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term1nally s1ck
2010-04-02, 10:54 AM
Ok, so it's come to my attention that Telekinesis can lift youself. Here's what I propose.

Shut your eyes.

You now have a 50% miss chance on attack rolls.

You throw yourself at the planet/continent....and miss. Congratulations, you're the first D&D character in space. Well, since the last time somebody rolled a nat one on an attempt to slam somebody into the ground.

Comet
2010-04-02, 10:56 AM
Congratulations, you're the first D&D character in space.

It's actually quite crowded up there. See Spelljammer for details.

PersonMan
2010-04-02, 11:02 AM
Ok, so it's come to my attention that Telekinesis can lift youself. Here's what I propose.

Shut your eyes.

You now have a 50% miss chance on attack rolls.

You throw yourself at the planet/continent....and miss. Congratulations, you're the first D&D character in space. Well, since the last time somebody rolled a nat one on an attempt to slam somebody into the ground.

Slamming into the ground isn't an attack, it's grapple.

The ground wins. You're pinned. Want to try and escape?

term1nally s1ck
2010-04-02, 11:17 AM
Who said I'm making a touch attack? :smalltongue:

Looking at it, the continent thing is better, as a far more efficient way to travel :smallbiggrin:

marjan
2010-04-02, 11:25 AM
You throw yourself at the planet/continent....and miss.

Don't forget to roll d8 to see where you land. Also throw in Murky Eyed for better chance of missing. :smalltongue:

taltamir
2010-04-02, 11:28 AM
when blinded you cannot target specific things, only a "square" where you think they are. if using a thrown object (for example, your body), a miss means you land in a nearby square.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-02, 11:31 AM
I like to think of myself as ammo not a weapon like Shuiken ammo attack.
So if you attack the ground: 50% chance you are destroyed or go to space from missing.

taltamir
2010-04-02, 11:38 AM
I like to think of myself as ammo not a weapon like Shuiken ammo attack.
So if you attack the ground: 50% chance you are destroyed or go to space from missing.

destroyed ammo does not evaporate into space, it simply breaks and is no longer suitable for use... its components are obviously still there. In fact, it still deals damage to whatever it hits, you just cant "recover" it for reuse.

Zergrusheddie
2010-04-02, 11:40 AM
destroyed ammo does not evaporate into space, it simply breaks and is no longer suitable for use....

That makes the imagery a lot, lot worse :smallyuk:

term1nally s1ck
2010-04-02, 12:38 PM
Well, a splat is more logical than a launch into space.

Ok, how about just debuffing my to-hit roll as much as possible? Dex 1 or Str 1, equipment I'm not proficient with, I should be able to easily miss an AC of -10 or less...add on some more nasty status effects, we could get to -20 or so.

Either that, or Take 1 on the attack roll.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-02, 12:39 PM
You can't take 1 only 10 or 20.

Knaight
2010-04-02, 06:03 PM
destroyed ammo does not evaporate into space, it simply breaks and is no longer suitable for use... its components are obviously still there. In fact, it still deals damage to whatever it hits, you just cant "recover" it for reuse.

Which has an annoying tendency of being really dumb. Arrows are reusable, and if they hit armored people it might need a few tweaks. Yes they can break, but the assumption they do is terrible. Bolts this is even more true for, and sling bullets deform but can be tossed in a mold and fixed. And that is only the lead bullets, stones shouldn't break, iron was used occasionally, and there are dart slings.

taltamir
2010-04-02, 06:52 PM
Which has an annoying tendency of being really dumb. Arrows are reusable, and if they hit armored people it might need a few tweaks. Yes they can break, but the assumption they do is terrible. Bolts this is even more true for, and sling bullets deform but can be tossed in a mold and fixed. And that is only the lead bullets, stones shouldn't break, iron was used occasionally, and there are dart slings.

i think the assumption is that you don't do any of that... you just reuse it if it is in perfect shape, and if it isn't you leave it rather then waste your time repairing a 1cp arrow.

however, the only time it really matters is when you are strapped for arrows... like when you are trapped somewhere without your gear or some such. in which case you should take the time to fix them up.

graeylin
2010-04-02, 08:20 PM
I always played that your attack roll wasn't a "strike" or "hit", but whether you managed to inflict damage. IE, even on a roll of 2, the level 1 wizard managed to HIT the armored paladin, but the strike was feeble, and easily absorbed by the armor. Or blocked by his blade.

