[3.5] The Reserve Mage

[arguskos]

http://th02.deviantart.net/fs11/300W/i/2006/188/0/9/Scarlet_Mage_by_Ironshod.jpg
A reserve mage activating the Storm Bolt feat.

There are a multitude of paths to magical power. You can study books, worship gods, tap into primal songs, or simply shape spells through the force of your will. There is another path though, one that few walk, for it is the path of gradual yet continuous power: the reserve feats. A reserve mage is one who has learned to give themselves over to the power offered by reserve feats, body and soul.

Prerequisites:
Skills: Spellcraft 6 ranks.
Feats: At least one reserve feat.
Spellcasting: Able to cast 2nd level spells.
Special: Must have spent one entire adventure using nothing but their wits, equipment, and reserve feats, and not cast a single spell.

Hit Dice: d4
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifer.
The reserve mage's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

The Reserve Mage
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Reserve Power|---

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Reserve Feats|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Reserve Feats, Reserve Fuse|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Reserve Feats|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

5th|
+2|
+2|
+2|
+4|Reserve Feats, Master of Reservation|---[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Reserve mages gain no weapon or armor proficiencies.

Spellcasting: At 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level, reserve mages gain an increase in spells/day and spells known, as though they had gained a level in whatever spellcasting class they belonged to before taking levels in reserve mage.

Reserve Power (Ex): A reserve mage gains the amazing ability to act as a fountain of power for their reserve feats. The reserve mage uses their Reserve Mage level as the level of spells they are able to cast for purposes of selecting reserve feats. They are treated as always having a spell of a level of one higher than their normal maximum for purposes of activating reserve feats.

Reserve Feats: At 2nd level and each level thereafter, the reserve mage gains any two bonus reserve feats they qualify for as bonus feats.

Reserve Fuse (Ex): At 3rd level, the reserve mage learns how to activate multiple reserve feats at once. He can use a standard action to use two reserve feats instead of just one. Each feat acts as normal.

Master of Reservation (Ex): At 5th level, the reserve mage learns how to eke the best out of their reserve feats. The reserve mage's reserve feats are now Extraordinary instead of Supernatural. Further, they may use reserve feats as a swift action, at their option. The reserve mage may use Master of Reservation and Reserve Fuse together to use two reserve feats as a swift action.

[Temotei]

To-Come! I accidentally hit Post!!

Buahaha! Foiled again! :smallwink:

Real critique below.

Using reserve feats is fun, but losing three caster levels for it is a big punch to the face. While you are able to get some nice at-will effects from the feats (and you have, what, nine at least?), losing spellcasting ability is a pretty big disadvantage.

That said, I like the class because I like reserve feats. I was thinking about how they needed some supplements just two days ago, and now you've come to save the day. Fortunate circumstance.

The only problem I see text-wise is the bonus feat section. What happens if you don't qualify to take any reserve feats? Do you get bonus feats selectable from a different list? No feats at all? Do you save the feats for later until you do qualify?

[arguskos]

Using reserve feats is fun, but losing three caster levels for it is a big punch to the face. While you are able to get some nice at-will effects from the feats (and you have, what, nine at least?), losing spellcasting ability is a pretty big disadvantage.
Consider the following: Wizard 3/Reserve Mage 5/Wizard +12. You get 9th level spells, 9 reserve feats that are keyed off 9th level effects from level 8 forward, and generally kick ass.

Oh, and you can do it with Cleric too. :smallamused:

EDIT: Considering that failing to qualify is actually impossible assuming you follow standard entry (there are SEVEN reserve feats in CMage that only need 2nd level spells to qualify for), I don't care much about that possibility.

[Temotei]

There are a multitude of paths to magical power. You can study books, worship gods, tap into primal songs, or simply shape spells through the force of your will. There is another path though--one that few walk, for it is the path of gradual, yet continuous power: the reserve feats. A reserve mage is one who has learned to give themselves over to the power offered by reserve feats, body and soul.

Skill Points at Each Level
2 + Int modifer.
The reserve mage's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Fixed. The bold and underlined parts are my fixes.

[arguskos]

Fixed. The bold and underlined parts are my fixes.
Done. It's 2 AM here, so I didn't feel like doing it right dammit. :smalltongue:

[Innis Cabal]

I was initially going to raise the question about the three lost caster levels. But, your correct on its general power level.

The fact remains this PrC greatly helps Wizard, Wu Jen, Cleric and Druid, but totally bones Sorcerer and other spont. casters, who gain 9th level casting at 18th, not 17th. Which, with this PrC, they'll never see. That effectivly makes this PrC off limits to them, while giving the already top heavy and clearly better non-spont. casters way more toys to play with.

The above isn't so much a punch to the face for spont casters, but pushing them down an invalid down the stairs.

[Sereg]

It's certainly a nice concept. I would prefer it though if "one entire adventure" was changed to something a little more standardised after all, the number of encounters in an adventure varies rather dramatically.

[Temotei]

Done. It's 2 AM here, so I didn't feel like doing it right dammit. :smalltongue:

You'll do it my way and you'll like it! :smallcool: :smalltongue:

[arguskos]

I was initially going to raise the question about the three lost caster levels. But, your correct on its general power level.

The fact remains this PrC greatly helps Wizard, Wu Jen, Cleric and Druid, but totally bones Sorcerer and other spont. casters, who gain 9th level casting at 18th, not 17th. Which, with this PrC, they'll never see.
So? I was only pointing out that 9s are totally possible in some cases. It's not like Sorcs are REALLY hurting with only 8s anyways, given how powerful spells are anyways. This isn't meant to be a high-power PrC, just something fun for Reserve Feat fanatics.

Honestly, the build I was looking it for this was Wizard 3/Reserve Mage 5/gishycrap +12. I thought it might be a fun character to play, if un-optimized.

EDIT: Sereg, considering that I think of this PrC as a joke PrC and not something I'd actually expect to get to play, that was part of the joke for me, and a way to get people to have their DM ok the class. Besides, I think it's a fun challenge to get through a whole adventure (even just a few encounters perhaps) without using spells as a caster.

[Temotei]

So? I was only pointing out that 9s are totally possible in some cases. It's not like Sorcs are REALLY hurting with only 8s anyways, given how powerful spells are anyways. This isn't meant to be a high-power PrC, just something fun for Reserve Feat fanatics.

Honestly, the build I was looking it for this was Wizard 3/Reserve Mage 5/gishycrap +12. I thought it might be a fun character to play, if un-optimized.

Mmm...fun. I want to make a homebrew recruitment thread now.

[arguskos]

Mmm...fun. I want to make a homebrew recruitment thread now.
Dude, I'd totally play a Wizard/Cleric/Sorcerer/whatever-->Reserve Mage. It'd be, how do you say, "good times". :smallcool:

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The three lost caster levels are kind of a kick in the pants. Yeah, you're netting eight reserve feats by taking this class, but, most reserve feats are of the "do Xd6 damage, where X is based on whatever spell is left in reserve." That being said, I would think one caster level loss may suffice at first. That or maybe throw the second loss at 5th.

EDIT: Other options include giving it various class features that modify reserve feats, rather than just giving them more of them. Not sure what to do for that, but I'd kind of like to see someone be able to specialize in their chosen reserve feat(s) almost like a master specialist would do for his school of magic.

[arguskos]

I really disagree that losing three caster levels is all that bad. Spells already rule the damn roost, and 8th level stuff is plenty powerful as it stands.

However, what about if I changed Master of Reservation to an immediate action? In my mind, that more than makes it worth while.

Also, Thrice Dead Cat, I've thought about that, but I'm unsure how to "specialize" in a single reserve feat. I'll mull it over.

[DragoonWraith]

I really disagree that losing three caster levels is all that bad. Spells already rule the damn roost, and 8th level stuff is plenty powerful as it stands.
But that's meaningless when you compare it to the entry classes. Yes, it's still plenty powerful - but taking a PrC should never be a self-nerf. Ideally, taking a PrC or single-classing should be equally powerful options. Therefore, any lost caster levels should be made up for with class features.

I'm not convinced that you have. Three spellcasting levels is huge. In actual published material, there is not a single PrC I can think of that loses 3 spellcasting levels and is worth it. Incantatrix and Shadowcraft Mage would be worth it if they did lose the 3 levels, but they're pretty broken to begin with, and the Swiftblade loses 4 and is worth it for gishes, but this is not a gishy PrC by any means.

