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Ashtagon
2010-03-21, 12:41 PM
Bows

Apply your Dexterity modifier to attack rolls. Apply your Strength modifier to damage rolls.

Like all traditional ranged weapons, these weapons require considerable overhead clearance in order to be used effectively. Their maximum range is limited to ten times the ceiling height at the mid-point between the attacker and the target.

The standard bows (short and long) may be either self-bows (made of a single piece of material) or composite bows (made of various materials laminated together); the difference is purely cultural. Until modern scientific measurements and machine tooling became available, it wasn’t practical to pick the precise materials and tensile strengths to make composite bows reliably stronger than their self-bow cousins. Equally, the standard bows may be either straight (the bow arms have the same curve direction whether the bow is strung or unstrung) or recurve (the bow arms curve in different directions, depending on whether the weapon is strung or unstrung). Again, this is considered purely a flavour issue.

Aside: This flattening of differences between composite and standard bows is a result of two issues. First, culturally, the types of bows were distinctly restricted by geography, and it would not be fair to give some cultures an obvious advantage in missile weapons. Second, the ‘composite bow is superior’ meme was a result of orientalism (belief that East Asian, specifically Mongol in this case, weapons are superior) and a blurring of modern composite bow construction with traditional composite bow construction techniques.

Short Bow: This weapon is about 3-4 feet long. You need two hands to wield or reload a short bow, regardless of size. You can use a short bow while riding an animal or seated.

Long Bow: This weapon is about 5-7 feet long. You need two hands to wield or reload a long bow, regardless of size. Additionally, a long bow cannot be used while riding an animal or seated.

Mighty Bow: Both short and long bows may be made out of materials with much higher tensile strengths than standard. This modification increases the damage of the bow as if it were one size category larger. A character must have the Mighty Archer feat to use a mighty bow; without this feat, he cannot use the weapon at all. This modification can be combined with the modern composite bow construction option, but not with the modern mechanical (compound) bow construction option.

Modern Composite Bows: Both short and long bows may be made in modern composite forms, which apply scientific principles and modern machine tooling to optimise the tensile strength of the weapon. This modification increases the range increment by 20 feet. This modification can be combined with the mighty bow construction option, but not with the modern mechanical (compound) bow construction option. This option reflects the standard bow considered legal for use in modern Olympics games; in should be considered legal for use in campaigns set after 1900 or so.

Modern Mechanical (Compound) Bows: Both short and long bows may be made in modern mechanical (compound) forms, which use a system of pulleys, cams, and levers to maximise the power of the weapon. This modification increases the range increment by 20 feet, and increases the damage of the bow as if it were one size category larger. Additionally, because no significant strength is required to hold the bow in a drawn posture, certain feats that normally only apply to crossbows and firearms can be applied to the compound bow. This modification cannot be combined with either the mighty bow or the modern composite bow construction options. Historically, these were invented in 1966, with a US patent granted in 1969.

Crossbows

Apply your Dexterity modifier to attack rolls. Damage rolls do not normally benefit from any ability score modifiers, although certain feats can allow the character to apply an ability score modifierto damage rolls.

Like all traditional ranged weapons, these weapons require considerable overhead clearance in order to be used effectively. Their maximum range is limited to ten times the ceiling height at the mid-point between the attacker and the target.

Hand Crossbow: Also called a crossbow pistol, this crossbow is designed to be wielded in one hand. It requires two hands and a move action to reload. For purposes of two-weapon fighting, this is considered a light weapon.

Light Crossbow: This requires two hands to fire properly, but can be fired with one hand at a –2 penalty on the attack roll. It requires two hands and a move action to reload. For purposes of two-weapon fighting, this is considered a light weapon.

Heavy Crossbow: Sometimes called an arbalest, this requires two hands to fire properly, but can be fired with one hand at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. It requires two hands and a full-round action to reload. For purposes of two-weapon fighting, this is considered a one-handed weapon.

Repeating Crossbow: Any crossbow made be built with this construction option. The weapon incorporates an internal magazine that can hold up to ten bolts. Reloading the internal magazine is a full-round action that requires two hands, regardless of the original size of the weapon. Operating the lever to load a new bolt in position and draw the bowstring ready to fire is a free action that requires two hands. If the weapon is already armed ready to fire, it can be fired with one hand, but a bolt cannot be readied again with one hand. This modification cannot be combined with the mighty crossbow option.

