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Rin_Hunter
2010-04-11, 03:34 PM
Another class that I have modified. I feel that this irons out a lot of problems with this class, including "Two-level dip syndrome".

This may be a bit more powerful than you are used to, but fits into my own setting quite well.


Fighter

Hit Dice: d10
Skills (2+Int mod): Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha),
Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), Swim (Str)
Weapons: All simple and martial
Armour: Heavy and all shields

Lv BAB F R W Special
01 +1 +2 +0 +0 Weapon Choice
02 +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus Feat
03 +3 +3 +1 +1 Weapon Specialisation
04 +4 +4 +1 +1 Bonus Feat
05 +5 +4 +1 +1 Greater Weapon Focus
06 +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat
07 +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Greater Weapon Specialisation
08 +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Bonus Feat
09 +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Improved Critical
10 +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Bonus Feat
11 +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Weapon Enhancement +1
12 +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Bonus Feat
13 +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Weapon Enhancement +2
14 +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Bonus Feat
15 +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Weapon Enhancement +3
16 +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Bonus Feat
17 +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Weapon Enhancement +4
18 +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Bonus Feat
19 +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Weapon Enhancement +5
20 +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Bonus Feat

Weapon Choice: At first level a Fighter chooses a weapon to focus his
training on. He gains Weapon Focus with this weapon.

Weapon Specialisation: At third level a Fighter gains this as a bonus
feat with his weapon choice.

Greater Weapon Focus: At fifth level a Fighter gains this as a bonus
feat with his weapon choice.

Greater Weapon Specialisation: At seventh level a Fighter gains this as
a bonus feat with his weapon choice.

Improved Critical: At ninth level a Fighter gains this as a bonus feat
with his weapon choice.

Weapon Enchancement (Su): At 11th level a Fighter holding his weapon
choice is able to weild it with more talent. The weapon is treated as
having a +1 enhancement bonus provided that it is Masterwork quality.
If the weapon has a higher enhancement bonus, use the weapons's
bonus instead. This ability improves at every even level to a maximum
of +5 at level 20.

Epic Advancement
Lv Attack Save Special
21 +1 +0 Weapon Enhancement +6
22 +1 +1 Bonus Feat
23 +2 +1
24 +2 +2 Bonus Feat
25 +3 +2
26 +3 +3 Bonus Feat, Weapon Enhancement +7
27 +4 +3
28 +4 +4 Bonus Feat
29 +5 +4
30 +5 +5 Bonus Feat

Even levels Bonus Feat
Ends in 1, 6 Weapon Enhancement

Kuma Kode
2010-04-11, 03:43 PM
Seems okay, though I'm not sure Weapon Enhancement would ever really come into play. It definitely fixes the annoying dead levels the fighter has.

Improved Critical should indicate it's acquired at ninth level, not third level like you have it. Delicious copypasta error.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-11, 03:46 PM
Seems okay, though I'm not sure Weapon Enhancement would ever really come into play. It definitely fixes the annoying dead levels the fighter has.

Improved Critical should indicate it's acquired at ninth level, not third level like you have it. Delicious copypasta error.

Thanks for noticing the mistake there~

The weapon enhancement came to mind if a Fighter wants to get a +1 weapon and spend his money on getting things like Ghost touch or Flaming on it without worrying that his attack and damage would suffer a little.

It also allows him to carry a backup of his favourite weapon in case he is disarmed.

It may not be the most useful thing, but there are times it could be used.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-04-11, 04:07 PM
I'd suggest that the Weapon Enhancement can be used to act like the Soulknife's Mindblade Enhancement (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/psionicSoulknife.html) ability (letting you add a selection of weapon special abilities (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/magicItemsAW.html#weapon-special-abilities) up to the value of your allowed enhancement bonus).

Otherwise "+1 to my favourite weapon" just isn't very interesting at 11th level.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-11, 04:13 PM
I'd suggest that the Weapon Enhancement can be used to act like the Soulknife's Mindblade Enhancement (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/psionicSoulknife.html) ability (letting you add a selection of weapon special abilities (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/magicItemsAW.html#weapon-special-abilities) up to the value of your allowed enhancement bonus).