So it's a cool idea, but poorly balanced against the entry classes. And that's the only meaningful judge of balance I can think of for PrCs.

In other words, pretend its not a Wizard or Sorcerer entering - what if its a Warmage or Healer? Is it still balanced? (No, it's not)

[arguskos]

So it's a cool idea, but poorly balanced against the entry classes. And that's the only meaningful judge of balance I can think of for PrCs.
I've seen this argument before, and it's worth pointing out that you are arguing that something needs to balanced against an inherently broken and unbalanced yardstick. I don't agree with this. It seems backwards to me: "so guys, there are these overpowering classes. We should make their prestige classes even BETTER, so they don't feel useless!" Instead of: "so guys, there are these overpowering classes. We should have there be a trade off of their inherent power for interesting class features in their prestige classes."

You tell me which is better for the health of the game. I'm betting you're not going to argue that all caster PrCs need to be at Incantrix levels of strength. :smallwink:


In other words, pretend its not a Wizard or Sorcerer entering - what if its a Warmage or Healer? Is it still balanced? (No, it's not)
Actually, yeah, I'd say it is. The Warmage and Healer gain an array of effects they couldn't duplicate before, since the Reserve Mage automatically powers any reserve feat they take, such as the flight one, or the teleporting one, or the summoning one, regardless if you have an appropriate spell readied. The Warmage makes out a little worse (lots of damaging reserve feats), but the Healer only has one reserve feat that overlaps with what it can do (Touch of Healing).

[Sila Prirode]

You can still go only 4 levels in this class. Sure you lose on awesome ability, but on Sorceror and similiar casters you get 9 Reserve feats (keyed of level 8 spells), and level 9 spells.
That can't be that bad.

[FishAreWet]

If it has full casting it's still hardly worth taking. There are much simpler ways to last longer with a Wizard and with spontaneous casters it's a non-issue.

Have it lose 1 or 2 caster levels tops. Homebrew some reserve feats that are more then Xd6 damage. To many of them are the same thing.

Maybe a swift action ability to sacrifice spell slots to fuel the Reserve feats past 9th level? As in, you have a Heightened Fireball sitting in your 9th level slot so your Firesomething feat does 9d6 fire damage as a standard action. As a swift action you may sacrifice a spellslot/prepared spell and you may add that level to your effective spellslot. So you sacrifice a 5th level slot and now your Reserve feat does 14d6 that round? Didn't explain it well and it needs a lot of rewording but you get what I mean I think.

I think it's a good idea because one of the issues with Reserve feats is that they scale horribly at high level. 9d6 is poor damage at level 12. Let alone level 18... AND if you're using all those reserve feats instead of spell slots... you're wasting the spell slots! You gotta use them on something right?

[arguskos]

You can still go only 4 levels in this class. Sure you lose on awesome ability, but on Sorceror and similiar casters you get 9 Reserve feats (keyed of level 8 spells), and level 9 spells.
That can't be that bad.
That too. Also, you'd get 7 Reserve Feats. You don't get any at level 1.


If it has full casting it's still hardly worth taking. There are much simpler ways to last longer with a Wizard and with spontaneous casters it's a non-issue.

Have it lose 1 or 2 caster levels tops. Homebrew some reserve feats that are more then Xd6 damage. To many of them are the same thing.

Maybe a swift action ability to sacrifice spell slots to fuel the Reserve feats past 9th level? As in, you have a Heightened Fireball sitting in your 9th level slot so your Firesomething feat does 9d6 fire damage as a standard action. As a swift action you may sacrifice a spellslot/prepared spell and you may add that level to your effective spellslot. So you sacrifice a 5th level slot and now your Reserve feat does 14d6 that round? Didn't explain it well and it needs a lot of rewording but you get what I mean I think.

I think it's a good idea because one of the issues with Reserve feats is that they scale horribly at high level. 9d6 is poor damage at level 12. Let alone level 18... AND if you're using all those reserve feats instead of spell slots... you're wasting the spell slots! You gotta use them on something right?
Fish, I think you missed part of what Reserve Power does. You don't NEED spells prepped to power your reserve feats with this class. Hell, you could be completely empty, and as long as you have 5 levels of Reserve Mage, you still can be using all your reserve feats as if you have a 9th level spell prepped that powers all of them.

However, yes, I do generally agree that many of the reserve feats are weaksauce (the damaging ones). I am happy to make more of them, but I'd need time and effort and it's out of the scope of this specific thread, I think. Perhaps I'll open a new one to debate new reserve feats.

[FishAreWet]

I did get that I was just using it as an example. Most Reserve feats are standard actions, leaving you with only Swift actions taking your spell slots. You'll end up with a ton extra per day. Which is why I think some type of nova ability would be great.

Or maybe combining two Reserve feats into a single action?

[arguskos]

I did get that I was just using it as an example. Most Reserve feats are standard actions, leaving you with only Swift actions taking your spell slots. You'll end up with a ton extra per day. Which is why I think some type of nova ability would be great.

Or maybe combining two Reserve feats into a single action?
Now, that is a good idea. I like the idea of mixing reserve feats together. I can add that in, at say, 3rd level. Let's call it "Reserve Fuse" and call it a day.

EDIT: Done. Also, credit given for the idea (I try and do that when I can).

[Mulletmanalive]

I think i'm actually going to try playing this, as soon as I find a gaming group again. Given that i'll only be needing one level of Wizard to get into it and I won't even need to be any good as a spellcaster, I'll be laughing all the way to the bank.

It's like having most of Warlock condenced into 5 levels. Well, without the gittish abilities.

That said, I might just try to pursuade a GM to allow me to alter the Duskblade to use this thing's abilities over more levels rather than having spellcasting [I like simple in play; not that I can't but I like the turns to roll around quicker]

Any suggestion on what such a Duskblade patch might look like?

[arguskos]

I think i'm actually going to try playing this, as soon as I find a gaming group again. Given that i'll only be needing one level of Wizard to get into it and I won't even need to be any good as a spellcaster, I'll be laughing all the way to the bank.
Hey awesome! Let me know how it goes!


That said, I might just try to pursuade a GM to allow me to alter the Duskblade to use this thing's abilities over more levels rather than having spellcasting [I like simple in play; not that I can't but I like the turns to roll around quicker]

Any suggestion on what such a Duskblade patch might look like?
Hmm. I guess you could cut the spellcasting entirely, and increase the BAB to full. That's a really rough Duskblade-friendly patch. It does mean you're going to be like the worst caster possible, but then again, you ARE a Duskblade. It'd segue very nicely into Abjurant Champion though, assuming you have enough Abjuration effects as a Duskblade.

[DragoonWraith]

I've seen this argument before, and it's worth pointing out that you are arguing that something needs to balanced against an inherently broken and unbalanced yardstick. I don't agree with this. It seems backwards to me: "so guys, there are these overpowering classes. We should make their prestige classes even BETTER, so they don't feel useless!" Instead of: "so guys, there are these overpowering classes. We should have there be a trade off of their inherent power for interesting class features in their prestige classes."

You tell me which is better for the health of the game. I'm betting you're not going to argue that all caster PrCs need to be at Incantrix levels of strength. :smallwink:
Nor am I - Incantatrix is more powerful than straight Wizard. That is precisely what I didn't say - I said PrCs should be equally powerful. The Incantatrix isn't.

If the base class is overpowered, fix the base class - stealth nerfs via PrC is bad design. Unless you force every Wizard to PrC into some underpowered PrC, because otherwise it's essentially punishing players for doing anything interesting with their build, and that's not good. PrCs are not supposed to rebalance something that's already imbalanced.

[arguskos]

Nor am I - Incantatrix is more powerful than straight Wizard. That is precisely what I didn't say - I said PrCs should be equally powerful. The Incantatrix isn't.
Your argument could easily be interpreted that Incantrix is an example of a good PrC. I'm glad to see that was not your intent, since uh, if it was, I'd hit you with a book.


If the base class is overpowered, fix the base class - stealth nerfs via PrC is bad design. Unless you force every Wizard to PrC into some underpowered PrC, because otherwise it's essentially punishing players for doing anything interesting with their build, and that's not good. PrCs are not supposed to rebalance something that's already imbalanced.
I agree completely, and I have balanced Wizards in my game (by altering a massive number of broken spells, mostly). I balance things with the assumption that people have done the same for their games, as suits them.

