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PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-06, 08:21 PM
The Tome of Battle Un-Flavoring Project
Or, a Project to End ToB Debates Once and for All

Why an "Un-Flavoring Project"?
So, as most of the forum regulars around here have probably noticed, we tend to get Tome of Battle debate threads in a fairly regular cycle. One of the major complaints raised by anti-ToB folks in those threads is "it doesn't feel right/it feels too [anime|wuxia|something Oriental-sounding]/etc." to which pro-ToB folks respond "Maneuvers are essentially feats by another name, just refluff them and everything's fine!"

Whether you fall on one side or the other of the debate, the fact remains that (A) the fluff is a major barrier to adoption of ToB for some groups, and (B) even when reflavored, the per-encounter refresh mechanics are too far from feats for their liking. I propose, therefore, that we in the Playground de-flavor ToB, translating ToB maneuvers to feats, skill tricks, and other preexisting mechanics with no discipline fluff attached so that the next time a ToB thread comes up with someone complaining about flavor or mechanics, we can simply point them to this thread and say "Here, all the re-fluffing and re-crunching have been done for you; enjoy."

On Converting Maneuvers
[Tactical] and [Style] feats are probably going to be a big part of this conversion. Let's face it, published examples of those two kinds of feats generally suck, like the vast majority of martial feats, but the concept is sound; grouping similar Stone Dragon or Diamond Mind maneuvers under a tactical feat header and making the situational trigger something simple to achieve, or turning the Tiger Claw TWF maneuvers into a bunch of weapon style feats for any two weapons, would fit the maneuvers into a preexisting mold without too much difficulty.

Skill tricks are another good option for conversion; since they have the 1/encounter limitation built in, anything that might not otherwise make sense as a 1/combat technique (like Blistering Flourish's sun-in-the-eyes trick) works well as a skill trick, given the right prerequisites.

Translating the more supernatural aspects of Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and Devoted Spirit into mundane feats can be difficult conceptually, as can explaining Diamond Mind's "replace X with Concentration" and Stone Dragon's "ignore DR and hardness with any weapon." For this reason, since the ToB classes were meant to line up with core melee classes conceptually anyway, I'd propose linking together some disciplines' feats with other systems or classes to make them more palatable:
Desert Wind: Given that monks are accepted just fine, integrating the supernatural DW maneuvers with the Fiery Fist/Ki Blast line of feats in PHB2 gives us an existing basis for martial characters throwing energy around.
Diamond Mind--Using the psionic focus mechanic to trigger these maneuvers or requiring use of them while focused would provide a good basis for the prevalence of Concentration; dipping psionic feats like Deep Impact seems to be common enough that it wouldn't be objectionable, and "mind over matter" is always a good excuse for using mental stats/skills for physical stuff.
Devoted Spirit--Since the crusader is essentially a paladin or War cleric, requiring Smite [Alignment] and/or expenditure of turn/rebuke attempts would justify the supernatural DS maneuvers.
Shadow Hand--Requiring ghost step (or an advanced version thereof) or ki pool for these maneuvers would not only make the ninja a bit more powerful, but fit right in with the "supernatural sneak" theme, just like DW fits in nicely with the monk.
Stone Dragon--Most of these maneuvers are perfectly fine, but for the more "out there" ones and the ones that ignore DR and hardness, requiring rage for them would work, since the "Hulk smash!" barbarian theme has already been reinforced with Destructive Rage and similar feats.
Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Tiger Claw, White Raven--These don't really need to be justified through links to any other class or system.

On the Subject of Balance
Anyone objecting to ToB primarily on balance grounds rather than for reasons of "feel" aren't the primary target of this project, so there's no need to tone down the maneuvers mechanically. Just because we're making the maneuvers feats doesn't mean we're making them suck like all the others. Put in just enough prerequisites and/or usage restrictions to link the feats together thematically and to ensure that you can't get them earlier than a martial adept couldn't get the corresponding maneuver, but no more than that--for instance, the Fiery Fist feat has as one of its prereqs BAB +8 (which is waaay too high level for the effect, if you ask me) but can be taken by monks as early as 2nd level, so any Desert Wind feats in the Fiery Fist line can ignore BAB prereqs just fine.

Obviously, converting material to this new format will require some changes in the maneuvers' effects, and the prerequisites might make it available at different levels than the original maneuvers. Thus, one of the biggest areas of assistance needed is for some people to go through and determine whether (A) the conversions are faithful to the original and (B) the conversions are roughly balanced with the original.

On Existing Material
If there's an existing way to achieve a particular maneuver's result, one of two things can be done. Either we say "Eh, close enough" and just point to that as an equivalent for completeness's sake (see: Burning Brand vs. Fiery Fist) or we come up with a way to get the other feature more easily and/or rewrite the original feat with the benefit of hindsight (see: Mithral Tornado vs. Whirlwind Attack or Desert Tempest vs. Paimon's Dance). Remember, the target audience of this project is those who are comfortable with existing mechanics, and we want to cater to that as much as possible.

Contribution
I'm relying on you folks to help me get this done; I'm going to try to contribute material as I can, but I can't do the whole conversion myself. Since the hardest part is going to be figuring where to fit maneuvers into the feat/skill trick system and how to flavor them, even posting basic suggestions along those lines or coming up with feat trees and prerequisites would be greatly appreciated.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-06, 08:23 PM
Maneuver Conversions by Discipline

Note: If a feat incorporates/replaces maneuvers from multiple disciplines, it will be cross-listed under all of the disciplines for ease of reference.

Desert Wind (Incomplete)
SUN IN THE EYES [MANIPULATION]
With a quick twist of your weapon, you direct reflected light into your opponents' eyes, blinding them temporarily.
Prerequisite: Sleight of Hand 5 ranks
Benefit: As a standard action, make a Sleight of Hand check against a DC of your choice. If you succeed, all other creatures within 30 feet of you are dazzled for (5 + DC/5) rounds.
Special: You must be wielding a metallic weapon to use this skill trick, and it may not be used in conditions of shadowy or darker illumination.
Replaces: Blistering Flourish

KI PROJECTION [TACTICAL]
You shape your ki into a sheath of fire over your weapons, allowing you to harm your opponents in new ways
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Wis 15, Fiery Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, base attack bonus +8
Benefit: The Ki Projection feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers. To use all of them, you must expend a daily use of your Stunning Fist feat as a swift action to envelop your unarmed strikes and any special monk weapons you wield in fire until the start of your next turn.
Tongues of Flame: When you activate this function, fire flows down past the end of your limb or weapon. Your reach increases by 5 feet and any damage dealt by your attacks becomes fire damage. You still gain all the normal benefits from a high Strength score, feats, and other effects that increase your melee damage.
Lingering Flames: When you activate this function, the flames along your limb or weapon grow in intensity. Your attacks with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons deal extra fire damage equal to 3d6 plus your character level.
Leaping Flames: When you activate this function, a flickering flame leaps off the tip of your limb or weapon and lands near your opponent. Choose a square within 30 feet; while it lasts, you and your allies may flank with this flame as if it were a creature, as your enemies are distracted by its presence.
Special: A fighter can select Ki Projection as one of his fighter bonus feats. A monk with the Stunning Fist feat may ignore the base attack bonus prerequisite of Ki Projection.
Replaces: Burning Brand, Inferno Blade, Distracting Ember

FIERY KI BLAST [GENERAL]
You can empower your Ki Blasts with fire to make them more potent
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Wis 13, Fiery Fist, Ki Blast
Benefit: When you use your Ki Blast feat against a creature within 30 feet, you can choose to deal 6d6 fire damage at the cost of one Stunning Fist use instead of 3d6 + Wis untyped damage at the cost of two Stunning Fist uses. If you do spend two daily uses of Stunning Fist, you may instead deal this fire damage in a 30-foot cone or 12 contiguous 5-foot spaces.
Special: A fighter can select Ki Projection as one of his fighter bonus feats. A monk with the Stunning Fist feat may ignore the base attack bonus prerequisite of Fiery Ki Blast.
Replaces: Fan the Flames, Dragon's Flame, Fire Snake

FLAMING SERPENT STYLE [TACTICAL]
You follow a fighting style that mimics the salamander's sinuous yet powerful motions; using your ki, you are able to mimic his flames as well.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Wis 15, Fiery Fist, Ki Blast, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, base attack bonus +10
Benefit: The Flaming Serpent Style feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers.
Serpent's Lunge: When you charge, you may spend a single daily use of your Stunning Fist feat. If you do so, you fly at perfect maneuverability during the charge instead of moving along the ground and you deal an extra 5d6 damage to the target of your charge.
Serpent's Tail: When you charge, you may spend a single daily use of your Stunning Fist feat. If you do so, you do not need to charge in a straight line and you ignore difficult terrain during your charge. In addition, for 1 round after you charge, the spaces through which you charged deal 5d6 fire damage to any creatures occupying or moving through them, and spaces adjacent to those through which you charged deal 3d6 fire damage.
Serpent's Coils: When you take a double move action, you may spend a single daily use of your Stunning Fist feat. If you do so, the first time you cross your path or otherwise form closed area with your movement, you deal 12d6 fire damage to creatures within that area (Reflex save DC 10 + 1/2 character level + Wis modifier for half damage).
Special: A fighter can select Ki Projection as one of his fighter bonus feats. A monk with the Stunning Fist feat may ignore the base attack bonus prerequisite of Ki Projection.
Replaces: Searing Charge, Salamander Charge, Ring of Fire

