Solution to the 15 minute worday (3.5/PF)

[Apalala]

I'm in a dungeon crawling campaign right now, and it's a lot of fun. Lots and lots. However, the party lacks a wand of CLW and the casters burn themselves out fast, so the party is constantly having to stop and stay in place for 8 hours.

So, I was thinking of something to help alleviate that. Healing Surges, though not the kind from 4e per se.

All characters start out with 5+1/2HD surges per day, and regain them all at the end of an 8 hour rest. When a character receives healing, they can spend a healing surge to regain an extra 1/4 of their hp, rounded down. However, if a character is out of healing surges, then they cannot raise their hp past 1/2 their maximum. Additionally, after a short rest of ten minutes or so, they can spend a healing surge to gain any of the following benefits:

1. Regain all lost hp.
2. Regain all uses of daily abilities like Rage or Smite.
3. Regain one spell or slot from the highest level known, half (rounded down) from the second highest level, and all below that. So, a level 10 wizard would regain one 5th level spell, half his 4th level, and every spell below that.

Thoughts? Not too sure on the number of surges, but everything else seems pretty good to me. You couldn't adventure forever, but at least you could spend more than a few encounters going strong. Not to mention it makes the wand of CLW not such a staple.

[StormingMarcus]

However, if a character is out of healing surges, then they cannot raise their hp past 1/2 their maximum. Maybe too harsh. If the goal of HS is to avoid cleric-dependance, with this rule you are failing.

I would tie Constitution and the number of HS, like 4+1/2 level+Con Mod.

[Zeta Kai]

All characters start out with 5+1/2HD surges per day, and regain them all at the end of an 8 hour rest.

Well, let's see what that gets us:

{table]Character Level|Surges
1|5
2|6
3|6
4|7
5|7
6|8
7|8
8|9
9|9
10|10
11|10
12|11
13|11
14|12
15|12
16|13
17|13
18|14
19|14
20|15
[/table]
The numbers seem pretty high across the board. In the early levels, the PCs can rely on HS for most of their recovery needs, greatly reducing the difficulty of the game (which the DM would likely compensate for, which would lead to either TPKs or faster level growth & shorter campaigns). In the later levels, the PCs have so many HS that they can use them after every battle & even during a battle.

The thing is, the 15-minute-day doesn't come into play until the mid-levels. It only arises when the PCs (& by PCs, I mean wizards) can reliably control the flow of the game, via spells that allow them to prevent encounters before they start. Rope trick is merely the first & most crude of these, I'm talking fly, dimension door, teleport, overland flight, etc. These spells circumvent the traditional ways in which DMs typically start encounters, & thereby how DMs control the flow of the game. Prior to the acquisition of these spells, the PCs are at the mercy of the DM's whims.

These healing surges don't really change that much. At low levels, the adventuring day is still as long as the DM wants it to be, & at higher levels, the PCs will probably still want to hold out for their highest-level spells. Plus, at the highest levels, your basically giving the PCs a lot more ammo to throw at their opponents, which tips the odds greatly in their favor at no cost.

Just a few things to think about.

[Apalala]

Ah, you're right. The number of surges at the higher levels is way too inflated.

Maybe 7+CON would be better.

In any case, the main idea of the surges would be to encourage a party to keep moving forward without resting.

My party is level 6, and we're definitely feeling the 15 minute workday already. The thing is, this would allow a DM to throw MORE things at the party, rather than 1. going all out and wiping the party out when their resources are exhausted or 2. holding back and letting the party take constant breaks during a dungeon crawl.

[Zeta Kai]

Maybe 7+CON would be better.

That's even worse; 7 is significantly more than what you had for low levels in the first scheme, & everybody takes Constitution anyway. How about 3 + your Charisma bonus? That has a certain rationale: your force of personality drives you to keep going.

[Apalala]

That's even worse; 7 is significantly more than what you had for low levels in the first scheme, & everybody takes Constitution anyway. How about 3 + your Charisma bonus? That has a certain rationale: your force of personality drives you to keep going.

The problem with tying it to ANY stat is that it inflates the value of that stat by a lot. Charisma would make bards and sorcerers a lot better. Strength would boost...fighters...rangers...hmm...

Strength might work.

But really, the best would probably be 8. Flat out 8, from 1 to 20. 8 points to keep track of, for healing and resting. Enough that you can push through a bunch of encounters in one day, few enough that healing during battle is both effective but risky.