Thus, you don't have a 50% chance to miss hitting the earth, just a 50% chance of not damaging it.


too bad the converse isn't true... who would need feather fall, I would just close my eyes when i fell, and take a 50% chance that no damage would occur...

Greenish
2010-04-02, 08:34 PM
I always played that your attack roll wasn't a "strike" or "hit", but whether you managed to inflict damage. IE, even on a roll of 2, the level 1 wizard managed to HIT the armored paladin, but the strike was feeble, and easily absorbed by the armor. Or blocked by his blade.
That's how I figure AC, yeah. The miss change from being blinded though, that's just that you swing and fail to connect.

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-02, 09:36 PM
I always played that your attack roll wasn't a "strike" or "hit", but whether you managed to inflict damage. IE, even on a roll of 2, the level 1 wizard managed to HIT the armored paladin, but the strike was feeble, and easily absorbed by the armor. Or blocked by his blade.

Damn, so now AC is how hard you hit, and HP is how many more times you can dodge?

Player 1: I hit his AC of 25! Take 29 damage!
DM: Alright, he manages to deflect your blade at the last second.
Player 2: Aw, I miss.
DM: You strike his ribs, but not hard enough to pierce through his mail armor.

:smallconfused:

Also, this reminds me of This (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/09/05/episode-1169-aaahhhh/) strip, and the one after it.

OracleofWuffing
2010-04-02, 11:06 PM
It is possible to throw a weapon that isnít designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesnít have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Hm... I see rules regarding things that aren't designed to be thrown, but last time I checked, PC's were meant for throwin', so... What are we looking at for a range increment for yourself?

Oh, and also for the record:


If a telekinesed creature is hurled against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points).
:smallconfused: So much for going splat if you hit? Is this going to turn into some healing drowning thing, where if you're falling 10,000 feet you can cast telekinesis (just forget feather fall exists right now) to negate most of the damage?

tyckspoon
2010-04-02, 11:18 PM
however, the only time it really matters is when you are strapped for arrows... like when you are trapped somewhere without your gear or some such. in which case you should take the time to fix them up.

Or when you inevitably start using magic ammo, at which point it becomes really stupid that your magically-toughened +5 (from the bow you launched them with) flaming frost Bane arrows always shatter themselves on your enemies.

Cuaqchi
2010-04-02, 11:35 PM
Which has an annoying tendency of being really dumb. Arrows are reusable, and if they hit armored people it might need a few tweaks. Yes they can break, but the assumption they do is terrible. Bolts this is even more true for, and sling bullets deform but can be tossed in a mold and fixed. And that is only the lead bullets, stones shouldn't break, iron was used occasionally, and there are dart slings.

This is 100% complete garbage. Ammunition, especially arrows cannot be reused without considerable effort.

For Arrows) We have damage to flights that occurs as part of firing, this alters the aerodynamic properties of the arrow so significantly that to fire again would be as inaccurate as early musket fire. We also have damage to the shaft and the head based on what if anything the object hits, steel armour for example may cause the wooden shaft to splinter and weaken, and as such be irrepairable.

For Bolts) The mechanical forces applied to the bolt along with the effects of any impact seriously degrade the value of the head and shaft, this damage may be repairable with heavier metal quarrels but a light wooden bolt would be in worse condition than an arrow if it struck something.

For Bullets) Deformation of the lead will occur with any impact, however anyone with the tools and skill (2 Ranks would seem appropriate) would be able to recast the bullet given time. You would not be able to reuse the round in the field though, as the recasting process for a lead bullet is measured in hours of time not minutes as the material is air cooled.

taltamir
2010-04-03, 12:01 AM
Or when you inevitably start using magic ammo, at which point it becomes really stupid that your magically-toughened +5 (from the bow you launched them with) flaming frost Bane arrows always shatter themselves on your enemies.

magic ammo expands its magic AFAIK when launched... that means that even if you recover the arrow its just a plain non magical arrow now.

trmptfnfr
2010-04-03, 06:34 AM
This is 100% complete garbage. Ammunition, especially arrows cannot be reused without considerable effort.