RAPID STRIKES [TACTICAL]
Your fighting style focuses on making as many attacks as you can in as short a time as possible.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Combat Reflexes, base attack bonus +8
Benefit: The Rapid Strikes feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers.
Follow-up: You may expend one attack of opportunity to make a single extra melee attack on your turn at your highest base attack bonus. If you add this attack to a standard action attack, the attack of opportunity is expended as a free action and the attack is made at no penalty, but you may not target the same enemy as your first attack. If you add it to a full attack, you may either expend the attack of opportunity as a free action, in which case all attacks made on your turn take a -2 penalty, or as a swift action, in which case they take no penalty.
Blade Rhythm: You may make a single melee attack as a full-round action and expend all your attacks of opportunity for the round. If you do so, each time you hit your opponent you may make another melee attack against the same target at the same base attack bonus, but with a -4 cumulative penalty per attack (-4 to the first extra attack, -8 to the second, and so forth). If you miss, or if you reduce your target to -1 or fewer hit points, you may not make any additional attacks.
Double Blow: When an enemy provokes an attack of opportunity, you may make a single melee attack against them as an immediate action. You may make this attack in addition to or instead of the attack of opportunity, as you choose.
Special: A fighter can select Rapid Strikes as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Replaces: Flashing Sun, Steel Wind, Scything Blade, Avalanche of Blades, Rapid Counter

HORDE SLAYER [TACTICAL]
You are adept at laying waste to large numbers of foes.
Prerequisite: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, base attack bonus +12
Benefit: The Horde Slayer feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers.
Formation Breaker: If you take a charge action and end your movement adjacent to two or more enemies, you may make a full attack at the end of your charge rather than a single attack
Fight Your Way Out: If you are adjacent to three or more enemies, you may make a single melee attack against every enemy adjacent to you as a standard action. If you use a full-round action to do so, you may instead make two melee attacks against every enemy adjacent to you.
Never Outnumbered: If you are adjacent to two or more enemies, you may make two full attack actions instead of one with a single full-round action.
Special: A fighter can select Horde Slayer as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Replaces: Pouncing Charge, Mithral Tornado, Adamantine Tornado, Time Stands Still

COMBAT BLITZ [TACTICAL]
You are much more mobile than the average warrior.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Dash, Run, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: The Combat Blitz feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers.
Down the Line: You may move up to your speed as a full-round action; if you do so, you may make a single melee attack against every enemy to whom you pass adjacent, up to one attack per enemy.
Circle The Foe: Each time you make a successful melee attack, you may move 5 feet. This movement may not allow you to move more than your speed in a round, and it does not provoke an attack of opportunity from your target.
Weaving Charge: If you take a double move action and end your move adjacent to an enemy, you may treat this movement as a charge in all ways, including the ability to make a single attack against that enemy with all the benefits of a charge.
Special: A fighter can select Combat Blitz as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Replaces: Desert Tempest, Wolf Pack Tactics, Bounding Assault

{table=head]Maneuver|Functional Equivalent
Burning Blade|Fiery Fist
...|...[/table]


Devoted Spirit (Not Started)
Coming Soon

Diamond Mind (Incomplete)
RAPID STRIKES [TACTICAL]
Your fighting style focuses on making as many attacks as you can in as short a time as possible.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Combat Reflexes, base attack bonus +8
Benefit: The Rapid Strikes feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers.
Follow-up: You may expend one attack of opportunity to make a single extra melee attack on your turn at your highest base attack bonus. If you add this attack to a standard action attack, the attack of opportunity is expended as a free action and the attack is made at no penalty, but you may not target the same enemy as your first attack. If you add it to a full attack, you may either expend the attack of opportunity as a free action, in which case all attacks made on your turn take a -2 penalty, or as a swift action, in which case they take no penalty.
Blade Rhythm: You may make a single melee attack as a full-round action and expend all your attacks of opportunity for the round. If you do so, each time you hit your opponent you may make another melee attack against the same target at the same base attack bonus, but with a -4 cumulative penalty per attack (-4 to the first extra attack, -8 to the second, and so forth). If you miss, or if you reduce your target to -1 or fewer hit points, you may not make any additional attacks.
Double Blow: When an enemy provokes an attack of opportunity, you may make a single melee attack against them as an immediate action. You may make this attack in addition to or instead of the attack of opportunity, as you choose.
Special: A fighter can select Rapid Strikes as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Replaces: Flashing Sun, Steel Wind, Scything Blade, Avalanche of Blades, Rapid Counter

HORDE SLAYER [TACTICAL]
You are adept at laying waste to large numbers of foes.
Prerequisite: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, base attack bonus +12
Benefit: The Horde Slayer feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers.
Formation Breaker: If you take a charge action and end your movement adjacent to two or more enemies, you may make a full attack at the end of your charge rather than a single attack
Fight Your Way Out: If you are adjacent to three or more enemies, you may make a single melee attack against every enemy adjacent to you as a standard action. If you use a full-round action to do so, you may instead make two melee attacks against every enemy adjacent to you.
Never Outnumbered: If you are adjacent to two or more enemies, you may make two full attack actions instead of one with a single full-round action.
Special: A fighter can select Horde Slayer as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Replaces: Pouncing Charge, Mithral Tornado, Adamantine Tornado, Time Stands Still

COMBAT BLITZ [TACTICAL]
You are much more mobile than the average warrior.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Dash, Run, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: The Combat Blitz feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers.
Down the Line: You may move up to your speed as a full-round action; if you do so, you may make a single melee attack against every enemy to whom you pass adjacent, up to one attack per enemy.
Circle The Foe: Each time you make a successful melee attack, you may move 5 feet. This movement may not allow you to move more than your speed in a round, and it does not provoke an attack of opportunity from your target.
Weaving Charge: If you take a double move action and end your move adjacent to an enemy, you may treat this movement as a charge in all ways, including the ability to make a single attack against that enemy with all the benefits of a charge.
Special: A fighter can select Combat Blitz as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Replaces: Desert Tempest, Wolf Pack Tactics, Bounding Assault

CALLED SHOT [GENERAL]
By repeatedly targeting very specific areas on your opponents' bodies, you are able to more easily incapacitate them.
Prerequisite: Str 15, Dex 15, Combat Expertise or Power Attack, base attack bonus +4
Benefit: As a standard action, you may make a single melee attack and add one of the benefits below of your choice. You must possess the listed base attack bonus, if any, and use the specified weapon type to use a particular benefit.
Mangle Fingers: You deal 4 Strength damage in addition to normal melee damage; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Str or Dex modifier) halves the Strength damage (but not any other effects of the attack). This benefit must be used in conjunction with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon.
Skull Bash: You deal 4 Wisdom damage in addition to normal melee damage; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Str or Dex modifier) halves the Wisdom damage (but not any other effects of the attack). This benefit must be used in conjunction with a bludgeoning weapon, and requires a base attack bonus of +6 or higher.
Gut Blow: You deal 4 Constitution damage in addition to normal melee damage; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Str or Dex modifier) halves the Constitution damage (but not any other effects of the attack). This benefit must be used in conjunction with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon weapon, and requires a base attack bonus of +8 or higher.
Shoulder Crush: You deal 2d6 Strength damage in addition to normal melee damage and inflict a -6 penalty on attack rolls and Concentration checks for 1d6 rounds; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Str or Dex modifier) halves the Strength damage (but not any other effects of the attack) and negates the attack and Concentration penalty. This benefit must be used in conjunction with a bludgeoning weapon, and requires a base attack bonus of +10 or higher.
Hamstring: You deal 2d6 Dexterity damage in addition to normal melee damage and reduce your target's land speed to 0 feet for 1d6 rounds; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Str or Dex modifier) halves the Dexterity damage (but not any other effects of the attack) and negates the speed reduction. This benefit must be used in conjunction with a slashing or piercing weapon, and requires a base attack bonus of +12 or higher.
Bleed Out: You deal +15d6 damage in addition to normal melee damage. This benefit must be used in conjunction with a slashing or piercing weapon, and requires a base attack bonus of +14 or higher.
Impale: You deal 2d6 Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution damage in addition to normal melee damage; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Str or Dex modifier) halves the Strength and Dexterity damage (but not any other effects of the attack) and negates the Constitution damage. This benefit must be used in conjunction with a piercing weapon, and requires a base attack bonus of +16 or higher.
Special: A fighter can select Called Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Replaces: Drain Vitality, Bloodletting Strike, Strength Draining Strike, Mind Strike, Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike

MIND OVER MATTER [MENTAL]
You are able to resist poison, bleeding wounds, and other lethal afflictions through sheer force of will.
Prerequisite: Autohypnosis 8 ranks
Benefit: When you would be required to make a Fortitude save, you may spend an immediate action to make a Autohypnosis check in its place.
Replaces: Mind Over Body

ADRENALINE RUSH [MENTAL]
When something lethal is rushing towards you, time seems to slow, giving you all the time you need to get out of the way.
Prerequisite: Autohypnosis 8 ranks
Benefit: When you would be required to make a Reflex save, you may spend an immediate action to make a Autohypnosis check in its place.
Replaces: Action Before Thought

INDOMITABLE [MENTAL]
No mystical attacks can break through your mental barriers.
Prerequisite: Autohypnosis 8 ranks
Benefit: When you would be required to make a Will save, you may spend an immediate action to make a Autohypnosis check in its place.
Replaces: Moment of Perfect Mind

PERFECT FEINT [MANIPULATION]
Focusing very precisely on your opponent's movements, you can react to the slightest opening your feint provokes
Prerequisite: Bluff 5 ranks, Autohypnosis 5 ranks
Benefit: Make a melee attack as a standard action; you may make a free feint attempt. If it succeeds, you deal an extra +1d6 damage.
Replaces: Sapphire Nightmare Blade

PRECISE STRIKE [MANIPULATION]
You can find the weakest spot in any creature's defenses and take advantage of it.
Prerequisite: Autohypnosis 8 ranks, Spot 8 ranks
Benefit: Make a melee attack as a standard action, as well as a Autohypnosis check against your target's AC; if the check succeeds, your attack deals double damage. If you have at least 13 ranks in Autohypnosis and Spot, it instead deals triple damage; if you have at least 18 ranks in Autohypnosis and Spot, it deals quadruple damage.
Replaces: Ruby Nightmare Blade, Diamond Nightmare Blade

BE THE BLADE [MENTAL]
In a moment of supreme mental focus, you are able to strike harder and faster than your body is normally capable of.
Prerequisite: Autohypnosis 8 ranks
Benefit: Make a melee attack as a standard action, as well as a Autohypnosis check; if the attack hits, it deals damage equal to your check result. If you have at least 16 ranks in Autohypnosis, it instead deals damage equal to double your check result.
Replaces: Insightful Strike, Greater Insightful Strike

