Vampires, Sunlight, and Darkness [3.5]

[Optimystik]

Here's a quick question, Playground - can a Darkness spell (cast on a portable object) be used to protect a Vampire from sunlight? Or will the sunlight count as a "greater light effect" and cancel it out? How about Deeper Darkness? Are there even stronger [Darkness] effects?

I think that the sun would win (epic light effect?) but I'd like a citation or support if possible. I've been scanning LM but I can't find anything definitive one way or the other.

[Yuki Akuma]

Sunlight isn't magical. It has no effect on [Darkness] spells.

[Optimystik]

Sunlight isn't magical. It has no effect on [Darkness] spells.

So to clarify, a Vampire can cast Darkness on a ring or a brooch or something, and walk around in broad daylight with impunity?

[marjan]

So to clarify, a Vampire can cast Darkness on a ring or a brooch or something, and walk around in broad daylight with impunity?

IIRC he still won't be able to see anything, since Darkvision doesn't work in magical darkness.

[Starbuck_II]

IIRC he still won't be able to see anything, since Darkvision doesn't work in magical darkness.

Darkness doesn't blind. You are thinking of Black Light. Darkness causes Candle light (no higher or lower).

So yes, this works but the Vamp would have 20% miss chance.

[Lysander]

Darkness only provides partial concealment, which means its harder but not impossible to see your target. That means that some light can get through. Even though it's less sunlight it's still "direct sunlight" which by RAW would kill them. The same thing would happen if the vampire covered themselves with a mesh fabric.

Technically RAW doesn't specify the amount of direct sunlight needing. What if there's a tiny hole in the ceiling and a small dot of light hits the vampire? By RAW that would also kill them.

A reasonable houserule would be that it requires full or close to full exposure to sunlight to be killed outright and that minor or reduced exposure just deals an amount of damage each round.

[Optimystik]

Darkness only provides partial concealment, which means its harder but not impossible to see your target. That means that some light can get through. Even though it's less sunlight it's still "direct sunlight" which by RAW would kill them. The same thing would happen if the vampire covered themselves with a mesh fabric.

Technically RAW doesn't specify the amount of direct sunlight needing. What if there's a tiny hole in the ceiling and a small dot of light hits the vampire? By RAW that would also kill them.


Interesting... and since Deeper Darkness offers the same amount of concealment, they would die under it, as well.

What about Blacklight? Is that partial concealment, or total? Would that work?

[Dresil]

Have him carry a hello kitty umbrella

[Deth Muncher]

Have him carry a hello kitty umbrella

:mitd: I see what you did there, but not the Gate everyone keeps talking about.

[Starbuck_II]

Interesting... and since Deeper Darkness offers the same amount of concealment, they would die under it, as well.

What about Blacklight? Is that partial concealment, or total? Would that work?

Black Light is total darkness. Unless he has that Warlock ability to see through magic darkness he would be blind as well.

[Lysander]

Black Light is total darkness. Unless he has that Warlock ability to see through magic darkness he would be blind as well.

It would still be useful as protection when quickly running through sunlit areas. But the vampire better be damn sure to scout out where there's darkness, because it would suck to dismiss the black light when still exposed and there's no way to check. Maybe the sunlight's heat would still go through, I don't know.

[Optimystik]

Black Light is total darkness. Unless he has that Warlock ability to see through magic darkness he would be blind as well.

I'm not worried about him being able to see (maybe get a seeing-eye bat, or Mindsight/Lifesense or something), I'm worried whether magical darkness can block sunlight.

The consensus thus far seems to be "Darkness/Deeper Darkness no, Blacklight yes." So far I'm inclined to agree, but a ruling would still be great.

[Greenish]

I'm not worried about him being able to see (maybe get a seeing-eye bat, or Mindsight/Lifesense or something), I'm worried whether magical darkness can block sunlight.

The consensus thus far seems to be "Darkness/Deeper Darkness no, Blacklight yes." So far I'm inclined to agree, but a ruling would still be great.The spell description says that it "creates an area of total darkness", so one should think that there is no light within.

Other than that, it also says that "the effect is stationary when cast on a mobile object", so casting it on a ring or a brooch wouldn't allow you to run around in it as I read it (casting it to yourself directly would, though). And finally, the caster can see normally within the darkness (but not out of it, it seems), though he/she can't see into the darkness from outside.

