X-23 vs Batgirl vs River Tam

[Finn Solomon]

It's the battle of the psychologically traumatized killer ninja assassin babes! So alike you'd think they were all made by the same guy, but apparently the love of PTKNAB is so widespread, each major comics company has their standard bearer. First up, the stats.

http://galaxiesandcomics.com/marvel/images/X-23Transparent.jpg

X-23

Real name: Laura Kinney

Powers: Heightened senses, enhanced agility, enhanced regenerative abilities, two retractable adamantium claws in each hand and one in each foot (but not an adamantium skeleton). Programmed to enter a berserker rage upon smelling a particular trigger scent.

Brief history: X-23 was a failed attempt by a shadowy scientific/military cell to clone the legendary Wolverine. The genetic material they received was incomplete, so they had to make their clone a girl. She was brought up like an animal, trained only for killing. Her 'mother', project leader Dr. Kinney, decided to help her to escape, but was killed herself when X reacted to the trigger scent. Spending time on the streets as a teenage prostitute, X eventually wound up with the X-Men. She now serves on X-Force, the team that's unbelievably bloodier than the regular continuity X-Men.

Achievements: Is thought of as excessively violent, dangerous and out of control by Wolverine. Once took out a squad of soldiers minus an arm.

http://www.marveldc-universe.com/upload/encyclo/illust/batgirl/04.jpg

Batgirl

Real name: Cassandra Cain

Powers: Batman-level training in martial arts, reflexes and gymnastics. Intuitive reading of a person's body language and able to anticipate their movements. Extremely high resistance to pain.

Brief history: The daughter of David Cain and Lady Shiva, the best martial artist in the DCU, Cassandra was trained from birth to become the perfect assassin. Instead of learning speech, she learned body language. She killed her first man at the age of eight. Wracked with guilt, she eventually seeks to atone for her past by serving Batman and Oracle in their war against crime.

Achievements: Is depended upon as a crucial ally by Batman. Regularly played "two for flinching" with her father, except bullets were substituted for punches.

http://www.glogster.com/media/2/2/91/47/2914782.jpg

River Tam

Real name: Duh.

Powers: Empath-level precognitive and psychic abilities, able to sense people's thoughts. Genius-level intellect. Martial artist abilities activated upon using a trigger.

Brief history: Sent to an Alliance boarding school, River Tam was kidnapped and taken by the Blue Sun corporation and experimented upon to produce 'a living weapon', undergoing severe mental trauma in the process. Broken out by her brother, River eludes her captors on Captain Reynolds's ship Serenity, trying to stay one step ahead of the people who want to use her.

Achievements: Was not raped to death, had her flesh eaten and her skin sewn into clothing by a roomful of ravenous Reavers.

And yes, I believe very strongly that all three characters should be played by Summer Glau.

The contest? Why, nothing more than a knock-down drag out fight between the three ladies in a battle to the death!

X has her claws. Cass has whatever she can fit onto her utility belt (mostly batarangs). River has the Reaver axe and sword she so famously used at the end of Serenity. Venue is the streets of modern day New York City.

[Aerodynamik]

River wins.

If she had both her hands tied behind her back and was blindfolded...

She'd still win.

She's just that awesome.

[Serenity]

Cassandra Cain and River Tam are fairly evenly matched. Both excel at just not being wherever you throw your punch, because they know what you're trying to do to them almost before you do. River might have a slight edge, since hers is based off of psychic power, instead of reading body language, and is therefore arguably slightly faster in her reaction time. On the other hand, Cass is much more mentally stable, and might be able to get the drop on River when she was having a whimsical episode or a freak-out. Otherwise, they'd probably fight to a standstill.

X-23 is a bit of a wild card in all this, though...she probably wouldn't be able to land very many hits on River or Cass, but any blows landed with Adamantium claws would slice them to ribbons, and if X-23's regenerative abilities are anywhere near Wolverine's levels, the other two have virtually no way of keeping their mutant foe down and out.

[kpenguin]

Wait, are we going by the cool original version of Cassie or the version that got beaten by Tim Drake?:smalltongue:

Wait...


The contest? Why, nothing more than a knock-down drag out fight between the three ladies in a battle to the death!

Batgirl doesn't kill. That's kinda one of her things.

[Syka]

All we need to know is River is in the battle.

Game over.

River wins.



Invoking XKCD.

http://xkcd.com/311/

[Finn Solomon]

Wait, are we going by the cool original version of Cassie or the version that got beaten by Tim Drake?:smalltongue:

Wait...

Batgirl doesn't kill. That's kinda one of her things.

I love the original Cassie Cain, so that's the one in this scenario. If Batgirl doesn't kill, even in self-defence, then the odds against her just went way up.

[Finn Solomon]

Cassandra Cain and River Tam are fairly evenly matched. Both excel at just not being wherever you throw your punch, because they know what you're trying to do to them almost before you do. River might have a slight edge, since hers is based off of psychic power, instead of reading body language, and is therefore arguably slightly faster in her reaction time. On the other hand, Cass is much more mentally stable, and might be able to get the drop on River when she was having a whimsical episode or a freak-out. Otherwise, they'd probably fight to a standstill.

