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Sinfire Titan
2010-03-20, 06:35 PM
These feats are designed to be used with my Weapons Fix. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7145.0)


Base Feats Explanation
Base Feats
In addition to the normal combat options, these feats can be used without actually having the feat. These feats will list the rules for doing so after the Special section of the feat itself. Doing this is rather risky; any attempt to use a Base Feat without the actual feat provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the feat (but only the target). If no target is specified, you must choose an enemy who currently threatens you to use the Base featís effect.

Power Attack Line
Power Attack
Prerequisites: Str 13, Con 13
Benefit: You may add your Constitution modifier to melee damage rolls with One Handed or Two Handed melee weapons.
Special: If your type is Undead or Construct (and you do not have the Living Construct subtype), you may substitute your Charisma score for your Constitution score.
Base: Using this feat applies a penalty to your attack rolls equal to half of the extra damage. Using this Base feat does not provoke an attack of opportunity.


Cleave
Prerequisite: Power Attack
Benefit: Any weapon you wield gains the Cleaving special ability (see Weapon Fix) in addition to its other abilities. If the weapon all ready has the ability, you gain no additional benefits when using it.

[b]Great Cleave
Prerequisite: Cleave, Power Attack
Benefit: You no longer need to spend an Immediate action to take the extra attack granted by the Cleaving ability. You may now use that ability multiple times each round, but only once per critical hit scored.

Improved Bull Rush
Prerequisite: Power Attack
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity for initiating a Bull Rush. You receive a bonus to all Bull Rush attempts equal to 2+your Constitution modifier.
Special: If you have the Dungeoncrasher alternate class feature, the creature you Bull Rush provokes an attack of opportunity from your allies if your Bull Rush attempt moves the enemy through an allyís melee reach.
Base: Using this feat functions as the normal Bull Rush attempt, as outlined in the Playerís Handbook.


Notes: Shock Trooper will be getting redesigned. Leap Attack and Battle Leap are going to become Skill Tricks (Jump), and other PA-based abilities are going to be altered to be compatible these changes.

I'm not trying to Nerf Chargers, so the damage output is going to be similar. The increased MAD is a side-effect of removing the penalty to attack rolls. The loss of the 50% extra damage for using a 2-Handed weapon is to encourage One-Handers, but 2-Handers still get 1.5*Str to damage (not much consolation, I know).

Combat Expertise Line
Combat Expertise
Prerequisite: Int 13, proficient with Light Steel Shields
Benefit: When wearing a shield, you may take the Fighting Defensively action at no penalty to your offensive capabilities. Additionally, the bonus to AC from using that action increase to 2+your Int modifier. Additionally, you may take the Fighting Defensively action as part of the Attack action or Full Attack action, allowing you to take your full attack unhindered.
Normal: Using a shield does not negate the penalties imposed by the Fighting Defensively action. The bonus to AC from the Fighting Defensively action is only +2.
Special: You must be holding the shield in hand or have it attached to your body in some way (shield gauntlet or buckler). Dancing Shields cannot be used with this feat unless you forgo the enhancementís ability.

Improved Combat Expertise
Prerequisite: Combat Expertise
Benefit: While wearing a shield, you may take the Full Attack action and declare you are taking the Total Defense action simultaneously. At any point during this round, you may take an Immediate action to intercept an opponent's attack with your shield, granting you a Deflection bonus to AC equal to 4+your Int modifier against that attack.
This feat's benefits and requirements replace the Total Defense action, including the penalties associated with that action (allowing you to make attacks of opportunity when using the Total Defense action). You still cannot combine the Total Defense action with the Fighting Defensively action.
Normal: Total Defense is a standard action that grants a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You canít make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.
Special: As with Combat Expertise, you must be holding the shield to use this feat.

Improved Disarm [Base]
Prerequisite: Combat Expertise
Benefit: You receive a bonus to the opposed attack roll for Disarm attempts equal to 2+your Int modifier (minimum +2 bonus to Disarm attempts). You no longer provoke an attack of opportunity for making a Disarm attempt, nor can your opponent Disarm you if you would fail the attempt.
Shields you wield as weapons gain the Disarming ability (see Weapons Fix). If you successfully disarm someone using such a shield, you may roll damage against them as though you had attacked them normally.
Base: Using this feat functions as the normal Disarm attempt, as outlined in the Playerís Handbook. No special action is needed, you merely need to replace one of your attacks with a Disarm attempt (taking the attack may require an action).