[sigurd]

So you're reworking the system rather than buy a wand of CLW?

[Ashtagon]

The 15-minute workday problem isn't running out of healing (ie. fixable by healing surges). It is the wizard running out of his top-level spells.

[Oslecamo]

The thing is, the 15-minute-day doesn't come into play until the mid-levels. It only arises when the PCs (& by PCs, I mean wizards) can reliably control the flow of the game, via spells that allow them to prevent encounters before they start. Rope trick is merely the first & most crude of these, I'm talking fly, dimension door, teleport, overland flight, etc. These spells circumvent the traditional ways in which DMs typically start encounters, & thereby how DMs control the flow of the game. Prior to the acquisition of these spells, the PCs are at the mercy of the DM's whims.


Pfft, that's just if the DM is going easy on the party. You just need some creativity to keep them always on their toes. So the wizard's flying? Oh, look, monsters with wings and that feat to give perfect maneuverability. Hide in rope trick? Ok, who goes out first in the morning? Well, roll iniative against those monsters with see invisibility laying in ambush.

Basically, it's the DM's duty to keep the optimization of the monsters on par with the optimization of the party. Casters aren't the only ones with cool tricks after all.

[Lord Loss]

Pfft, that's just if the DM is going easy on the party. You just need some creativity to keep them always on their toes. So the wizard's flying? Oh, look, monsters with wings and that feat to give perfect maneuverability. Hide in rope trick? Ok, who goes out first in the morning? Well, roll iniative against those monsters with see invisibility laying in ambush.

Basically, it's the DM's duty to keep the optimization of the monsters on par with the optimization of the party. Casters aren't the only ones with cool tricks after all.

No, it's not. Wizards become so strong that the only solutions to wizards become more powerful ones (or PUNPUN) , who destroy them in instants. Combat is no longer challenging, but simply routine, like spring cleaning. Monsters that would challenge the PCs become either AHNILLATE or Oh, let's teleport.

And non-casters become so weak compared to their Wizard (or just even caster) bretheren, that they could sit around sleeping the whole while and the outcome of the fight wouldn't change a single bit. By the time the fighter deals 20 damage the wizard just brout an end to the whole friggen army of enemies before you.

D&D stops being a challenging, fun game and becomes a Powergamer Heaven or a political intrigue. Now, I'm not even going to get into what happens when the PCs decide they're taking over the world.

[Oslecamo]

No, it's not. Wizards become so strong that the only solutions to wizards become more powerful ones (or PUNPUN) , who destroy them in instants. Combat is no longer challenging, but simply routine, like spring cleaning. Monsters that would challenge the PCs become either AHNILLATE or Oh, let's teleport.

Completely no need for that. The game is only as rocket tag as you want it to be. Defensive abilities are key here, making sure the wizard needs several turns and spells to get the job done, all the while the monsters are raining anti-magic abilities like dispel magic and dimensional anchor. Sure, I can pimp up a dragon's breath so it one shots the whole party, but where's the fun on that?



And non-casters become so weak compared to their Wizard (or just even caster) bretheren, that they could sit around sleeping the whole while and the outcome of the fight wouldn't change a single bit. By the time the fighter deals 20 damage the wizard just brout an end to the whole friggen army of enemies before you.

Again, here's when the creativity part comes in. The monsters can be optimized to having teleport, are immune to mind control, ability damage/drain, have freedom of movement-like effects, fly, SR, high saves, etc, but you left them vulnerable to pointy sticks, so the wizard now needs the meatshield's help to cleave trough them!



D&D stops being a challenging, fun game and becomes a Powergamer Heaven or a political intrigue. Now, I'm not even going to get into what happens when the PCs decide they're taking over the world.

You pull out your super optimized monsters notes and start laughing maniacally? :smalltongue:

I've seen some campaigns indeed go to "Ok, screw this, we're gonna go after the GODS themselves!", and everybody enjoyed it, with the DM keeping a tight leash on epic magic for both sides.

Basically, powergamer heaven can be fun and challenging, just like the Test of Spite thread shows. You just forbid the really silly stuff like infinite loops, and test your abilities against the players.

Plus you're the DM. It's your ability and duty to just say NO! when you feel like a player is pushing it too far. Either in private conversations with the players or special abilities. No, you can't scry the BBEG's fortress with magic. No, to diplomacy skill alone won't make the king recognize you as his god.