LIGHTNING SPRINT [MOVEMENT]
With a burst of energy, you dash across the field to a better position
Prerequisite: Tumble 12 ranks
Benefit: You may take a move action as a swift action. This special move action follows all of the normal rules for move actions.
Replaces: Quicksilver Motion

Iron Heart (Incomplete)
RAPID STRIKES [TACTICAL]
Your fighting style focuses on making as many attacks as you can in as short a time as possible.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Combat Reflexes, base attack bonus +8
Benefit: The Rapid Strikes feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers.
Follow-up: You may expend one attack of opportunity to make a single extra melee attack on your turn at your highest base attack bonus. If you add this attack to a standard action attack, the attack of opportunity is expended as a free action and the attack is made at no penalty, but you may not target the same enemy as your first attack. If you add it to a full attack, you may either expend the attack of opportunity as a free action, in which case all attacks made on your turn take a -2 penalty, or as a swift action, in which case they take no penalty.
Blade Rhythm: You may make a single melee attack as a full-round action and expend all your attacks of opportunity for the round. If you do so, each time you hit your opponent you may make another melee attack against the same target at the same base attack bonus, but with a -4 cumulative penalty per attack (-4 to the first extra attack, -8 to the second, and so forth). If you miss, or if you reduce your target to -1 or fewer hit points, you may not make any additional attacks.
Double Blow: When an enemy provokes an attack of opportunity, you may make a single melee attack against them as an immediate action. You may make this attack in addition to or instead of the attack of opportunity, as you choose.
Special: A fighter can select Rapid Strikes as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Replaces: Flashing Sun, Steel Wind, Scything Blade, Avalanche of Blades, Rapid Counter

HORDE SLAYER [TACTICAL]
You are adept at laying waste to large numbers of foes.
Prerequisite: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, base attack bonus +12
Benefit: The Horde Slayer feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers.
Formation Breaker: If you take a charge action and end your movement adjacent to two or more enemies, you may make a full attack at the end of your charge rather than a single attack
Fight Your Way Out: If you are adjacent to three or more enemies, you may make a single melee attack against every enemy adjacent to you as a standard action. If you use a full-round action to do so, you may instead make two melee attacks against every enemy adjacent to you.
Never Outnumbered: If you are adjacent to two or more enemies, you may make two full attack actions instead of one with a single full-round action.
Special: A fighter can select Horde Slayer as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Replaces: Pouncing Charge, Mithral Tornado, Adamantine Tornado, Time Stands Still

COMBAT BLITZ [TACTICAL]
You are much more mobile than the average warrior.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Dash, Run, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: The Combat Blitz feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers.
Down the Line: You may move up to your speed as a full-round action; if you do so, you may make a single melee attack against every enemy to whom you pass adjacent, up to one attack per enemy.
Circle The Foe: Each time you make a successful melee attack, you may move 5 feet. This movement may not allow you to move more than your speed in a round, and it does not provoke an attack of opportunity from your target.
Weaving Charge: If you take a double move action and end your move adjacent to an enemy, you may treat this movement as a charge in all ways, including the ability to make a single attack against that enemy with all the benefits of a charge.
Special: A fighter can select Combat Blitz as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Replaces: Desert Tempest, Wolf Pack Tactics, Bounding Assault

Setting Sun (Not Started)
Coming Soon

Shadow Hand (Incomplete)
CALLED SHOT [GENERAL]
By repeatedly targeting very specific areas on your opponents' bodies, you are able to more easily incapacitate them.
Prerequisite: Str 15, Dex 15, Combat Expertise or Power Attack, base attack bonus +4
Benefit: As a standard action, you may make a single melee attack and add one of the benefits below of your choice. You must possess the listed base attack bonus, if any, and use the specified weapon type to use a particular benefit.
Mangle Fingers: You deal 4 Strength damage in addition to normal melee damage; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Str or Dex modifier) halves the Strength damage (but not any other effects of the attack). This benefit must be used in conjunction with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon.
Skull Bash: You deal 4 Wisdom damage in addition to normal melee damage; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Str or Dex modifier) halves the Wisdom damage (but not any other effects of the attack). This benefit must be used in conjunction with a bludgeoning weapon, and requires a base attack bonus of +6 or higher.
Gut Blow: You deal 4 Constitution damage in addition to normal melee damage; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Str or Dex modifier) halves the Constitution damage (but not any other effects of the attack). This benefit must be used in conjunction with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon weapon, and requires a base attack bonus of +8 or higher.
Shoulder Crush: You deal 2d6 Strength damage in addition to normal melee damage and inflict a -6 penalty on attack rolls and Concentration checks for 1d6 rounds; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Str or Dex modifier) halves the Strength damage (but not any other effects of the attack) and negates the attack and Concentration penalty. This benefit must be used in conjunction with a bludgeoning weapon, and requires a base attack bonus of +10 or higher.
Hamstring: You deal 2d6 Dexterity damage in addition to normal melee damage and reduce your target's land speed to 0 feet for 1d6 rounds; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Str or Dex modifier) halves the Dexterity damage (but not any other effects of the attack) and negates the speed reduction. This benefit must be used in conjunction with a slashing or piercing weapon, and requires a base attack bonus of +12 or higher.
Bleed Out: You deal +15d6 damage in addition to normal melee damage. This benefit must be used in conjunction with a slashing or piercing weapon, and requires a base attack bonus of +14 or higher.
Impale: You deal 2d6 Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution damage in addition to normal melee damage; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Str or Dex modifier) halves the Strength and Dexterity damage (but not any other effects of the attack) and negates the Constitution damage. This benefit must be used in conjunction with a piercing weapon, and requires a base attack bonus of +16 or higher.
Special: A fighter can select Called Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Replaces: Drain Vitality, Bloodletting Strike, Strength Draining Strike, Mind Strike, Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike

EXTRADIMENSIONAL STEP [GENERAL]
Your ability to slip between locations on the Prime through coterminal planes improves.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Wis 13, Ghost Step (Ethereal) class feature or Shadow Jump class feature
Benefit: You can teleport up to 50 feet to any location within line of sight and line of effect. You may use this ability as a standard action, move action, or swift action; once you have used it with a particular action, you must wait 5 minutes before you can do so again (so you may use this ability a total of 3 times before needing to wait to use it again).
Replaces: Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride, Shadow Blink

Stone Dragon (Not Started)
Coming Soon

Tiger Claw (Incomplete)
COILED REFLEXES [MOVEMENT]
In one instant, you are standing perfectly still; in the next, you leap across the battlefield faster than the eye can follow.
Prerequisite: Jump 5 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks
Benefit: You may make a Jump check as a swift action and move the distance indicated by your result in a straight line. This movement follows all of the normal rules for movement.
Replaces: Sudden Leap

White Raven (Not Started)
Coming Soon

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-06, 08:26 PM
Maneuver Conversions by Category

General Feats (Incomplete)
FIERY KI BLAST [GENERAL]
You can empower your Ki Blasts with fire to make them more potent
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Wis 13, Fiery Fist, Ki Blast
Benefit: When you use your Ki Blast feat against a creature within 30 feet, you can choose to deal 6d6 fire damage at the cost of one Stunning Fist use instead of 3d6 + Wis untyped damage at the cost of two Stunning Fist uses. If you do spend two daily uses of Stunning Fist, you may instead deal this fire damage in a 30-foot cone or 12 contiguous 5-foot spaces.
Special: A fighter can select Ki Projection as one of his fighter bonus feats. A monk with the Stunning Fist feat may ignore the base attack bonus prerequisite of Fiery Ki Blast.
Replaces: Fan the Flames, Dragon's Flame, Fire Snake

CALLED SHOT [GENERAL]
By repeatedly targeting very specific areas on your opponents' bodies, you are able to more easily incapacitate them.
Prerequisite: Str 15, Dex 15, Combat Expertise or Power Attack, base attack bonus +4
Benefit: As a standard action, you may make a single melee attack and add one of the benefits below of your choice. You must possess the listed base attack bonus, if any, and use the specified weapon type to use a particular benefit.
Mangle Fingers: You deal 4 Strength damage in addition to normal melee damage; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Str or Dex modifier) halves the Strength damage (but not any other effects of the attack). This benefit must be used in conjunction with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon.
Skull Bash: You deal 4 Wisdom damage in addition to normal melee damage; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Str or Dex modifier) halves the Wisdom damage (but not any other effects of the attack). This benefit must be used in conjunction with a bludgeoning weapon, and requires a base attack bonus of +6 or higher.
Gut Blow: You deal 4 Constitution damage in addition to normal melee damage; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Str or Dex modifier) halves the Constitution damage (but not any other effects of the attack). This benefit must be used in conjunction with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon weapon, and requires a base attack bonus of +8 or higher.
Shoulder Crush: You deal 2d6 Strength damage in addition to normal melee damage and inflict a -6 penalty on attack rolls and Concentration checks for 1d6 rounds; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Str or Dex modifier) halves the Strength damage (but not any other effects of the attack) and negates the attack and Concentration penalty. This benefit must be used in conjunction with a bludgeoning weapon, and requires a base attack bonus of +10 or higher.
Hamstring: You deal 2d6 Dexterity damage in addition to normal melee damage and reduce your target's land speed to 0 feet for 1d6 rounds; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Str or Dex modifier) halves the Dexterity damage (but not any other effects of the attack) and negates the speed reduction. This benefit must be used in conjunction with a slashing or piercing weapon, and requires a base attack bonus of +12 or higher.
Bleed Out: You deal +15d6 damage in addition to normal melee damage. This benefit must be used in conjunction with a slashing or piercing weapon, and requires a base attack bonus of +14 or higher.
Impale: You deal 2d6 Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution damage in addition to normal melee damage; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Str or Dex modifier) halves the Strength and Dexterity damage (but not any other effects of the attack) and negates the Constitution damage. This benefit must be used in conjunction with a piercing weapon, and requires a base attack bonus of +16 or higher.
Special: A fighter can select Called Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Replaces: Drain Vitality, Bloodletting Strike, Strength Draining Strike, Mind Strike, Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike

EXTRADIMENSIONAL STEP [GENERAL]
Your ability to slip between locations on the Prime through coterminal planes improves.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Wis 13, Ghost Step (Ethereal) class feature or Shadow Jump class feature
Benefit: You can teleport up to 50 feet to any location within line of sight and line of effect. You may use this ability as a standard action, move action, or swift action; once you have used it with a particular action, you must wait 5 minutes before you can do so again (so you may use this ability a total of 3 times before needing to wait to use it again).
Replaces: Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride, Shadow Blink

Tactical Feats (Incomplete)
KI PROJECTION [TACTICAL]
You shape your ki into a sheath of fire over your weapons, allowing you to harm your opponents in new ways
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Wis 15, Fiery Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, base attack bonus +8
Benefit: The Ki Projection feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers. To use all of them, you must expend a daily use of your Stunning Fist feat as a swift action to envelop your unarmed strikes and any special monk weapons you wield in fire until the start of your next turn.
Tongues of Flame: When you activate this function, fire flows down past the end of your limb or weapon. Your reach increases by 5 feet and any damage dealt by your attacks becomes fire damage. You still gain all the normal benefits from a high Strength score, feats, and other effects that increase your melee damage.
Lingering Flames: When you activate this function, the flames along your limb or weapon grow in intensity. Your attacks with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons deal extra fire damage equal to 3d6 plus your character level.
Leaping Flames: When you activate this function, a flickering flame leaps off the tip of your limb or weapon and lands near your opponent. Choose a square within 30 feet; while it lasts, you and your allies may flank with this flame as if it were a creature, as your enemies are distracted by its presence.
Special: A fighter can select Ki Projection as one of his fighter bonus feats. A monk with the Stunning Fist feat may ignore the base attack bonus prerequisite of Ki Projection.
Replaces: Burning Brand, Inferno Blade, Distracting Ember

FLAMING SERPENT STYLE [TACTICAL]
You follow a fighting style that mimics the salamander's sinuous yet powerful motions; using your ki, you are able to mimic his flames as well.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Wis 15, Fiery Fist, Ki Blast, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, base attack bonus +10
Benefit: The Flaming Serpent Style feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers.
Serpent's Lunge: When you charge, you may spend a single daily use of your Stunning Fist feat. If you do so, you fly at perfect maneuverability during the charge instead of moving along the ground and you deal an extra 5d6 damage to the target of your charge.
Serpent's Tail: When you charge, you may spend a single daily use of your Stunning Fist feat. If you do so, you do not need to charge in a straight line and you ignore difficult terrain during your charge. In addition, for 1 round after you charge, the spaces through which you charged deal 5d6 fire damage to any creatures occupying or moving through them, and spaces adjacent to those through which you charged deal 3d6 fire damage.
Serpent's Coils: When you take a double move action, you may spend a single daily use of your Stunning Fist feat. If you do so, the first time you cross your path or otherwise form closed area with your movement, you deal 12d6 fire damage to creatures within that area (Reflex save DC 10 + 1/2 character level + Wis modifier for half damage).
Special: A fighter can select Ki Projection as one of his fighter bonus feats. A monk with the Stunning Fist feat may ignore the base attack bonus prerequisite of Ki Projection.
Replaces: Searing Charge, Salamander Charge, Ring of Fire

RAPID STRIKES [TACTICAL]
Your fighting style focuses on making as many attacks as you can in as short a time as possible.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Combat Reflexes, base attack bonus +8
Benefit: The Rapid Strikes feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers.
Follow-up: You may expend one attack of opportunity to make a single extra melee attack on your turn at your highest base attack bonus. If you add this attack to a standard action attack, the attack of opportunity is expended as a free action and the attack is made at no penalty, but you may not target the same enemy as your first attack. If you add it to a full attack, you may either expend the attack of opportunity as a free action, in which case all attacks made on your turn take a -2 penalty, or as a swift action, in which case they take no penalty.
Blade Rhythm: You may make a single melee attack as a full-round action and expend all your attacks of opportunity for the round. If you do so, each time you hit your opponent you may make another melee attack against the same target at the same base attack bonus, but with a -4 cumulative penalty per attack (-4 to the first extra attack, -8 to the second, and so forth). If you miss, or if you reduce your target to -1 or fewer hit points, you may not make any additional attacks.
Double Blow: When an enemy provokes an attack of opportunity, you may make a single melee attack against them as an immediate action. You may make this attack in addition to or instead of the attack of opportunity, as you choose.
Special: A fighter can select Rapid Strikes as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Replaces: Flashing Sun, Steel Wind, Scything Blade, Avalanche of Blades, Rapid Counter

HORDE SLAYER [TACTICAL]
You are adept at laying waste to large numbers of foes.
Prerequisite: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, base attack bonus +12
Benefit: The Horde Slayer feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers.
Formation Breaker: If you take a charge action and end your movement adjacent to two or more enemies, you may make a full attack at the end of your charge rather than a single attack
Fight Your Way Out: If you are adjacent to three or more enemies, you may make a single melee attack against every enemy adjacent to you as a standard action. If you use a full-round action to do so, you may instead make two melee attacks against every enemy adjacent to you.
Never Outnumbered: If you are adjacent to two or more enemies, you may make two full attack actions instead of one with a single full-round action.
Special: A fighter can select Horde Slayer as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Replaces: Pouncing Charge, Mithral Tornado, Adamantine Tornado, Time Stands Still

COMBAT BLITZ [TACTICAL]
You are much more mobile than the average warrior.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Dash, Run, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: The Combat Blitz feat grants you access to three special tactical maneuvers.
Down the Line: You may move up to your speed as a full-round action; if you do so, you may make a single melee attack against every enemy to whom you pass adjacent, up to one attack per enemy.
Circle The Foe: Each time you make a successful melee attack, you may move 5 feet. This movement may not allow you to move more than your speed in a round, and it does not provoke an attack of opportunity from your target.
Weaving Charge: If you take a double move action and end your move adjacent to an enemy, you may treat this movement as a charge in all ways, including the ability to make a single attack against that enemy with all the benefits of a charge.
Special: A fighter can select Combat Blitz as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Replaces: Desert Tempest, Wolf Pack Tactics, Bounding Assault


Weapon Style Feats (Not Started)
Coming Soon

Skill Tricks (Incomplete)
SUN IN THE EYES [MANIPULATION]
With a quick twist of your weapon, you direct reflected light into your opponents' eyes, blinding them temporarily.
Prerequisite: Sleight of Hand 5 ranks
Benefit: As a standard action, make a Sleight of Hand check against a DC of your choice. If you succeed, all other creatures within 30 feet of you are dazzled for (5 + DC/5) rounds.
Special: You must be wielding a metallic weapon to use this skill trick, and it may not be used in conditions of shadowy or darker illumination.
Replaces: Blistering Flourish

MIND OVER MATTER [MENTAL]
You are able to resist poison, bleeding wounds, and other lethal afflictions through sheer force of will.
Prerequisite: Autohypnosis 8 ranks
Benefit: When you would be required to make a Fortitude save, you may spend an immediate action to make a Autohypnosis check in its place.
Replaces: Mind Over Body

ADRENALINE RUSH [MENTAL]
When something lethal is rushing towards you, time seems to slow, giving you all the time you need to get out of the way.
Prerequisite: Autohypnosis 8 ranks
Benefit: When you would be required to make a Reflex save, you may spend an immediate action to make a Autohypnosis check in its place.
Replaces: Action Before Thought

INDOMITABLE [MENTAL]
No mystical attacks can break through your mental barriers.
Prerequisite: Autohypnosis 8 ranks
Benefit: When you would be required to make a Will save, you may spend an immediate action to make a Autohypnosis check in its place.
Replaces: Moment of Perfect Mind

PERFECT FEINT [MANIPULATION]
Focusing very precisely on your opponent's movements, you can react to the slightest opening your feint provokes
Prerequisite: Bluff 5 ranks, Autohypnosis 5 ranks
Benefit: Make a melee attack as a standard action; you may make a free feint attempt. If it succeeds, you deal an extra +1d6 damage.
Replaces: Sapphire Nightmare Blade

PRECISE STRIKE [MANIPULATION]
You can find the weakest spot in any creature's defenses and take advantage of it.
Prerequisite: Autohypnosis 8 ranks, Spot 8 ranks
Benefit: Make a melee attack as a standard action, as well as a Autohypnosis check against your target's AC; if the check succeeds, your attack deals double damage. If you have at least 13 ranks in Autohypnosis and Spot, it instead deals triple damage; if you have at least 18 ranks in Autohypnosis and Spot, it deals quadruple damage.
Replaces: Ruby Nightmare Blade, Diamond Nightmare Blade

BE THE BLADE [MENTAL]
In a moment of supreme mental focus, you are able to strike harder and faster than your body is normally capable of.
Prerequisite: Autohypnosis 8 ranks
Benefit: Make a melee attack as a standard action, as well as a Autohypnosis check; if the attack hits, it deals damage equal to your check result. If you have at least 16 ranks in Autohypnosis, it instead deals damage equal to double your check result.
Replaces: Insightful Strike, Greater Insightful Strike

LIGHTNING SPRINT [MOVEMENT]
With a burst of energy, you dash across the field to a better position
Prerequisite: Tumble 12 ranks
Benefit: You may take a move action as a swift action. This special move action follows all of the normal rules for move actions.
Replaces: Quicksilver Motion

COILED REFLEXES [MOVEMENT]
In one instant, you are standing perfectly still; in the next, you leap across the battlefield faster than the eye can follow.
Prerequisite: Jump 5 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks
Benefit: You may make a Jump check as a swift action and move the distance indicated by your result in a straight line. This movement follows all of the normal rules for movement.
Replaces: Sudden Leap

Other (Not Started)
Coming Soon

Existing Equivalents (Incomplete)
{table=head]Maneuver|Functional Equivalent
Burning Blade|Fiery Fist
...|...[/table]

Corporate M
2010-04-06, 09:29 PM
I kind of like your idea... But think it could work a bit differently... Bare with me for a moment here, but what if every feat comes with a manuever unlock only avaliable to martial defined classes?