For Arrows) We have damage to flights that occurs as part of firing, this alters the aerodynamic properties of the arrow so significantly that to fire again would be as inaccurate as early musket fire. We also have damage to the shaft and the head based on what if anything the object hits, steel armour for example may cause the wooden shaft to splinter and weaken, and as such be irrepairable.
Damage to an arrow after hitting an armor I get.

But will the act of being fired really ruin the arrow?
I don't really see what part of the arrow would be altered as to make the arrow practically shoot sideways.
Maybe there's something I don't get about the intricacies of sticks, feathers and metal.

Cuaqchi
2010-04-03, 09:26 AM
It is actually a complex effect based on how an arrow flies, bowing up and down as it moves, that causes any small change to render it virtually unusable after firing. If it were just a matter of travelling in a straight line it would be fine, but everytime the item is handled you alter its properties.

KillianHawkeye
2010-04-03, 10:12 AM
You can't take 1 only 10 or 20.

You can't take anything on attack rolls.

Poil
2010-04-03, 11:21 AM
Couldn't you make arrows with mithral shafts or something more durable?

John Campbell
2010-04-03, 12:38 PM
It is actually a complex effect based on how an arrow flies, bowing up and down as it moves, that causes any small change to render it virtually unusable after firing. If it were just a matter of travelling in a straight line it would be fine, but everytime the item is handled you alter its properties.

I must be just imagining my quiver full of arrows that are almost always fine for re-use after being shot into targets, target frames, target frame hardware, underbrush, trees, rocks, the ground, each other, etc. I've even shot armor with them... (that was intended to test the armor, not the arrows, but it works both ways...)

(Of course, if you're firing your arrows, I can see why they wouldn't be good for much after that...)

((Sorry. Pet peeve.))

In any case, if you're having trouble with insufficient ammo supply because they're breaking too much, see if you can talk your DM into letting you count the broken ammo as the necessary raw materials for Crafting a new one. The DC is easy, and, at 20 sp or less apiece, they're so cheap that you should be able to bang out replacements while sitting around the campfire in the evening. Or crammed into a rope trick with the wizard's elbow in your ear; however the kids are doing it these days.

Defiant
2010-04-03, 01:26 PM
You can't take 1 only 10 or 20.

Taking 20 is taking 1, so yes, you can take 1. Just not on things like attack rolls.

term1nally s1ck
2010-04-03, 01:41 PM
Whaen I say 'take 1' I mean just repeat til a 1 is scored.

Cuaqchi
2010-04-03, 01:45 PM
Were you using modern Carbon Fibre arrows or historically accurate wooden arrows? Were the flights made of syntehetic polyethelene fibres, or feathers? Were the flights attached with modern adhesives or bound with rigid twine?

Modern arrows are far and away superior to what is represented in game, and unless you crafted them yourself they wouldn't be time frame appropriate as representations. Now some repairs wound be rather simple, like say refletching but others might take more time, and few if any would be able to be done a battlefield.

Roderick_BR
2010-04-03, 02:20 PM
Ok, so it's come to my attention that Telekinesis can lift youself. Here's what I propose.

Shut your eyes.

You now have a 50% miss chance on attack rolls.

You throw yourself at the planet/continent....and miss. Congratulations, you're the first D&D character in space. Well, since the last time somebody rolled a nat one on an attempt to slam somebody into the ground.
Actually, in D&D, attacking the ground is a grenade-like attack, so if you miss the attack roll, you just fall 5ft away from the intended location, so, no, in D&D you can't miss the ground at all :smalltongue:

John Campbell
2010-04-03, 02:39 PM
I've actually never shot a carbon-fiber arrow in my life.

Wooden shafts (my latest batch is poplar, which is not as good as cedar, but has the advantage of being a lot cheaper), real feathers. The nocks are plastic, admittedly, but I've actually found those to be less robust than horn or even self-nocks. They just have the advantage of being quick and easy. My current batch uses modern superglue, but that's mainly a setting-time and moisture-resistance thing. I've done them with period glue and bindings, which are maybe a little less robust, but not much, if you keep them dry. (And D&D has superglue, too, actually... it's called sovereign glue, and it's even more effective than real-world superglues.) Mainly it just takes longer and is more hassle.