Also, I disagree with the assumption that I'm forcing anyone to do anything. Wizards in my games can be Wiz 20, Wiz 5/Argent Savant 5/Fighter 10, Wiz 5/Incantrix 10/whatever 5 or whatever the hell else they want. I am unconcerned with their power levels, merely that they can have fun doing what they want and that they are always useful to the group in some way. To date, I've not encountered anyone ever who was useless with 15/20 casting, much less 17/20 or better. I make classes with this in mind: usefulness and fun over the caster's career. Given that a Reserve Mage build is still plenty useful from 1-20, and probably pretty fun to play, I think I've succeeded.

Finally, the concept that this is a "stealth nerf" is unfair. It's not a stealth nerf, it's a cost for unique abilities that cannot be replicated anywhere else by any other means. There's no such thing as a free lunch, after all. :smallwink:

[JoshuaZ]

It might be ok to lose a single caster level, but 3 seems too much. Also, the special requirement as written is a bit vague. I'd either remove it or replace it with something like "must have advanced one level without casting any spells in combat" or something similar. But even that's a bit weird. I'm not sure the special requirement is that helpful.

[arguskos]

It might be ok to lose a single caster level, but 3 seems too much. Also, the special requirement as written is a bit vague. I'd either remove it or replace it with something like "must have advanced one level without casting any spells in combat" or something similar. But even that's a bit weird. I'm not sure the special requirement is that helpful.
I already addressed the concept of the special requirement. Feel free to waive it as you see fit. :smallwink:

As for the three caster levels, Dragoon and I are having a lively debate on that subject just now. Feel free to join in or just observe. :smallsmile:

[JoshuaZ]

Finally, the concept that this is a "stealth nerf" is unfair. It's not a stealth nerf, it's a cost for unique abilities that cannot be replicated anywhere else by any other means. There's no such thing as a free lunch, after all. :smallwink:

Here's the real issue: It might have a cost for a unique ability but that cost shouldn't be too high. I don't think for example that you'd consider this a reasonable option if it didn't advance casting *at all.* If you feel a need for such a cost, then losing 1 level of casting makes sense. But losing three means that you quickly fall behind a sorcerer or wizard of the same level in what you can do. Since many classes rarely run out of spells or spell slots (sorcerers, dread necromancers and warmages for example) the difference becomes all the more apparent. The issue becomes even more extreme when you take into account that the straight spellcaster is getting extra spell slots when he takes those 5 levels overall.

Or to consider this another way: If you lose 1 level of spellcasting then this still can work well with a PrC that loses a few levels of spellcasting. But if you lose 3 levels with this then it becomes almost fatal to take this PrC if you are taking levels in any other PrC that loses casting.

[Melayl]

I think the ability to use Reserve Feats (as though you had a 9th level spell of appropriate type prepared) even after you've cast all your daily spells is pretty damned useful, actually. A Reserve Mage is never powerless. Even if they've not been able to get their 8 hours for weeks or months, they still have power at their beck and call.

Is it worth 3 levels of casting? I don't know. I have a habit of reducing spellcaster power in my games (when I game), too. I'd play one of these, though.

[ErrantX]

For what was supposed to be a joke class, you've made something quite lively and fun. Good job.

As far as balance, I like this for the myriad of reasons already mentioned. I will say that nerfing 3 levels is a little much, I'd suggest flipping it around and giving it no progression on 2nd and 4th level, or drop it from 1st and 5th. That way 9th level can be achieved still by spontaneous casters.

Remember, thou shalt not lose caster levels is a holy mantra, unless it's really just worth it. This is definitely worth 2 levels... but I don't think I'd go 3.

-X

[arguskos]

Or to consider this another way: If you lose 1 level of spellcasting then this still can work well with a PrC that loses a few levels of spellcasting. But if you lose 3 levels with this then it becomes almost fatal to take this PrC if you are taking levels in any other PrC that loses casting.
Why is it "almost fatal"? You still have powerful spells, and you can act with impunity in an antimagic field, and you never run out of gas no matter what, even in the most unlikely circumstances, and you STILL HAVE POWERFUL SPELLS. Yes, you are slowed in your acquisition of these spells, but you get them nevertheless, and have a number of advantages that other casters don't have.

The argument seems to be: slowed progression is as good as no progression and makes a prestige class forever worthless. I am not sure I really understand why this is the case, since you still get everything good, and other benefits aside, and have plenty of time for other good stuff.

I think my argument boils down to this: it's an option. Options are good. Some options are better than other options, but they all have a place. Where's the difficulty here?

Also, no one addressed my proposed change to Master of Reservations: make reserve feats immediate actions. I have a feeling that would definitely make this worth losing three levels.

[ErrantX]

Also, no one addressed my proposed change to Master of Reservations: make reserve feats immediate actions. I have a feeling that would definitely make this worth losing three levels.

That's definitely not good enough. Reserve feats just aren't that amazing. I'd rather have the 9th level spells then immediate action reserve feats. That's why Master of the Unseen Hand (CW) is such a trash class; no advancement.

-X

[FishAreWet]

Master of Reservation (Ex): At 5th level the Reserve Mage is able to use Reserve Feats as an Extraordinary ability by spending a Swift Action. This lasts for 1 round.

And make sure that all the other ability granted by the class are (Ex) so it's clear they may be used in an AMF or similar effect. I think this makes the class definitely worth considering. 18d6 blasting at will in an AMF is worth 3 spellcasting levels. Or 45ft teleports.

[arguskos]

Master of Reservation (Ex): At 5th level the Reserve Mage is able to use Reserve Feats as an Extraordinary ability by spending a Swift Action. This lasts for 1 round.

And make sure that all the other ability granted by the class are (Ex) so it's clear they may be used in an AMF or similar effect. I think this makes the class definitely worth considering. 18d6 blasting at will in an AMF is worth 3 spellcasting levels. Or 45ft teleports.
Considering that Spellcasting doesn't get a (Ex) tag (NO MATTER WHAT MMV SAYS), I didn't think these needed them either. But, I'll add it anyways. Also, thanks for the rewrite on Master of Reservation. It was early, I was tired. :smallcool:

[JoshuaZ]

Why is it "almost fatal"? You still have powerful spells, and you can act with impunity in an antimagic field, and you never run out of gas no matter what, even in the most unlikely circumstances, and you STILL HAVE POWERFUL SPELLS. Yes, you are slowed in your acquisition of these spells, but you get them nevertheless, and have a number of advantages that other casters don't have.


Right. But powerful spells and more powerful spells aren't the same thing. Higher level spells are just that good. They have higher saves and can do more. (Comparing 9th level and 8th level spells in most schools of magic makes this very apparent). Moreover, caster level progression means also that you have more choices in what spells.



The argument seems to be: slowed progression is as good as no progression and makes a prestige class forever worthless. I am not sure I really understand why this is the case, since you still get everything good, and other benefits aside, and have plenty of time for other good stuff.


No. The argument is that there is a range between full progression and no progression. Unfortunately, as a measure of pure power, as you move to the no progression side, the power level drops at a very fast rate. So it isn't that slow progression is no progression but rather that slow progression isn't as good. That's all the more so for spontaneous casters who simply can't take this class and get 9th level spells at all.



I think my argument boils down to this: it's an option. Options are good. Some options are better than other options, but they all have a place. Where's the difficulty here?

Because options should still be balanced with each other at a rough level. As I used in my earlier example, this argument would work anywhere on the continuum even if it gave no progression. Or for that matter, the above argument also would support a hideously broken option (consider the hypothetical of a PrC that was 1 level and allowed you wish at will). Options need to be roughly balanced with each other in order to be worth taking. That doesn't mean they need to be the exact same power level. But they should be roughly the same level. If they strongest argument you have against a balance point is "well it's an option" then that's essentially saying the balance is off. In this case, it isn't at all hard to fix.



Also, no one addressed my proposed change to Master of Reservations: make reserve feats immediate actions. I have a feeling that would definitely make this worth losing three levels.

Eh. It is helpful but it still isn't worth losing three levels. Higher level spells are just that good.

[Mulletmanalive]

Personally, i'm just amused by the Theuge element i didn't notice first off.

You have this level 2-9 uncastable spell slot sitting in your head allowing you to use Reserve Feats that counts as having every school and subtype descriptor...

I'm so spending a couple of those free Reserve feats on those healing ones from Complete Champion. I can throw both a tiny fireball and heal myself a small number of hp every round! At 5th level, I can do even more.

Funniest thing is that I can finally do a double jump in D&D :smallbiggrin: [I can use a hybrid action to use an offensive action and use the air-jump reserve, followed by another use of it as a Swift action]. To me, that's just great!

