PDA

View Full Version : [D&D 3.5] Building a Better Breachgnome



Cieyrin
2010-03-30, 03:12 PM
I remember ye olde Breachgnome kit from 2E and would like to recreate on for a game I play in. Having a look at the 3rd Ed version that appears in Races of Faerun, I find myself fairly disappointed in it, though not as disappointed as I am in Battlerager, as at least they tried to make class features, not just give you bonus feats. So, this brings me to you, the Playground, for help in determining a good mix of classes, feats and options to recreate a Gnomish meleer that I could be proud to showcase.

Before I cut you guys loose, I'm restricted from Psionics and oriental flavored material, so no OA. I may be able to get some ToB, though that'd require some persuading, so don't bank on having it available. Otherwise, cut loose!

Stats are 4d6 and organized as a I will, 2 free bonus feats (so flaws would probably be frowned on for more free feats) and will probably start at around 3rd-4th level, as this'll be a backup character, should my current pass on. I have access to most 3.5 books, though Dragon material would probably be frowned on as well.

Thanks in advance for your insights and suggestions! :smallbiggrin:

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-30, 03:16 PM
I remember ye olde Breachgnome kit from 2E and would like to recreate on for a game I play in. Having a look at the 3rd Ed version that appears in Races of Faerun, I find myself fairly disappointed in it, though not as disappointed as I am in Battlerager, as at least they tried to make class features, not just give you bonus feats. So, this brings me to you, the Playground, for help in determining a good mix of classes, feats and options to recreate a Gnomish meleer that I could be proud to showcase.

Before I cut you guys loose, I'm restricted from Psionics and oriental flavored material, so no OA. I may be able to get some ToB, though that'd require some persuading, so don't bank on having it available. Otherwise, cut loose!

Stats are 4d6 and organized as a I will, 2 free bonus feats (so flaws would probably be frowned on for more free feats) and will probably start at around 3rd-4th level, as this'll be a backup character, should my current pass on. I have access to most 3.5 books, though Dragon material would probably be frowned on as well.

Thanks in advance for your insights and suggestions! :smallbiggrin:

Have you thought about mixing in some blade bravado from races of stone...

there are actualy some good stuff in races of stone for gnomes.

being a gnome lover my self.

arguskos
2010-03-30, 03:22 PM
Have you thought about killing all gnomes everywhere? That way, you won't have to think about how awful they are as a race. :smalltongue:

Note: This post brought to you by "RPG Gamers Against Gnomes", a non-profit organization.





Ok, ok, now, a serious response. I actually like Breachgnome in Races of Faerun, just as a nice 5-level thing. You might want to look into Knight (PHB2) as well, for Knight's Challenge. Lots of folks hate it, but I always liked it.

Another idea is you could just build your typically chain tripper and go to town. Even as a Gnome, you'll probably be a pretty good one.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-03-30, 03:32 PM
Have you thought about killing all gnomes everywhere? That way, you won't have to think about how awful they are as a race. :smalltongue:

Note: This post brought to you by "RPG Gamers Against Gnomes", a non-profit organization.
What the hell is wrong with gnomes. I don't understand every ones utter hate for them?


Ok, ok, now, a serious response. I actually like Breachgnome in Races of Faerun, just as a nice 5-level thing. You might want to look into Knight (PHB2) as well, for Knight's Challenge. Lots of folks hate it, but I always liked it.

Another idea is you could just build your typically chain tripper and go to town. Even as a Gnome, you'll probably be a pretty good one.



I agree knight is a good lead in.

ghashxx
2010-03-30, 03:45 PM
Hmmmm, where'd that stat up for the infinite damage gnome go? Something about using ToB's crusader with a luck feat and doing unarmed damage of a measly 1d2. But with this combination of things, every damage roll of a 1 is counted as a 2, and every time you roll max damage you roll again and add.

So you roll a 1, it counts as a 2 which is max damage, roll again. You rolled a 2, which is max damage, roll again. Pretty much ridiculous.