Improved Trip [Base]
Prerequisite: Combat Expertise
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you make a trip attempt while unarmed. You also receive a bonus on the opposed Strength check equal to 2+your Int modifier (minimum +2 bonus to the opposed Strength check). If you successfully trip the opponent, you may roll damage as though you had struck them normally instead of tripping them.
Base: Using this feat functions as the normal Trip attempt, as outlined in the Playerís Handbook. No special action is needed, you merely need to replace one of your attacks with a Trip attempt (taking the attack may require an action).

Improved Feint
Prerequisite: Combat Expertise
Benefit: Feinting in combat is a Swift action, and the target adds only half of his Base Attack Bonus to his Sense Motive check to the opposed roll. If your Bluff check result exceeds the targetís Sense Motive result by 5 or more, they are denied their Dexterity to their Armor Class until the end of your current turn, allowing you to attack their Flat Footed AC with all attacks you make with your next full attack action.
Normal: Feinting in combat is a standard action, and the opponent is denied their Dexterity to AC against your next attack only.


The change to Improved Trip/Disarm means MAD is coming into play again, but at least it rewards you for it instead of just sucking up PB. The good news is that you no longer need another attack roll when tripping, making the last Iterative attack somewhat useful.

Improved Feint is now useful.

Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike
Combat Reflexes
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You may make a number of attacks of opportunity equal to 1+your Dexterity modifier. Additionally, you may take attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

Karmic Strike
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes
Benefit: At will, as part of an Attack action or Full Attack action, you may voluntarily deny yourself your Dexterity modifier to your armor class. If you do, any enemies within your melee reach who successfully hits you with a melee attack or a melee touch attack provokes an attack of opportunity.
Special: If you have the Combat Expertise feat and are wielding a shield, or if you have the Dodge feat and have not declared a target for that feat, you instead take a penalty to your armor class equal to half of your Dexterity modifier (allowing you to avoid granting enemies Sneak Attack against you). If you have both, you take no penalty to your armor class and this featís benefits are always active.


No change to Combat Reflexes, but Karmic Strike was given an overhaul.

Dodge line (not the car)
Dodge
Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: As an immediate action, select an opponent currently threatening you in melee. Against this opponent, you receive a Dodge bonus to Armor Class equal to 1+Your Dex modifier. This bonus lasts until you take another immediate action to reassign it.
Special: If you are not currently threatened in melee, you receive a constant +1 Dodge bonus to Armor class.

Mobility
Prerequisite: Dodge
Benefit: As long as you have declared a target for your Dodge feat, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from that creature for taking actions. If it has a feat or ability that grants it an attack of opportunity in a situation where it normally would not receive one (for example, a Fighter with the Karmic Strike feat), that feat overrides this benefit.
Special: You receive a +4 Dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity, even ones that Mobilityís normal benefit wouldn't protect you from.

Spring Attack [Base]
Prerequisite: Dodge, Base Attack Bonus +2.
Benefit: At will, as a Standard action, you may move up to your speed. At any point during this movement, you may take a Move action to make a melee attack at your highest Base Attack Bonus (plus any modifiers that would normally apply). This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the creature you attack (if you attack a creature), unless another ability specifies otherwise (see Mobility, above).
Special: If your Base Attack Bonus is +6, you may make a second attack with the same Move action at your second iterative attack bonus. If your Base Attack Bonus is +11, you can make a third attack with the same Move action at your third iterative attack bonus.


Spring Attack is now viable from 1st level onward. Mobility is now semi-useful, and Dodge doesn't suck as much.

Improved Init
Improved Initiative
Prerequisite: None
Benefit: When rolling initative, you may choose to roll 2d6+8 instead of 1d20. You still add other bonuses (such as your Dexterity modifier) to this roll; the 2d6+8 merely replaces your 1d20 for the purpose of determining your initiative count.


Biggest change to any of the feats I made. It still helps Init, but by making it less random and more likely to provide a higher Init roll.

Improved Unarmed Strike line
[b]Improved Unarmed Strike
Prerequisite: None
Benefit: You are considered armed while using your Unarmed Strike natural weapon, thus you do not provoke attacks of opportunity for attacking with your Unarmed Strikes and can take attacks of opportunity with your Unarmed Strike. You can change between Lethal and Nonlethal damage with your Unarmed Strikes at will at no penalty. Finally, your Unarmed Strike damage improves as you gain levels:
1st-3rd: 1d4
4th-7th: 1d6
8th-11th: 1d8
12th-15th: 1d10
16th-19th: 2d6
20th: 2d8
Special: Monks receive this feat as a bonus feat at 1st level, but they use their own progression (see the Monk class in the PHB for details on a Monkís Unarmed Strike class feature).