Lets say each martial class could select a number of styles. There's nine styles, so...

Monk (4)
Fighter (3)
Barbarian (3)
Scout (6)
Rogue (5)
Ninja (6)
Samurai (9)
Swashbuckler (8)
Paladin (7)
Ranger (7)
Hexblade (3)
Soulknife (5)

Obviously fighter should lack verstaility since he gets all the bonus feats to use more manuevers. As well, barbarians are pretty good, and combined with a manuever could do alot of damage output. But at the same time giving them enough to make use of feats... I'd make examples, but it isn't hard to grasp. A feat would introduce you with a martial manuever or stance you could learn with it. Level 1 to Level 9, and each feat gives you a selection of one manuever or stance from every style. Which feats what is too much detail to go into here, but would be more important is how you issue balance.

Level 1: At-will
Level 2: 3/encounter
Level 3: 2/encounter
Level 4: 1/encounter
Level 5: 3/day
Level 6: 3/day with 5 round interlude between each use
Level 7: 2/day
Level 8: 2/day with 5 round interlude between each use
Level 9: 1/day

I'd probably like stances to be changed too that they only last for a number of rounds equal to your martial level. (Martia level=any class defined as martial. They stack unlike normal casters...) So essentially stances would just be longer lasting boosts. I think even with samurai (Be it Complete Warrior or Oriental Adventures) having access to all nine disciplines, he's still a bit behind.


So rather then making a bunch of new feats, we merely add to pre-existing feats that classes that suck, get a little extra for sucking...

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-06, 11:18 PM
I kind of like your idea... But think it could work a bit differently... Bare with me for a moment here, but what if every feat comes with a manuever unlock only avaliable to martial defined classes?

The issue is that the people who dislike ToB because of the aspects you've suggested keeping. The disciplines feel too much like spell schools, the levels feel too much like Vancian casting, the per-encounter mechanic isn't realistic enough/is too different, and so forth. It's very easy to simply add maneuvers and stances to existing classes in varying progressions, but that's not what I'm trying to accomplish here.

Melayl
2010-04-06, 11:42 PM
I don't know that I'll be able to contribute in any meaningful way, but I really like this idea, Dice. Please, keep at it!

Eclipse
2010-04-07, 12:25 AM
Of those who don't like ToB, no one I've seen has disliked it because they're happy with existing options and don't feel that martial characters could use anything more. You can always use more feats, items, spells, etc. for your characters, right? The objections raised are usually about the mechanical structure and/or feel of the flavor, which are two complaints that go away if you turn them into feats.

Feel free to take this over to the other thread so as not to clutter this one; a discussion of whether the project is a good one or not, its aims, etc. is fine by me.

Pulled over from the thread that spawned the project (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146185&page=28), since you said you're cool with this discussion being over here. Anyone looking for context should check it out.

I definitely get what you're saying. There were two things I was thinking with what I said. First, I'm not so sure people will look to house rules based on a book they don't like to get those extra options. Second, I don't think this will actually end the debates, as was one of the stated goals.

That said, I still think this is completely worthwhile and a lot of good will come of it. And as I said before, I could be wrong about the things above too, and maybe people will really warm to it more than I think. I do think there will be some people who derive great value from the project, even some from those who dislike ToB. I'm just unsure about the premise that it will end the debate, or that it should be used as something to point people to when they cite why they dislike ToB. Perhaps for people looking for something like it, but more "traditional" though.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-07, 12:32 AM
I definitely get what you're saying. There were two things I was thinking with what I said. First, I'm not so sure people will look to house rules based on a book they don't like to get those extra options. Second, I don't think this will actually end the debates, as was one of the stated goals.

The idea that this will end the debate is an exaggeration, I admit. I'm not expecting anyone to claim to dislike ToB, get linked here, stare in awe at my awesome homebrewing skills, and become an instant convert (though that would be kinda cool :smallwink:). My goal here is to show that it can be done, that you can change the flavor that you don't like, that you can look past the encounter-recharge, nine-level system and see the mechanical benefits that ToB brings.


I'm just unsure about the premise that it will end the debate, or that it should be used as something to point people to when they cite why they dislike ToB. Perhaps for people looking for something like it, but more "traditional" though.

That's who I'm hoping to reach, the ones who say "I want to make a kickass fighter, but ToB is just too anime for me!" or "I wanted a less magical paladin, but the crusader is more magical!" or things like that. Again, the notion that this'll end the debate is tongue-in-cheek; I'm just hoping to persuade a few folks on the fence about it.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-04-07, 10:30 AM
Interesting idea, Dice. Color me intrigued...and willing to help.

Lappy9000
2010-04-07, 01:37 PM
As someone who dislikes Tomb of Battle for the very reasons Dice has stated, I heartily endorse this service and/or product!

Oslecamo
2010-04-07, 01:57 PM
The idea that this will end the debate is an exaggeration, I admit. I'm not expecting anyone to claim to dislike ToB, get linked here, stare in awe at my awesome homebrewing skills, and become an instant convert (though that would be kinda cool :smallwink:). My goal here is to show that it can be done, that you can change the flavor that you don't like, that you can look past the encounter-recharge, nine-level system and see the mechanical benefits that ToB brings.

I wish you good luck. Because you're far from the first person to try to do this. This should be the sixth project I've seen try to "un-flavor" ToB. Perhaps you'll be the one who gets this done. But meh, 9 schools and dozens of maneuvers ain't an easy job.



That's who I'm hoping to reach, the ones who say "I want to make a kickass fighter, but ToB is just too anime for me!" or "I wanted a less magical paladin, but the crusader is more magical!" or things like that. Again, the notion that this'll end the debate is tongue-in-cheek; I'm just hoping to persuade a few folks on the fence about it.

Actualy, those people don't exist. What exists are "I want to make a kickass fighter, help me pick it's feats! And please no ToB", wich are answered by "Lol fighters are worthless, ToB is the only way to make kickass melee!"

So, really, this project is aiming at very few people if any at all. There's already magic-less paladins, and there's cool fighter builds out there, not to mention tons of prcs.

Not to mention all the homebrew projects with even more feats that grant special options. Feats are precious. If you want to make those atractive to players, you'll have to bundle the weaker maneuvers in single feats.

Plus, spending precious skill points for a power that only works in broad daylight for a very minor effect that allows a save? Doesn't seem very atractive to me if you want to make a "kickass" character.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-07, 03:38 PM
Actualy, those people don't exist. What exists are "I want to make a kickass fighter, help me pick it's feats! And please no ToB", wich are answered by "Lol fighters are worthless, ToB is the only way to make kickass melee!"

So, really, this project is aiming at very few people if any at all. There's already magic-less paladins, and there's cool fighter builds out there, not to mention tons of prcs.

Not to mention all the homebrew projects with even more feats that grant special options. Feats are precious. If you want to make those atractive to players, you'll have to bundle the weaker maneuvers in single feats.

As mentioned, I'm going to try to bundle maneuvers together as much as possible to alleviate the too-few-feats problem. And for those looking for fighter feats and not ToB, well, that's what these feats are for.


Plus, spending precious skill points for a power that only works in broad daylight for a very minor effect that allows a save? Doesn't seem very atractive to me if you want to make a "kickass" character.

That's where everyone's help with balance comes in. My first inclination was to make it like so:

SUN IN THE EYES [MANIPULATION]
With a quick twist of your weapon, you direct reflected light into your opponents' eyes, blinding them temporarily.
Prerequisite: Sleight of Hand 5 ranks
Benefit: As a standard action, make a Sleight of Hand check. All other creatures within 30 feet of you must make a Fortitude save (DC equals your check result) or be dazzled for 1 minute.
Special: You must be wielding a metallic weapon to use this skill trick.

The problems I saw with that were (A) skill checks can get ridiculously high relative to saves and (B) it doesn't make sense to flash light in peoples' eyes if there's little illumination around. Another alternative would simply be to replace the save with a skill check instead of incorporating both, in which case a no-save dazzle effect might be more worthwhile. Thoughts?

JoshuaZ
2010-04-07, 05:04 PM
The problems I saw with that were (A) skill checks can get ridiculously high relative to saves and (B) it doesn't make sense to flash light in peoples' eyes if there's little illumination around. Another alternative would simply be to replace the save with a skill check instead of incorporating both, in which case a no-save dazzle effect might be more worthwhile. Thoughts?

Instead of a skill check maybe make the saves dependent on ranks in the skill? Or ranks + ability modifier?

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-07, 06:49 PM
Instead of a skill check maybe make the saves dependent on ranks in the skill? Or ranks + ability modifier?

That could work, though my reasoning for using a check in the first place is that all the other skill tricks either involve a check or modify a check.

Another idea: When you use the trick, choose a DC; if you beat the DC, you dazzle them for 5 + DC/5 rounds, no save. That puts it on a par with the original maneuver (needing only DC 25 to match it) while involving a skill check somehow.

Also, I've converted a few more DW maneuvers for people to take a look at.

EDIT: Whoops, missed these replies in my last post:


Interesting idea, Dice. Color me intrigued...and willing to help.

At the moment I'm essentially going through the disciplines in order, so if you want to help just pick something after Devoted Spirit and go to town.


As someone who dislikes Tomb of Battle for the very reasons Dice has stated, I heartily endorse this service and/or product!

Good to hear. Your feedback on the converted maneuvers would be helpful, then, and pointing out any particular problem maneuvers so I can prioritize those would be great.

jseah
2010-04-07, 09:54 PM
Why not try this:

Maneuvers are granted by feats. 1 feat grants all the maneuvers from 1 school of the next level (starting at 1, taking the feat a 2nd time gives you 2nd level maneuvers)

Each feat requires the level*2-1 in Bab. (getting all the maneuvers is impossible since it requires 7*9 = 63 feats)

Each feat is deflavoured from the school-label and grants the supernatural abilities if the user satisfies certain criteria. (based on your idea)
eg.
Desert Wind - Ki Blast
Devoted Spirit - Turn Undead / Lay on Hands
Diamond Mind - Psionic Focus
Iron Heart - Combat Expertise / Defensive Stance?
Setting Sun - Combat Expertise / Weapon Finesse / Improved Trip
Shadow Hand - ????
Stone Dragon - Power Attack / Rage
Tiger Claw - Pounce / Rage
White Raven - Leadership / Inspire X

**********************************************

Regardless whether you take my extreme hack: (born out of sheer laziness =P)

These probably need modifying since you are combining multiple maneuvers into each feat.