Otherwise "+1 to my favourite weapon" just isn't very interesting at 11th level.

I get what you are saying, but I'm not sure about that. This ability represents the Fighter getting a lot of practice with the chosen weapon, thus gaining better accuracy and ability to deal damage.

I wanted to avoid giving the Fighter any actual magical powers, like giving the weapon fire damage or the like.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-04-11, 04:20 PM
I get what you are saying, but I'm not sure about that. This ability represents the Fighter getting a lot of practice with the chosen weapon, thus gaining better accuracy and ability to deal damage.

I wanted to avoid giving the Fighter any actual magical powers, like giving the weapon fire damage or the like.
Yeah, and as I posted, I was thinking about that too...

Maybe if you made list of equivalent powered effects that your fighter can apply, that steers clear of clearly magical enhancements?
For example, you could allow these: Defending Distance Ghost Touch (maybe) Keen Merciful Mighty Cleaving Speed Throwing Vorpal Wounding

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-11, 04:25 PM
Yeah, and as I posted, I was thinking about that too...

Maybe if you made list of equivalent powered effects that your fighter can apply, that steers clear of clearly magical enhancements?
For example, you could allow these: Defending Distance Ghost Touch (maybe) Keen Merciful Mighty Cleaving Speed Throwing Vorpal Wounding

Hmm... That sounds reasonable, actually. That does seem like quite a short list though. Can you think of any others? I'll be looking through my books and I'll post a list of ones that I would let on the list.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-04-11, 04:33 PM
How about these from the Psionics section (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/psionicItemsAW.)? Collision Coup de Grace Parrying Sundering
There must be loads more in the hundreds of splatbooks out there.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-11, 04:44 PM
+1 = Defending, Keen, Merciful, Mighty Cleaving, Throwing, Distance, Chargebreaker, Charging, Sundering, Sweeping
+2 = Wounding, Collision, Disarming, Stunning
+3 = Speed
+5 = Vorpal, Coup de Grace

That is what I have so far, including your suggestions. Can't find anything for +4 though. A lot are from the Magic Item Compendium.

Kyuu Himura
2010-04-11, 04:45 PM
This is a little thing I give Samurai in my campaign...
The weapon gets a +1 enhancement bonus every 4 levels (+1 at 4th, +2 at 8th...) and every time you hit one of those levels. You also get a Special Enchantment Pool (Su), this pool contains (as its name implies) a few sepcial abilities for your weapon, which you can activate as a swift action, and remain active a number of rounds equal to your class level. You may learn one ability at every level in the one your enhancement bonus improves (4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th) and one more the any level immediately after one of those (5th, 9th, 13th, 17th). You may activate as many properties as 1/3 your level.

Also, to the list of not-so-clearly-magical abilities, how about adding bane, you know, it's not magic if you just really don't like undead or outsiders :smallwink:

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-11, 04:50 PM
This is a little thing I give Samurai in my campaign...
The weapon gets a +1 enhancement bonus every 4 levels (+1 at 4th, +2 at 8th...) and every time you hit one of those levels. You also get a Special Enchantment Pool (Su), this pool contains (as its name implies) a few sepcial abilities for your weapon, which you can activate as a swift action, and remain active a number of rounds equal to your class level. You may learn one ability at every level in the one your enhancement bonus improves (4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th) and one more the any level immediately after one of those (5th, 9th, 13th, 17th). You may activate as many properties as 1/3 your level.

Also, to the list of not-so-clearly-magical abilities, how about adding bane, you know, it's not magic if you just really don't like undead or outsiders :smallwink:

I did consider Bane actually. Just wasn't sure about it.

I do like your Enchantment Pool idea, but it clashes with a lot of what the Fighter gets at low levels and generates dead levels above level 10.

Lysander
2010-04-11, 06:31 PM
I actually like this a whole lot! That exclamation point was called for because I just like it so damn much.

I like the class keeping a strictly non-magical feel. So I don't want them to magically reassign points between the enhancement bonus and special weapon qualities. To make it plausible say that when the weapon is used normally they can apply their full skill and talent. When they apply a special quality its an additional challenge, so they use the weapon less efficiently and thus are denied a certain bonus depending on how hard the trick they're using is to pull off.

