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View Full Version : [4E] Monk - is this ability as powerful as I think it is?



holywhippet
2010-03-31, 08:38 PM
Spinning Leopard Maneuver - you shift your speed and make a dex vs. reflex attacks against every opponent you are adjacent to during the shift. Damage is 3d8 + dex or half damage if you miss.

Now if your monk is in this scenario:

EEE
E E
E E
E E
E E
E E
E E
EME

E = enemy, M = monk

You'd be shifting 6 squares (possibly more if you've some way of boosting your speed) and getting an attack against every enemy along that line = 17 attacks.

Am I missing something? That seems a bit too good for a level 1 daily. Admittedly my example is contrived but it might still allow you to make a lot of attacks.

Kaun
2010-03-31, 08:42 PM
How often will 17 targets be set up in a way where that is possible?

and what are the exact details on the power. ie Daily/Encounter level ect ect.

Alex112524
2010-03-31, 08:48 PM
How often will 17 targets be set up in a way where that is possible?

and what are the exact details on the power. ie Daily/Encounter level ect ect.


Am I missing something? That seems a bit too good for a level 1 daily.

There is the answer to your question, and about the power, I agree with Kaun, unless the DM is specifically setting up the monk for some serious badassitude, hitting an extreme number of targets probably won't come up enough to make it as powerful as you think it is.

Arakune
2010-03-31, 08:52 PM
It would be interesting if you could circle a single target and make multiple attacks by that reading :smallbiggrin:

tyckspoon
2010-03-31, 08:53 PM
It still seems like a pretty good power, but that's because it lets you make a tactical move (most shifts are very short range, this gives you the same as your normal move) and potentially escape from/attack multiple distant targets. For raw numbers of attacks? Well, if your enemies obligingly stand in 3x3 squares, a Wizard can make 9 attacks! Every round at will! ZOMG! :smallwink:

holywhippet
2010-03-31, 08:55 PM
Maybe not quite that many targets, but I could forsee having 5-6 enemies close enough in a single battle to hit all of them. The damage is effectively 3W + dex for each target which is the kind of damage you'd expect to do to a single target for most other 1st level dailys.

NEO|Phyte
2010-03-31, 08:58 PM
It gets extra crazy if you have the Epic-tier feat that lets you move through enemy squares. Though by then you'd probably be swinging the l15 daily that is basically the same thing, only with slightly higher damage and prone on a hit.

Sir Homeslice
2010-03-31, 08:58 PM
Guys, a Scorching Burst with Enlarge Spell and a Cinder Wand tacked on can deal 25d6+100 total damage if I get 25 enemies to cluster up in a 5x5 square. Man this is ridiculous.

In all seriousness, no. You're exaggerating Spinning Leopard Maneuver heavily. The chances of you being able to use SLM down a hallway of enemies designed exactly like that is astronomically low to the point where you might as well wait around for three lightning bolts you hit you in a row on three different day.

Alex112524
2010-03-31, 09:08 PM
Guys, a Scorching Burst with Enlarge Spell and a Cinder Wand tacked on can deal 25d6+100 total damage if I get 25 enemies to cluster up in a 5x5 square. Man this is ridiculous.

Well, holywhippet's example is dealing 51d8+68 (assuming 18 dex) damage, which DOES soundly beat the damage output of your example attack :smallbiggrin:

BobTheDog
2010-03-31, 09:13 PM
Not to mention:

You have to HIT all those guys. Unless something weird is going on, it shouldn't be too easy.

If there's actually 17 (or any absurdly high number) monsters around they're most likely minions, so those 3d8 + Dex are moot.

That said, it is a nice power and a very strong power. Broken? I don't think so, but maybe WotC will turn their nerf bat on, who knows?

Sir Homeslice
2010-03-31, 09:15 PM
Well, holywhippet's example is dealing 51d8+68 (assuming 18 dex) damage, which DOES soundly beat the damage output of your example attack :smallbiggrin:

Yeah but my example is an At-Will.

holywhippet
2010-03-31, 09:19 PM
Well, holywhippet's example is dealing 51d8+68 (assuming 18 dex) damage, which DOES soundly beat the damage output of your example attack :smallbiggrin:

Honestly I'd assume 20 DEX - monks really love that stat from what I can see.

I'm mainly comparing it to daily powers from other strikers like rogues or rangers. None of their level 1 dailys seem to offer nearly as much potential damage.

BobTheDog
2010-03-31, 09:32 PM
Well, one I always remember is Blinding Barrage. Though it doesn't deal nearly as much damage, it has the potential to hit 9 targets for the equivalent of 18d6+45 (assuming 20 dex and no feats). BUT, it'll also blind the targets for one turn, essentially applying -2 to defenses and -5 to attacks for those monsters.

krossbow
2010-03-31, 09:44 PM
So basically, if your foes line up in a big straight line for some reason, then your monk can rape them. Overall, i'd say that's natural selection at work more than the move being OP.

El Dorado
2010-03-31, 09:52 PM
Ahahahaha. We have come full circle. I never thought I would see the words "monk" and "powerful" in the same sentence.

On topic: it seems fine. Lots of foes have good reflex saves. Honestly, if this speeds up combat, I'll take it.

Artanis
2010-03-31, 10:02 PM
Oh, don't forget the Ranger power that lets you shoot everybody.

theMycon
2010-04-01, 12:01 AM
Beyond which- even if they are lined up exactly perfectly so you can run down a hallway and end surrounded by enemies... what if they survive? You've suddenly got 8 pissed-off enemies in melee range, already flanking.