Setting Sun

Counter Charge
With a sidestep or a shove, you dodge an opponent's reckless charge.
Prerequisite: Dodge or Tumble 4 ranks
Benefit: When readying an action to hit an opponent charging towards you, if you hit with your attack, you may make an opposed strength or dexterity check with a +4 bonus to move your opponent up to two squares of your choosing. If you succeed, your opponent does not get to make attacks dependent on his charge.


Mighty Throw
With a heave or clever misdirection, you throw your sparring partner onto the mat.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike or Combat Expertise
Benefit: When grappling an opponent, you may make a trip check at +4 bonus to throw your opponent up to 10 feet away from you. The opponent lands prone in the destination square which must be empty. No available destinations means the opponents falls prone in your square. The opponent does not provoke AoOs for this movement.

StormingMarcus
2010-04-08, 12:14 PM
Nice project!
I would try to keep it as generic as possible. If you want to de-flavor it, I do not see any use in re-flavoring it as monk techniques and so on.
If balance reasons are compelling, we could make a feat only as a prerequisite to other manoeuver-like feats.
Using skill tricks is like the same thing, I should avoid it whenever possible.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-08, 02:07 PM
I would try to keep it as generic as possible. If you want to de-flavor it, I do not see any use in re-flavoring it as monk techniques and so on.

As mentioned, only the obviously supernatural ones are getting reflavored that way; it's kind of hard to genericize throwing fire blasts all over the place, but the DW abilities that give you more attacks, increase your speed, and so on won't be monk flavored.

The Corinthian
2010-04-09, 09:02 AM
This is awesome. I started doing something similar myself on the ENworld forum, but it was rather smaller-scale, and the project quickly lost steam. My system was inspired partially by the Psionic Focus mechanic, and partially by the PHB 2 Combat Form feats (Which were such a disappointment, although a great idea).

Therefore, what I have might not be compatible with what you're doing, but maybe you can get something out of it:

My ToB Un-Flavoring Microproject (http://http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-house-rules/268890-subsystems-feats-part-one-martial-adepts.html)

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-11, 03:43 PM
Well, this project hasn't died, but I just got Mass Effect 2 and the latest Dresden Files book, so my priorities will probably be elsewhere for about a week. Meanwhile, feel free to make suggestions/contribute/whatever.

IcarusWings
2010-04-11, 04:49 PM
I kinda agree with StormingMarcus, you're making the abilities just as Anime/supernatural. Sun in the Eyes is good, but how is the whole Ki Projection and stuff different from the normal manoeuvres (flavour-wise, not mechanically cos' you've got the whole feat thing and all that jazz).

Don't get me wrong, I love what you're doing with this stuff, it's just I think you're only half-succeeding at the whole un-flavouring thing.

I accept that it's very very hard to genericise throwing fireballs and the like but still...

Sorry if that sounds harsh or anything, it's just my opinion on matters.

Merlin

Melayl
2010-04-11, 05:01 PM
He's basing the "supernatural"-type maneuvers and such off of abilities that are already supernatural in nature, like the monk's Ki abilities.


I just got Mass Effect 2 and the latest Dresden Files book,

I so envy you right now...

NineThePuma
2010-04-11, 05:59 PM
As a ToB fan, and hearing someone say "it's too anime style" to stuff like this... *grabs my copy of PHB 2 and points directly at Fiery Fist feat, then at Ki Blast* Bam. *would point to more, but is a tad bit lazy*

There are ridiculously 'anime' capabilities for EVERY class. The supernatural stuff being tied into OTHER super natural stuff I can understand, even sympathize with.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-11, 06:01 PM
He's basing the "supernatural"-type maneuvers and such off of abilities that are already supernatural in nature, like the monk's Ki abilities.

Precisely. The fire-based Desert Wind maneuvers and the shadow-based Shadow Hand maneuvers are getting the monk and ninja (or shadowdancer, haven't decided yet) treatment, respectively. Everything else is going to be entirely mundane.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-18, 04:40 PM
I've finished my book and gotten most of the way through ME2, so I'm back to work on this. I've added 3 more tactical feats, all of which incorporate Diamond Mind and Iron Heart maneuvers and so are not supernaturally flavored, for those of you worried about the monk fluff in the Desert Wind conversions thus far. Feedback is appreciated.

StormingMarcus
2010-04-19, 08:25 AM
As far as I can see, Diamond Mind and Iron Heart have the same tactical feats.

DaTedinator
2010-04-19, 09:58 AM
The more I read of this, the more I like this *better* than Tome of Battle. And I already liked it. This is fantastic.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-19, 11:35 AM
As far as I can see, Diamond Mind and Iron Heart have the same tactical feats.

They do. If a feat incorporates maneuvers from multiple disciplines, it's listed under all of those disciplines in the "listing by disciplines" post, so you can find the feat that replaces a maneuver you're looking for. The three latest feats have Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, and Iron Heart components, so they're in all three. In the "listing by type" post they only show up once. I'll put a note to that effect at the top of the post.

StormingMarcus
2010-04-19, 11:39 AM
Thank you for clarifying, I was getting a bit confused.

About the maneuvers, just scrolling them I see they have long text. Are you prone to some condensation and simplification, thus needing less feats to encompass all the maneuvers, or are you trying to stick as close as possible to the original?

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-19, 12:00 PM
About the maneuvers, just scrolling them I see they have long text. Are you prone to some condensation and simplification, thus needing less feats to encompass all the maneuvers, or are you trying to stick as close as possible to the original?

I'm definitely attempting to condense the maneuvers as much as possible. A warblade gets 13 maneuvers, 4 stances, 7 regular feats, and 4 bonus feats over his 20 levels, whereas the fighter only gets 11 bonus feats and 7 regular feats, so if a fighter wants to get a similar number of "maneuvers" and still have room for other feats he wants to take, a 1 feat:1 maneuver ratio isn't going to work.

Melayl
2010-04-19, 12:34 PM
I'm really liking this adaptation. I'm assuming there will be some feats with significantly lower BAB requirements?

StormingMarcus
2010-04-19, 12:39 PM
So, what about preliminary assigning a primary function/goal to all the maneuvers and then regrouping them in feats or whatever?

Something like this for Tiger Claw:
Blood in the water --> Improves attack and damage after criticals.
Claw at the moon --> Jump check to improve damage.
Dancing mongoose --> More attacks against single target.
Death from above --> Jump check to gain surprise, improve damage and shift.
Feral death blow --> Jump check to gain surprise, improve damage and SoD.
Fountain of blood --> Incapatitates opponent to intimidate its allies.
Girallon windmill --> Multiple attacks against single target and improves damage.
Hamstring attack --> Deals Dex damage and reduces target's speed.
Hunter's sense --> Gains scent.
Leaping dragon --> Improves Jump checks.
Pouncing charge --> Full attack after charge.
Prey on the weak --> Gains AoO if opponents are incapacitated.
Rapid bear strike --> Improves attack and damage but decreases AC.
Rapid wolf strike --> Same as Rapid bear strike.
Raging mongoose --> More attacks.
Soaring raptor --> Jump check to improve attack and damage against larger target.
Sudden leap --> Jump as a swift action.
Swooping dragon --> Jump check to gain surprise, improve damage and stun target.
Wolf climbs the mountain --> Improves damage and grants cover from larger target.
Wolf fang strike --> Single attack with both weapons as -2.
Wolf pack tactics --> Shifts after successful attacks.
Wolverine stance --> Attack grappling opponents with 1H weapons and improves damage against larget targets.

Sudden Leap might be a nice skill trick, maybe adding that you do not provoke AoOs with your movement.
Leaping dragon seems to me a bit unnecessary and not meaningful for a feat.
All the "jump to gain surprise" can be trasformed into a mechanic letting characters use Jump to feint.
Blood in the water can make a nice feat.
Rapid bear strike can be a uber-power attack, so I'd just disallow it.

Tomorrow maybe I will try a hand at some of those.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-19, 02:53 PM
I'm really liking this adaptation. I'm assuming there will be some feats with significantly lower BAB requirements?

There will be. At the moment, I'm eyeballing the BAB requirements based on the level of the maneuvers they're replacing (for instance, Horde Slayer requires BAB +12 because it incorporates a 7th-level and a 9th-level maneuver). When I've got a good chunk of the maneuvers converted, I'll go back and try to come up with a more consistent prerequisite scheme.


So, what about preliminary assigning a primary function/goal to all the maneuvers and then regrouping them in feats or whatever?

That's essentially what I'm doing, though not as methodically (I'm going through the chapter grouping maneuvers as I come across them, rather than doing it top-down). If you could go through and do the same list for the other disciplines which you provided for Tiger Claw, that would be extremely helpful.

DracoDei
2010-04-19, 03:31 PM
Any plans to extend this to homebrewed stuff when you are done with the Nine?

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-19, 04:41 PM
Any plans to extend this to homebrewed stuff when you are done with the Nine?

Possible, but unlikely. Just the main nine will be hard enough without opening the floodgates to all the other disciplines.

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-19, 04:42 PM
All I have to say is: AWESOME.

I have to admit I didn't expect this project to pan out into anything, but this is very good. Keep up the great work.

StormingMarcus
2010-04-20, 11:24 AM
That's essentially what I'm doing, though not as methodically (I'm going through the chapter grouping maneuvers as I come across them, rather than doing it top-down). If you could go through and do the same list for the other disciplines which you provided for Tiger Claw, that would be extremely helpful. Our approaches are not the same. I list the functions of the maneuvers and then regroup then "thematically". I do not insist on the exact number, I am prone to rework them while creating the feats/skill tricks what the heck. You have been more analytical so far, trying to balance the maneuver-feats by their corresponding level.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-20, 11:34 AM
Our approaches are not the same. I list the functions of the maneuvers and then regroup then "thematically". I do not insist on the exact number, I am prone to rework them while creating the feats/skill tricks what the heck. You have been more analytical so far, trying to balance the maneuver-feats by their corresponding level.