Cieyrin
2010-03-30, 03:54 PM
Have you thought about killing all gnomes everywhere? That way, you won't have to think about how awful they are as a race. :smalltongue:

Note: This post brought to you by "RPG Gamers Against Gnomes", a non-profit organization.

Would it make you feel better if this was most likely going to be a Whisper Gnome, as opposed to the PHB standard Rock Gnome? I know it makes me feel well.


Ok, ok, now, a serious response. I actually like Breachgnome in Races of Faerun, just as a nice 5-level thing. You might want to look into Knight (PHB2) as well, for Knight's Challenge. Lots of folks hate it, but I always liked it.

IDK, it just feels like a lot of prereqs for not much, though dipping a level for the 1st Seal the Breach might be nice, especially when combined with Stoneback (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Stoneback) from RoS. I'll have to carefully consider it, as Uncanny Dodge may not be that bad, though Stoneback covers Improved.

As for Knight, that was what I was thinking does much of what Breachgnome does without silly requirements, between Bulwark of Defense and Vigilant Defender alone. The d12 HD combined with Gnomish Constitution isn't bad, either. Whisper Gnome's Charisma penalty might hurt a little but it fits most of what I'm looking for.


Another idea is you could just build your typically chain tripper and go to town. Even as a Gnome, you'll probably be a pretty good one.

Bleh, spiked chain. No thanks, I prefer a more sensible weapon. Plus, I'm not necessarily going for the hilarity of being a Small tripper, as I've done that previously to mixed results.

Blade Bravo and abusing other Small type feats for ultra defense (Confounding the Bigfolk, I'm looking at you) is highly tempting, though somewhat at odds with Knight. I'll have to see how they mesh together before I can be more definitive about it.

As for the d2 Crusader...yeah, I wanna actually play this, not get books thrown at me. Thanks but no thanks.:smallyuk:

arguskos
2010-03-30, 05:02 PM
On Gnomes: No, I hate the damn things. I've yet to see a race of gnomes I liked from a fluff perspective. Statistically, Whisper makes me happy though.

Build: Well, I personally dislike Blade Bravo for a breachgnome. Consider that Blade Bravo is about MOVEMENT, and a breachgnome is about holding a tunnel... in which you cannot move much... just saying.

Have you considered Swarmfighting? It would work well if you have another few breachgnomes to fight with. Also, Confound the Big Folk might be a good feat as well, just to really drive home the "I'm going to hold this damn ground against ANYTHING" feel.

Cieyrin
2010-03-30, 05:37 PM
Build: Well, I personally dislike Blade Bravo for a breachgnome. Consider that Blade Bravo is about MOVEMENT, and a breachgnome is about holding a tunnel... in which you cannot move much... just saying.

The only bit of Blade Bravo that specifically requires movement is Mobile Fighting and that's only 5', so I don't see much support for needing to move. The bigger faux pas of Blade Bravo is that it's so keyed into light armor, which doesn't play well with Knight and the image of a Breachgnome. That's the thing I see most needing to be overcome here than anything.


Have you considered Swarmfighting? It would work well if you have another few breachgnomes to fight with. Also, Confound the Big Folk might be a good feat as well, just to really drive home the "I'm going to hold this damn ground against ANYTHING" feel.

The issue with Swarmfighting is you need other creatures with Swarmfighting to make it work, considering none of my fellow PCs are Small meleers, currently. This thus screams Leadership, which is a sticky situation, no matter who you talk to.

Cieyrin
2010-04-05, 03:32 PM
UPDATE: Having been futzing with this quite a bit since last posted (as well as a recommendation from a good friend), a dual progression of Knight and Warblade (focused on White Raven) has come forward. Exact details I'll have to look into but it looks pretty good at first glance. Additional input on a Whisper Gnome Knight/Warblade 'Breachgnome' would be appreciated, as would further argument for whether to actually pursue the Breachgnome PRC.

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-05, 05:15 PM
I see no direct conflict between confound the big folk and knight. You can defend a space even better if you can get underfoot. Look at Giant Killing Style tactical feat, too.