DSCrankshaw
2010-04-01, 12:18 AM
The real fun part is that this is not considered the most powerful monk level 1 daily. That's Harmonious Thunder. Of course, that's partly based on a rather... generous reading of the power, which while it may be technically RAW, certainly isn't RAI.

Hint: If the damage done by Harmonious Thunder also triggers this power, it's an auto-kill for one enemy, and it puts some serious hurt on the other.

Actually, I'd probably rate Masterful Spiral stronger than Spinning Leopard Maneuver for anyone with a speed of 6 or less. Close burst 2 plus reach 2 for the rest of the encounter is really good.

Kaun
2010-04-01, 01:20 AM
There is the answer to your question.

Bugger me how did i miss that, i need a coffee

Optimystik
2010-04-01, 06:25 AM
Ahahahaha. We have come full circle. I never thought I would see the words "monk" and "powerful" in the same sentence.

Had they made monks psionic from the start, we could have gotten here much sooner. :smallyuk:

hamishspence
2010-04-01, 06:37 AM
What if they're staggered out a bit like men on a draughts board?

You can change direction while shifting, as far as I know.

You wouldn't necessarily be able to the maximum possible number, but you might be able to attack quite a lot.

tcrudisi
2010-04-01, 06:59 AM
What if they're staggered out a bit like men on a draughts board?

You can change direction while shifting, as far as I know.

You wouldn't necessarily be able to the maximum possible number, but you might be able to attack quite a lot.

I realize I'm comparing a level 1 daily to a level 7 encounter power, but it sort of reminds me of Spark Form for the Sorc. Spark Form allows you to shift your movement +2 and pass through enemies squares. While moving, you rub your feet vigorously against carpet so you can shock people as you leave their squares. I can usually catch 3 people in it, which is really good.

The monk one has a couple of drawbacks: it's based on your speed and it's a daily. However, it also lets you make attacks against enemies that are adjacent, rather than those you enter into their square, so the potential for hitting more monsters is still there. Even considering the drawbacks, I bet it's a really good daily. The Sorc enc power is nothing short of awesome and the Monk power is close enough to also be very good.

However, I don't have a frame of reference. I don't know any of the other monk powers so I can't say whether that's the best monk daily of that level.

Considering the burst 1's and blast 3's at character creation, you won't often hit as many people as frequently as some of your peers. Heck, rogues get a few blast 3's and what-not, and they are considered sub-optimal as it's the rogue's job to take down one target fast... which doesn't happen with a blast 3. That might also be the case here. (I really don't know monks).

Evard
2010-04-01, 08:18 AM
Watch out though the DM may use something like a line of minions down a hallway to get you to use your daily on some grunts XD At least I know I'm that evil :p

tcrudisi
2010-04-01, 01:05 PM
Watch out though the DM may use something like a line of minions down a hallway to get you to use your daily on some grunts XD At least I know I'm that evil :p

If that happened to me, I would cheer. Sure, I only killed minions... but if I took out 17 minions? Think of the image: your monk goes into a flurry, stepping nimbly around enemies and stabbing them the moment they let their defenses down. In the span of two-three seconds, all the monks foes lie dead before him.

To me, that visual image is actually cooler than if the enemies were all normal monsters. They would likely survive a hit, so all the monk did was manage to get himself cut off from his allies and look silly doing it... since he didn't manage to kill anyone and now he's surrounded.

I'm not saying the best use is to use the powers against minions: rather, I would be more excited if I killed 17 minions and would use the daily even if I knew they were minions. Epic. Just pure epic.

Kaiyanwang
2010-04-01, 02:58 PM
Had they made monks psionic from the start, we could have gotten here much sooner. :smallyuk:

You mean, psywarrior? The one in SRD?

vartan
2010-04-02, 10:55 AM
The chances of you being able to use SLM down a hallway of enemies designed exactly like that is astronomically low...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OzB-mop6AA.

Please admit this is related.

sonofzeal
2010-04-02, 12:01 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OzB-mop6AA.

Please admit this is related.
Can the imaginary training of fifteen years be put to use?




Yes. It can.

Evard
2010-04-02, 12:09 PM
If that happened to me, I would cheer. Sure, I only killed minions... but if I took out 17 minions? Think of the image: your monk goes into a flurry, stepping nimbly around enemies and stabbing them the moment they let their defenses down. In the span of two-three seconds, all the monks foes lie dead before him.

To me, that visual image is actually cooler than if the enemies were all normal monsters. They would likely survive a hit, so all the monk did was manage to get himself cut off from his allies and look silly doing it... since he didn't manage to kill anyone and now he's surrounded.

I'm not saying the best use is to use the powers against minions: rather, I would be more excited if I killed 17 minions and would use the daily even if I knew they were minions. Epic. Just pure epic.


Ah but the next room would have 17 non minions :P

When I DM'ed 4th edition I would mess with my players by putting them up against what ended up being a minion version of Orcus (twas an Orcus wanna be). The striker and leader both expended 2 of their dailies and missed, then finally the controller hit with a daily and killed him haha! They were shaking their heads and laughing about it....then decided to buy the glasses that shows you the amount of HP an enemy has :p

NeoVid
2010-04-02, 02:14 PM
It's a really excellent daily. But Masterful Spiral is just about as good, and Harmonious Thunder... is getting errata in a few days, so it doesn't count.

Myshlaevsky
2010-04-02, 02:52 PM
It gets extra crazy if you have the Epic-tier feat that lets you move through enemy squares. Though by then you'd probably be swinging the l15 daily that is basically the same thing, only with slightly higher damage and prone on a hit.

So if you had both, you could knock them all prone and double back? That would be great if it ever came up.