The Splatman?

[Captainocaptain]

So I've heard a lot about the Batman-Wizard, and all the Cheeze people have given him are from splatbooks. So My challenge is... build a Batman Wizard using only the PHB, DMG, MMI. The original 3.5 books only. The 3 core books. Call them what you will.
So, can you build batman without his splatbooks? is the batman wizard really splatman? Go to it my fellow playgrounders!

[Starbuck_II]

So I've heard a lot about the Batman-Wizard, and all the Cheeze people have given him are from splatbooks. So My challenge is... build a Batman Wizard using only the PHB, DMG, MMI. The original 3.5 books only. The 3 core books. Call them what you will.
So, can you build batman without his splatbooks? is the batman wizard really splatman? Go to it my fellow playgrounders!

No, you thinkin of God-wizard.
Batman-Wizard came from Core. He is enhanced by non-core.
Haste is Core. Evard's Black tentacles are Core.

[Captainocaptain]

Sure you can have a versatile wizard in Core, but I have yet to hear of an unbeatable core build wizard.
Give me something completely abusable. I'm running a campaign in which 3 of the 5 players are power gamers, its a very high magic world, all of them have some form of arcane magic. One of them is a strait wizard, though. I want to see just how broken he can possibly get so I am prepared. Just give me your best shot.

[Smiling Knight]

Also, Batman does not use "Cheeze." Cheese is chain gating. Cheese is twinned-empowered-quickened orbs of force. Intelligent, non-blasty play is not cheese.

[Captainocaptain]

Exactly! I'm not too worried about Intelligent playing, and such. I'm wondering what a wizard can do to break the game using just core (Wish spell non-withstanding).
I dont care if a smart wizard can use trickery and guile, and stuff. I'm worried that there is something like chain gating in core that I'm not aware of. Something a wizard can to that BREAKS the game. Something that will really screw with a good villain that doesn't just involve smarts, but is borderline cheating.

[Coidzor]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm + Wish SLA.

Unlimited power on the magic items that can be created as long as they're not making Artifacts.

Which means unlimited staves and wands, which means any spell that they can put on a staff or comes in wand form, they don't have to use of their own slots.

[Godskook]

Exactly! I'm not too worried about Intelligent playing, and such. I'm wondering what a wizard can do to break the game using just core (Wish spell non-withstanding).
I dont care if a smart wizard can use trickery and guile, and stuff. I'm worried that there is something like chain gating in core that I'm not aware of. Something a wizard can to that BREAKS the game. Something that will really screw with a good villain that doesn't just involve smarts, but is borderline cheating.

Then you're confused. The batman wizard's concept is mostly smarts, backed up by smart spell selection.

As for what you are looking for, concern yourself with polymorph abuses. It is one of the earliest 'broken' spells on the wizard's spell list, and it gets upgrades over time.

I also suggest you read over the Test of Spite rule set. Its pretty much pinpoints every last broken combo out there, that's been found by now.

[Captainocaptain]

Great. Can you post me a link? Also what are some other abuseable spells?
I know Timestop, but thats too obvious for my players. They really like to screw with the rules, in... er, creative ways.

[Godskook]

Here you go:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135097

[Eldariel]

Sigh. Test of Spite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135097). Alright, short list:
- Shrink Item: Shrink boulders, shrink weapons, shrink whatever and propel them at something you dislike (once they leave your possession, they grow). For example. Too many uses to note here.
- Explosive Runes: No limit on the number of times you can cast it. Cast it at your maximum CL on item a dozen times, then Dispel said item at your minimum CL; you fail your Dispel-check and the item goes boom for couple of hundred d6s.
- Alter Self: Not really abusable, but way stronger than a level 2-spell should be; +6 NA, flight, etc. and that's without getting to Outside forms for LAd races.
- Polymorph: Hydra-forms, Remorzahs, Giants, etc. - just way stronger stat buff than a level 4 spell has any business being and that's without getting into stuff that gives access to SLAs.
- Lesser Planar Binding: Gate in anything with SLAs. Win Cha-check (as you can optimize yours while the target can't as you called a default (MM) individual, you can just debuff it and buff yourself long enough to make the check no matter the initial odds). Make it your bitch. Win. Nightmares are nice on this level (Astral Projection & Etherealness on level 9? Nice.), and Succubi have their uses. Like making up for loneliness.
- Contact Other Plane: Basically allows you to know everything ever provided you bother casting it often enough. If BBEG uses this, the party is doomed before the campaign even begins. Nothing blocks this. Taking 10 or using stat boosters or whatever and just...well, sufficient to say, Knowledge is Power.
- Planar Binding: Yeah, this one can get Efreeti that grants you Wishes. Or e.g. Glabrezu or such. Basically, spells that get you Outsiders and make them your bitches with a simple check they can't optimize due to their captivity while you can are bad, mmkay?
- Awaken: Polymorph into a legal target for this, Awaken yourself. Gets you whatever Int you want and +1d4 Cha. Repeat ad nauseam.
- Simulacrum: See Planar Binding, remove any need for Charisma-checks or such and make copies of anything. Beyond busted, obviously. XP-cost, but who cares when your first Simulacrum can make you infi number more (get something with SLA Wish or such). If necessary, the components don't have a GP cost so Eschew Materials removes the need for 'em.
- Greater Planar Binding: Same as Planar Binding, except it can also get you e.g. Pit Fiends.
- Polymorph Any Object: Permanent Polymorphing with type change is bad, mmkay? You can become anything permanently to qualify for things you have no business qualifying for, you can just maintain an infi-tough form (from the "low-powered" end of uses for still spell) and so on. Two castings makes any change Permanent on the second casting (since first one gets you close enough to count as Permanent). Oh yeah, this can raise your base Int to pretty sick numbers. And by examples, can break HD limits and such... Yeah.

