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Mark Hall
2010-04-01, 04:18 PM
Ok, so you know any effect that affects you. You know how much of what kind of damage, and when it will end.

Do you necessarily know what's going to happen before you do it? If hitting a target will inflict X damage on you, do you know it before it happens?

I ask because last week, we were fighting some swordwraiths, and my Avenger has a couple powers that cause damage to the next people who hit me... the radiant damage we needed. However, they declined to hit me because of the radiant. By RAW, would they know?

Kurald Galain
2010-04-01, 04:24 PM
Do you necessarily know what's going to happen before you do it? If hitting a target will inflict X damage on you, do you know it before it happens?
Yes. The intent of the game is to hide no information from the players, so that they do not get nasty surprises as a result of the decisions they take. As a result, anyone hit by an effect like "whenever you move, you fall prone" knows this before he decides whether to move or not.

Hzurr
2010-04-01, 04:29 PM
It also could be that they never had any incentive to hit you, when there was a nice shaman with low defenses to pick on, or they were messing with the fighter and couldn't have gotten away to attack you even if they had wanted to.

(In all honesty, there was never a moment where the wraiths didn't attack you because of the radient; it was always because there was a better target.)


And also, by RAW, they would have known.

Mark Hall
2010-04-01, 04:34 PM
It also could be that they never had any incentive to hit you, when there was a nice shaman with low defenses to pick on, or they were messing with the fighter and couldn't have gotten away to attack you even if they had wanted to.

(In all honesty, there was never a moment where the wraiths didn't attack you because of the radient; it was always because there was a better target.)


And also, by RAW, they would have known.

Dude, there was a point, when the wraith and Starscream had me flanked, where the wraith specifically ate the OA because of radiant damage. You said it with your own mouth.

I'm cool with the RAW, and even had it just been a ruling... just wanted to be sure.

DabblerWizard
2010-04-01, 04:35 PM
Yes. The intent of the game is to hide no information from the players, so that they do not get nasty surprises as a result of the decisions they take. As a result, anyone hit by an effect like "whenever you move, you fall prone" knows this before he decides whether to move or not.

Could you point me to a page where this mechanic is made explicit by RAW?

Even if this exists by RAW, I would rule that it doesn't make sense for characters to know and understand up-coming status effects automatically, in game. Players would need to make a knowledge check of some sort (e.g. arcana), or they would have to be familiar with the creature.

kc0bbq
2010-04-01, 04:57 PM
I don't recall seeing that anywhere, either. My players don't seem to care that they don't know what things they haven't seen before do and have to figure it out or make checks.

Monsters don't either. Things with variable resistance aren't going to have their resistance set optimally, they'll set them reactively.

I think it's kind of silly to tell them what's happening ahead of time.

tcrudisi
2010-04-01, 05:08 PM
Could you point me to a page where this mechanic is made explicit by RAW?

Even if this exists by RAW, I would rule that it doesn't make sense for characters to know and understand up-coming status effects automatically, in game. Players would need to make a knowledge check of some sort (e.g. arcana), or they would have to be familiar with the creature.

PHB page 57, last paragraph:

Whenever you affect a creature with a power, that creature knows exactly what you’ve done to it and what conditions you’ve imposed. For example, when a paladin uses divine challenge against an enemy, the enemy knows that it has been marked and that it will therefore take a penalty to attack rolls and some damage if it attacks anyone aside from the paladin.

PHB page 57, under the Target section says the following:

“Creature” or “creatures” means allies and enemies both, as well as you.

So we've established that whenever a power is used on a creature, that creature (both players and monsters) know all conditions imposed, even knowing minute details such as a paladin's mark will cause it a penalty to attack and some damage IF it attacks. The only thing left is to determine if monsters attacks count as powers.

That leads us to the Monster Manual, page 7 at the very beginning:

Attack Powers
Attack powers are presented so that basic attacks appear first, followed by the monster’s other powers.

As such, it seems clear to me that both players and monsters know when any effect on them will hinder them, even if it is something such as "if you move, you fall prone."

You argue that it doesn't make sense... I argue that it's your (the DMs) job to have it make sense. If the player has an effect on them that says they fall prone if they try to move... well, tell them that they've taken a hit to the leg and they fear it will collapse if they put weight on it. That makes sense, adds some flavor to the game, and informs the players of what they need to know to react properly.

Kurald Galain
2010-04-01, 05:11 PM
If the player has an effect on them that says they fall prone if they try to move...

That means their shoelaces are tied together :smallbiggrin:

tcrudisi
2010-04-01, 05:14 PM
Do you necessarily know what's going to happen before you do it? If hitting a target will inflict X damage on you, do you know it before it happens?

I ask because last week, we were fighting some swordwraiths, and my Avenger has a couple powers that cause damage to the next people who hit me... the radiant damage we needed. However, they declined to hit me because of the radiant. By RAW, would they know?

Okay, previously I answered a different question than what you asked. By RAW: there is nothing that says you will know about an effect on another creature. You only know about the effects on YOU. As such, you would not know that you will take 5 points of damage from hitting a creature until you hit it. Live and learn.

Now, as a DM, if my monsters are smart, they will communicate (since talking is a free action). When one of them hits you, he'll communicate something to the effect of, "ARRR! (yes, it's a pirate) That slimey bloke be smacking me back with his hocus pocus when I hit him. Be wary, lest the no-good ninja be the death of us all!"

If my monsters are stupid, they will say something like, "ARRR! (of course he's stupid -- he's a pirate) Pain hurt!" Then all the others will proceed to attack and get hurt, while saying, "Depp be right! Pain hurt!"

I hope that settled some confusion.

ninja_penguin
2010-04-01, 05:27 PM
For my players, I generally only tell them effects when they are hit with them. (i.e. the monster's attack hits you. You are slowed, and will provide combat advantage to the monster that attacked you or anything dealing cold damage), but not things that aren't directly affecting them unless it's something obvious (for example, I neglect to mention regeneration until the monster is bloodied. For another example, if nobody hits the knowledge roll, I don't tell them that a shambling mound is immune to lightning).

Overall, it's something I try and describe as much as possible. If something has an aura or something similar, make it obvious that stepping into it will hurt you. You don't necessarily need to say 'it will do X damage' until they step into it, but make it clear that something is going to hurt them if they step into it.