Edit: Oh, and for reference, a) i agree with the trimmed casting and b) the wording of the 5th level ability is messy. It makes it look like you're spending the Swift action to turn the feats extraordinary.

"as an Extraordinary Swift Action" maybe...

Or "as a Swift action; this use counts as an Extraordinary ability rather than a Supernatural one."

[arguskos]

Eh. It is helpful but it still isn't worth losing three levels. Higher level spells are just that good.
So... now the argument is that since you don't get 9s as fast as a straight wizard, this isn't playable? I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense to me. I admit, the fact that sorcerers and other delayed casters inadvertently don't get 9s is a problem... but more with their progression, and less with this PrC. Better to fix that at the source.

I just don't feel that every prestige class should give the most bang for the buck. It doesn't sit right with me. However, to end the forsaken argument, I'll just go change it so ya'll will be happy. I don't agree, but it doesn't matter. :smallsigh:

EDIT: Done. It's a 4/5 caster now.

[Mulletmanalive]

I'm still using it as originally posted.

[ErrantX]

EDIT: Done. It's a 4/5 caster now.

Eh...

Levels 2-4 should have casting, drop it on 1st and 5th. 2 lost levels is well worth it for this class, getting only 1 dropped level is a steal. Or only get one reserve feat on bonus feat levels.

-X

[Eldonauran]

Levels 2-4 should have casting, drop it on 1st and 5th. 2 lost levels is well worth it for this class, getting only 1 dropped level is a steal. Or only get one reserve feat on bonus feat levels.

I agree with this. Two lost levels if perfect (still get 9th level spells as spontaneous casters)

[FishAreWet]

And I'd lose the level at 3rd. If it's at 5th no one will take it.

[ErrantX]

And I'd lose the level at 3rd. If it's at 5th no one will take it.

Then we have EXACTLY what was originally posted.

Make the capstone worth it, and then people will take it, that's all. Look at Swiftblade's Innervated Speed for example.

-X

[arguskos]

I just can't win. Several posters were arguing for only one lost level, now people want two instead of three. :smallsigh:

Now, casting progresses on 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. Does anything else need tweaking or changing, or is this actually decent now?

[ErrantX]

I just can't win. Several posters were arguing for only one lost level, now people want two instead of three. :smallsigh:

Now, casting progresses on 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. Does anything else need tweaking or changing, or is this actually decent now?

You're good :)

-X

[arguskos]

You're good :)

-X
Good. Now, I can return to the Blade Lord project; and perhaps get my Alchemy/Poison rules hammered out; and then make the counterpart to the Extinguisher (the Illuminator); and then maybe make some more reserve feats.

I have a very full plate, you see. :smallamused: I didn't really expect this PrC to go anywhere. I'm still amazed it got a response on this scale. :smallconfused:

[Knaight]

Well, it was interesting. I arrived a wee bit late to critique, its fine at this point, but the concept is brilliant.

[Eldonauran]

I have a very full plate, you see. :smallamused: I didn't really expect this PrC to go anywhere. I'm still amazed it got a response on this scale. :smallconfused:

That's because it was a brilliant idea, even if made only as a joke. This kind of prestige class should have been made when reserve feats were created. I will, most definately, be allowing this into my games, homebrewed or not.

[arguskos]

That's because it was a brilliant idea, even if made only as a joke. This kind of prestige class should have been made when reserve feats were created. I will, most definately, be allowing this into my games, homebrewed or not.
I always did feel reserve feats didn't get enough love. Actually, I might go ahead and start a thread taking suggestions for new reserve feats. I'm happy to do the legwork, but I don't have many ideas, since a lot of stuff seems to have been covered already.

[JoshuaZ]

I always did feel reserve feats didn't get enough love. Actually, I might go ahead and start a thread taking suggestions for new reserve feats. I'm happy to do the legwork, but I don't have many ideas, since a lot of stuff seems to have been covered already.

Hmm, I'm not aware of any reserve feats that have to do with necromancy. A reserve feat that allowed temporary animation of corpses with not many hit die would be nice.

[arguskos]

Hmm, I'm not aware of any reserve feats that have to do with necromancy. A reserve feat that allowed temporary animation of corpses with not many hit die would be nice.
Perhaps a limited fear-based reserve feat too. And an Inflict-based one as well.

I've been trying to figure out a good illusion based one, but so far have been unable to.

[DragoonWraith]

The image line seems kind of perfect for it. If you have a 2nd level Illusion (Figment) spell available, Silent Image at will; 4th level, Minor Image; 6th level, Major Image; 9th level, Persistent Image. Maybe? I'm not really that familiar with the balance on Reserve Feats, so I don't really know how good this is compared to them, but it would certainly be useful.

[arguskos]

The image line seems kind of perfect for it. If you have a 2nd level Illusion (Figment) spell available, Silent Image at will; 4th level, Minor Image; 6th level, Major Image; 9th level, Persistent Image. Maybe? I'm not really that familiar with the balance on Reserve Feats, so I don't really know how good this is compared to them, but it would certainly be useful.
That probably is too powerful for a reserve feat, honestly, and reserve feats don't really duplicate spells that directly.

[DragoonWraith]

Summon Elemental (Complete Mage) comes pretty close, and is what I was basing it on.

[Kobold-Bard]

I love Reserve Feats.

I'm loving this. With your permission I may even use it in a character I've been building and couldn't decide on some class stuff.

[Mulletmanalive]

I doubt anyone who posts on this forum would have any objection to you using their work...

Though some [myself included] demand tribute in the form of feedback!

[peacenlove]

Spellcasting: At 2nd and 4th level, reserve mages gain an increase in spells/day and spells known, as though they had gained a level in whatever spellcasting class they belonged to before taking levels in reserve mage.

You need to edit this so it is consistent with the table.

[arguskos]

I doubt anyone who posts on this forum would have any objection to you using their work...

Though some [myself included] demand tribute in the form of feedback!
K-B, what Mulletmanalive said, here. Feel free, but do let me know. Also, didn't you have a player in a PbP use one of my base classes? How'd that go?

peacenlove, I'll do that. I meant to do so before, but forgot. :smallwink:

[Kobold-Bard]

K-B, what Mulletmanalive said, here. Feel free, but do let me know. Also, didn't you have a player in a PbP use one of my base classes? How'd that go?

peacenlove, I'll do that. I meant to do so before, but forgot. :smallwink:

I do, but I foolishly let them combine your Summoner with Malconvoker, so his ridiculous pair of Balor's pwn the world. I'm just grateful they decided to go to Elysium so he had to leave them behind for a while.

[arguskos]

I do, but I foolishly let them combine your Summoner with Malconvoker, so his ridiculous pair of Balor's pwn the world. I'm just grateful they decided to go to Elysium so he had to leave them behind for a while.
That was unwise of you. :smalltongue: However, not unexpected.

Also, if you DO use the Reserve Mage, lemme know how he rolls. I'll try and get up a Reserve Focus PrC today (inspired by Thrice Dead Cat) and maybe a thread for some more reserve feats.

EDIT: Ok, that stuff will be late tonight or sometime tomorrow.

[Godskook]

Hey, just browsing and I thought I'd necromance this thread while it was still legal to do so, considering your reserve feats are fresh to page 1.


There are a multitude of paths to magical power. You can study books, worship gods, tap into primal songs, or simply shape spells through the force of your will. There is another path though, one that few walk, for it is the path of gradual yet continuous power: the reserve feats. A reserve mage is one who has learned to give themselves over to the power offered by reserve feats, body and soul.

The bolded part is incredibly meta. Why the hell are you referencing crunch terms in the fluff?

Also, the thing reads weird, as if a Reserve Mage doesn't study books, worship gods, or shape spells to the force of their will. However, given that the expected entry is wizard, that seems very odd, since a wizard *DOES* study books, can worship gods(and gain spells from it, via Arcane Disciple), and even with two lost caster levels, will still be bending spells through the force of his will quite well, still gaining 9ths by L20.


Prerequisites:
Skills: Spellcraft 6 ranks.
Feats: At least one reserve feat.
Spellcasting: Able to cast 2nd level spells.
Special: Must have spent one entire adventure using nothing but their wits, equipment, and reserve feats, and not cast a single spell.

It seems weird that the class has a more wizard friendly attitude and yet in WotC, Sorcerers make the better reserve feat users, thanks to Heighten spell. Probably nothing that can be done about it here, though.