[Optimystik]

The spell description says that it "creates an area of total darkness", so one should think that there is no light within.

Other than that, it also says that "the effect is stationary when cast on a mobile object", so casting it on a ring or a brooch wouldn't allow you to run around in it as I read it (casting it to yourself directly would, though). And finally, the caster can see normally within the darkness (but not out of it, it seems), though he/she can't see into the darkness from outside.

Perfect. I hadn't even noticed the "stationary" clause. This is exactly the help I wanted :smallsmile:


Have him carry a hello kitty umbrella

You raise an interesting point - I wonder how this would apply to the MitD? If he stood out in the open without his umbrella, would the sun have any effect on his visibility?

[Lord Vukodlak]

Darkness only provides partial concealment, which means its harder but not impossible to see your target. That means that some light can get through. Even though it's less sunlight it's still "direct sunlight" which by RAW would kill them. The same thing would happen if the vampire covered themselves with a mesh fabric.

Technically RAW doesn't specify the amount of direct sunlight needing. What if there's a tiny hole in the ceiling and a small dot of light hits the vampire? By RAW that would also kill them.

A reasonable houserule would be that it requires full or close to full exposure to sunlight to be killed outright and that minor or reduced exposure just deals an amount of damage each round.

Not only reasonable but probably intended, most stories with vampires have something about the vampire standing in the shade, or just inside the shadows to avoid a ray of sunlight. I'd personally say that radiating darkness from the object negates direct sunlight making the lighting simply indirect. Like standing next to an open window.

[Lysander]

Not only reasonable but probably intended, most stories with vampires have something about the vampire standing in the shade, or just inside the shadows to avoid a ray of sunlight. I'd personally say that radiating darkness from the object negates direct sunlight making the lighting simply indirect. Like standing next to an open window.

Sunlight through a window is still direct. Direct basically means the sunlight didn't reflect off of anything since it left the sun.

That's why vampires can stand in the shadows and look at things illuminated by daylight, because that light they're seeing is no longer direct.

[Asheram]

I'd say that the easiest way is to boot the regular vampires and bring in the "Nosferatu" from Ravenloft... though... any potential vampire hunter will be scared ****-less.

[Greenish]

Sunlight through a window is still direct.I think he meant "next to the window" as opposed to "in front of the window". You know, hugging the wall on the side of the window to avoid the light pouring in from it.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I think he meant "next to the window" as opposed to "in front of the window". You know, hugging the wall on the side of the window to avoid the light pouring in from it.

You've got it

[chiasaur11]

I'd say that the easiest way is to boot the regular vampires and bring in the "Nosferatu" from Ravenloft... though... any potential vampire hunter will be scared ****-less.

Except the paladins.

Class ability and suchlike.

[taltamir]

i am pretty sure there is magic a ring that simply makes a vampire immune to light.

but yes, a vampire could use the spell darkness in a pinch... as the sun is non magical the darkness spell always wins.

[AbyssKnight]

There is a Forgotten Realms spell, Cloak of Dark Power I think, that protects from sunlight.

[Optimystik]

i am pretty sure there is magic a ring that simply makes a vampire immune to light.

but yes, a vampire could use the spell darkness in a pinch... as the sun is non magical the darkness spell always wins.

But this tactic runs into Lysander's point - as the darkness only grants partial concealment, is it fully protective?

[Greenish]

But this tactic runs into Lysander's point - as the darkness only grants partial concealment, is it fully protective?Hmm, by RAW, Darkness creates shadowy illumination. "Normal lights are incapable of brightening the area" would indicate that the illumination is not caused by any ambient light. That's a somewhat questionable reading though.

[Lamech]

But this tactic runs into Lysander's point - as the darkness only grants partial concealment, is it fully protective? I would say so. Normal light can't brighten the area.


Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) are incapable of brightening the areaIf the sun doesn't brighten the area it shouldn't affect the vampire.


Sunlight through a window is still direct. Direct basically means the sunlight didn't reflect off of anything since it left the sun.I'm pretty sure glass isn't clear if one gets up into some of the U.V. spectrum, so its questionable as to if its still sunlight. Also its going to change paths as it goes through the glass some, so we need to ask how direct is direct.

[Lysander]

Hmm, by RAW, Darkness creates shadowy illumination. "Normal lights are incapable of brightening the area" would indicate that the illumination is not caused by any ambient light. That's a somewhat questionable reading though.