Deflect Arrows
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: You must have at least one free hand to use this feat. Once per round, when you would be targeted by a ranged attack (but not ranged touch attacks) from a creature whoís size category is within one step of your own (for example, a Medium character could deflect an arrow fired by a Halfling or a rock thrown by a Hill Giant), you may make an opposed attack roll using your highest iterative Unarmed Strike attack bonus. If you succeed, the ranged attack misses you.
Base: Using this feat as a Base feat requires an Immediate action. The opposed roll is a Reflex save, not an attack roll.

Improved Grapple [Base]
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity for initiating a grapple. You are considered either one size category larger or smaller for the purposes of determining what you can grapple and what can grapple you. In addition, you gain a bonus to all Grapple checks equal to 2+1/2 your Base Attack Bonus.
Base: Using this feat functions as the normal Grapple attempt, as outlined in the Playerís Handbook.

Stunning Fist
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Wis 13, Base Attack Bonus +2
Benefit: Before making an Unarmed Strike attack, you may declare that attack to be a Stunning attack. If you hit, the target must make a Fortitude save or be Stunned in addition to taking the damage from the Unarmed Strike. The save DC is 10+1/2 your Character Level+your Wisdom modifier. You may use this feat a number of times per day equal to your Base Attack Bonus plus your Wisdom modifier.
Special: A 1st level Monk may select this feat as a bonus feat without meeting the Base Attack Bonus or Wisdom requirements. If you have this feat and have levels in Monk, add your Monk class level to the number of Stunning attempts/day you may make with this feat.


Superior Unarmed Strike is going to become a TWFing variant for Unarmed Strikes (to end those arguments about TWFing), as I mentioned in the Weapons Redesign thread. Snap Kick is going to become a Skill Trick. Other Stunning Fist feats are going to be getting overhauled.

MAD Reducers
Great Fortitude
Prerequisite: None
Benefit: You gain a +3 competence bonus to Fortitude saves. Once per encounter, you may spend an immediate action to reroll a failed Fortitude save, and take the better result.

[b]Reflexive Absorption
Prerequisite: Great Fortitude, Dex 13
Benefit: You may substitute your Dexterity modifier for your Constitution modifier on Fortitude saving throws. You do not automatically fail a Reflex save on a roll of a natural 1 (though you may still fail the saving throw if your roll is not high enough).

Lightning Reflexes
Prerequisite: None
Benefit: You gain a +3 competence bonus to Reflex saving throws. Once per encounter, you may spend an immediate action to reroll a failed Reflex save, and take the better result.

Perceptive Evasion
Prerequisite: Lightning Reflexes, Wis 13
Benefit: You may substitute your Wisdom modifier for your Dexterity modifier on Reflex saving throws. You do not automatically fail a Will save on a roll of a natural 1 (though you may still fail the saving throw if your roll is not high enough).

Iron Will
Prerequisite: None
Benefit: You gain a +3 competence bonus to Will saving throws. Once per encounter, you may spend an immediate action to reroll a failed Will save, and take the better result.

Steadfast Determination
Prerequisite: Iron Will, Con 13
Benefit: You may substitute your Constitution modifier for your Wisdom modifier on Will saving throws. You do not automatically fail a Fortitude save on a roll of a natural 1 (though you may still fail the saving throw if your roll is not high enough).

Weapon Finesse [Base]
Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: When making a melee attack with a Light weapon or a weapon with the Finesse ability, you may substitute your Dexterity modifier for your Strength modifier on the attack rolls and damage rolls.
Base: You may opt to use your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier on melee attack rolls made with a Light, Simple weapon you are proficient with. Doing so does not provoke an attack of opportunity.


I know the Save Boosters somewhat break Verisimilitude, but I don't care. Variants of the O. Hole are going to be made, so Steadfast Determination isn't going to be the best by default (well, at least not in terms of cost).

Weapon Finesse works now.

Eldan
2010-03-20, 08:13 PM
Okay. I agree with most of these, but I still have to ask: why constitution on power attack? I don't really see the connection.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-20, 08:33 PM
Okay. I agree with most of these, but I still have to ask: why constitution on power attack? I don't really see the connection.

The flavor behind it is that you are not using your arms to swing the weapon, but your entire body. As you do, you shift your weight so that you add more mass to the attack.

Mechanically, I wanted a scaling bonus that didn't suck like 4E's, and was something every Front-Liner would have. Con was the default. Overall, the damage it dishes out is still going to be +10 or so, then you add in multipliers like Battle Leap and such. The end result is similar to a normal Charger build, the only tradeoff is one of their easiest multipliers (1.5 Power Attack with two-handers).