X-23 is a bit of a wild card in all this, though...she probably wouldn't be able to land very many hits on River or Cass, but any blows landed with Adamantium claws would slice them to ribbons, and if X-23's regenerative abilities are anywhere near Wolverine's levels, the other two have virtually no way of keeping their mutant foe down and out.

Good, logical assessment. To clarify X's healing abilities are actually stronger than Wolverine's as mind-boggling as that may sound - she doesn't have adamantium in her skeleton to interfere with her healing factor. However that is a weakness of sort, she's had limbs broken and even severed before and considering how smart her opponents are I'm sure they'll take that into account.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Going to toss this one to River. Batgirl may be really good at what she does, but River in a fight is...well...yeah. Batgirl may have more finesse than an army of Reavers, but if River can dodge all of those weapons and headshot three men with her eyes closed (which she has done before), I suspect that a speedy, agile foe won't give her THAT much trouble.

While X-23 poses more of a problem, I still have to hand it to River. She didn't even get a scratch fighting toe-to-toe with all those Reavers...one foe armed with weapons with a shorter reach (claws opposed to a sword) isn't going to bother her one bit. Sure, she might not be able to put X-23 down...but River is also a genius, even through her psychosis, and mutants like X-23 can be killed...it just takes creativity and planning. In a plain, featureless room, the fight goes to X-23. In the middle of New York, a city full of things that River, with her penchant for mind-games and acrobatics, can use to her advantage? River all the way.

[AmberVael]

River is definitely my favorite character of the three, but I couldn't really say she's the most powerful due to X-23's regeneration...

Except for the point that Djinn brings up. Not only is she insanely skilled in combat, but she's a genius. She can identify ships just by being inside a single room, learn entire dances perfectly by watching them for about half a minute. She has incredible intuition and knowledge.

There's that code she sent to Simon, too. Creating a code? Not so impressive. Creating a code while undergoing severe psychological trauma that isn't picked up by anyone but her brother and then also getting that letter to her family past government operatives (seriously, you think they would actually allow her to send letters if she were in that situation?) is pretty good.

Also? She can kill you with her brain.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

*Good Stuff*

Also bear in mind that it's entirely possible that River won't even have to attack. She all but shuts down Badger and Jubal Early within a few seconds of meeting them: her mental abilities combined with her intellect allow her to basically play off her opponent's emotions and literally sap their will to fight, or just tie them up in mental knots. With the wide variety of emotions, nightmares and thoughts she has to play with when facing Batgirl and X-23, River may not even have to raise a hand.

[kpenguin]

Yeah. Cassie is my favorite character out of the three, but I have to give it to River.

Unless X-23 starts pulling those "regenerate from a single cell" stunts her clone daddy did. Then I don't know how the hell River's going to go about killing X-23, though disabling is a possibility.

Cassie is probably the least likely to win this, given her lack of superhuman powers and, if we're going by original version and not crappy drugged-by-Deathstroke version, restriction from killing.

[Haven]

Batgirl is the only one who keeps ranged weapons, not to mention an array of other useful gadgets, on her at all times; I think that gives her the edge.

I'm also pretty sure she's faster than all of them. River may be psychic, but Cass can do crazy crap like outrun a batarang that she just threw.

Batgirl could definitely take X-23 though.

[Octopus Jack]

River wins...


she just does

[Saph]

Eh, River's never impressed me much. Half the time she's in a coma or nonfunctional and the one time she cuts loose she's fighting a bunch of crazies who are too nuts to use tactics or modern weapons.

In terms of skill, Cassandra's obviously way above the other two. The main problem she'd have would be that X-23 can't really die by anything short of being thrown into the sun (and given some of the crazy shenanigans Wolverine's pulled off, even that's not a guarantee). So Batgirl could put her down, but wouldn't have any way to finish her off.

So I'd say River gets killed off early, Cassandra and X-23 fight it out, X-23 goes down half a dozen times and keeps getting back up, and finally Cassandra retreats to link up with Batman to ask him for his Bat-Anti-Adamantine-Mutant-Compound that he just happens to have spent several years synthesising and now carries around on his utility belt (because that's the kind of thing he does).

[SlyGuyMcFly]

I think people are subestimating Batgirl. In the proposed scenario she has one two advantages over her enemies. Vertical mobility and range.

I do believe those would count for a good deal in a large, confusing, crowded metropolis like NY.

Also, while I'm pretty sure sneaking up on X-23 is not something you can normally do, you'd probably get the drop on River Tam if you caught her in the middle of a crowd. Sure she can read your mind, but can she read all the minds and focus on the one that matters? Batgirl wouldn't use this tactic due to the probability of collateral deaths, but X-23? She very well might.


My 2.67 cents on the matter.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

...you'd probably get the drop on River Tam if you caught her in the middle of a crowd. Sure she can read your mind, but can she read all the minds and focus on the one that matters?

She can, in fact. As evidenced in the beginning of the movie Serenity, and by the fact that she knows (albeit subconsciously) many of the government's secrets from being briefly exposed to the people thinking of such things...while undergoing intensive mental alteration at the same time.