"Adventure" is a weird term to put in a requirement list, and possibly prone to DM-screwage both intentionally and accidentally(Oops, you've gained 3 levels without completing this adventure, so no, you don't qualify for Reserve Mage yet). I'd at least drop it down to "encounter", but really, do you think this class is so powerful that it warrants an annoying roleplay requirement to make it hard for someone to get into it?


The reserve mage's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

I suggest adding Bluff to the list, to help appease Sorcerers.


Spellcasting: At 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level, reserve mages gain an increase in spells/day and spells known, as though they had gained a level in whatever spellcasting class they belonged to before taking levels in reserve mage.

Two lost caster levels? Is it really that powerful?


Reserve Power (Ex): A reserve mage gains the amazing ability to act as a fountain of power for their reserve feats. The reserve mage uses their Reserve Mage level as the level of spells they are able to cast for purposes of selecting reserve feats. Additionally, they are treated as always having a spell of level equal to twice their reserve mage level prepared (max 9th level) for purposes of activating reserve feats.

1.At first I thought this was essentially the Sorcerer's Heighten Spell trick made into a class ability, and if it was, that's annoying to remove the Sorc's only advantage on the wizard without giving the Sorcerer anything in return.

2.AND THEN I REALIZED: This kicks in immediately instead of waiting until you can actually cast spells of X level. In other words, you've unlocked max-damage reserve feats at 8th ECL. All told, an average of 126 damage per round, when a barbarian of that level is probably only walking around with 94 hp. Since I don't think this is RAI, that just means editing is needed. But that brings me back to the previous point.

3.Does this satisfy the type of spell requirement or just level? For example, do I need to even know a Sonic spell to use Clap of Thunder once I have Reserve Power?


Reserve Feats: At 2nd level and each level thereafter, the reserve mage gains any two bonus reserve feats they qualify for as bonus feats.

That's a good amount of reserve feats you're giving out.


Reserve Fuse (Ex): At 3rd level, the reserve mage learns how to activate multiple reserve feats at once. He can use a standard action to use two reserve feats instead of just one. Each feat acts as normal.

Can you designate a sequence so that reserve mage blasters can utilize energy gestalt with this?


Master of Reservation (Ex): At 5th level, the reserve mage learns how to eke the best out of their reserve feats. The Reserve Mage is able to use Reserve Feats as an Extraordinary ability by spending a Swift Action. This lasts for 1 round. The reserve mage may use Master of Reservation and Reserve Fuse together to use two reserve feats as a swift action.

Aside from AMF, what benefits are there to making Reserve Feats (Ex) instead of (Su)?

Also, that reads weird. Can a Reserve Mage use two reserve feats as (Ex) abilities using up a swift action, or is it a one or the other kind of thing?

And finally, my thoughts on viability: Well, as noted earlier, at max levels, a Reserve Mage is capable of dropping 36d6 damage every turn. That's decent damage for a blaster(comparable to a DFA, actually).

Now I want to play a generalist with this class.

[arguskos]

The bolded part is incredibly meta. Why the hell are you referencing crunch terms in the fluff?

Also, the thing reads weird, as if a Reserve Mage doesn't study books, worship gods, or shape spells to the force of their will. However, given that the expected entry is wizard, that seems very odd, since a wizard *DOES* study books, can worship gods(and gain spells from it, via Arcane Disciple), and even with two lost caster levels, will still be bending spells through the force of his will quite well, still gaining 9ths by L20.
It's fluff, it wasn't key to the class. Change it if you'd like, but I personally wasn't really concerned with it being metathinking or whatnot. Alternatively, mages would know about the power source that is the reserve feat (trade a spell known for power all day), and logically some would specialize in them.


It seems weird that the class has a more wizard friendly attitude and yet in WotC, Sorcerers make the better reserve feat users, thanks to Heighten spell. Probably nothing that can be done about it here, though.
Meh, Sorcerers get 9s with the class too, it really doesn't matter much.


"Adventure" is a weird term to put in a requirement list, and possibly prone to DM-screwage both intentionally and accidentally(Oops, you've gained 3 levels without completing this adventure, so no, you don't qualify for Reserve Mage yet). I'd at least drop it down to "encounter", but really, do you think this class is so powerful that it warrants an annoying roleplay requirement to make it hard for someone to get into it?
I like such requirements, they force players to actually TALK to their DMs about taking prestige classes, which I think is only a good thing. It's obviously DM discretion as to what an "adventure" qualifies for, though.


I suggest adding Bluff to the list, to help appease Sorcerers.
Doesn't thematically make sense, and Sorcerers are fine here anyways.


Two lost caster levels? Is it really that powerful?
It had more, but I was bitched out until I changed it. Yes, it is worth losing two caster levels for.


1.At first I thought this was essentially the Sorcerer's Heighten Spell trick made into a class ability, and if it was, that's annoying to remove the Sorc's only advantage on the wizard without giving the Sorcerer anything in return.
Keep reading.


2.AND THEN I REALIZED: This kicks in immediately instead of waiting until you can actually cast spells of X level. In other words, you've unlocked max-damage reserve feats at 8th ECL. All told, an average of 126 damage per round, when a barbarian of that level is probably only walking around with 94 hp. Since I don't think this is RAI, that just means editing is needed. But that brings me back to the previous point.
Considering that blasting is sub-par ANYWAYS, I don't really think that's an issue. Also, there are FOUR saves to consider, which a Barbarian is going to have in his favor, since he'll make at least a few, and take reduced damage. Combine with the fact that these are all energy types (easily reduced) and that damage starts to shrink rapidly.


3.Does this satisfy the type of spell requirement or just level? For example, do I need to even know a Sonic spell to use Clap of Thunder once I have Reserve Power?
Both, and technically no.


That's a good amount of reserve feats you're giving out.
Sure is.


Can you designate a sequence so that reserve mage blasters can utilize energy gestalt with this?
No, because Energy Gestalt only works with actual spells, which reserve feats are not.


Aside from AMF, what benefits are there to making Reserve Feats (Ex) instead of (Su)?
None, but that was the big bonus. Also, you don't have to make concentration checks for Ex abilities (I think).


Also, that reads weird. Can a Reserve Mage use two reserve feats as (Ex) abilities using up a swift action, or is it a one or the other kind of thing?
Yes, they can, letting you get 4 in a turn.


And finally, my thoughts on viability: Well, as noted earlier, at max levels, a Reserve Mage is capable of dropping 36d6 damage every turn. That's decent damage for a blaster(comparable to a DFA, actually).
That was the concept: make them blasters worth the time. However, better is mixing things such as Dimensional Jumper or other debuff/buff reserves in there.


Now I want to play a generalist with this class.
Glad to hear you liked it (I think...?). :smallamused:

[Godskook]

Considering that blasting is sub-par ANYWAYS, I don't really think that's an issue. Also, there are FOUR saves to consider, which a Barbarian is going to have in his favor, since he'll make at least a few, and take reduced damage. Combine with the fact that these are all energy types (easily reduced) and that damage starts to shrink rapidly.

1.So a ECL 8 wizard is exactly as powerful with reserve feats as a ECL 20 wizard is? That's seems like really bad design to me.

2.Neither Storm Bolt or Acidic Splatter require a save. Given that those are the popular 'nobody resists them' elements that still do full damage at a range, odds are a Reserve Mage is starting with them.

3.Assuming the Reserve Mage uses a save, it'll probably be DC 25+, which at ECL 8, a Barbarian might only have a +6 to his reflex saves, being generous.

4.Resistance 5, to a single energy type, is approximately a quarter of PC WBL. But let's assume Aasimar. Reserve Mage is still doing lethal no-save damage to a Barbarian without even expending resources.

5.36d6 at ECL 8 isn't blasting, its SoD, without the save. I've heard told that 6*ECL is appropriate single-target damage in D&D, but 126 damage at ECL 8 is closer to 15*ECL.

6.DFAs get a 55d6 cannon at late-game, but it has quite a few limitations on it, including the inability to use their breath weapon two rounds in a row, so if the first blast doesn't drop them, a DFA is only doing ~27d6 damage per round.


Both, and technically no.

That's a self-contradicting answer.


That was the concept: make them blasters worth the time. However, better is mixing things such as Dimensional Jumper or other debuff/buff reserves in there.