It also makes Barbarian dips much more useful. Now people have an extra incentive to Rage.

PirateMonk
2010-03-20, 09:02 PM
The second part of Iron Will looks like it has a copypasta error. Other than that, it seems fine.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-20, 09:31 PM
The second part of Iron Will looks like it has a copypasta error. Other than that, it seems fine.

Thank you for catching that.

SSGoW
2010-03-21, 01:57 PM
Great Idea :D

I was actually thinking of giving the fighter the ability to do something like this (in addition to his fighter feats) but these work better than what i was thinking :)

Eldan
2010-03-21, 02:00 PM
Hmm. Mobility is strangely worded, to me: why is the movement a standard action, but the attack a move action, and not the other way round? Is there some benefit to doing it like this I'm not seeing? One aspect I see is that this way, maneuvers aren't really possible, is that the intention?

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-21, 09:58 PM
Hmm. Mobility is strangely worded, to me: why is the movement a standard action, but the attack a move action, and not the other way round? Is there some benefit to doing it like this I'm not seeing? One aspect I see is that this way, maneuvers aren't really possible, is that the intention?

You mean Spring Attack? The idea is that you aren't taking the attack properly, focusing more on avoiding being attacked while moving. Your Movement allows you to take the attacks faster. Originally, I was going to make the Movement a Standard and the Attack a Swift, then I realized that this makes Mobility itself harder to use. I changed the actions up so that Scouts can use Spring Attack from levels 1-3 by taking Dodge+Mobility, and then taking Spring Attack at 3rd (negating the need for Mobility, but still giving them the feat if they can't use Spring Attack for some reason).

Edit: Yeah, preventing maneuver use is something that people shouldn't worry about. Desert Wind is the style for that kind of thing, so there's no good reason Spring Attack should work with something meant to replicate it while being slightly superior.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-03-22, 12:11 PM
Are these for 3.5 or 4E?

Scow2
2010-03-22, 12:26 PM
I disagree with your analysis of Combat Expertise... The original flavor of the feat is it allows you to use your weapon defensively, which translates to Parrying. Now... you've made it a shield-based ability? Why?

Considering the Combat Expertise-dependent feats are all based on fancy swordplay: Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Feint, the Dervish PrC (which explicitly excludes shield use)... making Expertise require a shield doesn't sit well with me. I prefer the original Combat Expertise.

Spiryt
2010-03-22, 01:06 PM
The flavor behind it is that you are not using your arms to swing the weapon, but your entire body. As you do, you shift your weight so that you add more mass to the attack.


Well, it still doesn't make much sense.

Aside from from details like that attack with whole body doesn't always have to be powerful and blah blah...

Shifting your weight so you add more mass to attack/pull/push/lift is precisely what strength is about.

You have muscles of given weight, and given efficiency, dynamics allowing them to move with the strike with most violent and quick way, just striking hard.

Constitution, so your endurance, health, stamina doesn't have much to do, neither it's anywhere stated (AFAIK) that Con have anything to do with your build or power.

In fact it would be rather nonsensical, seeing as gnomes have high C, and they're are one of the very small dudes, so where's the weight to put into the strike?

I realize that D&D stats are very simple, and thus highly abstract, but still Constitution doesn't fit here.

If you don't want Strength, Dexterity actually have some sense, representing your coordination, quickness, acceleration, and thus ability to strike really hard. Should be limited by strength though, just to ensure that super dexterous dude with very normal strength and size couldn't crush walls.

Scow2
2010-03-22, 01:59 PM
How about this suggestion for Mobility, and bringing it in line with the original definition as well:

Mobility
Benefit: You can take a full round action to both move your base speed and take a Full Attack option. Multiple attacks granted by a full attack can be made at any point during the movement, as long as you take a five foot step between each one. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity from your target before or after each attack.


This clarifies the wording, eliminates potential abuse of having a Full Attack fit into the space of a Move Action, and gives the effect you want.

The five-foot step clause prevents extremely fast characters from getting full attacks off with impunity by moving half their base speed, getting off a full attack, then using the other half to get to a safe distance or position away. While hit-and-run tactics shouldn't be made impossible, they should be limited to a single attack at their highest attack bonus without further feats.

I don't see what's wrong with the standard Power Attack and Combat Expertise feats... your variations nerf them to worthlessness. To continue that, all your stat-based variations are worse than default.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-22, 05:33 PM
Are these for 3.5 or 4E?

3.5.


