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View Full Version : New Spell: Living Undead [3.5E]



Rin_Hunter
2010-04-08, 10:31 PM
Living Undead

Transmutation
Level: Clr 3, DrNec 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, XP
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: 1 Willing Corporeal Undead
Duration: Permanent (See text)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: None

This spell generates flesh and innards for an Undead creature, such as it had in life that do not interfere with its Undead body (such as a Mohrg's tongue). The Undead creature regains the Constitution score it had in life and looks like it did when it was alive in all respects. It is impossible to tell that the creature is Undead and not its original race while the spell is in effect except through the use of Detect Undead as it retains its Undead type. The Undead creature will also gain weight equal to how much flesh it gained (a fair amount for a Skeleton, while not as much for a Zombie, Ghoul or Wight).

The Undead now has the option to eat, sleep and breathe again, though these are still not required. The Undead now heals usual amount per night as though it was still alive.

If the Undead were never alive to begin with, then it gains a Constitution of 12. The Undead looks as close as possible to a living race, but there is a good chance that they will be recognised as an Undead under this spell. This spell only provides them a +10 modifier to Disguise checks if they attempt to pass as the living race they look most like.

As the Undead now has a Constitution score, it is now subject to critical hits, death effects, Constitution damage and drain, coup de grace, massive damage, disease, poison and Negative Levels.

If an Undead is damaged below half its maximum Hp (taking into account its possibly higher Constitution score), gets Negative Levels equal to its HD or if its Constitution reaches 0, the spell ends and it is revealed as an Undead creature. Constitution reaching 0 and Negative Levels equalling HD does not destroy the Undead instantly.

XP Cost: The target of this spell pays the XP cost, not the caster. This spell costs 10 x HD x Highest Mental Ability Score (Int/Wis/Cha) of the target.

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Comments?

The spell is level 2 and had no material component because of the amount of weaknesses the Undead gains compared with the benefits (higher Fort save, more Hp). It really is just for diguise and actually cripples its combat potential in my opinion, but I thought that it's something that can be useful and actually could be used for plot reasons stealth.

I felt it should be Transmutation rather than Necromancy, but I can't explain why~ :smallbiggrin: Feel free to comment on this and I may change it if I feel it should be Necromancy after your arguements~

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Originally posted this in the wrong subforum.

Added the loss of immunities to disease and poison and bumped it up a spell level in this reposting.

I do know about Spark of Life, which seems to be written from an Undead as Enemy point of view, where this spell is more Undead as Ally and was written with a high-Undead campaign setting in mind where they are not automatically Evil.

Milskidasith
2010-04-08, 10:36 PM
This is bad for undead, so... there's really no way to comment on balance. If I wanted to disguise a zombie, I'd just cast... whatever that spell is, that keeps a corpse from rotting. Zombies are pretty much normal, but slow and rotten... and that takes away the rotting part.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-08, 10:41 PM
This is bad for undead, so... there's really no way to comment on balance. If I wanted to disguise a zombie, I'd just cast... whatever that spell is, that keeps a corpse from rotting. Zombies are pretty much normal, but slow and rotten... and that takes away the rotting part.

This is written mostly for Lichs. They need their coffee too~

The idea behind it is so that they can live in society without the shopkeeper going "Eww..." when they walk in a door.

And it costs 150Gp (Maybe 180Gp) rather than 10x that amount for a Hat of Disguise if you can't cast it yourself.

JoshuaZ
2010-04-08, 10:44 PM
Having a con score and the like allows undead to get away with a lot of stuff they wouldn't be able to otherwise. This is very powerful for a 2nd level (in comparison I think the spell Disguise Undead which is an illusion spell which makes undead look living is I think 2nd level). I'd make this at least 3rd level for a non-permanent maybe 24 hour version and the permanent version be 4th or 5th level and take some xp too.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-08, 10:47 PM
Having a con score and the like allows undead to get away with a lot of stuff they wouldn't be able to otherwise. This is very powerful for a 2nd level (in comparison I think the spell Disguise Undead which is an illusion spell which makes undead look living is I think 2nd level). I'd make this at least 3rd level for a non-permanent maybe 24 hour version and the permanent version be 4th or 5th level and take some xp too.