Level 9 spells: These are, as a rule, so horribly broken you don't even need effort to break them. Yes, Time Stop breaks action economy something severe (and can easily construct death cages or gate in a dozen Solars or whatever so any fight without equivalent or stronger caster under CR ~50 becomes a cakewalk).

Shapechange gives you any creature's abilities including Supernatural Abilities and Extraordinary Qualities; double actions, infinite Con, whatever.

Disjunction just plain removes any magical protections ever and blows up artifacts and such.

Gate allows you to Gate in CR 40something creatures or just a Solar and as it's your bitch on short servitude, you can order it to use its Gate to Gate another Solar in too and repeat this with the new Solar (by ordering the first Solar) and so on to generate an infinite army of Solars. For example.

Astral Projection allows you to effectively adventure immortally. You died? No problem, that was just your Astral Replica; absolutely nothing happened to you!

And yeah. Level 9 spells are just a bit dumb.


Note, I didn't touch upon "strong" spells here (outside Alter Self at any rate); stuff like Contingency, Glitterdust, Grease, Web, Stinking Cloud, Color Spray, Sleep, Haste, Slow, Pyrotechnics, Plane Shift, Solid Fog, Greater Teleport, Maze, Irresistible Dance, Mind Blank, Greater Scrying, etc. Those aren't broken in that you can't really go around breaking the rules so bad CRs need to go up by another 10 or so points (or contain casters doing the same) for challenge to exist. They're merely incredibly powerful.

Core spells as a rule are stronger than non-Core spells with a handful of exceptions; basically, non-Core adds a bunch of "strong but non-gamebreaker spells" to the mix (oh, and Celerity) while Core breaks the game in a hundred different ways. If you ban Core and allow all non-Core material, your game will still be less broken than Core-only pulling all the stops.

[Captainocaptain]

I'm working on some fixes right now to make things a little neater. Right now I've got:
1 Creatures not on this plane by their own inclination can not bring other creatures to them, and are free to interpret commands given to them in any manor they see fit. (should fix solar gating solar gating solar, etc) (should also make it really easy to screw with the players when they tell the ginni to grant them 3 wishes: ginni:"of course what do you want?" player:"ultimate arcane power" ginni:"mmmkaay. Not that wish. Do you have a different one? I said 3 wishes, I never said which 3")

2 Spells that change your shape or type do not stack, instead they are treated as a new casting on the base creature (so a human who is polymorphed is still considered human even if they are polymorphed as a dog, dragon, or what have you)

3 You always succeed when attempting to dispel your own spells

4 Polymorph spells etc. can not change your form into anything with higher ECL than your caster level

5 Contact other plane spells: you must succeed on a (Secret) Cha check, or you get false information (DC depends on the information you are trying to obtain)

6 Simulacrum can not create more Simulacrum.

I'm not sure about some of the others though.
But what do you guys think?
EDIT: Dont worry about the ginni example, I know its mean, but its all I could think of right now. I wont be that mean to my players unless they REALLY deserve it.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

EDIT: Dont worry about the ginni example, I know its mean, but its all I could think of right now. I wont be that mean to my players unless they REALLY deserve it.To be honest you can be much meaner when it comes to wish subversion. Depends on how 'deserving' the players are, I suppose.