I disagree with your analysis of Combat Expertise... The original flavor of the feat is it allows you to use your weapon defensively, which translates to Parrying. Now... you've made it a shield-based ability? Why?

Considering the Combat Expertise-dependent feats are all based on fancy swordplay: Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Feint, the Dervish PrC (which explicitly excludes shield use)... making Expertise require a shield doesn't sit well with me. I prefer the original Combat Expertise.

And I realized Sword&Board needed some real feats to help it out (shields are pathetically underpowered in 3.5). Yes, it goes against the original intent, but it was something I thought needed to be done. It gives the feat an active feel to it, making a mini-Parry mechanic while not consuming time or requiring too many mechanics to use.

I should change the wording to including weapons with the Defensive ability though, as they were intended to be used with it.


Shifting your weight so you add more mass to attack/pull/push/lift is precisely what strength is about.

Strength is hitting things hard, not moving so the attack hits harder.


You have muscles of given weight, and given efficiency, dynamics allowing them to move with the strike with most violent and quick way, just striking hard.

Yes, but that normally involves using leverage coupled with your physical strength, you don't actually put your body behind the attacks made with a weapon.


Constitution, so your endurance, health, stamina doesn't have much to do, neither it's anywhere stated (AFAIK) that Con have anything to do with your build or power.

WotC has no idea what the stats stand for anyway.


If you don't want Strength, Dexterity actually have some sense, representing your coordination, quickness, acceleration, and thus ability to strike really hard. Should be limited by strength though, just to ensure that super dexterous dude with very normal strength and size couldn't crush walls.

Mechanically, Dex is all ready being used (Weapon Finesse). Con is the only physical stat that isn't currently tied to your actions, which is why I went with it.


Mobility
Benefit: You can take a full round action to both move your base speed and take a Full Attack option. Multiple attacks granted by a full attack can be made at any point during the movement, as long as you take a five foot step between each one. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity from your target before or after each attack.

The five-foot step clause prevents extremely fast characters from getting full attacks off with impunity by moving half their base speed, getting off a full attack, then using the other half to get to a safe distance or position away. While hit-and-run tactics shouldn't be made impossible, they should be limited to a single attack at their highest attack bonus without further feats.


Again, wrong feat.

That same clause is also a hindrance for every melee character in case Difficult Terrain pops up, or if the enemy is more than 10ft. This is all ready a 2-feat investment, and, to top things off, it was all ready possible for archers to get a full attack while moving.

Hell, same with casters. They get their full spell off even if they move 10ft in a round, why the hell shouldn't melee combatants get the same thing as archers and casters?


FYI, they can't take more than one Full Attack with this feat using a Belt of Battle. Immediate actions can't interrupt your own actions, and the attacks are being taken during a Standard action.


Edit:

I don't see what's wrong with the standard Power Attack and Combat Expertise feats... your variations nerf them to worthlessness. To continue that, all your stat-based variations are worse than default.

Hold up, what?


No optimizer uses Combat Expertise. It's viewed as a worthless feat all ready because it requires you to lower your attack rolls.
People only ever Power Attack for 20 when they use the Shock Trooper feat. Even without that, the most people PA for during a normal encounter is 3-6 points. How in the world is giving them a flat +4-+13 bonus to damage rolls (that I have stated is going to be getting multipliers similar to Leap Attack/Battle Leap)?
Feats should not impose a penalty to a character just for using them. You don't see casters taking penalties from their own feats, why should a noncaster take penalties from their own feats?


In terms of damage output, Power Attack got a minor nerf receiving a bonus. That nerf cuts out approximately 5 damage (for now) in exchange for not needing to take a penalty to attack rolls. Combat Expertise has never been advocated by CO for being a good feat, it was advocated because it was a prereq for Improved Trip. No one actually used it to boost AC because AC was irrelevant. I removed the penalties for using the feat entirely, while making a minor Parrying mechanic.

How was this a bad thing?

Spiryt
2010-03-22, 05:58 PM
Strength is hitting things hard, not moving so the attack hits harder.


How do you exactly plan hitting anything hard without moving? :smallconfused:

Any attack is moving so the attack hits harder. No matter if you move only your arms, or hips too, or if you actually take a step(s) doing it, hitting things is a movement.

I really have small experience with, it but I don't really think that actually moving (in sense covering some distance, do I understand your post correctly?) is a way for strong strikes. Taking one step and placing your foot correctly is crucial, as every boxer or lumberjack will tell, but that doesn't have much to do with Con.



Yes, but that normally involves using leverage coupled with your physical strength, you don't actually put your body behind the attacks made with a weapon.