Part of this was going to the local Church of Undeath and buying the spell if you are a standard undead. I chose not to have an XP Component because of how many times the Church Mages would have to cast this.

Would an expensive Material Component suffice? I mean, it's only 5Gp for 1XP, so if could work out.

And it is 3rd level now not 2nd~

JoshuaZ
2010-04-08, 11:21 PM
Part of this was going to the local Church of Undeath and buying the spell if you are a standard undead. I chose not to have an XP Component because of how many times the Church Mages would have to cast this.

Would an expensive Material Component suffice? I mean, it's only 5Gp for 1XP, so if could work out.

And it is 3rd level now not 2nd~

Eh maybe. I'm always a bit worried about permanent anything that doesn't have an xp cost. And the fact is that this is very useful. Undead can use it to qualify for all sorts of prestige classes and PrCs they couldn't otherwise among other fun things. It also seems too easy in that it removes the horrific element that there is for beings made undead unwillingly. Never again shall they feel warm. They shall not taste food or the sweetness of a kiss. This spell removes that completely when a single low level spell fixes most of that.

(Also completely separate but noteworthy issue: increasing the Dread Necromancer spell list is not a great idea. They have Advanced Learning already to take spells if they want. Increasing the list makes the class substantially more powerful (it is upper end of tier three so it isn't intrinsically bad but it could be problematic). Adding spells which also don't fit in with the general necromancy theme but have more specific purposes (like this one) also makes the DN less of a necromancer-who-can-specialize-a-bit into a grab bag. So it sort of changes the fluff).

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-08, 11:30 PM
Right, I understand where you are coming from with the whole becoming undead willingly is bad, but I'll state how this was made with a campaign where Undead are not automatically Evil in mind. You also have to remember that a lot of Undead are created through spells, not of their own willing choice, but the choice of someone else.

The permanent duration does have its limits, as described in the spell. Again, I get where you are coming from, but this was added so that non-casting Undead and Undead with no class levels can get it without huge costs.

What do you mean Tier 3 for the DN? Incedentally, I've modified many classes to be much more powerful because my players prefer high-power games, including this one (mostly the same, Lich at level 11 instead of 20, earlier Animating, but that should be left for a different thread). And I suppose this could be left to Advanced Learning as I see no reason against it other than them not wanting to look all dead at level 11/20.

JoshuaZ
2010-04-08, 11:39 PM
Right, I understand where you are coming from with the whole becoming undead willingly is bad, but I'll state how this was made with a campaign where Undead are not automatically Evil in mind. You also have to remember that a lot of Undead are created through spells, not of their own willing choice, but the choice of someone else.

Right. That's the point. They are created through spells or terrible curses and it sucks. That's part of the whole tragedy of the undead (although granted if it isn't done well it can get very emo). But this spell removes that.
This is really more a flavor/preference issue than anything else. So I suppose it is ignorable.



What do you mean Tier 3 for the DN?

The standard tier breakdown of classes by power level (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0). Generally, Tier 3 is considered just right by many.



Incedentally, I've modified many classes to be much more powerful because my players prefer high-power games, including this one (mostly the same, Lich at level 11 instead of 20, earlier Animating, but that should be left for a different thread). And I suppose this could be left to Advanced Learning as I see no reason against it other than them not wanting to look all dead at level 11/20.

It seems like you are playing a very modified game then so I'm not sure how much our input would be useful. That does at least give the DN a good reason not PrC out after level 8 which may be a good thing. I'd be very curious to hear in general what changes you've made for the DN in particular and other classes in general, but that maybe should be a separate thread.

Two other thoughts: This should be specified as for corporeal undead or you need rules for how it effects wraiths, shadows and the like. Also, what happens for undead that were never alive or who have bodies made from multiple living things?