Glad to hear you liked it (I think...?). :smallamused:

I do like the overall class. What I don't like can be fixed simply by saying:

Reserve Power (Ex): A reserve mage gains the amazing ability to act as a fountain of power for their reserve feats. The reserve mage uses their Reserve Mage level as the level of spells they are able to cast for purposes of selecting reserve feats. They are treated as always having a spell of a level of one higher than their normal maximum for purposes of activating reserve feats.

(I added a boost to make up for the limitation)

[arguskos]

points
Fine. In the interest of not debating this further, since I will not win (I didn't win the caster level arguments earlier), I'll just change it.


That's a self-contradicting answer.
The ability makes it so you count as having both the spell level and proper descriptor at all times, even if you don't. Where's the contradiction here?


Reserve Power (Ex): A reserve mage gains the amazing ability to act as a fountain of power for their reserve feats. The reserve mage uses their Reserve Mage level as the level of spells they are able to cast for purposes of selecting reserve feats. They are treated as always having a spell of a level of one higher than their normal maximum for purposes of activating reserve feats.
Done. Note that this is a fairly major nerf to the class, but, ok, attitudes seem to be that it is overpowered, and so the nerf is reasonable.

[Knaight]

At the very least allow the reserve mage to always cast from the highest level slot available. Said nerf is well beyond what is necessary. Something like "additionally they are always treated as having a spell of twice their reserve mage level prepared for the purpose of reserve feats, limited by the highest level spell that can be cast by the Reserve Mage."

Maybe even work something in there that states the highest level spell that can be cast assuming full progression.

[Mulletmanalive]

Knaight, You're basically saying the ability that the class used to have.

For what it's worth, i think Godsook is wrong. The POINT of this class was to bring reserve feats into the spotlight. At 8th, they're 6th level casters but can throw 9d6 micro-fireballs. Acid Splash is a touch attack and only then marginally more powerful than the Orb of Acid that a full caster would have at that level and won't get any more powerful. Ever.

So far, i've sacrificed access to 4th level spells and have a CL 2 below what i would otherwise have to be able to do that... come 9th, it'll be lagging behind the fireball spell in destructive power by some margin and you still have to be damn close to your enemies, while denied your major protective buffs...

A compromise might be to require an extra rank, maybe two of the skill prerequisite, but that's going to cause the "oh no, my precious caster levels" bit to become even stronger.

[Godskook]

For what it's worth, i think Godsook is wrong. The POINT of this class was to bring reserve feats into the spotlight. At 8th, they're 6th level casters but can throw 9d6 micro-fireballs. Acid Splash is a touch attack and only then marginally more powerful than the Orb of Acid that a full caster would have at that level and won't get any more powerful. Ever.

You're not comparing apples to apples. A full-caster using an Orb of Acid can do 8d6 damage a round for a few rounds per day. A Reserve Mage using the original version can do 36d6 per round, indefinitely. My suggested revision can do 16d6 damage per round, indefinitely. So at the capstone, the suggested revision is doing twice as well as a standard caster. He's also on-par with a disingtegrate. By level 20, the suggested revision overtakes the original, dealing an extra 4d6 damage per round.

[Mulletmanalive]

geez, this forum and it's lack of tabs.

Two points caused me to miss your point. First, your secondary component is not distinguished from the core point. A "Secondly," "further" or "at higher levels" would fix this. Possibly an "at fifth level and beyond."

Second, I keep missing the point of that fifth level ability because its wording still hasn't been revised. I still read it and think "woo, i can spend a Swift action to get the ability to use these things as an Extraordinary action!"

Two uses of a reserve feat, ignoring AMF is, what, 18d6 damage? I can't think of a way of matching that until 9th and that's on a short burn, though with a significantly longer range, it must be pointed out.


Reserve Power: A Reserve Mage has an ability allowing them to mimic stored spell energy. As a result, they count as having memorised at all times a spell with every descriptor and school of a level equal to the higher of their Reserve Mage level or their highest Spell Level +1. This spell exists only for the purposes of utilising Reserve Feats, but can be drained like a spell. Reinstating it requires a Full action.

How about that? I've tried to keep it clear and concise and heck, the class now has a minor vulnerability to things like Kellus' Viper class...

[Siosilvar]

Best fix, in my opinion, is that you need to burn a spell slot (any will do) to use the swift action reserve and both reserve feats have the effective spell level set equal to the used spell's level (possibly +1).

[Godskook]

How about that? I've tried to keep it clear and concise and heck, the class now has a minor vulnerability to things like Kellus' Viper class...

Functionally equivalent to my suggestion, oddly enough, except it also grants a bona-fide spell slot.

[DracoDei]

Best fix, in my opinion, is that you need to burn a spell slot (any will do) to use the swift action reserve and both reserve feats have the effective spell level set equal to the used spell's level (possibly +1).

Burn spell slots seems counter to the concepts of Reserve feats, but I haven't been following this thread TOO closely, so take this with a grain of salt...

[Mulletmanalive]

Functionally equivalent to my suggestion, oddly enough, except it also grants a bona-fide spell slot.

Actually, it was just an attempt to clean up your wording. Only reason i made it an actual spell slot was because something in my head says that weaknesses, however minor, make for great encounters if not spammed by GMs

[Siosilvar]

Burn spell slots seems counter to the concepts of Reserve feats, but I haven't been following this thread TOO closely, so take this with a grain of salt...

That is true, but how else would you represent a sudden burst of power?

[DracoDei]

That is true, but how else would you represent a sudden burst of power?

1/encounter?

[arguskos]

For the record, I'm not changing this to a "burn spell slots" idea, since that defeats the entire point behind reserve feats.

Currently, I'm ready to just throw my hands up in the air and say that I've got no damn idea what to do, since opinion seems to be highly variable, as the whim takes people. :smallsigh:

Personally, I felt it was fine as it was, but then folks disagreed, and in the interest of constructive criticism, I changed it accordingly, and now I personally feel the class is pretty damn bad (ooooh, so, I can get 9th level reserve effects at level 15, ooooh, really amazing :smallannoyed:). The entire point was to have very powerful reserve effects very soon at the cost of casting (which was once 2/5... till I was yelled at a lot for it, and changed it in the name of constructive criticism). Now, it just feels like Casting PrC #354. :smallsigh:

Also, Mulletmanalive, I'll reword the capstone.

[Godskook]

For the record, I'm not changing this to a "burn spell slots" idea, since that defeats the entire point behind reserve feats.

I agree with you here, if that matters.


Currently, I'm ready to just throw my hands up in the air and say that I've got no damn idea what to do, since opinion seems to be highly variable, as the whim takes people. :smallsigh:

I'll admit I came on strong, but the point of critique isn't to force the creator to listen to the critic, but rather to provide outside perspective. In the end, its your work, come pun-pun or truenamer.


Now, it just feels like Casting PrC #354. :smallsigh:

If it helps, as currently written, this is one of the few homebrews I'd want to talk a DM into letting me play. And that's a really short list of 'brew(Krimm's Epic ToB stuff, Fax's Fall Star Discipline, and this, not counting my own stuff, but that's more cause its mine than anything else)

[arguskos]

I agree with you here, if that matters.
Not really, but I'm glad someone agrees. I hate burn slot mechanics ANYWAYS, and this is basically the anti-burn slot PrC. :smallbiggrin:


I'll admit I came on strong, but the point of critique isn't to force the creator to listen to the critic, but rather to provide outside perspective. In the end, its your work, come pun-pun or truenamer.
Little point to me posting it if I don't accept criticisms and change my works. :smallwink:


If it helps, as currently written, this is one of the few homebrews I'd want to talk a DM into letting me play. And that's a really short list of 'brew(Krimm's Epic ToB stuff, Fax's Fall Star Discipline, and this, not counting my own stuff, but that's more cause its mine than anything else)
I'm glad you feel that way. If you do get to use it, do let me know, I'd love to hear your experiences.

[Knaight]

And a sudden idea for the cap stone occurs to me. "A reserve mage is always counted as having an available spell slot equal to the lower of twice the level of reserve mage or half the total caster level."

Given that they lose caster levels, this gives them modified sorcerer progression all the time, or the ever so slightly better modified wizard level progression if they actually keep a spell slot around, and are a wizard. Or even better, if you have it set up to give +1 CL/level.

[Godskook]

I was thinking about it, and considering blasting is among the primary focuses of this class, why not add a class feature that either denies reflex saves by adding ranged touch-attacks or that reduces opponent's effective evasion.

So something like:

Well-Timed: Whenever an opponent makes a reflex save for half damage against one of your reserve feats he is treated as if he didn't have evasion. If the opponent has improved evasion, he is instead treated as only having evasion.