Aside: I increased the magazine capacity from the 3E standard of five bolts to ten bolts. This reflects the information gleaned from wikipedia, and also makes it more useful. Characters can now go more than one round without reloading while conducting full attacks.

Mighty Crossbow: Similar to bows, crossbows may be made in a mighty form that uses extra-strong materials for the arms and a reinforced re-arming mechanism (typically a geared winch). This modification increases the damage of the crossbow as if it were one size category larger. A character does not require any special feat to use such a crossbow. However, reloading time is greatly increased; hand crossbows require a standard action, light crossbows require a full-round action, and heavy crossbows require two full-round actions to reload. This modification cannot be combined with the repeating crossbow option.

Ammunition Quality

Modern: These are machine-tooled to remove all possible imperfections, and made of lightweight materials such as aluminium. Increase the damage die one step. Long bows now deal 1d10 hp, short bows 1d8 hp.

Standard: No change.

Poor: Made of thinner branches unsuited to arrows, or even from heavy reeds glued together. Decrease the damage die one step. Long bows now deal 1d6 hp, short bows 1d4 hp. Additionally, the size of the weapon’s range increment is halved. Any attempt to use such ammunition in a mighty bow or mighty crossbow automatically fails; the force of the weapon simply shatters the arrow or bolt before it travels any real distance.

Ashtagon
2010-03-22, 01:21 AM
48 views and no comments?

Temotei
2010-03-22, 01:27 AM
48 views and no comments?

Patience. It's not even been a day. A good rule is to wait until a thread has fallen to the second page to bump it.

Spiryt
2010-03-22, 08:38 AM
Well, because it hadn't really interested me, I didn't plan to reply to it, but since no one else seems to try...


Like all traditional ranged weapons, these weapons require considerable overhead clearance in order to be used effectively. Their maximum range is limited to ten times the ceiling height at the mid-point between the attacker and the target.

Interesting rule. I'm not even trying to bother about "correctness" of it, because it would really, really vary due to different velocities, arrow weights and stuff.

It's very fine, as general indicator/reminder that "this place is a bit to narrow for archery, Herr Legolars", at very least.

Although I would probably rule that you can always shoot normally at first range increment

As it is, really normal 9 feet ceiling doesn't allow shooting at 30 meters, while really many arrows can travel such distance without really traveling much above intended target.

That reminds me how I once hit target with my weaak 30 bow in cellar, even though ceiling was indeed a bit to low. It was pretty ricochet (don't ask about shooting in the cellar).

I will probably say something about the rest later.

Ashtagon
2010-03-22, 09:20 AM
Hmm, let's try working out the ceiling height rule mathematically...

Base assumption is that a proper stance for an adult human has the arrow loosed from a height of 5 feet, and that we want the maximum arrow height at the mid-point to be 10 feet. Extending a straight line means we are 'aiming' at a point 15 feet above the target (and allowing gravity to compensate to pull the arrow back down to him him).

A little bit of maths tells me that gravity will take 0.966 seconds to pull an object down 15 feet. That's our flight time. (distance fallen = time squared x 0.5 x gravity).

http://www.atarn.org/islamic/akarpowicz/turkish_bow_tests.htm tells me that arrow velocities range from 150-350 feet per second (45-100 m/s). If we take the mid-point of that (250 fps), and multiply it by our flight time, we get 240 feet as the distance an arrow should be able to travel per 10 feet of ceiling height.

It's probably reasonable to reduce this to 200 feet, both because it's less brainwork in the middle of the game to use a round number, and because you want to be able to aim at the enemy's body, and not just at his feet.

So... looks like a revision to that ceiling height rule is in order.

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Edit: Let's assume we want to hit at his chest and not his feet. The mid-point is again 10 feet above ground, and extending the line to the target, we are pointing at a space 15 feet above ground, and we want to allow gravity to drop the arrow 5 feet (back to chest-height). This takes gravity 0.788 seconds. With the above-mentioned arrow velocity, that's almost exactly 200 feet travelled.

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So, overall...

Hand-thrown ranged weapons require a ceiling height of 10 feet per 100 feet of distance to the target.