[Eldariel]

I'm working on some fixes right now to make things a little neater. Right now I've got:
1 Creatures not on this plane by their own inclination can not bring other creatures to them, and are free to interpret commands given to them in any manor they see fit. (should fix solar gating solar gating solar, etc) (should also make it really easy to screw with the players when they tell the ginni to grant them 3 wishes: ginni:"of course what do you want?" player:"ultimate arcane power" ginni:"mmmkaay. Not that wish. Do you have a different one? I said 3 wishes, I never said which 3")

Much neater to just remove the component from all those spells that doesn't belong; they're all Conjuration (Calling) so there's no way they can compel the called creature to obey. That's an enchantment-effect and much easier to block to boot. The Charisma-checks and "must obey"-line need to go. Then they're much more interesting, and much less surefire broken.

Further, remove the limitation that only non-unique creatures can be called; remove the caster's control over what's called unless he knows the target's Truename. This way you can never be sure what you get; the target may be warded or something. Makes it more risky, as it should be.


2 Spells that change your shape or type do not stack, instead they are treated as a new casting on the base creature (so a human who is polymorphed is still considered human even if they are polymorphed as a dog, dragon, or what have you)

If this is what you want, just remove Polymorph-line's ability to change your Type. However, this doesn't address the fact that in combat-use, they give buffs far beyond what spells of such level should be capable of, and remove the need for your own physicals.


3 You always succeed when attempting to dispel your own spells

There are a billion other ways to fail the check, starting from having the party Cleric Dispel them instead. Much cleaner, IMHO, is just to limit the number of Explosive Runes that can exist in certain area. 6d6 explosions are nothing to be afraid of. It's the 600d6 that's the issue. Same could also be used to alleviate the issue with the various Symbol-spells. Magicks don't mix. Or maybe they just neutralize each other if cast too close; that'll make it interesting. It even makes sense; various similar magical charges in the same area should interact somehow (maybe even make Explosive Runes detonate when cast nearby another Explosive Runes). Maybe give Explosive Runes a small XP or GP cost while at it.


4 Polymorph spells etc. can not change your form into anything with higher ECL than your caster level

You should definitely keep ECL out of in-game effects. It causes all manners of problems, especially since monster CR and ECL are unrelated, and frequently subject to altering. There's already a HD-limit in place, but that doesn't really help at all, since the HD-limitations don't


5 Contact other plane spells: you must succeed on a (Secret) Cha check, or you get false information (DC depends on the information you are trying to obtain)

Feels pretty contrived. I think the easiest way to fix this is simply to change what the spell does; allow it to contact another plane. Nothing more. Remove the tables and such that tell you how likely the target lies or such; leave it to the target's discretion.

Return it to normal diplomatic checks with Sense Motives & al., just with a creature of deific power (and thus automaking pretty much all checks with you). Also, allow them to deny connection at their discretion. You don't even need to bring these limitations into play; their very existence means the spells are no longer abusable.


6 Simulacrum can not create more Simulacrum.

It still gives you friggin' CR 23 creatures under your command. First, remove any spellcasting the creature may have. Second, make it more expensive to create a Simulacrum. Third, limit all SLAs and Su-abilities so you don't end up with high-level SLAs from Simulacrums (they're at ½ HD so only give them SLAs and Su-abilities mimicking spells they could cast if they were casters at the level of their HD - yes, this also removes some "fair" spells, but whoppedoo; Simulacrums aren't supposed to be equivalent to real creatures).

Also, changing the "2x Your Caster Level in HD" to "Your Caster Level in HD" or "1.5x Your Caster Level in HD" would help a lot. And make it impossible for Miracle and Wish to replicate this spell in shorter time than the spell takes to cast.


And Shrink Item is incredibly easy to fix: Make the duration Instantaneous. Yes, that means shrunk items are shrunken indefinitely. The brokenness of the spell comes from the fact that you can end the magic when appropriate and do stuff with something many times larger than it should be. This merely keeps it to its original purpose; making stuff smaller.


Awaken is covered by not being able to change your type. Polymorph Any Object just needs a rewrite; that spell is cool, but a bit dumb. Level 9 spells need at least SOME limitations. E.g. 1 round/level Shapechange with a 1500gp material component (like it was in AD&D) and 1d3 round Time Stop is already notably more fair. And nesting Time Stops should obviously be impossible. Gate is already fixed if you just remove its ability to compel creatures to your service. Disjunction...well, aside from the headache of having to check the CL of all your equipment, it should just be an uncapped Dispel Magic rather than autodispelling everything. Astral Projection...there should be SOME penalty to dying in Astral Projection. Like a small XP cost or such, so that it's not entirely free (aside from the cost of casting the spell).