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-08, 11:48 PM
It seems like you are playing a very modified game then so I'm not sure how much our input would be useful. That does at least give the DN a good reason not PrC out after level 8 which may be a good thing. I'd be very curious to hear in general what changes you've made for the DN in particular and other classes in general, but that maybe should be a separate thread.

Two other thoughts: This should be specified as for corporeal undead or you need rules for how it effects wraiths, shadows and the like. Also, what happens for undead that were never alive or who have bodies made from multiple living things?

I've never seen that Tier thing before and will be reading it now~

I do play a very modified game, but everything I've modified has been done over years with the help of my players. I actually had to remove a line about being subject to aimed shots again because standard rules don't use them.

I tried to bring the DN into full use and my players tend not to use PrCs anyway. The DN has become the only class used for Necromancy in my setting because it's just sensible.

I should post my setting when it's done... Hmm...

Back on Topic: I edited it to be about Corporeal Undead. Thanks for pointing that out. I completely forgot that there are undead that don't come from bodies. That's what happens when you control an army of skeletons most of the time. :smalltongue: But I suppose it would have no effect or they would look human or the closest possible race... Suggestions?

JoshuaZ
2010-04-08, 11:58 PM
Back on Topic: I edited it to be about Corporeal Undead. Thanks for pointing that out. I completely forgot that there are undead that don't come from bodies. That's what happens when you control an army of skeletons most of the time. :smalltongue:

I personally like armies of skeletons but am practical enough that I'll use shadows and wraiths when I can. The whole immune to non-magical weapons thing makes them pretty helpful.


Only last issue seems that there should probably be a line about how if a creature doesn't come from a single living being (such as an Euralden Eye or any of those big worm creatures in the Fiend Folio) that it should just get some fixed con score. Maybe 10? Or if you want this to benefit them, maybe make it fixed at 12 in those cases? Not sure.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-09, 12:02 AM
I personally like armies of skeletons but am practical enough that I'll use shadows and wraiths when I can. The whole immune to non-magical weapons thing makes them pretty helpful.


Only last issue seems that there should probably be a line about how if a creature doesn't come from a single living being (such as an Euralden Eye or any of those big worm creatures in the Fiend Folio) that it should just get some fixed con score. Maybe 10? Or if you want this to benefit them, maybe make it fixed at 12 in those cases? Not sure.

I'll fix it at 12, I think. These creatures don't really pop up in my setting often, so it shouldn't be that much of a problem to do that. Hey, I don't think it would be much of a problem in other settings either.

As a side note: I've read the full first post of the Tier thing and I'd definitely say that my DN has been bumped up to Tier 2, at least.

Edit: Third paragraph of the spell description. Thought it was appropriate~

Ashtagon
2010-04-09, 12:43 AM
I'd bring back the xp cost... but the xp cost should be paid by the creature that receives the spell, which not necessarily the caster.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-09, 12:51 AM
I'd bring back the xp cost... but the xp cost should be paid by the creature that receives the spell, which not necessarily the caster.

I did think of that, but I wasn't sure.

The real question is how much XP.

Trekkin
2010-04-09, 12:58 AM
If you want it to be used on armies, not much (and frankly it would be amazing to see an entire army/ guard group suddenly show themselves to be undead at the snap of a necromancer's finger). Perhaps the 15 normally used for Psionic Contingency, if any? If you intend it to be used as a remedy for the ostracism normally experienced by undead, it should have a higher cost.

Perhaps it shouldn't have an XP cost for a number of days equal to the caster level, and then a very low daily cost from then on.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-09, 01:03 AM
If you want it to be used on armies, not much (and frankly it would be amazing to see an entire army/ guard group suddenly show themselves to be undead at the snap of a necromancer's finger). Perhaps the 15 normally used for Psionic Contingency, if any? If you intend it to be used as a remedy for the ostracism normally experienced by undead, it should have a higher cost.

Perhaps it shouldn't have an XP cost for a number of days equal to the caster level, and then a very low daily cost from then on.

I don't think a condititional XP cost would work too well.