By usually, you mean when? I honestly don't think that any "standard" idea was that even very experienced fighter without PA just swing their weapons like wigs without putting any body behind it.



WotC has no idea what the stats stand for anyway.

Yes, but Con is used only for Concentration for example, not even for door breaking which suggest that it mainly represents your general pipes and stuff in your body, not any dynamic actions.


Mechanically, Dex is all ready being used (Weapon Finesse). Con is the only physical stat that isn't currently tied to your actions, which is why I went with it.


This is fine, in fact I once wrote a post why Con bonus to some weapon checks in 4ed is quite decent idea, I just think that tying it to Power Attack doesn't seem sensible idea.

In fact tying it to Combat Reflexes or Dodge may be much more interesting and non stereotypical, and make a whole lot of sense:

to be constantly in motion, so to not give any opportunities to be hit, or/and search openings at the same time requires quite a stomach.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-22, 06:59 PM
How do you exactly plan hitting anything hard without moving? :smallconfused:

Any attack is moving so the attack hits harder. No matter if you move only your arms, or hips too, or if you actually take a step(s) doing it, hitting things is a movement.

You misinterpreted that. I meant "without moving so your body mass is being added to the weapon's impact". Most people will swing a sword with their arms. A Fighter with my version of Power Attack will swing with his arms, and then immediately shift his weight so there is more impact behind the blade itself.



I really have small experience with, it but I don't really think that actually moving (in sense covering some distance, do I understand your post correctly?) is a way for strong strikes. Taking one step and placing your foot correctly is crucial, as every boxer or lumberjack will tell, but that doesn't have much to do with Con.

It's actually very tiring to move like that all the time. I've worn myself down just practicing that basic concept. If you don't move properly, the movement won't do anything to the attack.

The real problem is that DnD is over-simplified. In a real fight, you are using much more than just Strength to hit someone (at least if you are trained, and even if you aren't you still need to judge distance and such). Portraying this realistically would mean Fighters would need Str, Dex, Int, and Wis to attack (Int to figure out what type of blow is capable of ruining their guard, Wis to spot weak points in said guard, Dex to correct the attack and compensaite for their movements, Str for damage.


By usually, you mean when? I honestly don't think that any "standard" idea was that even very experienced fighter without PA just swing their weapons like wigs without putting any body behind it.

The way proper swordsman swings two-handed is he uses one of his hands as fulcrum, and the other to move the blade. This happens during a full swing. The idea of Power Attack is that you are doing that, but at the same time twisting your body to add another fulcrum point: Your back, hips, or even knees. It adds more leverage.

Yes, Dex makes sense here, but Dex is taken. I don't want to overlap them.

Yes, but Con is used only for Concentration for example, not even for door breaking which suggest that it mainly represents your general pipes and stuff in your body, not any dynamic actions.



This is fine, in fact I once wrote a post why Con bonus to some weapon checks in 4ed is quite decent idea, I just think that tying it to Power Attack doesn't seem sensible idea.

I didn't want to use the original version of Power Attack, since I know how it works and didn't like it. I also didn't want to do what Paizo and 4E did with the feat. In this way, my version scales as the character grows stronger, and he doesn't have to focus so heavily on it (Con is a stat everyone pumps, so it isn't uncommon to have a Con of 24 or so to couple with your 30-some odd Str).

Spiryt
2010-03-22, 07:29 PM
*Snip*

I could sum it up with "yes, you're right", "I know" , "not always". That's what I'm talking about. I say wrote that nobody who have at leat 2 levels of full BaB class swings only with arms.* You write how leverage works :smallconfused:

*aside from situations when such move could be useful.


I'm saying that:

A Fighter with my version of Power Attack will swing with his arms, and then immediately shift his weight so there is more impact behind the blade itself.

No one really need Strength or Con that's after all more than average to make proper hard strikes. Power attack can be fluffed as doing it really good, but also to the point of some overextension - thus penalties to attack.

And still, all this virtual fencing doesn't have much to do with Constitution as portrayed in 3.5

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-22, 07:37 PM
And still, all this virtual fencing doesn't have much to do with Constitution as portrayed in 3.5

It bugs me that one of the most important stats for a melee character is Con, and yet it is a passive stat. Dex is used for AoOs (Combat Reflexes), Ranged combat, Weapon Finesse, and saves. Str is used for melee attacks and special maneuvers. Con is used for two passive things for a noncaster: HP and a save (arguably the second most vital saving throw there is).


Mechanically, why shouldn't Con also be used actively during combat? I know the flavor makes no sense, but has that ever stopped anyone before?