It matters less whether light can get out of the darkness than whether light can get in. Unless the spell prevents you from seeing things outside that means light can get in, including sunlight. Any spell that blocks sufficient sunlight would have to blind the vampire as well.



I'm pretty sure glass isn't clear if one gets up into some of the U.V. spectrum, so its questionable as to if its still sunlight. Also its going to change paths as it goes through the glass some, so we need to ask how direct is direct.

It depends whether you have science vampires who are hurt by UV light, or magical vampires who are cursed by god to avoid sunlight. In DnD I'd say it doesn't matter whether the light is tinted or not, it's still from the sun.

And the atmosphere itself refracts sunlight, so I don't think a thick pane of rippled glass should protect you.

[hamishspence]

A vampire in a box can see outside without the sunlight hitting them (unless it shines directly through any holes in the side of the box)

Maybe Darkness works a similar way? Creating, effectively, a zone of dim light through which direct sunlight cannot pass- only reflected sunlight.

Reflected sunlight (from the walls of a room) is from the sun- but it's not direct sunlight.

[taltamir]

Sunlight through a window is still direct. Direct basically means the sunlight didn't reflect off of anything since it left the sun.
what about the atmosphere, it is a "thing", and it reflects and refracts light.
passing through a window or bouncing off a wall has the same effect

[Greenish]

It matters less whether light can get out of the darkness than whether light can get in. Unless the spell prevents you from seeing things outside that means light can get in, including sunlight. Any spell that blocks sufficient sunlight would have to blind the vampire as well.The light obviously turns magical at the border of the Darkness spell! :smalltongue:

And well, direct sunlight won't blind vampires.

[Lamech]

there is a thing called atmosphere, it is a "thing", and it reflects and refracts light.
passing through a window or bouncing off a wall has the same effect
Clearly vampires are only vunerable to sunlight if their in space.

[taltamir]

btw, darkness basically EMITS "anti-light" as if it is a "light" made out of shadows.

[Lysander]

A vampire in a box can see outside without the sunlight hitting them (unless it shines directly through any holes in the side of the box)

Maybe Darkness works a similar way? Creating, effectively, a zone of dim light through which direct sunlight cannot pass- only reflected sunlight.

Reflected sunlight (from the walls of a room) is from the sun- but it's not direct sunlight.

It would make sense for darkness to react to all outside light in the same way. So if it makes sunlight indirect it should make all light indirect. It'd be a continuous blur or displacement effect for everything you see around you.

[hamishspence]

Hmm- the old days, when Darkness created a sphere of utter blackness, were a bit simpler.

[Greenish]

Hmm- the old days, when Darkness created a sphere of utter blackness, were a bit simpler.Yeah, the 3.5 "Darkness" is rather counterintuitive. Thank deities (and demigods) for Blacklight. :smallcool:

[Lysander]

Yeah, the 3.5 "Darkness" is rather counterintuitive. Thank deities (and demigods) for Blacklight. :smallcool:

Clearly the god of dormroom posters and raves developed that spell.

[Optimystik]

Hmm, by RAW, Darkness creates shadowy illumination. "Normal lights are incapable of brightening the area" would indicate that the illumination is not caused by any ambient light. That's a somewhat questionable reading though.

Yes, that reading runs into the wonderful RAW trick of brightening a room by casting Darkness. :smallyuk:

Brushing that bit of silliness aside though, your view is definitely plausible - that the Darkness spell suppresses natural illumination, while simultaneously creating its own, thus resulting in hte not-quite-concealment we observe in the game.

[ericgrau]

RAW is that darkness does indeed work in full sunlight. RAMS (rules as makes sense) is that darkness does protect a vampire from the sun.

[Bibliomancer]

RAW is that darkness does indeed work in full sunlight. RAMS (rules as makes sense) is that darkness does protect a vampire from the sun.

Since some of the sunlight is being blocked, darkness should logically prevent the vampire from being hurt, although the definition of 'direct' is still a bit ambiguous here.

Blacklight would certainly work.

[Zaq]

If you can find a minion willing to concentrate for you, Control Light (1st level Psi/Wld power) can get you down to 0% illumination, which is better than a vanilla Darkness spell. Unfortunately, as I already hinted at, it requires concentration, but if you can't have a few low-level thralls around just begging to be allowed to use and maintain a power for you, why are you even bothering to be a vampire? (Alternatively, psicrystals can be used for this, with varying levels of shenanigans.)

