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Geiger Counter
2010-03-23, 02:06 AM
This class has transformed basically into Kiba Inuzuka from naruto. It is a good idea to apply for this class using the wilderness rogue from unearthed arcana. A pictures worth a thousand words.
http://www.narutopictures.biz/pics/kiba-akamaru.jpg
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080728202904/naruto/images/d/d4/Man_Beast_Combination_Transformation_Double-Headed_Wolf.jpg

HOUND MASTER
Hit Die: d6.
Requirements
To qualify to become a hound master, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Feats: Track, Rapid Shot or Two Weapon Fighting, endurance.
Skills: 8 ranks in survival.
Special: Sneak attack +1d6, Evasion.
Class Skills
The hound masterís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (geography/nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Survival (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier.
Hound master
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|+0|+0|+2|+0|Skills of the Trade, Animal Companion, Distracting Companion, Experienced Tracker, Magic Fang +1.

2nd|+1|+0|+3|+1|Sneak Attack +1d6, Uncanny Dodge.

3rd|+2|+1|+3|+1|Improved Combat Style, Woodland Stride, Magic Fang +2.

4th|+3|+1|+4|+1|Sneak Attack +2d6, Dire Companion.

5th|+3|+1|+4|+1|Improved Uncanny Dodge, Spirit Bond, Magic Fang +3.

6th|+4|+2|+5|+2|Sneak Attack +3d6,

7th|+5|+2|+5|+2|Combat Style Mastery, Special ability, Magic Fang +4.

8th|+6|+2|+6|+2|Sneak Attack +4d6, Camouflage.

9th|+6|+3|+6|+3|Swift Tracker, Hide in Plain Sight, Magic Fang +5.