I lose fletchings occasionally, heads or nocks more occasionally. The latter, most of the time, can be recovered and put back on. The former usually are actually damaged and need to be replaced completely. Damage to the shaft itself is much less common. By far the most common reason for me to lose an arrow is that I actually lose it... generally it goes into the ground at a shallow angle and buries itself completely, which makes it practically impossible to find without a metal detector. Even that isn't usual... most of the time, when I shoot an end of arrows, I expect to get them all back, and in usable condition.

Combat's going to be rougher on arrows, especially the ones that end up stuck into some critter, or someone's shield, but still, arrows do not normally become useless after being shot once.

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-04, 12:42 AM
Question to OP: Is this 3.5?

I don't understand how you're launching yourself at something so far away:

Violent Thrust
Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects.
Am I missing something?


arrows do not normally become useless after being shot once.
In D&D, they do. I think this is a moot point.

obnoxious
sig

imp_fireball
2010-04-04, 01:45 AM
That makes the imagery a lot, lot worse :smallyuk:

Mork want throw self into ground vitally!

GM: Vitally?

Player: Y'know... like vital throw? From poke'mon?

GM: Um... that's... what is that? Just tell me what you wanna do.

Player: I wanna do a body slam on the ground and see what happens.

GM: Nothing will happen. You'll fall down. You'll be prone.

Player: But my ogre half minotaur weighs 30 tons (magic items resulting in huge size, fat trait, etc.), and has like over 50 strength... I wanna see how big of a tremor I make. Blow out the ear drums of those tremor sensing giant beetles, y'know?

GM: That... that makes no sense. Tremor sense doesn't even have anything to do with ear drums and -

Player: I'm sorry, but I didn't realize you were familiar with beetle anatomy.

GM: Okay, okay, *peruses DMG*, ah, here we are. *rolls 1d8*. Okay, you land 1 space to the east of where you are and... *rolls percentage die*, break and are no longer suitable for use.

Player: What... so like I'm dead now?

GM: No... you are broken and no longer suitable for use.

Player: Like... like am I inadequet?

GM: Um... yes, you are inadequet.

Player: ....

Mork are broken and are no longer suitable for use!

Henry the bard would be obliged to insert a sexual pun in there before Joe the paladin smites my arse!

Joe the paladin will smite arse regardless. He's lawful evil after all.


You can't take 1 only 10 or 20.

Actually, you can opt to fail completely on purpose. Assuming the GM allows, either by taking 1 or taking a major penalty to your attack.

The Rabbler
2010-04-04, 02:59 AM
Mork want throw self into ground vitally!

GM: Vitally?

Player: Y'know... like vital throw? From poke'mon?

GM: Um... that's... what is that? Just tell me what you wanna do.

Player: I wanna do a body slam on the ground and see what happens.

GM: Nothing will happen. You'll fall down. You'll be prone.

Player: But my ogre half minotaur weighs 30 tons (magic items resulting in huge size, fat trait, etc.), and has like over 50 strength... I wanna see how big of a tremor I make. Blow out the ear drums of those tremor sensing giant beetles, y'know?

GM: That... that makes no sense. Tremor sense doesn't even have anything to do with ear drums and -

Player: I'm sorry, but I didn't realize you were familiar with beetle anatomy.

GM: Okay, okay, *peruses DMG*, ah, here we are. *rolls 1d8*. Okay, you land 1 space to the east of where you are and... *rolls percentage die*, break and are no longer suitable for use.

Player: What... so like I'm dead now?

GM: No... you are broken and no longer suitable for use.

Player: Like... like am I inadequet?

GM: Um... yes, you are inadequet.

Player: ....

Mork are broken and are no longer suitable for use!

Henry the bard would be obliged to insert a sexual pun in there before Joe the paladin smites my arse!

Joe the paladin will smite arse regardless. He's lawful evil after all.


this just made my night. thank you.

Iban
2010-04-04, 07:37 AM
this just made my night. thank you.

/agree I don't think I have lol'd so hard in a good year or so :smallbiggrin:

For the "It's easy, you just throw yourself at the ground...and miss."; should you not then be flying? And all this adding of debuffs means that you are surely going to hit the ground as you are actively trying to miss it, in which case you will consistently hit.

I think what this really requires is a gorgeous pair of legs or a extremely rare species of beetle. That way, as you roll the dice, you might just be distracted enough to forget about becoming inadequet and miss the ground.

I think I'll pick a nice day to try this. :smallwink:

term1nally s1ck
2010-04-04, 08:31 PM
Question to OP: Is this 3.5?