Explain your second paragraph please... Not sure I understand daily cost thing.

Ashtagon
2010-04-09, 01:45 AM
XP Cost: 10 x Hit Dice x Intelligence score of the target of the spell, paid for by the target of the spell.

Also, I'd consider making the default Constitution score 10, not 12. That way, you avoid having to immediately modify hit point totals.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-09, 01:48 AM
XP Cost: 10 x Hit Dice x Intelligence score of the target of the spell, paid for by the target of the spell.

Meaning a Sorcerer Lich pays about 1100 XP and the Wizard Lich pays anywhere from 1800 XP and up, depending on optimisation.

I think that's pretty good actually.

Edit: The whole point of the 12 was to allow those who weren't living in the first place to actually benefit from this spell.

Ashtagon
2010-04-09, 02:06 AM
Just noticed you edited in that XP cost as "Intelligence modifier", not "Intelligence score". the two are very different.

Also, thinking about it more, I'd probably replace "Intelligence" with "highest mental ability score (Int/Wis/Cha)", to avoid giving clerics and sorcerers a free ride. The main purpose of it though was to create a sliding scale.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-09, 02:12 AM
Just noticed you edited in that XP cost as "Intelligence modifier", not "Intelligence score". the two are very different.

Also, thinking about it more, I'd probably replace "Intelligence" with "highest mental ability score (Int/Wis/Cha)", to avoid giving clerics and sorcerers a free ride. The main purpose of it though was to create a sliding scale.

Didn't mean to type modifier instead of score. Thanks for pointing that out.

And changed it, thought I think that Mindless Undead should actually have to pay the XP cost since they don't gain XP...

Lysander
2010-04-09, 08:30 AM
I think its a little bit powerful right now, mainly because its very open ended. There are so many kinds of undead creatures out there, I'm sure there's some way of abusing Greater Create Undead and this spell to give people special undead monster abilities while changing very little else about themselves and with no LA.

Perhaps this spell could instead work like a version of resurrection that transforms an undead creature into a necropolitan instead of bring them back to true life? That way you can keep the flavor, but get rid of any random supernatural abilities that could be problematic.

Jack of Spades
2010-04-09, 09:28 AM
It also seems too easy in that it removes the horrific element that there is for beings made undead unwillingly. Never again shall they feel warm. They shall not taste food or the sweetness of a kiss. This spell removes that completely when a single low level spell fixes most of that.

With that in mind, I had a random idea: a lich/necromancer/other commander of armies of undead who keeps morale/loyalty up by allowing the troops to occasionally experience a few days of blessed, very real seeming life.

Also, my immediate thought was that you could use this to heal your armies effectively, giving them life just long enough to naturally heal, then throwing them back into battle the moment they start stinking again.

All in all, I personally think the spell in its current form is a good one, just because of its myriad of uses (such as those pointed out all over this thread).

JoshuaZ
2010-04-09, 01:56 PM
I like the spell as it currently stands although I'm not sure I'd put it in my games. Seems balanced overall at this point. I'm actually more curious what exactly you've done to the DN to bump to bump it up a tier (although the lich at 11 probably goes a long way in that direction).

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-10, 05:04 AM
Lysander: Where possible, we use the Undead Monster Classes from the Libris Mortis, meaning that despite being as they originally were, they are still forced through another 7+ levels of a class before they can get any good abilities and actually continue with their old class. They still also have to deal with their Diet Dependancies and Inescapable Cravings, so the Vampire or Ghoul that uses this is still going to have to be careful about where and what they eat.

Jack of Spades: This does have many uses for an army.

JoshuaZ: I'll post my version soon enough, but like I've said, way earlier Animating (as a spell-like ability, which you may consider over-power but it's just right for my games) and earlier Lich transformation. Positive Energy Resistance and a bump to the Lich's Damage Reduction are also in the later levels.

All: I was thinking of adding that Mindless Undead, such as Skeletons, don't need to pay the XP cost since they don't actually gain XP. That all changes if they are Awakened, but no XP Cost for the Mindless. What do you think?