10th|+7|+3|+7|+3|Sneak attack +5d6, Special ability, Fuse.[/table]
Class Features
All of the following are Class Features of the hound master prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Hound masters gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.
Skills of the Trade: A Hound master gains free skill ranks in profession (Tailor) craft (armorsmithing) (Both with leather, hide and bone items only) and profession (butcher) equal to his levels in hound master.
Animal Companion (Ex): A hound master may begin play with an animal companion selected from the following list: dog, riding dog or wolf. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the hound master on his adventures as appropriate for its kind. If the hound master has received an animal companion from another class itís special properties only stack with the hound masterís if that animal is on the hound masterís list of animal companion choices.
A 1st-level hound masterís companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below. As a hound master advances in level, the animalís power increases at the same rate as a druidís. If a hound master releases his companion from service, he may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer. This ceremony can also replace an animal companion that has perished.
Distracting Companion (Ex): Any creature threatened by a hound masterís animal companion allows the hound master who owns that companion (only) to make sneak attacks against that creature. The hound master must otherwise fulfill all other criteria normal to making sneak attacks.
Experienced Tracker (Ex): A Hound masterís animal companion gains a bonus to tracking equal to itís masterís ranks in survival.
Magic Fang (Su): At 1st level A hound master's companion gains a +1 enhancement bonus to it's bite attack. This increases by +1 at all odd levels.
Sneak Attack: This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every other level (2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th). If a hound master gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, both the hound master and his companion retain their Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) regardless of being caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. (They still lose any Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.)
If a character gains uncanny dodge from a second class the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below).
Improved Combat Style (Ex): At Third level, a hound master must select one of two combat styles to pursue: archery or two-weapon combat. This choice affects the characterís class features but does not restrict his selection of feats or special abilities in any way.
If the hound master selects archery, he must have the Rapid Shot feat. If the hound master selects two-weapon combat, he must have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. If the hound master has both feats he can still only choose one combat style.
If he selected archery he is treated as having the Manyshot feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat. If the hound master selected two-weapon combat he is treated as having the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.
The benefits of the hound masterís chosen style apply only when he wears light or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style when wearing medium or heavy armor.
Woodland Stride (Ex): Starting at his third level, both a hound master and his companion may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at his normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that are enchanted or magically manipulated to impede motion still affect them.
Dire Companion (Sp): Upon reaching his forth level a hound master gains this spell like ability to transform his companion into something akin to a dire version of his companion's type. His pet (only) goes under the effects of the animal growth spell. This spell treats the hound master's levels as a caster level. This spell lasts 1 hour per caster level and can be cast once per day for every three levels the hound master has in this class.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level, both a hound master and his companion can no longer be flanked, since they can each react to opponents on opposite sides of himself as easily as he can react to a single attacker. This defense denies rogues the ability to use flank attacks to sneak attack the hound master. The exception to this defense is that a rogue at least four levels higher than the hound master can flank him (and thus sneak attack him).
If a character gains uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge, and the levels from those classes stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
Spirit Bond: Upon reaching his fifth level the hound master and his companion grow a bond so close they share magical effects. While they are within 100 feet of eachother both the hound master and his companion share all enchantment, insight, luck, morale, profane, resistance and sacred effects.
Special Abilities: On attaining 7th level, and at every three levels thereafter a hound master gains a special ability of her choice from among the same options as a rogueís special abilities.
Enchanted Companion (Su): Upon reaching the sixth level a hound master's companion's bite attack is always under the effects of greater magic fang at a caster level equal to the hound master's level in hound master.
Combat Style Mastery (Ex): At 7th level, a hound masterís aptitude in his chosen combat style (archery or two-weapon combat) improves again. If he selected archery, he is treated as having the Improved Precise Shot feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.
If the hound master selected two-weapon combat, he is treated as having the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.
As before, the benefits of the hound masterís chosen style apply only when he wears light or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style when wearing medium or heavy armor.
Camouflage (Ex): Upon reaching the eighth level, both a hound master and his companion can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesnít grant cover or concealment.
Swift Tracker (Ex): Beginning at 9th level, both a hound master and his companion can move at their normal speed while following tracks without taking the normal Ė5 penalty. Taking only a Ė10 penalty (instead of the normal Ė20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while tracking.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): When he reaches the ninth level, both a hound master and his companion while in any sort of natural terrain can use the Hide skill even while being observed.
Fuse: The hound master spends one of his daily uses of dire companion, which lasts just as long, unless the hound master endís it early, to merge with his animal companion to create one of two possible forms. A two headed beast or a four armed hybrid archer creature. He must merely touch his animal companion to merge with it. The hound master looses all equipment, the ability to speak and cast spells in this form just as if he used wild shape, so if the hound master gains any ability that would allow a druid to retain equipment, speak and cast spells while in wildshape, so can a hound master while fused. Physically in the first form the dog or wolf gains the normal effects of dire companion but it also gains an extra head and so an extra bite attack equal in size to the real head. Both heads receive the same benefits from magic fang. If the hound master had two weapon fighting both heads can attack with the same penalties as if someone was fighting with two light weapons. Also if they had any other two weapon fighting feats the extra head can attack just as many times as he could with an off hand weapon. Both heads always deals sneak attack damage unless the target creature is immune to sneak attacks and critical hits. The hound master's second possible form is a large four armed creature similar in appearance to a lycanthropes hybrid form. A large composite Great Bow (CW) appears in the creature's hands which perfectly adjusts to double the creature's strength bonus (four arms=double strength bonus), alongside a never ending supply of size appropriately sized arrows. Any enchantment bonus from magic fang is applied to the arrows fired. Any ability bonus or ability penalty the Companion had except intelligence is either added or subtracted from it's master's scores. The companion gains all hit points, skills, BAB and saves from the hound masterís class levels. The fused entity also gains any the feats the hound master has that can be used in this new form. Also the merging of two minds and two bodies makes for a creature with a lot of redundancy, the fused entity rolls twice when making fortitude and will saves and takes the better of the two results. When they demerge they split their hit points equally unless that would cause one of the to have more hitpoints than their maximum hitpoints than those hitpoints are given to the one with the higher maximum hitpoints.

Temotei
2010-03-23, 02:16 AM
At 11th level, a rangerís

So the hunter is basically a rogue/ranger? Maybe new abilities would make the class more interesting. Some things like additional bonuses against animals and favored enemies?

You have hide in plain sight listed twice in the table, by the way.

ErrantX
2010-03-23, 08:58 AM
While your concept is valid, I don't think that making a class that is blatantly just Ranger with some rogue abilities tacked onto it is the way to go. There are no abilities that show any sort of synergy beyond distracting companion, which can be solved by being within 30ft of a target with a ranged weapon and have your pet flank it.

That being said, this sort of already exists in the vein of the Swift Hunter (CSc). It's a Scout / Ranger multiclass feat that allows Skirmish and Favored Enemy to progress with either class. Traditionally, people tend to go 4 Scout / 16 Ranger to get the full BAB and ranger spells as well as full Skirmish. I'm afraid you're trying to reinvent the wheel here. You could obviously do a Rogue variant of the Swift Hunter feat, if you felt inclined, but Scout has better synergy with Ranger.