[The Glyphstone]

Is it ever established how far her psychic reach extends? If it has a set limit, that limit could (theoretically) be shorter than the throwing reach of a Batarang. Since River's precognition appears to be entirely based on reading the minds of her opponents, an attack from outside that range could be a serious threat.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Is it ever established how far her psychic reach extends? If it has a set limit, that limit could (theoretically) be shorter than the throwing reach of a Batarang. Since River's precognition appears to be entirely based on reading the minds of her opponents, an attack from outside that range could be a serious threat.

It hasn't ever been established. However, if I had to guess, I'd put it at exceptional, as, at the beginning Serenity, she's able to detect the incoming Reavers before their ships are over the village that they are in, meaning that it's pretty much assured to have a longer range than a mere thrown object. Not 100% certain on that point though. This also demonstrates that she has a superhuman intuition, even if it's not true precognition at that range...getting the drop on her will be pretty difficult, if not completely impossible.

Also, are we talking pre-Miranda or post-Miranda River? The difference is important, as one is somewhat unpredictable (albeit incredibly deadly). The other (post-Miranda) is equally deadly by nature and ability, made more so because she's actually able to function normally again.

[paddyfool]

X-23's advantages: Least fragile (by far), most ruthless, best physical senses
Disadvantages: Least smart, least skilled, no precog

Cassie Cain's advantages: Most skilled, best ranged options, most city-focused
Disadvantages: Least ruthless

River Tam's advantages: Most smart, best precog
Disadvantages: Most fragile, possibly crazy depending on version (narrative assumes not)

--------------

So: River can evade X-23 and Cassie nigh-indefinitely, and track their movements. Cassie can only temporarily evade X-23 thanks to scent etc. Eventually, X-23 will force Cassie into a straight-up fight, and River will wait until at least one of them (Cassie, most likely), is worn down, then head in with the decapitating strikes. Post-decapitation, X-23 would of course need to be chopped up into itty-bitty-pieces and the bits deposited in molten steel a la T2. Cassie may not need decapitation, however, if River can force the submission.

[The Glyphstone]

It hasn't ever been established. However, if I had to guess, I'd put it at exceptional, as, at the beginning Serenity, she's able to detect the incoming Reavers before their ships are over the village that they are in, meaning that it's pretty much assured to have a longer range than a mere thrown object. Not 100% certain on that point though. This also demonstrates that she has a superhuman intuition, even if it's not true precognition at that range...getting the drop on her will be pretty difficult, if not completely impossible.
.

That far? Then yeah, Cassy's not sneaking up on River.

[Syka]

Not too mention River could tell when the Blue Hand Men were on her trail in...I wanna say Bushwhacked or The Train Job. Can't remember quite which one, but it's on the first disc.

[kpenguin]

Train Job. Two by two, hands of blue first appeared in Train Job.

[Teron]

Being a psychic in a large city, River should be able to find someone carrying a gun or hiding one in their home and take it in short order. That would give her a significant advantage; the other two may be comic book heroines used to dodging bullets, but if anyone can hit them, it's River. Misdirection, predicting where someone will shoot and dodging before they pulls the trigger, and other explanations for how they do it aren't worth much against her. Between her psychic powers and good-at-everything-everness I'm pretty sure she can put a bullet on an intercepting trajectory a split second before her opponents actually break cover.

[Haven]

That far? Then yeah, Cassy's not sneaking up on River.

I'm pretty sure that by the time she sensed them, the Reavers were already inside the village tearing stuff up. IIRC Jubal, for instance, was pretty much on top of them before River first sensed him.


Misdirection, predicting where someone will shoot and dodging before they pulls the trigger, and other explanations for how they do it aren't worth much against her.

Er, what about just being that fast? Which X-23 probably is and Cass usually is (being pretty much "Charles Atlas Superpower" incarnate). Though neither are too bothered by being shot--X-23 has the healing factor thing, and Cass is kind of inured to it. (Not in the head, obviously, but that's where the dodging comes in.)

[Finn Solomon]

River wins.

If she had both her hands tied behind her back and was blindfolded...

She'd still win.

She's just that awesome.

Ordinarily I am River's biggest fan. But recently I've been picking up a couple of X-Force trades, and borrowing my friend's No Man's Land. Now while the character concepts may not be the most original, I really like what the writers have done with both characters. Plus I have kind of a major thing for troubled but cute girls.


Also, are we talking pre-Miranda or post-Miranda River? The difference is important, as one is somewhat unpredictable (albeit incredibly deadly). The other (post-Miranda) is equally deadly by nature and ability, made more so because she's actually able to function normally again.

I specified post-Miranda, because I thought that Firefly River wouldn't stand a chance against her opponents. But you've manage to make a pretty strong case that not only pre-Miranda River could hold her own just by using her mental abilities, but might actually win. Very good shout about the whole Badger/Jubal Early thing, if River does decide to go that route she has endless material to exploit.


Being a psychic in a large city, River should be able to find someone carrying a gun or hiding one in their home and take it in short order. That would give her a significant advantage; the other two may be comic book heroines used to dodging bullets, but if anyone can hit them, it's River. Misdirection, predicting where someone will shoot and dodging before they pulls the trigger, and other explanations for how they do it aren't worth much against her. Between her psychic powers and good-at-everything-everness I'm pretty sure she can put a bullet on an intercepting trajectory a split second before her opponents actually break cover.

I agree that River might be able to hit them with a gun. But would even a gunshot make either of her opponents pause to blink? X would heal right up and as mentioned, Cass took bullets without reacting when she was a girl.