[BIRDMANﺕ]

Here's a quick question, Playground - can a Darkness spell (cast on a portable object) be used to protect a Vampire from sunlight? Or will the sunlight count as a "greater light effect" and cancel it out? How about Deeper Darkness? Are there even stronger [Darkness] effects?

I think that the sun would win (epic light effect?) but I'd like a citation or support if possible. I've been scanning LM but I can't find anything definitive one way or the other.

Hahahahaha...

roughly 6 years ago I used to debate with people on this all the time. I am not sure on that Darkness... of course im pretty sure people in town would be like "Woah... whats that big black cloud of darkness walkin around for?"

Protecting a vampire in sunlight is actually a lot easier than it sounds. It would suprise you how simple it is.

Answer to that is.... *drum roll*

Heavy Clothing.

Yep. All you need is pretty thick clothing recommended would be hood robes and gloves as well as some shoes. See the whole trick is just making sure sunlight doesn't touch you.

I can also site my source (sorta. I know what book it states this in if it works) Libris mortis. It's somewhere in the back end of the book.

I believe the answer to your darkness question can be found in there too. I do wan't to be careful though with this... people tend to get, very flustered on this topic. (well just with my experince. did this with some guy who thought humans could become constructs for frankly no reason and then become an undead construct. this creature was called the "Mechalich" of course that is a story for another time... hehehehe still very funny joke)

Here is what I recommend though...

Check out the libris mortis. Should answer your question. I don't really like the libris though mostly cause I find it hard to find things... like I went through the dang thing 4 times looking for 2 templates. Could not find.

so... I just personally find it hard to look for things in that book. I'm sure after poking around you should find it. Infact ill help ya... going to read it real quick if I find what your looking for I'll let ya know and ill site my source.

[BIRDMANﺕ]

Looked it up!

Page 140 of the Libris Mortis

It says things like cloud cover and similar spells do not protect an undead from sunlight

UNLESS

It is thick enough to provide a concealment bonus so lets take a look at darkness from the SRD here.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkness.htm

"This spell causes an object to radiate shadowy illumination out to a 20-foot radius. All creatures in the area gain concealment (20% miss chance)."

Absolutely! darkness works!

and as stated before heavy clothing works as long as it covers the entire body. of course that wont work for incorporeal.

so just clarifying one more time this is on page 140 of the libris mortis at the bottom titled "Sunlight Vulnerability". Hope that helps

It is also interesting to know that reflected sunlight does not harm the undead! (so if you took a mirror shined light at a vampire. it don't work)

[Optimystik]

Check out the libris mortis. Should answer your question. I don't really like the libris though mostly cause I find it hard to find things... like I went through the dang thing 4 times looking for 2 templates. Could not find.

I followed your advice and checked the back of the book. Lo and behold, you're right :smallsmile:


Regardless of the effect, the cause remains the same: direct exposure to the light of the sun. Reflected sunlight, whether via a mirror or the moon itself, has no effect on an undead creature vulnerable to sunlight. Cloud cover or similar interference does not protect the undead creature unless it is thick enough to provide concealment to the creature. For example, a vampire within a Fog Gloud spell would not adversely be affected by sunlight.

So as long as the spell grants concealment, it works... I guess that means Darkness is fine. Good to know!

And ninja'ed too. Joke's on me :smallwink:

[BIRDMANﺕ]

I followed your advice and checked the back of the book. Lo and behold, you're right :smallsmile:



So as long as the spell grants concealment, it works... I guess that means Darkness is fine. Good to know!

Yep yep :)

speaking of finding things in the blasted book, would you happen to know where I could find the bone creature template and the corpse creature template?

Been looking in the libris for a week and I cannot find it (one of our players for a campaign im in wanted to play an undead but the DM doesent allow high level adjustment ones. and the coprse and bone ones were only la +1 if I remember clearly)

I wish they put an index in some of these dang books I can't find anything... I even searched the pdf version the actual thing, could I be thinking of the wrong book?


Erm... nevermind scratch that. I found them... and I feel silly now. They were never in the libris to begin with. they were in the book of vile darkness. :smallannoyed:

Oh well glad I could help ya tho! :smallbiggrin: