), but you could probably refluff it or something.


Indomitable Redoubt (Ex): Starting at 8th level, you can benefit from one additional Stone Dragon stance while in your defensive stance.
Additional?


Awaken the Stone Dragon (Su): At 10th level, you can cause an earthquake once per encounter as a swift action. All enemies in a 60-foot radius must make successful Reflex saves (DC 10 + 1/2 character level + Str modifier) or take 12d6 points of damage and fall prone. A save allows for half damage, and you remain standing. Improved stability does not provide a bonus on this save.
This looks pretty cool, I like this.


Anyway, you've done a good job with the stone/earth theme, it works well for Dwarves. You've avoided most of the problems with the Dwarven Defender (though see the note about the "from a Stone Dragon stance" wording on the Defensive Stance), given him some unique and cool features, and allowed him to do the bodyguard schtick much better.

But why all the dodge bonuses? That just bewilders me. Also, I feel like a class like this should have some ability to force enemies to attack him. As in, they come to him and attack, so he doesn't have to move. See the Demented One's Army of One discipline for inspiration, perhaps. The Defensive Rebuke maneuver (Devoted Spirit) is also pretty solid for this.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-27, 12:54 PM
I know this is Pathfinder and there are fewer skills, but this is a joke. Four class skills? Seriously?

Also, despite precedent, the only class that deserves 2+Int skill points is the Wizard. If you're not an Int-based full-caster with a very good spell list, you deserve at least 4. Especially since you can't be human to get 3+Int.

My opinion, of course, is contrary to other martial classes in the game (but not in Tome of Battle), so take that with a grain of salt.
I'm seriously considering it, and I added two Knowledge skills. I'll look at Crusader and Warblade for skill list ideas.


It's fairly rare for PrCs to give proficiencies, and almost anyone who enters will already have these. I just don't see the point in breaking that precedent here.
Copied from Dwarven Defender; I'd like to make this feasible for warblades without costing more feats, but they can just dip fighter or something. Cut.


A bit better than average - most 10 level PrCs get 5 known, 3 readied, and 1 stance, or 5 known, 2 readied, and 2 stances. You have one more readied maneuver or stance in there compared to the Tome of Battle PrCs. Not the end of the world, certainly, but worth mentioning.
Changed stances to 1 at 5th level.


Why on earth is this a Dodge bonus? That just doesn't make sense; he's supposed to soak damage, not avoid it. Make it Natural Armor, so it stacks with Armor, but at least makes sense.

Also, that's a lot of AC, as has been mentioned. Some DR and/or Fortification would be more fitting, I think.
I changed some of the AC abilites; more later on that.


OK, I dislike this wording in Tome of Battle - why can't you just assume the PrC stances immediately, but have to stop first in some other stance? That's dumb, and it really hurts this stance, since it means you cannot move, and use your swift action to return to the stance.

Other than that... More Dodge bonuses??
Changed, and the AC is now a competence bonus (for lack of a better type; I toyed with morale but I'm not sold on it).


No idea how CMB works and don't really care to learn. Can't comment on that.

I do like the charging dwarf thing, though, that works.
CMB is the bull rush strength check.


Uh... unless Pathfinder has changed difficult terrain massively, that's a second effect on top of the difficult terrain. Your wording it confusing on that point, though - it implies that this effect is normal for difficult terrain.
You read it right; it's taken right from the DS ability. I'll reword it to make it clear that it's an additional effect.


Uhm. Again, this... doesn't really seem to fit. Why not Mettle instead?
Changed.


Yeah, with this, I really don't feel like Uncanny Dodge is necessary. Maybe even make it the full Con bonus and ditch some of the Dodge bonuses, since it would make an awful lot more sense.
Full CON would make this very, very nasty if you've got a CON-boosting item. I made it full, limited to (1/2 level) + 1. It's now a natural armor bonus, but worded to be a toughening of your skin that actually changes your natural armor (not an enhancement bonus).


Why on earth are you letting them keep Flight? Just make this require that the Defender be on the ground (so no dropping things out of mid-air to a terrible death), or something.
Copied from DS, but I see your point. Changed.


OK, this benefit makes sense (unlike the normal Uncanny Dodge), but you could probably refluff it or something.
I've replaced it with Improved Mettle (or is that not actually ever granted? I don't recall).


Anyway, you've done a good job with the stone/earth theme, it works well for Dwarves. You've avoided most of the problems with the Dwarven Defender (though see the note about the "from a Stone Dragon stance" wording on the Defensive Stance), given him some unique and cool features, and allowed him to do the bodyguard schtick much better.

But why all the dodge bonuses? That just bewilders me. Also, I feel like a class like this should have some ability to force enemies to attack him. As in, they come to him and attack, so he doesn't have to move. See the Demented One's Army of One discipline for inspiration, perhaps. The Defensive Rebuke maneuver (Devoted Spirit) is also pretty solid for this.
I though about giving him something like a Knight's Test of Mettle, but decided against it. Partly, I feel it doesn't quite fit with the theme (although it could work if it was limited to someone attacking an ally). I also didn't want to poach mechanics from a third class. He has access to Devoted Spirit, so that maneuver is a solid choice. The Overbearing Protector ability also helps with this, in that if an enemy ignores him, he can shove them away from his friend and pound on them even if they're across the battlefield.

I really want to give them Fortification (25% per 3 levels?), especially without the dodge bonus, but I'm not sure of where to squeeze it in.

Thank you for your critique; I've fixed what you mentioned, including the dodge bonuses (please let me know if you think the modifications are appropriate).

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-31, 11:21 AM
What do you think should be the requirements for this? I'm loath to require Shards of Granite, as the dwarven waraxe seems like the obvious (fluff and crunch) choice of weapon for a defender and it doesn't work with that feat's abilities. I like how the mechanics are working out (though I want to work in Fortification somewhere), but I need more concrete entry requirements.

Stone Power (ToB)/Power Attack - both nerfed in PF heavily, SP in particular not worth taking
Dodge - doesn't fit the style (which is why the dodge bonuses are gone
Toughness - useless feat tax, even in PF
Endurance - you're gonna be wearing heavy armor, so this doesn't even let you wear it to bed
Shards of Granite (ToB) - not usable with waraxes, and duplicates SD maneuvers without the bonus damage. Bad, by my reckoning.
Shield Specialization (PHII) - another reason to take this feat, and flavorful besides... prereq for Shield Ward (shield bonus to touch AC), and fits with the defending concept
Stand Still (XPH) - I'm grasping at straws now; this makes some sense for flavor (keep enemies from running away or running past you in defensive stance), but only a little.
Ideas?

Corporate M
2010-03-31, 08:05 PM
To be honest, if I was going to use your idea. I may as well ask the DM if I could play a whirling frenzy barbarian, and just give him manuever progressions.

Thereby making this a base class. It would probably going over better as barbarian+slower manuever progression then Tome of Battle classes would move into tier 3 category, and not look as intimidating as insane AC bonuses.

I'm not saying its bad. But homebrew tends to be looked at with suspicion in any D&D game. So when you come at them with AC bonuses, they're going to probably say no.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-03-31, 10:24 PM
Well, I appreciate your concern, but I'm currently trying to make a PrC. I've talked to my DM, and sent him a link to this thread; he knows what I'm doing. If you would like to help critique this class to make it a decent piece of homebrew material, you are more than welcome.

(Frankly, the Whirling Frenzy barbarian variant is nothing like this. I'm not looking at mechanics (in which I admit the frenzy looks a bit like Defensive Stance, with an AC bonus and strength boost) but at flavor - this is a dwarf who gets his strength from standing still; what the dwarven defender should have been, perhaps. It's not some crazy angry guy spinning around the battlefield dodging your attacks.)

I suppose my conclusion would be to reiterate that I actually do appreciate your concern, despite the sarcasm in the above paragraph, but to say that I do know what I'm doing to some extent and to request your assistance in making something of this concept.

Agi Hammerthief
2010-03-31, 10:52 PM
Pathfinder's prestige classs saves start at +1 if they are good, not at +2
+1 +1 +2 +2 +3 etc for best saves
+0 +1 +1 +1 +2 etc for worst saves

3.75 that is

EpicEvokerElf
2010-04-02, 06:21 PM
Oops; thanks for catching that. I never actually checked a PF PrC for the model.

Requirements...?

Cimeler
2010-04-07, 03:35 PM
Earth Sense

Thanks to you I have started a similar class but thinking in a battlefield controller more than a defender. I'm using dragon tooth to deliver the Stone Dragon Strikes and give abilities like tremorsense and burrow speed.

:)

EpicEvokerElf
2010-04-07, 10:07 PM
Well, I'm glad I could be of service. Regarding Earth Sense, I like it as a flavor element, but I can't see any noncaster actually taking it - it just doesn't offer anything particularly useful in exchange for a precious feat. Casters looking for Earth Spell cheese, yes; melee fighter, no way (unless Earth Adept and Earth Master were fixed to not suck - new project?).

EpicEvokerElf
2010-04-19, 10:44 PM
Now requires Concentration 7 ranks (equivalent of 10 in 3.5), Shield Focus (Shield Specialization in 3.5), and Combat Expertise. I'm trying to encourage battlefield control and strategy to some extent, rather than Leap Attack/Shock Trooper THOG SMASH playing.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-04-21, 11:42 PM
Ugh, forgot that Concentration doesn't exist in PF, nor does Balance. Problems...