How about letting them learn one new weapon trick of their choice (chosen from that list of plausibly non-magical tricks) with each level that grants them an enhancement bonus. So they would learn five tricks total by level 19. At the beginning of their turn as a free action they can choose to use any one trick they know, deducting 1-5 from their personal enhancement bonus depending on the cost of the trick.

When using a magical weapon they can use the weapon's enhancement bonus instead of their own, which basically lets them apply one special quality to their attacks each round for free.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-11, 06:34 PM
I actually like this a whole lot! That exclamation point was called for because I just like it so damn much.

I like the class keeping a strictly non-magical feel. So I don't want them to magically reassign points between the enhancement bonus and special weapon qualities. To make it plausible say that when the weapon is used normally they can apply their full skill and talent. When they apply a special quality its an additional challenge, so they use the weapon less efficiently and thus are denied a certain bonus depending on how hard the trick they're using is to pull off.

How about letting them learn one new weapon trick of their choice (chosen from that list of plausibly non-magical tricks) with each level that grants them an enhancement bonus. So they would learn five tricks total by level 19. At the beginning of their turn as a free action they can choose to use any one trick they know, deducting 1-5 from their personal enhancement bonus depending on the cost of the trick.

When using a magical weapon they can use the weapon's enhancement bonus instead of their own, which basically lets them apply one special quality to their attacks each round for free.

I think we should use your suggestion. Makes sense.

Lysander
2010-04-11, 08:24 PM
How about as +4 qualities add the "meditation" based abilities of ghost touch and align weapon (only one non-neutral axis of your own alignment)

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-11, 08:25 PM
How about as +4 qualities add the "meditation" based abilities of ghost touch and align weapon (only one non-neutral axis of your own alignment)

I'm not sure about those because they stray into more magical territory...

Lysander
2010-04-11, 08:34 PM
I'm not sure about those because they stray into more magical territory...

Good point. I guess it doesn't really need +4 options.

draco_nite
2010-04-11, 08:35 PM
Have you looked at the Pathfinder changes to fighters? You could get a few ideas from that.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-11, 08:40 PM
Have you looked at the Pathfinder changes to fighters? You could get a few ideas from that.

I've seen it mentioned a few times, but I have no idea what it is.

Glimbur
2010-04-11, 08:43 PM
Here. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/basic-classes/fighter)

My first impression is they get some cute but minor bonuses; a medium will save, small bonuses to hit and damage with a weapon group, less ACP, some DR at level 19, and a passive buff capstone.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-11, 08:46 PM
Here. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/basic-classes/fighter)

My first impression is they get some cute but minor bonuses; a medium will save, small bonuses to hit and damage with a weapon group, less ACP, some DR at level 19, and a passive buff capstone.

I'm a little busy right now to read through it all, but thanks for that link~

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-11, 09:07 PM
Honestly, I'm not impressed. All this does is give the fighter more numbers, which is the most thing he needs the least of. The Weapon Focus/Spec tree is among the weaker of the fighter's options, the enchantments come too late, and it's still lacking the skills and skill points it needs.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-11, 09:08 PM
Honestly, I'm not impressed. All this does is give the fighter more numbers, which is the most thing he needs the least of. The Weapon Focus/Spec tree is among the weaker of the fighter's options, the enchantments come too late, and it's still lacking the skills and skill points it needs.

It's just a general boost to the Fighter to make it playable a little more.

It isn't meant to be impressive.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-11, 09:14 PM
It's just a general boost to the Fighter to make it playable a little more.

It isn't meant to be impressive.

Well, you said in the OP that this is meant to fix "a lot of problems" with the fighter, so I took it that way; if it's just supposed to be a bunch of perks for someone who took fighter more than 2 levels, I guess it works well enough.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-11, 09:17 PM
Well, you said in the OP that this is meant to fix "a lot of problems" with the fighter, so I took it that way; if it's just supposed to be a bunch of perks for someone who took fighter more than 2 levels, I guess it works well enough.

Well, 9 dead levels in a class with no other perks is a big problem to me, so I fixed that. And I feel that giving the weapon focus tree for free opened up more options for the bonus feats.