You'll notice I've been very flexible on which maneuvers fit together and how exactly their mechanics line up. Thematic concerns are taking priority over strict balance concerns; if balance were my primary concern, I wouldn't have thrown 4th, 7th, 9th level maneuvers together and make it available at 12th level with only 2 other feat prerequisites. :smallwink:

StormingMarcus
2010-04-20, 12:01 PM
You'll notice I've been very flexible on which maneuvers fit together and how exactly their mechanics line up. Still not as much as I would be :smallwink:

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-20, 12:09 PM
Still not as much as I would be :smallwink:

True. However, as I mentioned in response to Melayl, I'm trying to eyeball prerequisites as I go along; towards the end, I'll go through and do some revisions, which will likely include a loosening of prerequisites once I see how everything goes.

StormingMarcus
2010-04-20, 12:40 PM
By the way, I started a similar project on an italian forum (I can provide the link if you are interested). While I go through the various disciplines, I'll post an exercise similar to that I did about Tiger Claw to provide some help.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-20, 12:53 PM
That would be great.

Melayl
2010-04-20, 07:09 PM
In an effort to actually contribute:

Shadow Hand

Assassin's Stance → gain sneak attack or extra sneak attack damage
Balance on the Sky → Use Air Walk as spell
Bloodletting Strike → does Constitution damage
Child of Shadow → Move and gain concealment
Clinging Shadow Strike → does extra damage and gives miss chance on victim's next turn
Cloak of Deception → Greater Invisibility until end of turn
Dance of the Spider → Spider Climb, retain Dex bonus while climbing
Death in the Dark → attack vs flat-footed opponent does lots of extra damage
Drain Vitality → does Constitution damage
Enervating Shadow Strike → deals negative levels and gains you temp HP
Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike → does lots of extra damage and random Ability damage
Ghost Blade → opponent is flat-footed vs your attack
Hand of Death → touch attack makes flat-footed opponent paralyzed
Island of Blades → grants flanking benefits to you and allies
Obscuring Shadow Veil → extra melee damage and greater miss chance on victim's next turn
One with Shadow → Become incorporeal
Shadow Blade Technique → Phantom weapon attacks with you to deal extra damage
Shadow Blink → Shadow Jaunt as a swift action
Shadow Garrote → Shadow attack does damage and causes victim to be flat-footed
Shadow Jaunt → Short range teleport
Shadow Noose → flat-footed victim takes large damage, gets stunned
Shadow Stride → Shadow Jaunt as move action
Stalker in the Night → move and attack from hiding, stay hidden
Step of the Dancing Moth → float above the ground while you move, ignore terrain
Strength Draining Strike → deal Strength damage

StormingMarcus
2010-04-21, 12:46 PM
WHITE RAVEN

Battle leader's charge -> Charge with no AoO and bonus damage.
Bolstering voice -> Allies get a bonus to Will saves and to saves against fear.
Clarion call -> If you incapacitate an opponents, allies can move or make a single attack.
Covering attack -> Target cannot make AoOs.
Douse the flames -> As Covering attack.
Flanking maneuver -> If you strike a flanked opponent, flanking ally gets a free attack against it.
Leading the attack -> If you strike an opponent, allies get an attack bonus against it.
Leading the charge -> Allies get a bonus on charging damage.
Lion's roar -> If you incapacitate an opponent, you and allies get bonus to damage.
Order forged from chaos -> Allies gain a free move.
Press the advantage -> You can make two 5ft steps any turn.
Swarm tactics -> Allies get attack bonus against opponents adjacent to you.
Swarming assault -> Threatening allies get a free attack against an opponent struck by you.
Tactical strike -> Single attack with damage bonus and threatened allies get a free 5ft step.
Tactics of the wolf -> You and allies get damage bonus against flanked targets.
War leader's charge -> Same as battle leader's charge.
War master's charge -> Charge with no AoOs, bonus damage and stunning effect; allies get a free charge against the target with attack and damage bonus.
White raven hammer -> Extra damage and stunning on a single attack.
White raven strike -> Extra damage and flat-footing on a single attack.
White raven tactics -> An ally's Initiative become yours-1.

StormingMarcus
2010-04-22, 12:26 PM
SETTING SUN
Baffling defense -> Substitute Sense Motive for AC for a single attack.
Ballista throw -> Trip attack with throw and extra damage.
Clever positioning -> You swap places with target if you hit him.
Comet throw -> As Ballista throw.
Counter charge -> Deviate charging enemy to another target.
Devastating throw -> As Ballista throw.
Feigned opening -> Opponents making AoOs against you trigger AoOs from you or from allies.
Fool's strike -> Opponent attacks himself.
Ghostly defense -> Redirect to adjacent targets attack that missed you because concealment.
Giant killing style -> Bonus to attacks and damage against larger opponents.
Hydra slaying strike -> Struck target cannot make full attack on its turn.
Mighty throw -> As Ballista throw, but with no extra damage.
Mirrored pursuit -> Follow an opponent's move step by step.
Scorpion parry -> Redirect attack against you to adjacent target.
Shifting defense -> If attacked, you can trade AoOs for 5-ft steps.
Soaring throw -> As Ballista throw.
Stalking shadow -> You move in a square just left by adjacent opponent.
Step of the wind -> Ignore difficult terrain and gain attack bonus against opponents on difficult terrain.
Strike of the broken shield -> Extra damage and make target flat-footed.
Tornado throw -> You charge, trip and throw an opponent dealing extra damage.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-23, 12:58 PM
Eight more skill tricks and two more feats are up, incorporating all of the Diamond Mind Concentration-in-place-of-X maneuvers and several ability damage maneuvers; take a look.

StormingMarcus
2010-04-23, 01:10 PM
Called shot is sooo looong...

DESERT WIND
Blistering flourish -> Creatures within range are dazzled.
Burning blade -> Extra fire damage.
Burning brand -> Your weapon gets extra reach and deals fire damage.
Death mark -> Creatures near to the struck opponent are dealt fire damage.
Desert tempest -> Anytime within a single move you are no more adjacent to an opponent, you can make a single attack against it.
Distracting ember -> Opponent threatened by you or an ally is considered flanked.
Dragon's flame -> Fire breath weapon.
Fan the flames -> Throw small fireballs at single opponents.
Fiery assault -> As burning blade.
Fire riposte -> If you are struck in melee you can deal fire damage to the attacker with a touch attack.
Firesnake -> A flame runs across the battlefield, dealing fire damage to everyone he comes across.
Flame's blessing -> You get fire resistance based on your Tumble ranks.
Flashing sun -> Full attack at -2 but with an extra attack.
Hatchling's flame -> As Dragon's flame.
Holocaust cloak -> Anyone striking you in melee takes fire damage.
Inferno blade -> As burning blade.
Inferno blast -> Creature within range take fire damage.
Leaping flame -> You appear adjacent to an opponent who has just attacked you.
Lingering inferno -> You deal extra continuous fire damage.
Ring of fire -> You leave a trail of flame that bursts if forming an enclosed area.
Rising phoenix -> You gain fly speed and extra fire damage if you hover.
Salamander's charge -> You can charge anywhere and in crooked lines; you leave a trail of fire, dealing fire damage to everyone in those squares and lasting 5 rounds.
Searing blade -> As burning blade.
Searing charge -> If you charge, you can fly and deal extra fire damage.
Wind stride -> Extra speed.
Wyrm's flame -> As Dragon's flame.
Zephyr dance -> You gain dodge bonus against a single attack.

DEVOTED SPIRIT
Aura of chaos -> If damage dice is maximum, you can reroll and add the result.
Aura of perfect order -> You can take 11 on a single d20 check.
Aura of triumph -> You and one ally heal when either strikes an evil target.
Aura of tyranny -> You drain hp from allies to heal yourself.
Castigating strike -> All mis-aligned opponents in the area take damage and attack penalty.
Crusader's strike -> You or an ally heal if you strike a mis-aligned opponent.
Daunting strike -> Struck opponent become shaken.
Defensive rebuke -> Target provokes AoOs from you everytime he attacks an ally.
Divine surge -> Deal extra damage with a single attack.
Divine surge greater -> Deal extra damage with a single attack and can burn Con to get attack and damage bonus.
Doom charge -> Your charge does extra damage to good opponents and you get DR.
Entangling blade -> You deal extra damage and reduce target's speed.
Foe hammer -> You deal extra damage and automatically overcome DR.
Immortal fortitude -> If an attack would incapacitate you, you can make Fort save to avoid damage.
Iron guard's glare -> Threatened opponents get an attack penalty against your allies.
Law bearer -> You charge a chaotic target with attack and damage bonus and gain a bonus to saves and AC.
Martial spirit -> An ally heals everytime you strike an opponent.
Radiant charge -> Same and opposite to Doom charge.
Rallying strike -> If you hit a mis-aligned opponent, all allies within range heal.
Revitalizing strike -> Same as Crusader's strike.
Shield block -> Grant an adjacent ally a bonus to AC against one attack.
Shield counter -> You can make a shield bash to evade an opponent's attack.
Strike of righteous vitality -> As crusader's strike.
Thicket of blades -> All threatened opponents draw AoOs from you however they move.
Tide of chaos -> You charge a lawful target with attack and damage bonus and gain total concealment.
Vanguard strike -> Allies get a bonus to attacks against the opponent you hit.

The Corinthian
2010-04-24, 05:24 AM
This is great stuff.
But the power level, generally speaking, seems egregiously high.
Is it because this is essentially the alpha version?

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-24, 12:08 PM
This is great stuff.
But the power level, generally speaking, seems egregiously high.
Is it because this is essentially the alpha version?

Basically. As I mentioned before, I'm putting in whatever prerequisites seem thematically appropriate right now, and will be going through and calibrating everything once everything is converted.