Cieyrin
2010-04-06, 02:46 PM
I see no direct conflict between confound the big folk and knight. You can defend a space even better if you can get underfoot. Look at Giant Killing Style tactical feat, too.

Giant Killing Style the Setting Sun stance or Giantbane the tactical feat, as they both seem applicable in this instance?

arguskos
2010-04-06, 03:13 PM
Giant Killing Style the Setting Sun stance or Giantbane the tactical feat, as they both seem applicable in this instance?
Yes! :smallbiggrin:

Starbuck_II
2010-04-06, 03:13 PM
What the hell is wrong with gnomes. I don't understand every ones utter hate for them?


It is a Twilight thing.
You are either team Edward (Gnomes) or team Jacob (Kobolds).

Cieyrin
2010-04-06, 03:36 PM
It is a Twilight thing.
You are either team Edward (Gnomes) or team Jacob (Kobolds).

Oh gods, never again! Why would you defile my thread like that?!? :smalleek: [/hilariousoverreaction]

strider24seven
2010-04-06, 04:31 PM
Moving away from that nonsense,

If you want a gnome capable of holding a tunnel... you have to be a dwarf.

Take 3 levels in Stonblessed (Dwarf) from Races of Stone to qualify as a dwarf. Then take exactly 2 levels in Deepwarden (RoS), and as many levels as you wish in Dwarven Defender. Then take 2 levels of Crusader for Thicket of Blades and all the Stone Dragon goodness. Add levels of Knight to taste. Viola, you can now hold a tunnel.

I loved the breachgnomes of 2nd Ed, and was sad to see them go in 3rd Ed.
Breachgnomes forever!

Cieyrin
2010-04-07, 01:51 PM
Moving away from that nonsense,

If you want a gnome capable of holding a tunnel... you have to be a dwarf.

Take 3 levels in Stonblessed (Dwarf) from Races of Stone to qualify as a dwarf. Then take exactly 2 levels in Deepwarden (RoS), and as many levels as you wish in Dwarven Defender. Then take 2 levels of Crusader for Thicket of Blades and all the Stone Dragon goodness. Add levels of Knight to taste. Viola, you can now hold a tunnel.

I loved the breachgnomes of 2nd Ed, and was sad to see them go in 3rd Ed.
Breachgnomes forever!

Now, exactly why should I go Stoneblessed into Dwarven Defender? Breachgnomes are meant to guard tunnels, not necessarily just by standing in them and having everybody then decide to plink me from range, where my Defensive Stance is basically made useless.

Deepwarden is a nice idea but, as a Whisper Gnome, I most likely will have plenty of Dex to actually utilize, so I don't need Stone Warden and thus dealing with those silly skill requirements.

Crusader gives me pause, though I think I'd rather just go Warblade, keep my d12 HD and possibly pick up Thicket of Blades through the Martial Stance feat. I'm not overly sure how useful Thicket is in this instance, considering if I'm high enough as a Knight, the terrain around me is Difficult Terrain, so they can't 5' out of my threatened area, anyways, so they'll provoke regardless of how they move. Crusaders rub me the wrong way, anyways.

Thanks for the thoughts, though.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-04-07, 02:00 PM
and now for MY two cents:

Race: Tinker Gnome (Dragonlance) Dragonborn of Bahamut (Heart)
Class: Warblade 4/Swashbuckler 3/Blade Bravo 3/Bloodstorm Blade 10

Cieyrin
2010-04-07, 05:21 PM
and now for MY two cents:

Race: Tinker Gnome (Dragonlance) Dragonborn of Bahamut (Heart)
Class: Warblade 4/Swashbuckler 3/Blade Bravo 3/Bloodstorm Blade 10

Hmm, and what does this accomplish? Swash 3 for Insightful Strike I understand but why Blade Bravo 3? That bonus feat isn't that great, really. I'd think a better stopping place at 5th for Size Advantage would be better.

Also, Bloodstorm Blade? I'm not sure where in the flavor of Breachgnome we have mastery of throwing things, so I'm not sure where you're going with this...

strider24seven
2010-04-07, 09:40 PM
Now, exactly why should I go Stoneblessed into Dwarven Defender? Breachgnomes are meant to guard tunnels, not necessarily just by standing in them and having everybody then decide to plink me from range, where my Defensive Stance is basically made useless.