And I feel that single classes fighter could benefit from this over the standard version.

Gnomo
2010-04-11, 09:19 PM
I pondered for two years on what would be the best fighter improvements,I pretty much look on everything, and started with a very, very similar layout than yours, it was slightly different:

At 1st level Weapon Focus with all weapons in which the fighter is proficient.
At 3rd level Weapon Specialization with all weapons in which the fighter is proficient.
At 5th level a +1 competence bonus to armor class and saves while wearing armor or shield.
At 7th level Greater Weapon Focus with all weapons in which the fighter is proficient.
At 9th level Greater Weapon Specialization with all weapons in which the fighter is proficient.
At 11th level a +2 competence bonus to armor class and saves while wearing armor or shield.
At 13rd level a +1 competence bonus to all attacks.
At 15th level a +2 competence bonus to all damage rolls
At 17th level a +3 competence bonus to armor class and saves while wearing armor or shield.
At 19th level pounce.
At 20th level you can replace any feat you know for another one you qualify, by training for one hour, as long as the replaced feat is not a prerequisite for something you have or a class you have levels in.

At the moment, I am using a different approach, and it's much more simpler, i just give the Fighter a bonus feat every class level, and 4 + Int modifier skill points per level. It turned out to be the best fighter fix I have used until now.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-11, 09:21 PM
Well, 9 dead levels in a class with no other perks is a big problem to me, so I fixed that. And I feel that giving the weapon focus tree for free opened up more options for the bonus feats.

And I feel that single classes fighter could benefit from this over the standard version.

The single class fighter benefits from any additions, really, but the WF/WS isn't exactly a go-to feat chain. If fighters in your group always take it, by all means give it to them, just be aware that very few fighters fill their slots with the WF/WS tree unless they have no other options.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-11, 09:26 PM
Gnomo: Despite my unexplainable hatred and genocide of the gnomish people, pounce at 19th level just redeemed you. :smallbiggrin: At any rate, I do like what you have there, especially the lv19 and lv20 abilities.

PairO'Dice Lost: I just thought "What will help the Fighter do his job?" and went from there. Make some suggestions for improvements if you want to help rather than critique what you think is bad.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-11, 10:02 PM
PairO'Dice Lost: I just thought "What will help the Fighter do his job?" and went from there. Make some suggestions for improvements if you want to help rather than critique what you think is bad.

Okay then.

Starting to get plusses to weapons at 11th level is too little, too late. If you want them to actually matter over normal magic weapons, let the fighter add 1/2 his level in plusses, so he gets a +1 at level 2, +2 at level 4, etc. in any legal mix of enhancements and abilities.
Expand the skill list substantially, adding at least Spot and Listen and a few more, and give it 4+Int skill points. The exact skills are up to you--whether in several packages or "pick any X skills" or whatever--but more is better.
Most feats aren't worth the paper they're printed on and serve only as prerequisites. Let the fighter pick up feats earlier than normal, by letting them gain virtual BAB or ignore some prerequisites or the like.
Let the fighter pick up useful combat abilities that aren't feats. Evasion, pounce, mettle, uncanny dodge, DR/resistances, and similar are all things a low-level fighter should be able to pick up, with improved versions of those and/or better abilities available at higher levels. The rogue's special ability list is a good model for this.
More actions are better. The fighter is mostly stuck full-attacking to function in combat, so giving him abilities usable as swift/immediate actions to let him do new things and/or extra standard and move actions to let him use existing options and still full attack would be good.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-11, 10:05 PM
Okay then.

Starting to get plusses to weapons at 11th level is too little, too late. If you want them to actually matter over normal magic weapons, let the fighter add 1/2 his level in plusses, so he gets a +1 at level 2, +2 at level 4, etc. in any legal mix of enhancements and abilities.
Expand the skill list substantially, adding at least Spot and Listen and a few more, and give it 4+Int skill points. The exact skills are up to you--whether in several packages or "pick any X skills" or whatever--but more is better.
Most feats aren't worth the paper they're printed on and serve only as prerequisites. Let the fighter pick up feats earlier than normal, by letting them gain virtual BAB or ignore some prerequisites or the like.
Let the fighter pick up useful combat abilities that aren't feats. Evasion, pounce, mettle, uncanny dodge, DR/resistances, and similar are all things a low-level fighter should be able to pick up, with improved versions of those and/or better abilities available at higher levels. The rogue's special ability list is a good model for this.
More actions are better. The fighter is mostly stuck full-attacking to function in combat, so giving him abilities usable as swift/immediate actions to let him do new things and/or extra standard and move actions to let him use existing options and still full attack would be good.