-or-

Leading your shot: Whenever you activate a reserve feat that requires a reflex save, you may designate an opponent within the feat's effect as the primary target. If you succeed on a ranged touch attack against him, he does not get a reflex save against the effect of that feat.

[ryleah]

Isn't this all kind of a moot point? I'm pretty sure you can only take a reserve feat if you're a prepared caster anyways, which means sorcerers need not apply. It is kind of funny that since this PrC makes you lose caster levels your individual reserve abilities are weaker than if you had not taken the reserve feat based PrC.

[Kobold-Bard]

Isn't this all kind of a moot point? I'm pretty sure you can only take a reserve feat if you're a prepared caster anyways, which means sorcorers need not apply.

Incorrect. You just need to be able to cast a spell of the right level and descriptor.

Sorcerers make good Reserve Feat users because as long as the spell is on their Spell Known list and a spell slot of their highest level available they can use the Heighten Spell Feat to make that one spell slot power all of their reserve Feats at full power.

[arguskos]

Isn't this all kind of a moot point? I'm pretty sure you can only take a reserve feat if you're a prepared caster anyways, which means sorcorers need not apply.
That'd be wrong. There is a paragraph about how sorcerers and spon casters interact with reserve feats. :smallwink:

Soo... Godskook, you were afraid of the high damage potential of the class... and now you want to make it better at blasting? I... am getting mixed messages here. :smallconfused:

[Godskook]

Soo... Godskook, you were afraid of the high damage potential of the class... and now you want to make it better at blasting? I... am getting mixed messages here. :smallconfused:

Case 1: 36d6 @ ECL 8, no scaling until epic.

My reaction: Damage is too high for level 8. Make it scale better please!

Case 2: 16d6 @ ECL 8, 2d6 scaling per spell level smoothly with no break points. ECL 20 damage is 40d6, actually higher than Case 1 already.

My last post was made in regards to Case 2, and doesn't improve on max damage at any level(My main concern of case 1). Instead, they improve the class's ability to do average damage, and primarily with the more commonly resisted energy types, since neither acid nor lightning offers a save anyway. Also, note that the difference between case 1 and 2 is almost 20d6 at ECL 8.

[arguskos]

Case 1: 36d6 @ ECL 8, no scaling until epic.

My reaction: Damage is too high for level 8. Make it scale better please!

Case 2: 16d6 @ ECL 8, 2d6 scaling per spell level smoothly with no break points. ECL 20 damage is 40d6, actually higher than Case 1 already.

My last post was made in regards to Case 2, and doesn't improve on max damage at any level(My main concern of case 1). Instead, they improve the class's ability to do average damage, and primarily with the more commonly resisted energy types, since neither acid nor lightning offers a save anyway. Also, note that the difference between case 1 and 2 is almost 20d6 at ECL 8.
I only take umbrage with the 40d6, since this is assuming you have a phantom 10th level slot available, which is not spelled out in your revision, and would logically be assumed to not be the case (seeing as veeeery little pre-epic permits such a thing).

Anyways. Understood. I do not think I will be adding any more class features though, since I don't think they're needed. What IS needed is a clearer consensus on what Reserve Power should be doing. Currently, the original is being derided and your suggestion is unacceptably weak (really, 16d6 in four segments averages to a very sad amount of damage if ANY energy resistance or save applies at all, especially given that said resistances come out 4 times opposed to an orb or fireball's one time). I would prefer to find a middle ground.

[Temotei]

36d6 (http://catlikecoding.com/anydice/?dice=36d6)

16d6 (http://catlikecoding.com/anydice/?dice=16d6)

Finding a middle ground should be easier when you can just reference the averages without thinking. :smallwink:

[arguskos]

36d6 (http://catlikecoding.com/anydice/?dice=36d6)

16d6 (http://catlikecoding.com/anydice/?dice=16d6)

Finding a middle ground should be easier when you can just reference the averages without thinking. :smallwink:
Helpful as that may be, I meant a middle ground dice progression. However, I'm not all that math-savvy, so I can't actually figure it out that well. :smallsigh:

3 seconds. :smalltongue:

[Godskook]

I only take umbrage with the 40d6, since this is assuming you have a phantom 10th level slot available, which is not spelled out in your revision, and would logically be assumed to not be the case (seeing as veeeery little pre-epic permits such a thing).

I admit, it isn't obvious, but it is in there very RAW-ly.


Anyways. Understood. I do not think I will be adding any more class features though, since I don't think they're needed. What IS needed is a clearer consensus on what Reserve Power should be doing. Currently, the original is being derided and your suggestion is unacceptably weak (really, 16d6 in four segments averages to a very sad amount of damage if ANY energy resistance or save applies at all, especially given that said resistances come out 4 times opposed to an orb or fireball's one time). I would prefer to find a middle ground.

Perhaps make the class longer, and add more effective spell levels to the feat-powering along the way? Say +1 effective spell level per 2 class levels(gained on the odd levels)? That'd give 20d6 at 8th, and it'd increment by 4d6 every level till level 13, and hit 56d6 by L20. That'd also give you more room for class features.

Also, what's your idea of respectable damage for a blaster by level? That'd be a useful table to see.

[arguskos]

I admit, it isn't obvious, but it is in there very RAW-ly.
Eh.. considering that 10th level slots only exist in the epic rules, which few folks use, it's worth a visible clarification I think.


Perhaps make the class longer, and add more effective spell levels to the feat-powering along the way? Say +1 effective spell level per 2 class levels(gained on the odd levels)? That'd give 20d6 at 8th, and it'd increment by 4d6 every level till level 13, and hit 56d6 by L20. That'd also give you more room for class features.
I am resistant to extending the class, actually, cause then I'd have to extend the Reservationist appropriately, and I'd really rather not (too much damn effort :smalltongue:). I do like adding those extra boosts to the table though. That would... be almost perfect, actually. It's only a few more dice, but it's relevant in this case.


Also, what's your idea of respectable damage for a blaster by level? That'd be a useful table to see.
Doing 14 average in four pieces is poor by most folks standards. At level 8, melee can hit harder than that with static bonuses on every attack. Honestly, I don't play higher than about level 10 about ever, so, my grasp of higher level play is weaker than it could be (though still solid enough). That's the reason behind this being 5 levels long, enterable at level 4: to finish it out before high levels. If I wanted a PrC that I could take to high levels, I'd pick a more standard one, like Ultimate Magus or Unseen Seer or something.

[Godskook]

Ok, so don't go by actual numbers. Describe the number of rounds a blaster should take to kill CR appropriate monsters. Should a blaster be able to 1-round every enemy he sees? How many rounds of blasting by a reserve mage should it take to kill a generic dragon of equal CR? 1, 2 or 3?

[arguskos]

Ok, so don't go by actual numbers. Describe the number of rounds a blaster should take to kill CR appropriate monsters. Should a blaster be able to 1-round every enemy he sees? How many rounds of blasting by a reserve mage should it take to kill a generic dragon of equal CR? 1, 2 or 3?
Alone? I dunno, a bunch. In a party? Three or four, give or take.

This is all conjecture. I just feel that 14 damage, delivered in 4 parts, is reaaaaally sad. I mean, blasting isn't optimal anyways, why make it so much more blah? Is there an argument that 14 damage in 4 parts is good? Or just that it's reasonable compared to a meleer? ToB classes can pump out more than that every round forever, why can't the Reserve Mage?

[Godskook]

The average 6th level maneuver(ECL 11-12) deals an additional +10d6. With one exception, most 4th level maneuvers deal +4d6(Divine Surge deals +8d6). And in all the cases where bonus damage is added, that's the only attack they'll be making outside AoOs for the round. With optimization, sure, a L8 ToB-er can get higher than 16d6 per round, but it'll take a good 8d6 to 12d6 single attack damage to do it.

Oh, and while its 'forever', its not 'every round', since maneuvers have refresh mechanics, and outside crusader, it'll cost you a round's worth of significant damage to get them back.


Alone? I dunno, a bunch. In a party? Three or four, give or take.

What are you referring to as "3-4"?

[arguskos]

As for ToB, I'm not familiar enough to debate you, but the point is that they can do better than the current Reserve Mage can, since 8d6-10d6 on one action is better than 4d6 four times, IMO.

As for the 3-4 comment, you asked rounds. I gave you a number, in rounds. :smallwink: Sorry I wasn't clearer.