Then I got to thinking about Cassandra Cain played by Summer Glau in Nolan's Batverse. Or X played by Summer Glau in the X-Men movie franchise. I would buy twenty tickets to each movie.

[Haven]

Then I got to thinking about Cassandra Cain played by Summer Glau in Nolan's Batverse. Or X played by Summer Glau in the X-Men movie franchise. I would buy twenty tickets to each movie.

Man, as much as I dislike Race Lifts...that would be badass.

[Finn Solomon]

Man, as much as I dislike Race Lifts...that would be badass.

It so would! Summer does look half-Asian anyway, even if she's not.

[Keshay]

X-23 regenerates. Better than Wolverine.

Really, is there more discussion after this?

If so.... fanboi. Yeah I said it.

[kpenguin]

Then I got to thinking about Cassandra Cain played by Summer Glau in Nolan's Batverse. Or X played by Summer Glau in the X-Men movie franchise. I would buy twenty tickets to each movie.

That'd be awesome, but, uh, I sort of want to see Summer stop being type-casted as the "crazy cute waif girl"

[Haven]

X-23 regenerates. Better than Wolverine.

Really, is there more discussion after this?

If so.... fanboi. Yeah I said it.

Doesn't make you unbeatable. One scenario: Cass throws a flashbang (enhanced senses...not always an advantage), breaks her bones, keeps breaking them every few steps (or puts, say, a rock inside to keep them from healing properly) until she gets to a construction site (near at hand pretty much anywhere in New York), whereupon she covers X in cement until she can come up with a better solution.

[Soras Teva Gee]

River is still strictly vanilla human physically and her opponents have been through similar enough training regimes as makes no difference. For that matter they can be said to have completed more of said regimes. Now telepathy compensates some, but X-23 and Batgirl are from worlds where superpowers are effectively common. Batgirls abilities in particular are more or less a mundane version of precognition for combat purposes. And well X-23 can be kicked in the head three seconds in and come back for more later, there is currently no confirmed (as in actually done) way to kill her or Logan even discounting the latter's BS with Nitro. Both superheroes are better armed too and their suits are protective. And both would have a basis for resisting any psychic muckery anyways.

So this come down to X-23 and Batgirl as far as I'm concerned. Here I have a lot of trouble deciding. Can Cassie dish enough of an assault to knock Laura unconscious? Or manage to catch some kind of sleeper hold to knock X-23 out from lack of oxygen. The latter seems hard given that it would entail restraining someone stronger then you and you have to restrain all four limbs well enough to avoid being stabbed. For the former option, I don't think its happened since X-23 has been introduced. A third option like some mild gas or a taser though might work. I'm going to tentatively rule this for Batgirl.

[comicshorse]

Posted by Keshay

X-23 regenerates. Better than Wolverine.


Well yes but on the other hand Batgirl is a strategist who has been trained by Batman
X-23 on the other hand is as dumb as a bag of hammers ( seriously this is the girl who while on the run from the secret agency that created her figured it would be a good idea to hang out with her only living relative cause they'd never think to look for her there. ) That's going to help level the playing fields

[longbow]

Eh, River's never impressed me much. Half the time she's in a coma or nonfunctional and the one time she cuts loose she's fighting a bunch of crazies who are too nuts to use tactics or modern weapons.

I'll assume you're speaking of the reavers there. That was when she wasn't actually triggered; earlier in the movie, she was triggered in a restaurant/bar/entertainment place and she owned an entire room of ordinary people (many of whom had guns or other weapons) including Jayne and would have probably shot Mal if Simon hadn't said the sleep command.


Train Job. Two by two, hands of blue first appeared in Train Job.

I don't remember that one and my DVD's aren't working at the moment, but I thought they were first introduced in Ariel

[kpenguin]

I don't remember that one and my DVD's aren't working at the moment, but I thought they were first introduced in Ariel

You see them at the end of the episode on Train Job. You first see them actually do something in Ariel.

[longbow]

does the riddle actually come up then or do you just see them/their hands?

edit: nevermind, my DVD player is working now

[trmptfnfr]

Doesn't make you unbeatable. One scenario: Cass throws a flashbang (enhanced senses...not always an advantage), breaks her bones, keeps breaking them every few steps (or puts, say, a rock inside to keep them from healing properly) until she gets to a construction site (near at hand pretty much anywhere in New York), whereupon she covers X in cement until she can come up with a better solution.

You seem to assume x-23 will just be standing still while that is done to her, do you really think she will stop trying to win the fight when her bone snaps?
She'll just continue flailing until the bone heals.

A flashbang might give you a huge advantage for a couple of seconds, but it won't leave her immobile.

IMO the best way to defeat X-23 would be to incapacitate her in some way other than injury, (Such as cement, chains, dropping something heavy on her.) and then go from there.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I'll assume you're speaking of the reavers there. That was when she wasn't actually triggered; earlier in the movie, she was triggered in a restaurant/bar/entertainment place and she owned an entire room of ordinary people (many of whom had guns or other weapons) including Jayne and would have probably shot Mal if Simon hadn't said the sleep command.