As far as ways to improve upon what you have here already? Make new class abilities that tie into both Ranger and Rogue as a blend, as well specific Hunter special abilities that don't draw from the Rogue list of special abilities. Find synergy, or create it artificially through this class. Such as a class feature that allows you to always get your Sneak Attack on your Favored Enemy, for example. Synergy is key when making Hybrid classes.

-X

Temotei
2010-03-23, 08:19 PM
You'll definitely need unique class features. As of now, the class is kind of boring, to be honest. Just combining the two classes like you mentioned isn't a great way to go about it. If you did want to combine them, make a base class out of it.

Ideas:

A feature granting increased attack and damage against animals (separate from favored enemy).
Take away the favored enemy requirement, but add Track or Endurance in place of it.

Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local/dungeoneering/geography/nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Survival (Wis), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).


Consider getting rid of the bold skills--especially Appraise, Disable Device, Disguise, Forgery, Perform, and Sleight of Hand.

Continuing ideas:

Get rid of the animal companion in favor of something less ranger, since you likely already have an animal companion if you're entering this class.
Take ErrantX's idea for sneak attacks against favored enemies, except limit it to a number of times per encounter or per day (1/day at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th, or 1/encounter at 2nd and 8th would be my recommendations).
Change the BAB requirement to a skill requirement. Survival (8 ranks) would work best.
Fix the rest of the copy-paste error I pointed out earlier (it still says 11th level).


That's all I've got for now.

Geiger Counter
2010-03-23, 10:21 PM
You'll definitely need unique class features. As of now, the class is kind of boring, to be honest. Just combining the two classes like you mentioned isn't a great way to go about it. If you did want to combine them, make a base class out of it.

As I said before I'm not trying for anything original. And there is absolutely no reason to make it a base class.


Ideas:

A feature granting increased attack and damage against animals (separate from favored enemy).
Take away the favored enemy requirement, but add Track or Endurance in place of it.



I Modified the favored enemy feature to specialize in creatures of animal intelligence. I don't see endurance or track as being particularly vital to this class.


Consider getting rid of the bold skills--especially Appraise, Disable Device, Disguise, Forgery, Perform, and Sleight of Hand.

I agree with some of those, however I don't see why the scount would have any class skills that this class wouldn't have.


Continuing ideas:

Get rid of the animal companion in favor of something less ranger, since you likely already have an animal companion if you're entering this class.
Take ErrantX's idea for sneak attacks against favored enemies, except limit it to a number of times per encounter or per day (1/day at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th, or 1/encounter at 2nd and 8th would be my recommendations).
Change the BAB requirement to a skill requirement. Survival (8 ranks) would work best.
Fix the rest of the copy-paste error I pointed out earlier (it still says 11th level).


That's all I've got for now.

The animal companion is the main feature of the class so no, I'm not going to get rid of it, also I knew exactly what I was doing when designing this class. You need 2 levels or rogue, that gives you 1 BAB, if you take the other 4 BAB from the ranger you do not have an animal companion yet. You would have to delay taking the hunter PrC for a level to get an animal companion from the ranger which wouldn't stack with hunter unless it was a dog or wolf.

ErrantX
2010-03-23, 11:36 PM
Then I'm questioning why you posted this class, if you're not interested in critiques. You're asking for a PEACH, and you're being given it. You have totally ignored the suggestions given to you. What is it that you're looking for then (other then possible praise)?

-X

DaTedinator
2010-03-24, 12:09 AM
Then I'm questioning why you posted this class, if you're not interested in critiques. You're asking for a PEACH, and you're being given it. You have totally ignored the suggestions given to you. What is it that you're looking for then (other then possible praise)?

-X

I'm not usually one to agree with harsh criticism (even when accurate and well-intentioned), but ErrantX represents my thoughts pretty well here. It's perfectly acceptable to post a class here and not tag it with PEACH, even if you do want feedback; I personally never do, just because I never feel like it's necessary. However, you can't really tag something with PEACH and then outright reject constructive comments given.

We don't dislike you and we're not trying to discourage you; if that was our goal, we just wouldn't say anything and we'd laugh as your thread slowly died. Just be aware when you post in the future, PEACH means "Please Examine And Critique Honestly;" it has nothing in there about being nice.

I'd close with comments about your class, but I'd pretty much just be echoing everyone else there, too. If you're making this class because you want to play it, consider looking into the gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) variant rules, and pitching them at your DM; from what I've seen, it's generally fair to let a gestalt character play in a non-gestalt game with a +2 LA.