Deepwarden is a nice idea but, as a Whisper Gnome, I most likely will have plenty of Dex to actually utilize, so I don't need Stone Warden and thus dealing with those silly skill requirements.

Crusader gives me pause, though I think I'd rather just go Warblade, keep my d12 HD and possibly pick up Thicket of Blades through the Martial Stance feat. I'm not overly sure how useful Thicket is in this instance, considering if I'm high enough as a Knight, the terrain around me is Difficult Terrain, so they can't 5' out of my threatened area, anyways, so they'll provoke regardless of how they move. Crusaders rub me the wrong way, anyways.

Thanks for the thoughts, though.

Okay, DD generally sucks, but you CAN take a 5' step during Defensive stance, so you're not completely immobile. And you can just set up a Tower Shield to give yourself total cover.

It really bugs me when people recommend the Knight over Thicket of Blades. I love Knights, but their abilities are really sub-par. So, without further ado, my Thicket of Blades vs. Bulwark of Defense argument:

Thicket of Blades beats out the Knight's Bulwark of Defense because it lets you swat people for moving, which is generally better then them not moving at all. Examples where Thicket of Blades trumps Bulwark of Defense:
1)Elocaters- They get to ignore difficult terrain, but not ToB
2)Anything with Fly- ToB can possibly let you smack these guys.
3)Anything else that ignores difficult terrain, i.e. Scout. ToB lets you swat these buggers, which should let you one-shot them.
Examples where Bulwark beats Thicket:
1)Chargers- But with Thicket, you usually have Hold the Line, Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, and a reach weapon. So you get to smack them 3-6 times. As opposed to them just charging the party wizard instead.
2)Opponets with cover- although, arguably, you can't create difficult terrain where you can't see.

If you really want Thicket of Blades, you really ought to tough it out and take 2 levels of Crusader. Its recovery mechanic is usually better for a Warblade, and definately beats Martial Study, for any combat that lasts longer than one round (most of them). And you can get great tanking and self-healing abilities.

But, you did ask for a breachGNOME, and I handed you a breachdwarf-gnome.

herrhauptmann
2010-04-08, 12:57 AM
Interlocking plate makes that 5ft step much nicer.
So long as you move no more than 5 feet, your AC goes up by 2. It's almost like defensive stance, but you can break it when you need it.

Used it for a DD a year back, most of hte party thought I was able to multiple stances in a day, a fight even. When I brought out the stance finally, they got very confused, wondering how I was able to do 2 stances at a time. :smallbiggrin:

Stoneblessed, into dwarven paragon. 3 levels gets you another +2 con (+1 AC), and stoneblessed also gives a con boost I think.
I know you said you'll have the dex to not need deepwarden, but I wanted to say all that anyway.
Carry a tower shield, set it for cover. Much better than getting sniped at from ranger. Make it dancing, now you've got a two handed weapon, or can dual wield, AND keep your 6+ AC boost (5 shield, 1 magic).

If your armor is super important (some characters it's a generic +2, other's it has a dozen effects), I suggest putting blueshine on it. Bonus to hide, whoop-de-do. Immune to rust/acid damage? Heck yah. Laugh at rust monsters and oozes with impunity.
Also, everbright weapons.
Soulfire armor enchantment is costly, but worth being immune to level drain.

Optimystik
2010-04-08, 05:56 AM
What the hell is wrong with gnomes. I don't understand every ones utter hate for them?

Nothing. They're a lot more fun to punt than halflings, for instance. :smalltongue:

They're good with Incarnum, which means they get a pass in my book.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-08, 07:15 AM
It is a Twilight thing.
You are either team Edward (Gnomes) or team Jacob (Kobolds).
**** No...

GNomes don't always glitter in the sun. Nor are gnomes all emo.