It's also worth noting that both times she was up against 15+ enemies at once, and wasn't even scratched. The one or two men attempting to grapple her ended up in locks themselves, without the typical exchange of blows that happens in such a situation. As a side note, the one man who DOES successfully grab her is used as a weapon, and it's pretty clear that River is in complete control of the situation.

I'd also pin her ability to do a double flip down a staircase and immediately spring up again in perfect fighting form as a testament to the fact that River is decidedly superhuman in her athletic ability. I don't think we can give her opponents much, if any, edge in this category.

Basically, she never makes a mistake, or lets an attack slide...even those coming from behind her or outside her line of vision. She remains untouched even when fighting dozens of Reavers in an enclosed area...Reavers shows to use both melee and projectile weapons, and shown to be exceptionally aggressive and relentless. In neither case is she tired, nor does she even break a sweat. That sort of combat perfection is hard to beat. Combine that with her ability to target her opponent's mental weaknesses with exceptional accuracy and effectiveness and...well...

[longbow]

Though I love River, I simply can't give her this one, mainly because the power scale differences between the different universes. X and batgirl both come from incredibly powerful universes where mutants with superpowers or other forms of superheroes are fairly commonplace (at least we hear about them a lot) whereas in Firefly, it's all ordinary people, so while hanging to a light on the ceiling to avoid being seen works in Firefly, tricks like that just won't hold up against people with superhuman powers.


As a side note, the one man who DOES successfully grab her is used as a weapon

Jayne also successfully grabs her in a bear hug from behind, but she just hits him in the crotch, escapes, and kicks him away


In neither case is she tired, nor does she even break a sweat. That sort of combat perfection is hard to beat. Combine that with her ability to target her opponent's mental weaknesses with exceptional accuracy and effectiveness and...well...

She is visibly sweating after the fight with the reavers, but she is still ready to fight a squad of elite Alliance soldiers

[Zen Monkey]

Aside from the fact that she is a perfect shot, with her eyes closed, River can kill you with her brain. Is there a precedent for Wolverine regenerating from a psychic death? It's not clear what sort of physical trauma that involves, if any.

[comicshorse]

Wolverine has regulalrly beat the crap out of death. ( I'm serious, unfortunately) So I don't think psychic is going to bother him

[Finn Solomon]

Aside from the fact that she is a perfect shot, with her eyes closed, River can kill you with her brain. Is there a precedent for Wolverine regenerating from a psychic death? It's not clear what sort of physical trauma that involves, if any.

Xavier has brought him down a couple of times. IIRC Wolverine can only die if his head is separated from his body. Since he has an adamantium neck, that can't happen. However X doesn't have such protection. It's possible either Cassie or River could take her out by decapitation.

[Meshakhad]

Their combat skills are similar, but River also has telepathy and a genius-level intellect (see: Objects in Space). She'll outsmart her opponents somehow.

[longbow]

If given enough time, yes, but I just don't see her having time to come up with something while the other two are busy killing her/each other

[Mewtarthio]

Aside from the fact that she is a perfect shot, with her eyes closed, River can kill you with her brain. Is there a precedent for Wolverine regenerating from a psychic death? It's not clear what sort of physical trauma that involves, if any.

Bear in mind, River could have just been taking advantage of Jayne's nigh-superstitious fear of her when she made that comment. There's not any evidence in the series that she really can launch a telepathic attack like that.

[Saph]

It's also worth noting that both times she was up against 15+ enemies at once, and wasn't even scratched. The one or two men attempting to grapple her ended up in locks themselves, without the typical exchange of blows that happens in such a situation. As a side note, the one man who DOES successfully grab her is used as a weapon, and it's pretty clear that River is in complete control of the situation.

X-23 and Batgirl come from universes where this kind of capability is considered the minimum for a superhero. River looks impressive in the Firefly-verse because she's got superpowers and she's fighting enemies without superpowers. For X-23 and Batgirl, fighting and beating superpowered enemies is routine.

In the Marvel and DC-verses you can't kick a can without pegging a superhero/supervillain with inhuman mental and/or physical abilities. It's just a different power scale.

[Revlid]

Strength
River: Athletic - greater than her frame suggests, but not peak-human.
Batgirl: High-Athletic - much greater than her frame suggests. Peak-human for her body-type.
X-23: Peak human - superhuman for her frame. It's established that healing factors allow for greater strength, not only by more efficiently repairing damaged muscle (on-the-spot conditioning, basically), but also by bypassing the body's usual mental limits.
X-23 Wins.

Agility
River: Acrobatic - peak human. Performs feats that would be considered near-superhuman.
Batgirl: Acrobatic - peak human. Performs feats that would be considered near-superhuman. Does so on a regular basis.
X-23: Acrobatic - near-peak human. Less acrobatic training with regards to balance, etc, but still highly competent. Greater strength and damage-resistance allows for feats impossible for the other two.
Draw between River and Batgirl.

Toughness
River: Average-to-below-average - unenhanced teenage girl. Presumed impressive pain-resistance, given nature of "treatments", but mercurial mental-state makes this uncertain. Good stamina.
Batgirl: Relatively tough - experienced fighter. Impressive pain-resistance, taking multiple bullets without flinching. High stamina.
X-23: Superhuman. Capable of shrugging off whole submachine-gun clips. Superhuman pain resistance. Too much pain causes "berserker rage" - however, all depictions of this place it as being more deadly than normal state. Superhuman stamina.
X-23 Wins by a staggering margin.