Projectile/launched muscle-powered weapons (bows, crossbows, and slings) require a ceiling height of 10 feet per 200 feet of distance to the target.

Just for completeness...

Gunpowder weapons (and low-velocity modern mortars and grenade launchers) require a ceiling height of 10 feet per 1000 feet of distance to the target.

General-use modern firearms launch ammunition fast enough that gravity is unlikely to impose any meaningful ceiling-space requirement over any playable range.

Scow2
2010-03-22, 09:55 AM
Using your math... how about Longbows get 200+STRx10' per 10' ceiling clearance, while shortbows get 150+STR x10' per 10' ceiling clearance. Greater strength means greater force... which means greater velocity, since the mass of the Arrow doesn't change as much. Greater Strength means more velocity, and thus figures into the equation as well. Mighty bows increase range by 100' per 10'

Hand crossbows should get 150' per 10', Light Crossbows get 300'10 ft, and Heavy Crossbows get 350'10 ft.

Normal range increment penalties still apply.

Currently, having all ranged weapons shoot the same distance is absurd, because stronger weapons invariably shoot straighter.

Ceiling height should have absolutely no appreciable effect on firearms, since by the time there is appreciable loss of altitude, it's already exceeded the maximum number of range increments (Bullet tragectory is too random at that point to hit accurately).

Ashtagon
2010-03-22, 10:05 AM
Using your math... how about Longbows get 200+STRx20 /ft per 10' ceiling clearance, while shortbows get 150+STR x10 /ft per 10' ceiling clearance. Greater strength means greater force... which means greater velocity, since the mass of the Arrow doesn't change as much. Greater Strength means more velocity, and thus figures into the equation as well.

Hand crossbows should get 150 per 10 ft, Light Crossbows get 300 per 10 ft, and Heavy Crossbows get 400 per 10 ft.

Normal range increment penalties still apply.

Currently, having all ranged weapons shoot the same distance is absurd, because stronger weapons invariably shoot straighter.

Too complicated (even though it is justifiable to an extent). I want this to be a relatively simple mechanic. Plus your numbers are far too generous for longbows. The BEST real-world bow gets 350 fps, which results in 270 feet at the allowed-for flight time, far less than the 400 feet you'd give a Str 10 archer or even the 560 feet you'd give the Str 18 archer.

Also, the design of bows doesn't really allow you to put greater strength into the shot than the bow itself was designed for (cue long side-debate which has been done many times and to which I will NOT respond on this thread).


Firearms should have absolutely no appreciable reliance on ceiling height, since by the time there is appreciable loss of altitude, it's already exceeded the maximum number of range increments (Bullet trajectory is too random at that point to hit accurately).

For modern bullets, I certainly agree with this statement. But early gunpowder weapons had muzzle velocities only slightly higher than a good heavy crossbow. Note that my 1000 ft limit per 10 ft clearance is effectively unlimited anyway. Not many folk build dungeon corridors that long.

How about:

* Thrown: 100 ft per 10 ft clearance.
* Projectile: 200 ft per 10 ft clearance.
* mighty bows/crossbows: 300 ft per 10 ft clearance.
* gunpowder: 1000 ft per 10 ft clearance.
* modern firearms: no ceiling clearance limit.

Scow2
2010-03-22, 10:27 AM
The ranges should be weapon specific, like range increment. It's just as simple once it's placed into a chart. And STR applies to range because you've already made it apply to Damage, which is based on impact momentum (which is Velocity and Mass), while Range is based on Acceleration (Force and Mass). Mass is a constant for both, which means velocity is all that changes. So, therefore, if strength increases the damage, it also increases the range

Also, you got the math wrong... 270 is not 96.6% of 350.

Hand Crossbow: 150'
Light Crossbow: 200'
Heavy Crossbow: 250'
Great Crossbow: 300'

Shortbow: 150 +10xSTR
Longbow: 200 + 10xSTR

So, a STR 20 archer would get 250 ft per 10' clearance at most, and making it Mighty (Give it a +50 instead of my earlier +100 suggestion) increases it to 300 instead, and making it a Modern Composite/Compound bow makes it 320 ft for a STR 20 human.