StormingMarcus
2010-04-25, 04:14 AM
DIAMOND MIND
Action before thought -> Roll Concentration instead of Reflexes.
Avalanche of blades -> You keep on attacking a single opponent (with a -4 cumulative attack penalty) until you miss or he is incapacitated.
Bounding assault -> You double move and then attack; your attack is considered a charge for all advantageous aspects.
Diamond defense -> Get bonus on a single saving throw.
Diamond nightmare blade -> Concentration check improves your damage.
Disrupting blow -> Struck target cannot take any action on his turn.
Emerald razor -> Turn a melee attack in a touch attack.
Hearing the air -> Gain blindsense and bonus to Listen checks.
Insightful strike -> Concentration check determines your damage.
Insightful strike, greater -> Same as Insightful strike.
Mind over body -> Roll Concentration instead of Fortitude.
Mind strike -> Your attack deals Wisdom damage.
Moment of alacrity -> Improve your Initiative.
Moment of perfect mind -> Roll Concentration instead of Will.
Pearl of black doubt -> Gain dodge bonus anytime you are missed.
Quicksilver motion -> Use a swift action as a move action.
Rapid counter -> Everytime you get an AoOs, you make two.
Ruby nightmare blade -> As Diamond nightmare blade.
Sapphire nightmare blade -> Concentration check catches opponent flatfooted and improves your damage.
Stance of alacrity -> You can use one counter a round as a free action.
Stance of clarity -> Gain AC bonus against one target and an AC penalty against other opponents.
Time stands still -> You can have two full attacks a round.

IRON HEART
Absolute steel -> Gain a speed increase and an AC bonus if you move.
Adamantine hurricane -> Gain an attack bonus and make two attacks against any opponent you threaten.
Dancing blade form -> Increase your reach.
Dazing strike -> Struck opponent is dazed.
Disarming strike -> You make a normal attack and a disarm attempt.
Exorcism of steel -> When you sunder, the opponent holding the weapon gets attack penalty.
Finishing move -> Get a damage bonus if opponent's hp are low.
Iron heart endurance -> If your hp are low, you heal.
Iron heart focus -> Reroll a saving throw.
Iron heart surge -> End a single effect bestowed upon you and get attack bonus.
Lightning recovery -> Reroll missed attacks with an attack bonus.
Lightning throw -> Deal damage to all opponents within range.
Manticore parry -> Redirect an attack against you to an adjacent target.
Mithral tornado -> As Adamantine hurricane.
Punishing stance -> Deal extra damage but get AC penalty.
Scything strike -> If your first attack hits, you gain another free attack.
Steel wind -> Make a single attack against two threatened opponents.
Steely strike -> Make a single attack with a bonus, but opponents other than target gain the same bonus to attack you.
Strike of perfect clarity -> Deal extra damage.
Supreme blade parry -> If armed and not flat footed, you gain DR.
Wall of blades -> Use an opposed attack instead of your AC.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-05-01, 12:41 AM
Just wanted to reassure people once again that a posting gap doesn't mean abandonment; it's finals and final projects time, so I've been coding my ass off rather than combing through ToB.

Draz74
2010-05-01, 12:51 AM
Wouldn't Autohypnosis be a better prerequisite for Mind Over Matter than Concentration?

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-05-01, 12:59 AM
Wouldn't Autohypnosis be a better prerequisite for Mind Over Matter than Concentration?

Probably would be. However, (A) Diamond Mind uses Concentration, so by making Concentration the key for all of those skill tricks it remains similar mechanically, and (B) Autohypnosis, being a skill introduced in the XPH, is less prevalent than Concentration (and probably more likely to be banned, as if you're banning ToB you're quite likely also banning psionics).

DracoDei
2010-05-01, 02:09 AM
Probably would be. However, (A) Diamond Mind uses Concentration, so by making Concentration the key for all of those skill tricks it remains similar mechanically, and (B) Autohypnosis, being a skill introduced in the XPH, is less prevalent than Concentration (and probably more likely to be banned, as if you're banning ToB you're quite likely also banning psionics).

Might be worth including a foot-note about an alternative rule though.

Draz74
2010-05-01, 02:33 AM
Probably would be. However, (A) Diamond Mind uses Concentration, so by making Concentration the key for all of those skill tricks it remains similar mechanically, and (B) Autohypnosis, being a skill introduced in the XPH, is less prevalent than Concentration (and probably more likely to be banned, as if you're banning ToB you're quite likely also banning psionics).

I'm confused. Yes, psionics are more likely to be banned when ToB is banned; but I thought this project was proceeding under an assumption that psionics were allowed, anyway; at least where Diamond Mind stuff is concerned. Your OP does imply that.

Personally I quite prefer that not every caster be able to take this skill trick; that it be restricted to those who are either psionic or have taken some interesting cross-class ranks. (I could have gone further, I suppose, and recommended that the Concentration check itself be replaced with an Autohypnosis check ... :smallwink:)

Your project, of course. I just recommend being consistent about what your underlying assumptions are, and what your goals for flavor consistency are.

StormingMarcus
2010-05-01, 04:18 AM
IRON HEART
Absolute steel -> Gain a speed increase and an AC bonus if you move.
Adamantine hurricane -> Gain an attack bonus and make two attacks against any opponent you threaten.
Dancing blade form -> Increase your reach.
Dazing strike -> Struck opponent is dazed.
Disarming strike -> You make a normal attack and a disarm attempt.
Exorcism of steel -> When you sunder, the opponent holding the weapon gets attack penalty.
Finishing move -> Get a damage bonus if opponent's hp are low.
Iron heart endurance -> If your hp are low, you heal.
Iron heart focus -> Reroll a saving throw.
Iron heart surge -> End a single effect bestowed upon you and get attack bonus.
Lightning recovery -> Reroll missed attacks with an attack bonus.
Lightning throw -> Deal damage to all opponents within range.
Manticore parry -> Redirect an attack against you to an adjacent target.
Mithral tornado -> As Adamantine hurricane.
Punishing stance -> Deal extra damage but get AC penalty.
Scything strike -> If your first attack hits, you gain another free attack.
Steel wind -> Make a single attack against two threatened opponents.
Steely strike -> Make a single attack with a bonus, but opponents other than target gain the same bonus to attack you.
Strike of perfect clarity -> Deal extra damage.
Supreme blade parry -> If armed and not flat footed, you gain DR.
Wall of blades -> Use an opposed attack instead of your AC.

STONE DRAGON
Adamantine bones -> If you hit, you get DR.
Ancient mountain hammer -> Extra damage and overcome DR and hardness.
Bonesplitting strike -> Deal Con damage.
Bonecrusher -> Extra damage and all check to confirm criticals on the target get a bonus.
Boulder roll -> When you overrun, you get Str bonus, cannot be knocked down and do not draw AoOs.
Charging minotaur -> Bullrush without drawing AoOs and deal damage.
Colossus strike -> Extra damage and target is rushed and tripped.
Crushing vise -> Extra damage and target cannot move.
Crushing weight of the mountain -> You can deal constrict damage.
Earthstrike quake -> Opponents within range fall prone and lose spells if casting.
Elder mountain hammer -> As Ancient mountain hammer.
Giant's stance -> You deal damage as one size larger if you do not move more than 5ft.
Iron bones -> As Adamantine bones.
Irresistible mountain strike -> Extra damage and target cannot take a standard action.
Mountain avalanche -> You can trample.
Mountain hammer -> As Ancient mountain hammer.
Mountain tombstone strike -> As Bonesplitting strike.
Overwhelming mountain strike -> Extra damage and target cannot take a move action.
Roots of the mountain -> You gain DR, a bonus to resist trip/bullrush/grapple/overrun and opponents get a penalty to cross your threatened area if you do not move more than 5ft.
Stone bones -> As Adamantine bones.
Stone dragon's fury -> Extra damage on construct or objects.
Stone vise -> As Crushing vise.
Stonefoot stance -> You gain Str and AC bonus against larger targets if you do not move more than 5ft.
Strenght of stone -> You are immune to criticals if you do not move more than 5ft.

Is anything missing?

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-05-01, 01:01 PM
I'm confused. Yes, psionics are more likely to be banned when ToB is banned; but I thought this project was proceeding under an assumption that psionics were allowed, anyway; at least where Diamond Mind stuff is concerned. Your OP does imply that.

Personally I quite prefer that not every caster be able to take this skill trick; that it be restricted to those who are either psionic or have taken some interesting cross-class ranks. (I could have gone further, I suppose, and recommended that the Concentration check itself be replaced with an Autohypnosis check ... :smallwink:)

Your project, of course. I just recommend being consistent about what your underlying assumptions are, and what your goals for flavor consistency are.

Excellent points. I admit, I have been vacillating on how close to core to keep this project, and the OP was written while favoring an "everything but ToB" stance while that post was written while favoring a "mostly-core" stance. Given that some of the Desert Wind feats rely on PHB2 material which is kinda-core-but-not-really, I think I'll change all the Diamond Mind stuff to Autohypnosis.

And don't worry about being critical of "my" project; this isn't just for me, and that kind of perspective is what I'm looking for.

StormingMarcus
2010-05-16, 04:27 AM
Is anyone still here?

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-05-16, 04:56 AM
I'm still here, but it's finals week; I should be back on track in about a week.

Melayl
2010-06-14, 02:24 PM
Just checking to see if the project is still alive...

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-06-14, 02:43 PM
Unfortunately, the project is indefinitely on hold right now. I'm DMing four PbP games and one PnP game at the moment and I'm playing in a few more, so I'm kinda D&D-ed out at the moment. I'll try to get back into it at some point, but I started this when I thought I'd have more time and motivation this summer than I ended up having.

The Corinthian
2010-07-27, 07:21 PM
I'm not as good with crunch as you, but I am really in favor of this project. Can I take over this thread to continue it while you're away?

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-27, 07:23 PM
I'm not as good with crunch as you, but I am really in favor of this project. Can I take over this thread to continue it while you're away?

Go right ahead; I really appreciate the help while I can't work on it.