Senses
River: Normal human. Also possesses telepathy and mild precognitive ability. Level of control is unknown, though presumed variable. Able to use in a combat setting.
Batgirl: Normal human. Also possesses a superhuman grasp of body-language, to the point of being able to react to attacks before they happen. This is extensive enough to place her as a top martial artist in the relatively high-powered DCU.
X-23: Superhuman. Normal sight and touch, enhanced hearing, incredibly enhanced sense of smell (and presumably taste). Can pick out single distinct humans in a city, track better than a trained dog, etc.
Three-way draw. All have their advantages.

Training
River: Bizarre mixture of gun-fu and martial arts, likely with a large amount of improvisation. Approximated as expert-level combatant.
Batgirl: Literally superhuman. On a par with Batman, the joint-most-skilled martial artist in the entire DCU. Very experienced.
X-23: Assassin and military training. Skilled, with more practical experience in fighting than River and more practical experience in killing than either of her opponents.
Batgirl Wins, with X-23 and River tying due to the difficulty of discerning River's level of skill.

Resistance (how can they mess with each other's tricks?)
River: Psychological warfare is likely futile against Batgirl, given her mentor(s). Could be effective against X-23, unless she is berserkering, at which point it will be ignored. Genius-level intellect in unfamiliar city will likely be matched by Batgirl's greater experience in such settings, but could be quite effective against X-23.
Batgirl: Unlikely that a protege of Batman will be susceptible to the relatively low-level telepathy of River ("Frère Jacques"), and if blocking is unfeasible, thinking one way and moving another is certainly not beyond Batgirl's capabilities. Utility belt can play havoc with X-23's enhanced senses (provided she works out that she has them), and ability to manipulate an urban environment could also be effective.
X-23: As an X-Man, likely has training against low-level telepaths. If bypassed, the eventual and inevitable berserkering will likely render River unable to read her mind. Batgirl's ability to read body language is unavoidable, but X-23's unexpected strength and durability, as well as hidden weapons in the form of claws, make it possible to surprise her early on. Unknown what effect berserkering will have, likely slight imbalance followed by adaptation.
Most of them can mess up each other in some way.

Verdict
Despite her being very cool, I'm going to have to eliminate River fairly early on. Batgirl is essentially her, but vastly more experience, better conditioning, better and more training, and a less-powerful-but-more-reliable superpower. X-23 is basically immune to anything she can do, and will turn her into hamburger if she so much as touches her (which if Jayne can do, she certainly can).
I'd like to emphasise to all the Firefly fans that this isn't a bad reflection on her, it's just that she's a character from a low-powered setting facing two characters from high-powered settings. It's a close-run thing, given she's quite powerful for her setting and they're relatively low on their universes' scales, but she's still quite out of her depth.

Between Batgirl and X-23... Honestly, it could go either way. In a straight-up fight, it's X-23, because eventually Batgirl's going to get tired, or not adapt to the healing quick enough, or not realise just how sharp those claws are (adamantium blades are essentially lightsabers, with the way they cut). She'll make a mistake, and X-23 will kill her. In an environmental battle, Batgirl wins, because eventuall X-23's senses and training aren't going to be enough and she'll get hit by a falling dumpster or a driven truck or a collapsing building site... The problem is that nothing short of permanent decapitation or actual incineration is going to keep her down, and I can't see Batgirl being willing to go that far.
I guess I'm going to go for a draw, because it really is a coinflip/writer's decision/title-of-the-book thing.

Ultimately, of course, this is unnecessary. What should happen is they all swap places. Emma Frost ends up tutoring River, Batman has a migraine trying to get X-23 to understand "Thou Shalt Not Kill", and Mal... well, Mal probably gets tied up and a bat-symbol painted on his chest for being a thief.

[Selrahc]

Remember, X-23 is supposed to have superhumanly fast reflexes, like Wolverine. Not anything like Spiderman but enough that even with peak human reflexes and advanced warning it would still be hard for the others to keep up with her.

[chaosgirl]

I find it odd that people are discounting the fact that X-23 is also trained as a waitress and prostitute.

So worse comes to worse, she can hold down a day job.

[Cleverdan22]

In all likeliness, it seems that X-23 would win, realistically, what with the regeneration and reflexes. However, I'd be pulling for River, because, come on. It's River.

[chiasaur11]

In all likeliness, it seems that X-23 would win, realistically, what with the regeneration and reflexes. However, I'd be pulling for River, because, come on. It's River.

Also, importantly, it's not X-23.

Who, as much as I hate to admit it, would probably win. You got two combatants with no way to finish off the third in a fight to the death. Wolverine's healing factor usually makes any combatant without, at minimum, high explosives, a dead being walking.

Not anywhere near a fair fight.

[Deca]

River's actual fighting abilities aren't too special when compared to Marvel and DC. Clearing out a whole room of enemies is pretty ordinary by their standards.

And low-level psychs are two-a-penny in comics. There are strategies around them.

[Finn Solomon]

Ultimately, of course, this is unnecessary. What should happen is they all swap places. Emma Frost ends up tutoring River, Batman has a migraine trying to get X-23 to understand "Thou Shalt Not Kill", and Mal... well, Mal probably gets tied up and a bat-symbol painted on his chest for being a thief.

I would pay money to read that. Several times.

[Vaynor]

I don't think River is that much more agile than X-23, her fighting may seem amazing in a non-superhero context but I think both X-23 and Batgirl would beat her in a fight; the only thing we'd have to worry about is her psychic abilities. I think that overall X-23 would win, simply because of the regeneration and pure physical power (those blades are nasty). She may not have as much training but I think she makes up for that by not dying easily whatsoever. Batgirl may be able to beat her temporarily but even Batgirl has to sleep sometimes, and X-23 can track pretty well.

[lisiecki]

Their combat skills are similar, but River also has telepathy and a genius-level intellect (see: Objects in Space). She'll outsmart her opponents somehow.

X-23 Also has genius-level intellect (see: X-23: Innocence Lost).
Well not genius-level, she only "Tests off the charts for Intelligence and comprehension" in the Marvel world

Also for those who haven't read comics with X-23 in them, while she CAN go nuts and gut people like James does, its showed that her training and first dozen missions involve her getting close to targets in urban situations.

River COULD read her mind, but if i were River, I wouldn't to go near that memory of Laura beating a 4 year old to death with a nightstick

[chiasaur11]

X-23 Also has genius-level intellect (see: X-23: Innocence Lost).
Well not genius-level, she only "Tests off the charts for Intelligence and comprehension" in the Marvel world

Also for those who haven't read comics with X-23 in them, while she CAN go nuts and gut people like James does, its showed that her training and first dozen missions involve her getting close to targets in urban situations.

River COULD read her mind, but if i were River, I wouldn't to go near that memory of Laura beating a 4 year old to death with a nightstick

Wow.

I thought I couldn't like the character less. And now? I'm proven wrong.

[lisiecki]

Wow.

I thought I couldn't like the character less. And now? I'm proven wrong.

She was actually a pretty interesting character for a year or two in "New X-Men" when her storylines were about her trying to learn what it is to be a human, and not a weapon that was locked in a cage.

Then they went and dumped her on X-Force...

[chiasaur11]

Oh, and before I forget:

River's well and truly up a creek, yeah, but using telepathy on X-23 won't be an issue due to "Trauma".

I mean, there might be training from Professor X protecting the mutant, but any telepath who has looked into Reaver brains probably won't get any new issues from one child getting beaten to death.

[Vaynor]

She was actually a pretty interesting character for a year or two in "New X-Men" when her storylines were about her trying to learn what it is to be a human, and not a weapon that was locked in a cage.

Then they went and dumped her on X-Force...

Yeah I liked her when she first appeared in New X-Men, it was interesting seeing her try to adapt to a normal life.

[Mewtarthio]

X-23 Also has genius-level intellect (see: X-23: Innocence Lost).
Well not genius-level, she only "Tests off the charts for Intelligence and comprehension" in the Marvel world

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the charts in the Marvel world are intentionally calibrated with anemic, disease-ridden infants so as to make everyone else sound more impressive. What? Don't you dare tell me that the Weapon X guys wouldn't keep a supply of anemic, disease-ridden infants on hand!

[chiasaur11]

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the charts in the Marvel world are intentionally calibrated with anemic, disease-ridden infants so as to make everyone else sound more impressive. What? Don't you dare tell me that the Weapon X guys wouldn't keep a supply of anemic, disease-ridden infants on hand!

True.

I mean, this is the world where Norman Osborn is trusted with a position of governmental power.

Tying ones own shoelaces puts one fairly high on the scales.

[lisiecki]

Oh, and before I forget:
River's well and truly up a creek, yeah, but using telepathy on X-23 won't be an issue due to "Trauma".
I mean, there might be training from Professor X protecting the mutant, but any telepath who has looked into Reaver brains probably won't get any new issues from one child getting beaten to death.

True True. But from what I've seen of Firefly, and I could be missing something, is that Rivers use of mind-reading on the bounty hunter was the read his mind, and then use that knowledge of his past to unsettle him.

Laura, on the other hand is at peace with most of the events of her life having worked through them with Xavier, Wolverine and Capt. America.
I've only seen firefly through once, but from the context of the "I can kill you with my mind" statement is River screwing with Jayn.


Yeah I liked her when she first appeared in New X-Men, it was interesting seeing her try to adapt to a normal life.

The first two X-23 mini-series set up a good plot line of "This is what happens when you clone wolverine, and start teaching him to kill on the day he was born" and to set up the storyline in New X-men where she trys to learn what a normal life is like.

Its really a shame that she got put on X-Force where shes reduced to "Team member who kills people #7".

Of corse my problem with that book is that I don't believe that any of the characters on that team, would be ok with Laura being on it.

[Vaynor]

Tying ones own shoelaces puts one fairly high on the scales.

Hey! That's like, really hard.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the charts in the Marvel world are intentionally calibrated with anemic, disease-ridden infants so as to make everyone else sound more impressive. What? Don't you dare tell me that the Weapon X guys wouldn't keep a supply of anemic, disease-ridden infants on hand!