Kosjsjach
2010-04-08, 07:50 AM
...I love both gnomes and kobolds, though gnomes could use some re-flavoring so they're not stepping on anyone's toes (halflings already occupy the "small and mischievous" niche while dwarves preform admirably as the subterranean crafters). Pathfinder's take on them being extraplanar refugees from the fey realm who only die of boredom is fun.

Plus, y'know, kobolds. What's not to like? :smallbiggrin:

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-08, 07:51 AM
...I love both gnomes and kobolds, though gnomes could use some re-flavoring so they're not stepping on anyone's toes (halflings already occupy the "small and mischievous" niche while dwarves preform admirably as the subterranean crafters). Pathfinder's take on them being extraplanar refugees from the fey realm who only die of boredom is fun.

Plus, y'know, kobolds. What's not to like? :smallbiggrin:

Gnomes seem more mischievous then halflings maybe its cuz i still see halflings as hobbits :(

Halflings seem more rural, like country folk.
I meen look at there god selection.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-08, 08:06 AM
**** No...

GNomes don't always glitter in the sun. Nor are gnomes all emo.

Yeah, they do:
http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?listing_id=37073914

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-08, 08:21 AM
Yeah, they do:
http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?listing_id=37073914

ya that gnome is but the hundreds of other gnomes arn't ... psshh...

Look at david the gnome he didn't sparkle.

herrhauptmann
2010-04-08, 09:12 AM
I thought the gnome hate all came from the Living Greyhawk mods in 3.5. For a year or more, every mod was gnome-centric in some way.

At least the first gnome haters I met, started hating because of that.

Cieyrin
2010-04-08, 02:37 PM
I thought the gnome hate all came from the Living Greyhawk mods in 3.5. For a year or more, every mod was gnome-centric in some way.

At least the first gnome haters I met, started hating because of that.

They were hated because the authors who wrote those modules were sick bastards, as they involved things like slavery and the raping of children. ...Yeah, I'm kinda glad my LG career started after that mess ended...
Also why the Australian Triads were only allowed to write one module per year after that point...


If your armor is super important (some characters it's a generic +2, other's it has a dozen effects), I suggest putting blueshine on it. Bonus to hide, whoop-de-do. Immune to rust/acid damage? Heck yah. Laugh at rust monsters and oozes with impunity.
Also, everbright weapons.

Durable from Dungeonscape is cheaper than Blueshine is. >_>;;

herrhauptmann
2010-04-08, 05:50 PM
They were hated because the authors who wrote those modules were sick bastards, as they involved things like slavery and the raping of children. ...Yeah, I'm kinda glad my LG career started after that mess ended...

What? It went that far? Jeeze, here I thought it was just people being tired of gnome modules. Like the hate for Drizzt clones surging after the release of a book (usually)



Durable from Dungeonscape is cheaper than Blueshine is. >_>;;
Really? Can it be put on shields too?

Kallisti
2010-04-08, 05:57 PM
It is a Twilight thing.
You are either team Edward (Gnomes) or team Jacob (Kobolds).

Can I be on team Feel the Might of Pelor, the Burning Hate! SEARING LIGHT:furious:!!!!

Please? Pretty please with a Turn Undead on top?

Cieyrin
2010-04-09, 01:45 PM
Really? Can it be put on shields too?

Think so but I'm AFB. All I recall is that it's extremely handy for the bargain price of 500 gp. Restful, which lets you sleep in your armor without resorting to silly augment crystals, is also 500 gp and damn useful as well.

herrhauptmann
2010-04-09, 02:34 PM
Think so but I'm AFB. All I recall is that it's extremely handy for the bargain price of 500 gp. Restful, which lets you sleep in your armor without resorting to silly augment crystals, is also 500 gp and damn useful as well.

That it is, I think the restful crystal costs more anyway.

Cieyrin
2010-04-13, 05:29 PM
Finally getting some work done and I'm surprisingly finding that some of the Stone Dragon stances (specifically Roots of the Mountain and Stonefoot Stance) are very Breachgnome in flavor. Now, I just gotta flesh out some kind of build...

Oh, and also persuade my DM of the virtues of ToB, as my game was canceled last week, so I didn't get to chance to be all persuasive and what not...