Geiger Counter
2010-03-24, 03:42 AM
Um that's weird because I modified this class quite a bit because of criticism. I case you didn't notice I think I cut out 30% of it's class skills from a suggestion. I don't always agrees with criticisms but I always try to address all criticisms. Because of suggestions, I made it more animal oriented but I don't think it's currently working all that well and needs additional alterations.

Temotei
2010-03-24, 03:43 PM
Um that's weird because I modified this class quite a bit because of criticism. I case you didn't notice I think I cut out 30% of it's class skills from a suggestion. I don't always agrees with criticisms but I always try to address all criticisms. Because of suggestions, I made it more animal oriented but I don't think it's currently working all that well and needs additional alterations.

Editing out a few class skills isn't a big change.

Is there a Craft (Leatherworking) skill? I thought you could get everything out of armorsmithing and, if you're allowing something different, making leather clothing (Although, Profession (Tailor) makes more sense.).


Upon reaching his forth level a hunter gains this spell like ability which as a standard action can transform his companion into something akin to a dire version of his companion's type. Thanks to Spirit bond the hunter need only need be within 100 feet of his companion to cast the spell on it. His pet becomes one size larger, it's natural weapons deal increased damage, it gains +2 str -2 dex, a 10 foot increase in reach, and a 20 foot increase in speed. This spell treats the hunter's levels as a caster level, This spell lasts 10 minutes per caster level and can be cast once per day for every three levels the hunter has in this class.

Spirit bond?

You might as well just say they can use enlarge person, except it affects their animal companion, and only their animal companion. Then you can cut out everything except the reach, speed, and time increases (and uses per day). I would personally get rid of the reach part and just let the size increase deal with reach. Also consider changing the name of this feature. I thought it would be an upgrade to the animal companion, but it's really just a temporary power-up usable a limited amount of times per day and with limited duration.


Spirit Bond: Upon reaching his fifth level the hunter and his companion grow a bond so close they can transfer spells to eachother. While under any beneficial spell, and while they are within 100 feet of eachother either the hunter or his companion can share the effects of the spell with the other.

Oh. Spirit bond. You'll probably have to define beneficial spells more thoroughly. Is polymorph beneficial? How about rage? Some would say "yes," but sometimes those spells aren't beneficial.


Swift Tracker (Ex): Beginning at 9th level, a hunterís companion can move at itís normal speed

I saw a few other errors, but this one is going to be corrected. Take out the apostrophe. In this case, it's the possessive form that's being used (its).


Fuse: A hunter and his companion gain the ability to merge to create a new form (am still figuring out the mechanics for this)

This sounds interesting. Make sure it has some pretty big bonuses over having two things attacking with one being enlarged from dire companion.

The requirements should be less restrictive, but that's your choice for your campaign, not mine. Usually though, requirements should allow more than one or two combinations of classes and feats to get in. By putting Track as a requirement, you fill both the ranger level and the "hunter" aspect of the class while allowing other characters to enter the class if they take Track. Same with Endurance, except Track works better with the name "hunter."

Lastly, some fluff would be cool.


So yeah great job at talking about something which you know nothing about.

This was completely unnecessary.

Geiger Counter
2010-03-24, 08:05 PM
Okay I just did a ton of revising, please PEACH.

FlamingKobold
2010-03-26, 11:43 PM
Hit Die: d6.

I think d8 might be better, as he seems more ranger than rogue.


Requirements

Looks okay. I think track would be better than endurance. Since, you know, hunter's generally track things. It's much more relevant to the class than endurance, anyway.


Class Skills

Sure.




Skills of the Trade:

Minor skill bonuses that will probably never see use. Sure.


Animal Companion (Ex):

Why just those three? It's much more likely that a hunter would have some sort of aerial companion, anyway. So, a slightly nerfed version of a ranger feature.


Distracting Companion (Ex):

"who owns that companion (only)" is superfluous. So, a unique ability. Seeing as it's so dreadfully simple to make someone flat-footed anyway, this is a meh.


Experienced Tracker (Ex):

And yet you think that endurance is a better prereq than track? Odd. Meh ability, nothing interesting yet.


Sneak Attack:

Rogue class ability. Yawn.


Uncanny Dodge (Ex):

Rogue class ability gained much later. Great.


Improved Combat Style (Ex):

Ranger class feature. Maybe even one level early!


Woodland Stride (Ex):

Ranger class feature again.


Dire Companion (Sp):

*fourth. You can cast a spell that's on the ranger spell list as a SLA. It has 60 times the duration, but that won't matter unless you're in a dungeon crawl. Also fewer targets, so it comes out about even. Why is this Sp and not SLA? It makes more sense.


Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex):

Rogue class ability. And I thought we were done with these. I was mistaken.


Spirit Bond:

You share a few minor, obscure bonuses. Probably very little impact on the game. If it were enhancement bonuses, it would acctually mean something. The option of sharing spells targeted at one would be interesting as well. Not very useful. (Slightly less than a 'meh' on my scale.)


Special Abilities:

Back to rogue features.


Enchanted Companion (Su):

So... +1. then +2 at 8th level. Awesome. not really, though, as I've never had an animal companion that had less than this by the time you get the class feature. Useless in most cases.


Combat Style Mastery (Ex):

Sigh. Ranger Feature.


Camouflage (Ex):

And another.


Swift Tracker (Ex):

Again with the tracking. Also... Isn't there a feat that does this? So this is, IIRC, a bonus feat for your pet. Less than meh.


Hide in Plain Sight (Ex):

The originality is underwhelming.


Fuse: .

I think this is the only interesting ability in the class. So, ranged hunter's are basically screwed... And you're gaining this at about 15th level, right? 16th? This should be something that's actually impressive. And this makes absolutely no sense for ranged hunters.


All in all: Super boring. 1 actual class feature. about 4 or 5 original ones that are all too underwhelming, and a lot of advancement of previous class features. Spice it up a bit. You asked for a PEACH, I gave it. That is my honest evaluation so take what you will.

Geiger Counter
2010-03-26, 11:57 PM
I think I agree that this thing is not exactly a hunter, how does hound master sound? I'm not too bothered by it being called unoriginal as it started off simply to as a way to play a gestalt rogue/ranger in a nongestalt campaign. I notice you didn't notice that many class features apply to both the master and his companion which really bugged me about rangers. Also some suggestions would have been nice alongside the critique.

FlamingKobold
2010-03-27, 12:03 AM
The thing is, I wouldn't call this a hound master either. Here's what I would think would be part of a hound master:

1. Animal companion, of course. Any kind of wolf.
2. The ability to gain multiple of the same animal companion (As in, 2-4 wolves following you around)
3. The ability to basically wildshape into the form of your companion.
4. When you wildshape into it, you and your companions gain the dire stuff.
5. Lots of bonusews for pack fighting.
6. Something akin to your fuse ability.

In short, a hound master would be drastically different than this, IMHO, as this is more focused on you being a rogue and a ranger, and you just happen to have a pet wolf.

Temotei
2010-03-27, 12:04 AM
*fourth. You can cast a spell that's on the ranger spell list as a SLA. It has 60 times the duration, but that won't matter unless you're in a dungeon crawl. Also fewer targets, so it comes out about even. Why is this Sp and not SLA? It makes more sense.

(Sp) means spell-like ability.


Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)

Perhaps you were thinking it was a supernatural class feature.

FlamingKobold
2010-03-27, 12:06 AM
(Sp) means spell-like ability.

Perhaps you were thinking it was a supernatural class feature.

For some reason I read that as (Su)... Wow. :smallannoyed:

I do not know howthat happened. And then I apparently went on to remain in my state of "specialness" long enough to type Sp in my comment. Fail.

Temotei
2010-03-27, 12:15 AM
For some reason I read that as (Su)... Wow. :smallannoyed:

I've seen worse happen.

Anyway, I'm mostly in agreement with FlamingKobold here. The "ton of revising" isn't really where it should be. You're moving in the right direction, but not quite far enough. More unique and fun class features are needed.

In fact, if I were you, I would make an alternative to sneak attack. Maybe "hunter's prowess" or "hunter's sight." It could improve the critical threat range and critical damage against targets you study.

{table=head]Study Rounds|Extra Critical Threat Range|Extra Critical Damage
1|+2|+10
2|+4|+20
3|+6|+30[/table]

Maybe you should grant an attack bonus equal to the critical threat range increase as well. Assuming a bow, increasing the threat range to 14-20 (20 is 1. +6 means 20 - 6 = 14.) would give a 35% chance to get a critical hit with a +30 bonus to damage after three rounds. Yeah...I'd add half the critical threat range increase to attack rolls. A hunter can decide how many rounds to study a target, but after they attack once, the rounds reset, forcing them to restart at the beginning of the table. The hunter may not study a target for more than 3 rounds.

Something like that.

Geiger Counter
2010-03-27, 12:36 AM
I revised magic fang and the fuse ability to favor archers and TW fighters equally before I read your new posts. Peach that while I make further adjustments.