Spiryt
2010-03-22, 07:52 PM
It bugs me that one of the most important stats for a melee character is Con, and yet it is a passive stat. Dex is used for AoOs (Combat Reflexes), Ranged combat, Weapon Finesse, and saves. Str is used for melee attacks and special maneuvers. Con is used for two passive things for a noncaster: HP and a save (arguably the second most vital saving throw there is).


Mechanically, why shouldn't Con also be used actively during combat? I know the flavor makes no sense, but has that ever stopped anyone before?

Well, because Constitution is a "passive" stat generally, at least in sense of things you do in D&D - you do stuff, or the stuff is done to you and you see how your body reacts to it - with breathing, blood flow and stuff. Or putting it in less silly way, you do only what your body allows you to without failing/perishing/stopping.

You could actively use Con do breath under water longer, go on 160% of less tough body capabilities without harm, but that would require new feats, i guess...

The problem is that designers hadn't shown signs of very big imagination or knowledge in projecting such "mundane" parts of the game.

As far as feat revision goes, my humble suggestion would be that perhaps something defensive could be used as "active" usage of Con...

Maybe CE? Maybe something with shield?

In the sense, that you can protect yourself by keeping going tirelessly, when lesser guy would spew already, and patiently taking blow on the places when they will cause pain and fatigue, but not so much damage. Like shield, or....

Alternatively something I wrote about earlier. That's all probably not very sensible either, but that's what I can think about now.

Cieyrin
2010-03-23, 04:14 PM
I like a lot of what I see but there are some things that don't sit well with me/make no sense.

Firstly, your version of Power Attack makes fine sense to me, putting it around the same level as the Pathfinder Beta version in my book. Applying your robustness doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense in determining your ability to hit things hard but giving added weight to Constitution makes plenty of sense. I'm just not so sure about the Charisma replacement for Undead and Constructs, as that makes utterly no sense. Yeah, they're neutral where bodily functions occur but that still feels very left field. I just don't know a better solution for that, though, either...

Next, why specifically require proficiency in Light Steel Shields for Combat Expertise? Why not Light Shields or even just Shields, as I don't recall much in the way of classes that deny you proficiency in Heavy Shields. They usually just say All Shields except Tower. Also, why specify a material? What's inferior about using a Wooden Shield to keep yourself from getting stabbed? I fail to understand...

I'm with Eldan on how Spring Attack works, though I was thinking making it more like Flyby Attack would have made better sense. I can see that it becomes feasible with putting the Spring Attack enhancers in with it but I'd have thought making it any Standard, as opposed to just an attack, would have made it better. Are similar things going to happen to Ride-By Attack?

Improved Initiative just kinda makes me go "A-buh...what? 0_o?" I don't think Improved Initiative really needed a fix of that type, as it did its job admirably. Changing the mechanic that drastically just feels very far left field but hey, if that's the way you go with it, I guess I don't see any major problems, it's just kinda jarring. Why not just roll Danger Sense in to get an Init reroll? That'd make a bit more sense in my book.

Improved Grapple giving half BAB again as a bonus is a bit off to me. I think applying the same logic as you did to Power Attack and putting Con there instead would be a tad more balanced, as learning to apply your mass more effectively seems to be a Con thing, anyways. The rest looks good, just the bonus gave me a bit of pause.

Finally, ye gods, Stun Attempts everywhere! BAB + Wis + Monk levels/day is a lot of uses. Maybe replace BAB with Monk levels, to defuse that the Monk trails behind in uses if he would have had to use the BAB + Wis formula?

The rest looks pretty good, especially the Save modifications, as you made the Save feats that much more valuable.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Sir Shadow
2010-03-23, 04:21 PM
Feats should not impose a penalty to a character just for using them. You don't see casters taking penalties from their own feats, why should a noncaster take penalties from their own feats?
Ok, hold up there. MetaMagic feats do give penalties by increasing the level of the spell. .

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-24, 04:36 PM
Ok, hold up there. MetaMagic feats do give penalties by increasing the level of the spell. .

That's not that much of a penalty. I was mainly refering to things like Practiced Spellcaster and Item Creation feats (both of which are more of a boon than a hindrance).


I like a lot of what I see but there are some things that don't sit well with me/make no sense.

Firstly, your version of Power Attack makes fine sense to me, putting it around the same level as the Pathfinder Beta version in my book. Applying your robustness doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense in determining your ability to hit things hard but giving added weight to Constitution makes plenty of sense. I'm just not so sure about the Charisma replacement for Undead and Constructs, as that makes utterly no sense. Yeah, they're neutral where bodily functions occur but that still feels very left field. I just don't know a better solution for that, though, either...