The thrown weapons are good as-is, since they rely entirely on the user's strength to launch, instead of a launcher made with construction that changes the available range due to efficiency and pull.

I think a Modern Compound bow should imitate the effect of Efficient Pull instead of trying to apply crossbow feats to it (Which would get ridiculous, since Crossbow Feats treat crossbows more as Rifles), at the cost of not allowing greater effective strength than the bow's built for to use it.

Ashtagon
2010-03-22, 10:46 AM
The ranges should be weapon specific, like range increment. It's just as simple once it's placed into a chart.

Hmm, how about saying the limit is two range increments per 10 feet of clearance for projectile weapons, one range increment per 10 feet of clearance for thrown weapons, and three range increments per 10 feet of clearance for mighty bows/crossbows (I want to give mighty weapons an extra bonus, just because). This ties everything more closely to ranges, and by unifying it all, becomes simpler to judge.

Aside: Debate on Strength applying to anything is NOT open to discussion in this thread. Start a new thread if you want to talk about that. I'm more likely to remove Strength entirely than apply it to anything extra.

Also, you got the math wrong... 270 is not 96.6% of 350.

Nope. I was basing it on 76%, not 96%, as I assumed you want to reliably him the enemy at chest height (or at least have an option on hitting him there), and not just consider his toes to be the only viable target.

I think a Modern Compound bow should imitate the effect of Efficient Pull instead of trying to apply crossbow feats to it (Which would get ridiculous, since Crossbow Feats treat crossbows more as Rifles), at the cost of not allowing greater effective strength than the bow's built for to use it.

I'm not sure how Efficient Pull would be integrated into this system. It essentially allows a character to have an effective Strength 2 points higher when using a "3e composite bow". But since I have eliminated that entire self/composite distinction, the overall effect boils down to +1 damage with a bow.

Part of my justification for having modern compound bows (and mighty bows) have damage as if one size greater is to make them comparable to modern firearms in terms of damage (ranges may be inferior, but the wound is just as serious as any firearm bullet as far as an MD is concerned). I calibrate firearm damages to be comparable to those in d20 Modern.

The only rendition of compound bows I have seen in any 3e rules is from Dragonstar, which treats it as a "+4 composite bow" that doesn't benefit (or suffer) from the archer's actual Strength. That actually makes it about the same compared to my version (mine would be 2d6+Str (7+Str) or 2d8+Str if using the modern arrows as well, Dragonstar's would be 1d10+4 (8.5) or 1d12+4 (10.5) if using their more modern ammunition).

One of the feats I am specifically thinking of that would apply to crossbows and firearms and modern compound bows is a homebrew one that would allow you to apply your Wisdom bonus to damage rolls, to reflect greater insight and perception in aiming at the target. This won't be applicable to regular bows, as those require significant strength to hold in an armed stance ready to fire, which will result in minor wobbles in aiming over a period which would not apply to compound bows (or crossbows or firearms).

Scow2
2010-03-22, 11:01 AM
Ah, I see that crossbow thing, then.

I think the 2x range increment for ceiling height should apply to both, thrown weapons and projectile weapons, since half the range increment penalties are from vertical error, and the other half are from horizontal error.

EDIT: On second thought, that 100'/10' thing (or 50'/10' if 100' is too long) would be better... the weight of thrown weapons mean they fall faster than arrows, and maximum angle is 45o to increase range, so it could be assumed that for the short distances of their range increments, they fall too fast for the ceiling to really risk their tragectories.

Ashtagon
2010-03-22, 12:13 PM
Reading over weapon statistics from the SRD, the best thrown weapon is 30 ft (javelin), and the worst projectile weapon is 50 ft (sling). I guess given that thrown weapons have such poor range increments anyway, making them 2 range increments per 10 feet of ceiling clearance is still fair.

Final analysis:

* Thrown/Projectile: 2 range increments per 10 ft of ceiling clearance.
* Mighty Bows and Crossbows: 3 range increments per 10 ft of ceiling clearance.
* Early Gunpowder Weapons: 5 range increments per 10 ft of ceiling clearance.
* Later Firearms: No restrictions based on ceiling clearance.

Zexion
2010-03-22, 02:36 PM
I like this system more than the old system. This has more detail, and is more complex- the two things that all 3.5 players love.