[Godskook]

As for the 3-4 comment, you asked rounds. I gave you a number, in rounds. :smallwink: Sorry I wasn't clearer.

That's what I assumed you meant, but I wanted to make sure.

A CR 8 Blue Dragon has 142 hp. His touch AC and reflex saves are both 9.

Assuming the version I suggest, a Reserve Mage will favor acidic splatter, with an expected +7 on the touch attack. That means he only fails the roll on a fumble. So on average, he'll do full damage with all 4 attacks, and average for that is 56. The dragon won't survive 3 rounds of this, even if a fumble takes away a 4d6 somewhere in there, since assuming the fumble still yields an average 3-round damage of (56x3 = 168 -14, so 154). Now, most likely, the reserve mage can't do that on his own, relying on more advanced tactics to see him through, moving into range, doing 8d6 as a swift, and readying a standard to deal 4d6 + teleport outside the thing's range once it has started using a standard or full-round action. He'll take a few rounds longer, but he'll get the job done safer.

'Course in a party of 4 or 5, he'll be safely tucked behind a fighter type, able to blast with impunity, and a group of 3 reserve mages will down the beast in a single round of attacks.

Admittedly, that's against an opponent without energy resistance, but if that's your primary worry, give them a class feature that penetrates energy resistance. Its balanced by the fact you have to spend 4 attacks to deal that damage in the first place.

Also, while you compare this class to the other reserve feat class you made, this one fares far better, even as I have it. The other one is only capable of dealing 8d6 @ ECL 8, but more on him once we get this class to the 'happy medium' you're looking for.

Also, as far as ToB goes, it'll be easier to discuss the balance of this class if we stick to things at least you're familiar with.

[arguskos]

dragonstuff
That's a great analysis. Thanks for it. Now, the only thing I would like to point out is that the dragon is not just sitting there and taking it. The range on reserve feats is poor (ugh), and the dragon has solutions to being zapped in the face. Since the mage is doing lots of stuff on his actions, he can't actually defend himself with other spells and whatnot.

However, fair enough, the damage is... acceptable, though I still am uneasy. I may include a single "+1 level to reserve feats" in there at level 3 or some such, just cause I look at it and go "eeeeh".


Also, while you compare this class to the other reserve feat class you made, this one fares far better, even as I have it. The other one is only capable of dealing 8d6 @ ECL 8, but more on him once we get this class to the 'happy medium' you're looking for.
We'll get to him later.


Also, as far as ToB goes, it'll be easier to discuss the balance of this class if we stick to things at least you're familiar with.
I'm familiar with it, but not enough to debate maneuver selection with you. I don't talk about stuff I have no right discussing (see how I never post in Incarnum threads? There's a reason :smallwink:).

Anyways, would you be fine with a phantom reserve feat level at level 3? If yes, then let's please move on. :smalltongue:

[Godskook]

You mean to bring it up to +2 effective spell level for the purpose of powering reserve feats?(So, effectively 20d6 per round). That's still reasonable, I should think.

[arguskos]

You mean to bring it up to +2 effective spell level for the purpose of powering reserve feats?(So, effectively 20d6 per round). That's still reasonable, I should think.
At level 3, the Reserve Mage would gain the following ability:


Reserve Booster (Ex): The reserve mage is treated as always having a spell of a level two higher than their normal maximum for purposes of activating reserve feats. This overrides the limit in Reserve Power.

[Forever Curious]

Ooh, also pretty.

It's like "let's turn a wizard into a warlock, but cooler"! Then again, that's probably a bad comparison...regardless, fun class.

[Dagroth]

Before I go into the list of all the Reserve Feats, I have another Class Feature to suggest.


The Save DC for the Reservist's (Reservoir Mage's?) Reserve Feats is +1 for every 3 Reserve Feats they know. So a 13th level Reservist who knows 3 Reserve Feats and can cast 6th level spells has a Save DC for his Reserve Feats of 19+Stat Modifier.

Based one what I'm reading from everyone... the capstone power of this class allows the Reservist (Reservoir Mage?) to use the same Reserve Feat 4 times in the same round? Use Reserve Fuse as a Standard Action to fuse Acid Splatter with Acid Splatter, then use Master of Reservation as a Swift Action to fuse Acid Splatter with Acid Splatter. Have I got that right?

The same caster could use Charnel Miasma to make 4 people within 30' shaken for 1 minute with a Will Save of 14+stat bonus (meh).

Fragile Construct will remove 16 points of hardness for 8 rounds from an object (meh).

Protective Ward would give a +4 Sacred/Profane Bonus to AC to you and 3 others. I couldn't see it stacking, since it is the same feat therefore the same source.

Holy Warrior is an always-on ability... but would you allow it to be fused? If so, that would be +16 damage to every weapon damage roll. Obviously meaningless to a Wizard, but valuable to a Melee Cleric build. Again, it suffers from the "same source" problem with stacking... but it is un-typed, so it should work, unlike Protective Ward.

While Touch of Healing is limited to people below 1/2 hit points, 48 points of healing per touch is nothing to sneeze at. Heck, 24 points of Swift Healing while you're meleeing is nothing to sneeze at.

Umbral Shroud is another one that produces some fun stacking effects. It gives you 10' Darkvision... or +10' Darkvision if you already have it... so would it give +40' Darkvision if you double-fuse it? And would the darkness effect be used on 4 different targets, or 1 target for a total of 80% miss chance?

Aquatic Breath is unaffected... it's always on, like Holy Warrior.

Blade of Force is... lackluster. It only works on one attack and only gives +4 damage. Stacking would give +16, but still not that impressive. The only thing you care about is removing the incorporeal miss chance.

Clap of Thunder is a touch attack, but gives the same damage as Acid Splatter... plus a deafness save. The advantage is that very, very few monsters have Sonic Energy Resistance.

Clutch of Earth is another "meh" power. If it didn't have a Fortitude save, it would be decent. But since it only lasts for 1 round, it's "meh".

Dimensional Jaunt is a Shadow-Pouncer's best friend. Four full attacks per round? Plus a Move Action left over (which you might have a different power use)? Yes please! Even without Shadow Pounce, teleporting 80' per round is pretty good.

Dimensional Reach doesn't seem to interact with the stacking at all.

Drowning Glance... wow. It only works on a target once per day, successful save or not. Still, fatiguing or exhausting 4 targets a round is pretty good. Stops Raging immediately at least.

Face-Changer doesn't seem to interact with the stacking at all.

Firey Burse offers a reflex save, but can get 4 targets if they're bunched up. Same damage as Acid Splatter.

Hurricane Breath... Because of the wording, it just gives you 4 separate bull-rush-like effects. Plus, it never knocks the opponent down! Yuck!

Invisible Needle... d4's of damage and has to hit regular AC, not touch. Very meh. It's not even long range, or an actual "invisible" attack. If it were an actual invisible attack, the opponent should be flat-footed against it at least.

Magic Disruption looks like it could be fun, since it's already an immediate action. 4 Concentration checks, each potentially reducing the DC & CL of the opposing spellcaster's spell by 2? Nasty!

Magic Sensitive. Meh. Doesn't stack, either.

Minor Shapeshift... this is good, considering at 8th level character the effects are going to last 4 rounds. Is Teleport a movement type? I wouldn't allow it, but you could potentially get +5' to each of your teleports for the duration.

Mystic Backlash. Needs a 5th level spell, so you're not getting this with our hypothetical 8th level character. But it needs a touch attack, and the damage isn't that impressive compared to the other reserve feats.

Shadow Veil... Wow, this beats Umbral Shroud because it's a flat 50% miss chance on a failed save.

Sickening Grasp... Doesn't stack, beyond forcing multiple saving throws.

Storm Bolt... As Firey Burst, above. Errata'd to allow a Reflex save. Plus, there's no range (beyond the line itself). The only reason you'd want this is because Electricity Resistance is not as common as Fire Resistance.

Summon Elemental... Well, they'd instantly give each other flanking the moment they're summoned! :smallbiggrin:

Sunlight Eyes. Only better than Umbral Shroud because it pierces magical darkness.

Touch of Distraction... specifically says multiple uses don't stack. :smallyuk: Plus, it's only their next save... not every save in the round or something like that.

Wind Guided Arrows... It's an un-typed bonus or penalty, so could conceivably give +8 or -8 to hit on a single attack.

Winter's Blast... d4s again. No Range Cold damage. Reflex save as well. See Storm Bolt, only not as good since it's lower damage.