I don't understand how you're launching yourself at something so far away:

Am I missing something?

Well, in general, the floor is within 5 or 10'. I just missed, is all.

AS for the above...LOL.

And yeah, Iban has the reference :smallsmile:

taltamir
2010-04-04, 08:43 PM
Henry the bard would be obliged to insert a sexual pun in there before Joe the paladin smites my arse!

that sounded so wrong!

EpicEvokerElf
2010-04-04, 08:43 PM
I'm going to throw my 2cp in with John Campbell here; I've shot period arrows (wood, feather, twine, self nock) quite a bit (made by a friend; I don't have the patience), and never had one break or become too damaged to reuse accurately.

Flickerdart
2010-04-04, 08:45 PM
I'm going to throw my 2cp in with John Campbell here; I've shot period arrows (wood, feather, twine, self nock) quite a bit (made by a friend; I don't have the patience), and never had one break or become too damaged to reuse accurately.
Were they magic? No? There's you problem.

taltamir
2010-04-04, 08:51 PM
I'm going to throw my 2cp in with John Campbell here; I've shot period arrows (wood, feather, twine, self nock) quite a bit (made by a friend; I don't have the patience), and never had one break or become too damaged to reuse accurately.

have you shot them at ANIMALS? who were wearing ARMOR?

or did you shoot them at a target especially made for arrows and mounted on bale?

John Campbell
2010-04-05, 01:36 AM
Note that I'm not disputing that arrows used in combat situations can and will get broken. I suspect the D&D rules for it are a little on the draconian side, but given how cheap arrows are, and how easy it is to Craft replacements even with little to no skill investment, I don't see that as a big problem.

What I was taking issue with was specifically Cuaqchi's assertion that it's normal for simply shooting an arrow once to somehow damage it so that it can't be accurately shot again. Which is, as they say, 100% complete garbage.

(And I have no problem at all with magic ammo expending its magic and becoming unusable after one shot.)

taltamir
2010-04-05, 03:26 AM
I agree with that.
a bigger pet peve of mine is the ridiculous ranges on bows, the ridiculous accuracy at long range, and actual penalties at short range. obviously they have never ever fired a real bow

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-05, 04:28 AM
I agree with that.
a bigger pet peve of mine is the ridiculous ranges on bows, the ridiculous accuracy at long range, and actual penalties at short range. obviously they have never ever fired a real bow

There are weather rules which mess with ranged weapon accuracy. It's not perfect, arguably, but it's something.

I'm pretty sure the designers never fought in real armor, with real swords, against real dragons, or threw real fireballs either.

Ridiculous range on bows? The standard D&D longbow has a range increment of 100 feet. A projectile weapon can fire out to 10 range increments, though at this range they are wildly inaccurate (-20 to hit). According to the cited wikipedia entry of the English Longbow, "a flight arrow of a professional archer in Edward III's time could reach 400 yds."

I would be more concerned with the ability of anyone of sufficient strength to simply pick up a longbow and use it at full BAB, if we're nitpicking at D&D for accuracy. There are a lot larger gaping holes than the archery component. I mean, this is a game with dragons and giants and wizards who can summon giant walls of iron from thin air. The laws of physics in such a world are more like broad outlines.

Wonder why the default setting isn't some sort of Tippyverse.

Deep breath, move on.

Back on topic:
Okay, so I understand that the idea is to throw oneself at the ground, which is within the range of the telekinesis spell, but how does missing launch you into space?


If you miss the target (whether aiming at a creature or a grid intersection), roll 1d8. This determines the misdirection of the throw, with 1 being straight back at you and 2 through 8 counting clockwise around the grid intersection or target creature. Then, count a number of squares in the indicated direction equal to the range increment of the throw.

Or are you treating yourself not as a splash weapon but as a projectile in this case? Because if that is the argument, I don't believe the RAW has anything to say about where projectiles that miss end up.

obnoxious
sig

Iban
2010-04-05, 07:26 AM
And yeah, Iban has the reference :smallsmile:

woop woop :smallbiggrin: I really need to read that book again :/

term1nally s1ck
2010-04-05, 12:28 PM
I'm treating myself as a projectile, and aiming at the colossal ++++++++++++ object that is the planet. If I don't hit the planet, I'm either now flying, or headed into space.

EDIT: Or in orbit.