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quiet1mi
2010-03-23, 12:18 PM
Here is another question that has cropped up at the games table. How does a DM deal with a Caster that deals primarily with "Quality Effects" like illusions or Enchantments like Charm person.

I am looking for ways to challenge the caster without being too heavy handed. IE: Everyone has Truesight! Everyone Has Protection from X!

A classic offender is the Bard, while a newer offender is the beguiler...

Caphi
2010-03-23, 12:21 PM
Will saves. Well, that would be the basic answer. Not that everyone should suddenly learn Iron Will, but suppose the party encountered mages of any type at all. Arcane academy, holy temple, druidic circle.

Alternatively, zombie hordes.

Flickerdart
2010-03-23, 12:28 PM
Grimlocks don't have eyes, but have blindsight. Thus, they're impervious to most illusions, at least at the early levels. Likewise, Tremorsense and such, and especially Mindsight.

Ernir
2010-03-23, 12:42 PM
I am looking for ways to challenge the caster without being too heavy handed. IE: Everyone has Truesight! Everyone Has Protection from X!

30% of your enemies have True Seeing, 30% of your enemies have Protection from X is not that harsh, though. Some encounters will be easily won. Just throw more encounters at them.

Also, powerful protections are more common among more difficult opponents. Powerful demons/Wizards/whatever do have True Seeing/Mind Blank/whatever, because without it, they probably would have been turned into mush by a Beguiler by now.
Doubly so if your PCs have established some kind of fame, so that their opponents come specifically geared to counter them.

Frozen_Feet
2010-03-23, 12:45 PM
Throw a similar level batman wizard who specialises in illusions at them, and beat them in their own game!

shadow_archmagi
2010-03-23, 12:50 PM
Try using a variety of threats. The traditional "Walls that slowly crush you" are completely immune to charm person

Oozes and undead are also good. Don't just slap a "YOUR ABILITY NO LONGER WORKS" effect on, just find situations where their ability doesn't work.

Lysander
2010-03-23, 12:57 PM
Have smart enemies that plan for those kinds of attacks. For example, a part of enemy soldiers wary of illusions might have a policy to toss a stone at any strange object or creature they see. Maybe they keep one sentient undead soldier with them just to provide an observer who can't be manipulated by enchantments, and can warn the party.

Flickerdart
2010-03-23, 12:58 PM
Gelatinous zombies; the solution to any problem.

Sinfire Titan
2010-03-23, 01:03 PM
Note: Mindless Undead are as susceptible to Illusions as Golems are to the Grease spell. Mindless undead can't form a logical conclusion to save their hides, thus a wall springing up from nowhere is going to make them falter unless the one commanding them tells them to walk through it.

Flickerdart
2010-03-23, 01:04 PM
Awakened gelatinous zombies, then.

jiriku
2010-03-23, 01:04 PM
My players are very fond of enchantment magic especially, although not so much on the illusions. One of my players in particular likes to spam confusion like it's going out of style.

I try to stick close to the MM1 recommendation on Will saves: A creature with the poor Will save progression should have a save bonus of about =CR, while a creature with a good Will save progression should have a bonus about =CR*1.5. For difficult encounters (total EL greater than party by +1 or +2), I'll aim to beat those targets by about +2, since I'm probably using many monsters of individually low CR. For boss encounters, I'll generally use a monster that is immune to illusions and mind-affecting effects, or at least needs to have buffs dispelled before he'll be vulnerable.

Specific tactics you can use:
1) Use mixed groups of monsters, including some who are vulnerable, some who are resistant, and some who are immune. This enables the PC to use his spells, but not solve the encounter with a single standard action. An example would be a mixed group of one cleric with greater blindsight, two commanded undead with lifesense, a construct guardian, and two human warriors as bodyguards. The undead and constructs are immune to mind-affecting, the undead and caster can see through illusions, and the bodyguards are vulnerable to everything. Debuffing the caster makes him vulnerable to illusions, but no single illusion or AoE mind-affecting spell is going to solve this encounter.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-03-23, 01:45 PM
I actually suggest an old "Fight Fire With Fire" approach. Since you can outhink him (I hope), use a mirror image of him to fight himself?

TheCountAlucard
2010-03-23, 02:06 PM
The Deformity (Madness) Vile Feat lowers the character's Wisdom score by 4, but makes him immune to mind-affecting effects. Plus, once per minute, he can add his character level to a Will save as an immediate action.

Works pretty well with boss-types, in my experience.