Oh yeah, The Giant's Polymorph Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/dC21fDHZ4tK8n5OjUm9.html) may be of interest to you. This is GiTP, after all. Oh, and I strongly endorse making Polymorphs just grant Enhancement-bonus to stat depending on the target's modifiers instead of just changing your stats. Life is much easier that way; less stackability and less likely to vastly outgrow a standard non-Polymorphed warrior-type's stats.

[Captainocaptain]

ok wow. Much better fixes than mine. and simpler. Thanks!

[Lycanthromancer]

Well, gate is still broken, as one of the abuses is that you pull in something that will cause whatever destruction you want, even if it's well beyond your ability to control, then teleport out. Hecatoncheires and atropals at level 17? Sure! Your target is dead; who cares if the creature you called escapes?

Unless you're Good, anyway, but what fun is that?

I remade this in my powers revision. My fix to both planar binding and gate is that you have to cast them on the creature you want to call, in person, and the creature is in no way obligated to actually do anything when you pull it in with a second casting of the spell (it gets a Will save the first time you cast, but not when you do the actual calling; instead, it gets 1 round to act, in case it wants to prepare in some fashion...or cast dimensional anchor on itself). Instead, you pull in allies, or creatures you've made deals with, or creatures you've dominated beforehand, or minions you've created on your own time.

There. Fixed.

[shadow_archmagi]

1 Creatures not on this plane by their own inclination can not bring other creatures to them, and are free to interpret commands given to them in any manor they see fit.

That is a pretty serious debuff.

"I suppose I *could* kill him, given that you just told me to. But I think I need to go to my manor and contemplate that for a bit."

[The Glyphstone]

That is a pretty serious debuff.

"I suppose I *could* kill him, given that you just told me to. But I think I need to go to my manor and contemplate that for a bit."

*casts Mage's Magnificent Mansion, and waits till the summon expires*

[Eldariel]

Well, gate is still broken, as one of the abuses is that you pull in something that will cause whatever destruction you want, even if it's well beyond your ability to control, then teleport out. Hecatoncheires and atropals at level 17? Sure! Your target is dead; who cares if the creature you called escapes?

I personally like the limitation of "HD = CL", which I suggested. Atropals and Hecatoncheireses are a fair game once you ramp up to CL 53 (though of course, there are some ways to go about that, but that's MUCH easier to moderate). If one still fears it (high-level Outsiders are no slouches still, though unlike to actually cause destruction for its own sake except in select few cases, and more likely to simply start hunting you down), give unwilling creatures Will-save even on Gate (willing creatures can of course step through).

[absolmorph]

That is a pretty serious debuff.

"I suppose I *could* kill him, given that you just told me to. But I think I need to go to my manor and contemplate that for a bit."
I'm sure we could figure out a way to abuse it, given time.

[Starbuck_II]

Sure you can have a versatile wizard in Core, but I have yet to hear of an unbeatable core build wizard.
Give me something completely abusable. I'm running a campaign in which 3 of the 5 players are power gamers, its a very high magic world, all of them have some form of arcane magic. One of them is a strait wizard, though. I want to see just how broken he can possibly get so I am prepared. Just give me your best shot.

Again, Batman is not abusive (unless he wants/needs to be). Batman is a teamplayer (Haste, etc)
These (Batman) are not the Wizard you are looking for (waves hand).

God is the one you want. God-Wizard is cheese.

[Greenish]

Again, Batman is not abusive (unless he wants/needs to be). Batman is a teamplayer (Haste, etc)
These (Batman) are not the Wizard you are looking for (waves hand).

God is the one you want. God-Wizard is cheese.No, wait, isn't god wizard a teamplayer? The original god wizard guide was so full of "YOUR PHENOMENAL POWER" style ego-boosting since it was a guide for playing a support character, I seem to recall.

[Edit]: Though as far as I've understood, neither god nor batman were intended to break the game, but to play nice with others.

[imperialspectre]

Yeah, God-Wizard isn't really cheesy either. Treantmonk was simply writing a wizard guide that was built on more precise role-slicing and recognizing that you can never really be prepared for "everything" in D&D - the best you can do is respec for what your divinations say to watch out for, and even that means the feats and class features you chose may be suboptimal for the day's work.

Basically, the Batman guide was written to establish general principles for smart wizarding, the Treantmonk guide was written to advocate specific suggestions for chosen tactical roles and character builds.

Anyway, Eldariel rocks and you should listen to him.