[Zeta Kai]

The 15-minute workday problem isn't running out of healing (ie. fixable by healing surges). It is the wizard running out of his top-level spells.

Not quite. It's a combination of this & one other important thing: the PCs (again, here I mean the Wizard) controlling the pace of the game. Any definition that leaves that out is patently false.

At level 1, when the party runs out of good spells, they usually don't just sit down & wait for the morning. The DM can keep them going with the power of plot & effective encounter pacing. Events like ambushes, night attacks, circumstantial urgency, travel obstacles, etc often dictate when & if the party can end the day on their terms.

Later on, the party (IE the Wizard) can circumvent the plot & the pacing, taking the flow of the game into their own hands. Little by little, a properly-prepared full-caster can prevent many of the things that DMs normally use to keep the party going, once their out of nova-level spells (in 1 or 2 battles), they'll just rope trick their way to safety, sitting out the story until the morning.

So, yes, the problem starts with the casters running out of their top spells. But that is only half of the equation.

[Jolly Steve]

Wouldn't this just turn the 15-minute work day into a 45-minute work day (or whatever number)? It seems as if the PCs could still go until they're low on resources, then rest and recharge. The only difference would be that that point would arrive later.

In my 3.5 game I suggested two solutions:

i) frequent wandering monsters.

ii) staying overnight in a dungeon carries the risk of infection.

The other players didn't like the idea...but frankly, that might have been because it was an effective suggestion :smallsmile:




I'm in a dungeon crawling campaign right now, and it's a lot of fun. Lots and lots. However, the party lacks a wand of CLW and the casters burn themselves out fast, so the party is constantly having to stop and stay in place for 8 hours.

So, I was thinking of something to help alleviate that. Healing Surges, though not the kind from 4e per se.

All characters start out with 5+1/2HD surges per day, and regain them all at the end of an 8 hour rest. When a character receives healing, they can spend a healing surge to regain an extra 1/4 of their hp, rounded down. However, if a character is out of healing surges, then they cannot raise their hp past 1/2 their maximum. Additionally, after a short rest of ten minutes or so, they can spend a healing surge to gain any of the following benefits:

1. Regain all lost hp.
2. Regain all uses of daily abilities like Rage or Smite.
3. Regain one spell or slot from the highest level known, half (rounded down) from the second highest level, and all below that. So, a level 10 wizard would regain one 5th level spell, half his 4th level, and every spell below that.

Thoughts? Not too sure on the number of surges, but everything else seems pretty good to me. You couldn't adventure forever, but at least you could spend more than a few encounters going strong. Not to mention it makes the wand of CLW not such a staple.

[Milskidasith]

Wouldn't this just turn the 15-minute work day into a 45-minute work day (or whatever number)? It seems as if the PCs could still go until they're low on resources, then rest and recharge. The only difference would be that that point would arrive later.

In my 3.5 game I suggested two solutions:

i) frequent wandering monsters.

ii) staying overnight in a dungeon carries the risk of infection.

The other players didn't like the idea...but frankly, that might have been because it was an effective suggestion :smallsmile:

Neither of those are threats. Disease is, what, a horribly easy fortitude save, incubates for multiple days before it can hit you, and then does incredibly low amount of ability damage? It's a nonthreat for a reason, even if you aren't immune/capable of casting cure disease or some form of restoration like most parties are.

Wandering monsters: See Rope Trick.

All either of those do is make the game more tedious; deciding "let's randomly roll fort saves" when you're trying to get to the BBEG is a PitA, especially since it won't even affect you until days after the adventure is over, and wandering monsters just means that the plot is slowed down.

In fact, wondering monsters encourages short workdays even more. You may have the same number of encounters before you rope trick to regain spells, but more of them will be pointless encounters that don't advance the plot.

[Apalala]

When I talk about the 15 minute workday, I don't mean in in a PCs vs DM sort of way, when the DM wants the party to keep moving forward but the PCs stubbornly retreat.

I mean it in the frustrating sense that the PCs run into a tough encounter, nearly die, and use up nearly all of their resources just surviving. And they've only taken a few steps into the dungeon. At that point, moving forward is suicide or up to the DM to put on kiddie gloves.

This would alleviate things, give PCs a chance to do more things in a day than otherwise. Maybe not so necessary in the higher levels of the game, but then, I've never really been a fan of high level 3.5.