That was my problem too. Several undead and constructs have Power Attack, and removing it from them nerfs them a little. I really didn't have much of a choice there, though I could have made it a headache by making it Size-based.


Next, why specifically require proficiency in Light Steel Shields for Combat Expertise? Why not Light Shields or even just Shields, as I don't recall much in the way of classes that deny you proficiency in Heavy Shields. They usually just say All Shields except Tower. Also, why specify a material? What's inferior about using a Wooden Shield to keep yourself from getting stabbed? I fail to understand...

That was mainly a personal thing. Technically, it works with all shields (bucklers and tower shields included). In retrospect, there aren't that many classes that are only proficient in one type of shield. Restricting it like that is a little arbitrary on my part. Will edit.


I'm with Eldan on how Spring Attack works, though I was thinking making it more like Flyby Attack would have made better sense. I can see that it becomes feasible with putting the Spring Attack enhancers in with it but I'd have thought making it any Standard, as opposed to just an attack, would have made it better. Are similar things going to happen to Ride-By Attack?

Ride-By-Attack is becoming a Skill Trick (there will also be an option for Shot on the Run and a Spring Attack+Arcane Channeling).


Improved Initiative just kinda makes me go "A-buh...what? 0_o?" I don't think Improved Initiative really needed a fix of that type, as it did its job admirably. Changing the mechanic that drastically just feels very far left field but hey, if that's the way you go with it, I guess I don't see any major problems, it's just kinda jarring. Why not just roll Danger Sense in to get an Init reroll? That'd make a bit more sense in my book.

The main thing was that I've seen (and experienced) so many poor Init rolls even with the feat that it was rediculous. I changed the mechanic behind it to provide a smaller Range while still providing a benefit that's reasonably in line with the original.


Improved Grapple giving half BAB again as a bonus is a bit off to me. I think applying the same logic as you did to Power Attack and putting Con there instead would be a tad more balanced, as learning to apply your mass more effectively seems to be a Con thing, anyways. The rest looks good, just the bonus gave me a bit of pause.

True.


Finally, ye gods, Stun Attempts everywhere! BAB + Wis + Monk levels/day is a lot of uses. Maybe replace BAB with Monk levels, to defuse that the Monk trails behind in uses if he would have had to use the BAB + Wis formula?

Considering the math, it actually gives them enough to use Stunning Fist multiple times in a single encounter. A Full-BAB noncaster generally needs to make 90 or so attack rolls in a 4-encounter day. If the Monk has 45 Stunning Fist attempts, he can use Stunning Fist every other round to match that output (I did the math in another thread, I'll see if I can find it).


The other part is I'm working on a Monk fix, and Stunning Fist will fuel both Quivering Palm and Wholeness of Body (along with several Skill Tricks/Feats). Quivering Palm will consume about 8 or so Stunning attempts each use, while Wholeness of Body will be designed to improve healing effects that target the Monk (or provide a minor healing amount in case of emergency).


Thanks for the input.

Cieyrin
2010-03-25, 02:25 PM
I likes to see Quivering Palm off of a 1/week usage, as that makes it never used ever. I look forward to your Monk fix to see how it compares to the Penny Dreadful spin.

Evard
2010-03-27, 02:32 PM
Con to damage makes perfect sense, the reason why is that if a boxer punches a punching bag like a normal person would the boxer could hit the punching bag a lot more than if the boxer turned his/her hips and put the weight into it that a boxer does during a match.

It takes the whole body to throw a good punch not just the arms (str) or precision (dex). It also takes a lot out of you too... maye power attack should cost 1hp (non-lethal) ?

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-29, 09:08 PM
Con to damage makes perfect sense, the reason why is that if a boxer punches a punching bag like a normal person would the boxer could hit the punching bag a lot more than if the boxer turned his/her hips and put the weight into it that a boxer does during a match.

It takes the whole body to throw a good punch not just the arms (str) or precision (dex). It also takes a lot out of you too... maye power attack should cost 1hp (non-lethal) ?

I don't like making feats that impose a penalty, especially one for a Front-line character when the feat penalizes HP. It may make sense thematically, but mechanically that's going to get a character killed (4HP/round minimum won't seem like much, but Fighters make 90 attack rolls in a 5 round encounter if they get a minimum of a Full Attack every round). All of a sudden, that extra 10-15 damage has become a healing sink and a danger to the Fighter (multiple enemies will take advantage of the HP damage, even if it is nonlethal).