[shadow_archmagi]

Batman Wizard says "There is basically a spell for everything, and a lot of spells can do a lot of things. Take disintegrate. Suddenly, all physical barriers are irrelevant. Take fly. Suddenly, another whole class of obstacles are gone.

As the number of spells I have access to increases, the number of scenarios I don't have a solution to decreases. As such, there must be some point at which the number of situations I can't solve becomes trivially small. At that point, the game is about making sure that I have the right spell for the right situation"


This is why he's called the BATMAN wizard. Not because any individual thing he has is completely crazy, but because he has a solution for everything. Just like batman.

Batman is plagued by ice villain? Batman has an arctic outfit, and handheld flamethrower.

Batman is attacked by music villain? Batman has a handheld auto tune.

Batman is attacked by electric villain? He has a rubber suit.

Batman is attacked by bed-wetting villain? He has a rubber suit.

[Tinydwarfman]

Batman Wizard says "There is basically a spell for everything, and a lot of spells can do a lot of things. Take disintegrate. Suddenly, all physical barriers are irrelevant. Take fly. Suddenly, another whole class of obstacles are gone.

As the number of spells I have access to increases, the number of scenarios I don't have a solution to decreases. As such, there must be some point at which the number of situations I can't solve becomes trivially small. At that point, the game is about making sure that I have the right spell for the right situation"


This is why he's called the BATMAN wizard. Not because any individual thing he has is completely crazy, but because he has a solution for everything. Just like batman.

Batman is plagued by ice villain? Batman has an arctic outfit, and handheld flamethrower.

Batman is attacked by music villain? Batman has a handheld auto tune.

Batman is attacked by electric villain? He has a rubber suit.

Batman is attacked by bed-wetting villain? He has a rubber suit.

Also, he doesn't kill enemies, but takes them out the fight in some other way, like batman.

[Lycanthromancer]

Batman is attacked by electric villain? He has a rubber suit.

Batman is attacked by bed-wetting villain? He has a rubber suit.CWUDT. Oogah-Boogah

[Last Laugh]

Batman Wizard says "There is basically a spell for everything, and a lot of spells can do a lot of things. Take disintegrate. Suddenly, all physical barriers are irrelevant. Take fly. Suddenly, another whole class of obstacles are gone.

As the number of spells I have access to increases, the number of scenarios I don't have a solution to decreases. As such, there must be some point at which the number of situations I can't solve becomes trivially small. At that point, the game is about making sure that I have the right spell for the right situation"


This is why he's called the BATMAN wizard. Not because any individual thing he has is completely crazy, but because he has a solution for everything. Just like batman.

Batman is plagued by ice villain? Batman has an arctic outfit, and handheld flamethrower.

Batman is attacked by music villain? Batman has a handheld auto tune.

Batman is attacked by electric villain? He has a rubber suit.

Batman is attacked by bed-wetting villain? He has a rubber suit.

You are missing the infamous shark incident...
for those of you that don't know
"Quick Robin, hand me the Shark Repellent Bat Spray"

[The Glyphstone]

You are missing the infamous shark incident...
for those of you that don't know
"Quick Robin, hand me the Shark Repellent Bat Spray"

Robin wasn't involved, was he? I thought the Shark-Repellent-Bat-Spray came off his Utility Belt?

[Kris Strife]

Robin wasn't involved, was he? I thought the Shark-Repellent-Bat-Spray came off his Utility Belt?

Nope. Robin was flying the helicopter and handed him the spray can.

Also, I thought this thread would be something different.

[PhoenixRivers]

I'm working on some fixes right now to make things a little neater. Right now I've got:

3 You always succeed when attempting to dispel your own spells

This would be easier if you just couldn't discharge an Explosive runes that you cast.

This rule makes AoE dispels a nightmare on buffs.

[arguskos]

Also, I thought this thread would be something different.
Dude, at some point, all threads become about Batman. :smallcool:

[Lycanthromancer]

Dude, at some point, all threads become about Batman. :smallcool:And if they don't, they should.

[arguskos]

And if they don't, they should.
Amen. The proof of Batman in D&D. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4400.0)

[Kris Strife]

Dude, at some point, all threads become about Batman. :smallcool:

I thought this was going to about building a character using no core material and something from every single splat book.

And only one thing from each book.

[BobVosh]

I thought this was going to about building a character using no core material and something from every single splat book.

And only one thing from each book.

That sounds pretty awesome, actually.

Am I the only one who thought:
I'm the splatman!

Ski bi di bi di do bap do
Do bam do?