Hey let's be honest here. At least 75% of fiction calibrates "genius" as being mildly intelligent with a side helping of clever. Its the most meaningless of meaningless informed abilities. Hell even in our world raw intelligence doesn't amount to a damn thing, and any standard to measure it is full of holes.

[Finn Solomon]

The first two X-23 mini-series set up a good plot line of "This is what happens when you clone wolverine, and start teaching him to kill on the day he was born" and to set up the storyline in New X-men where she trys to learn what a normal life is like.

Its really a shame that she got put on X-Force where shes reduced to "Team member who kills people #7".

Ooh, could I have the titles of the miniseries you referred to please? I would love to read more about Laura, but X-Force trades are the only ones I could find with her in it. I'd much rather read quiet, character driven stories than ones in which Laura spills enough blood to fill up an entire country's reserves.

[olelia]

Xavier has brought him down a couple of times. IIRC Wolverine can only die if his head is separated from his body. Since he has an adamantium neck, that can't happen. However X doesn't have such protection. It's possible either Cassie or River could take her out by decapitation.

Well actually if you've seen Wolverine Origins...

SPOILER ALERT!!!

At the end of the movie you see deadpool's hand appear out of the rubble even after getting decapitated by Wolverine

[lisiecki]

Ooh, could I have the titles of the miniseries you referred to please? I would love to read more about Laura, but X-Force trades are the only ones I could find with her in it. I'd much rather read quiet, character driven stories than ones in which Laura spills enough blood to fill up an entire country's reserves.

Not a worry at all. the Minis are X-23: Innocence Lost and X-23: Target X. Lauras time in the field gutting people is limited in each. The first mini is narrated by her "mother", the second is a series of flashbacks while shes being interviewed by Matt Murdock and Cap.

She's also in New X-Men #20-45, where she starts to humanize as a remember of the team. These issues also do a fairly good job of showing what its like for a young woman who was genetically built, and then trained to kill would do with "normal" kids.

Shes also in NYX but if that's cannon depends on the person your talking to. IMO its not, as Laura's timeline is pretty packed, and there's nowhere that the time she would have been in that book would have come from

[FoE]

Couldn't we just resolve this battle with all three of them making out?

That's a bit of sparring I wouldn't mind watching.

[The Glyphstone]

Couldn't we just resolve this battle with all three of them making out?

That's a bit of sparring I wouldn't mind watching.

River and X-23, maybe, but everyone knows that Batgirl prefers to watch (http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=384:batgirl-likes-to-watch&catid=32:seduction-index&Itemid=36).

[lisiecki]

That's a bit of sparring I wouldn't mind watching.

You don't mind watching a mentally disabled grown woman act out of character with a sociopath 14 year old?

To each there own

[longbow]

Overall, as long as Summer Glau plays all three, I'd watch the fight

[The Extinguisher]

Not a worry at all. the Minis are X-23: Innocence Lost and X-23: Target X. Lauras time in the field gutting people is limited in each. The first mini is narrated by her "mother", the second is a series of flashbacks while shes being interviewed by Matt Murdock and Cap.

She's also in New X-Men #20-45, where she starts to humanize as a remember of the team. These issues also do a fairly good job of showing what its like for a young woman who was genetically built, and then trained to kill would do with "normal" kids.

Shes also in NYX but if that's cannon depends on the person your talking to. IMO its not, as Laura's timeline is pretty packed, and there's nowhere that the time she would have been in that book would have come from

Actually, I thought NYX takes place between Innocence Lost and Target X, but I could be wrong.

[trmptfnfr]

You don't mind watching a mentally disabled grown woman act out of character with a sociopath 14 year old?

To each there own

... Who's the 14 year old?

[Erts]

... Who's the 14 year old?

Batgirl. I'm not sure about her current age, but I know she was around that age at some point.

[The Glyphstone]

Batgirl. I'm not sure about her current age, but I know she was around that age at some point.

She wasn't Batgirl then. If her biography on the DC Wiki is any indication, she didn't even enter Gotham until she was 17...

I had assumed you meant River when you said '14 year old'.

[lisiecki]

... Who's the 14 year old?

X-23 was 11 "three years ago" in comic time


Actually, I thought NYX takes place between Innocence Lost and Target X, but I could be wrong.

Right after Innocence Lost laura goes to live with her family in San Fransisco.
After her family is "killed" she goes to the Xavier school, where shes captured by shield.

After her interrogation by Cap and DareDevil they let her go, and tell her to go to the Xavier school so she can learn to be a peoples.

[The Extinguisher]

Right after Innocence Lost laura goes to live with her family in San Fransisco.
After her family is "killed" she goes to the Xavier school, where shes captured by shield.

After her interrogation by Cap and DareDevil they let her go, and tell her to go to the Xavier school so she can learn to be a peoples.

Well that sucks.

I really liked NYX.

[lisiecki]

Well that sucks.

I really liked NYX.

In all fairness, threse nothing to say that she doesn't spend the 6 months or whatever there after target x.


Well that's just the way I see it, the cast of NYX is in an X-23 one shot that came out this month.

I just don't like it for Laura, the whole cutter prostitute thing never really fit right with me.

The issue with Laura is that she first shows up in NYX THEN they did her back story, and all of her appearances after then take place more or less right after one another. They didn't leave enough time for NYX. The important part is if you like it, if you do, it counts for you