That's a lot to consider and I'll look it over when I'm less busy. Thanks for all that. :smallsmile:

Lysander
2010-04-11, 10:30 PM
Here's a radical idea. Scrap fighter bonus feats entirely. Replace with a list of custom special abilities like the rogue has.

Instead give them the ability to train by exchanging a certain amount of xp in order to permanently learn a fighter bonus feat. They'd be able to train themselves to learn a maximum of one fighter feat per level. Each subsequent feat would cost more xp than the one before. Fighters could choose whether to level up faster, or slow down their progress to pick up more feats along the way.

What's nice about this is that fighter bonus feats instead become a logical choice, instead of an automatic boon. They can choose to pick up whatever is needed. You could make it more flavorful by requiring that they find a mentor to teach them and spend a week training with them, or a month of solo training to develop it themselves.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-11, 10:33 PM
Here's a radical idea. Scrap fighter bonus feats entirely. Replace with a list of custom special abilities like the rogue has.

Instead give them the ability to train by exchanging a certain amount of xp in order to permanently learn a fighter bonus feat. They'd be able to train themselves to learn a maximum of one fighter feat per level. Each subsequent feat would cost more xp than the one before. Fighters could choose whether to level up faster, or slow down their progress to pick up more feats along the way.

What's nice about this is that fighter bonus feats instead become a logical choice, instead of an automatic boon. They can choose to pick up whatever is needed. You could make it more flavorful by requiring that they find a mentor to teach them and spend a week training with them, or a month of solo training to develop it themselves.

For more realistic D&D, that should be in play as standard for any feat learning, but when has D&D ever been realistic? :smallbiggrin:

I do like this idea, joking aside.

Lysander
2010-04-11, 10:53 PM
For more realistic D&D, that should be in play as standard for any feat learning, but when has D&D ever been realistic? :smallbiggrin:

I do like this idea, joking aside.

Plus, I like non-magical classes being able to somewhat replicate the benefits of magical crafting

Anonymouswizard
2010-04-12, 04:58 AM
I like this, although I would say:

Rename weapon choice to weapon of choice.

Make sure they have decent selection of abilities to replace their enhancement bonus with, and make it work on any weapon. Also let them make the +1 bonus from masterwork stack with the bonus from magic.

Maybe add DR, like the barbarian, but make it stack.

I think that letting them choose from a list of "talents" could work, maybe with prerequisites for certain talents (like evasion only works in light armour until level x, when it works in medium armour, requires dex 15+).

Skills would be useful, deffinitely spot and listen.

Zaakar
2010-04-12, 05:27 AM
Here's a radical idea. Scrap fighter bonus feats entirely. Replace with a list of custom special abilities like the rogue has.
Before I read the rest of your post, this reminded me of Jane Smith's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108643) variant.

I've been trying for some time to come up with a full fighter build, but so far I've come up with nothing that left me satisfied, so good luck :smallsmile:

Lysander
2010-04-12, 08:09 AM
Maybe we should make a list of what the fighter needs, and work from there. And by "needs" I mean what they need to be ideal at their niche in the party at any level, rather than making them an all purpose superbeing.

Gnomo
2010-04-13, 06:21 PM
Then let's define what the fighter should be able to do. This is my opinion.

1a: The fighter should be able to tank. This means to take a beatdown and still be on his two shoes, this also means been able to stop enemies on their tracks or at least distract them, or even compel foes to attack him instead of other members of the party.
1b: The fighter should be able to deal significant damage. This means that, even if it's not a good tank, should then be able to help finish the combats.
1c: The fighter should be able to modify the pace of the battle. This means that, even if it's not a good tank or a damage dealer, should then be able to change the pace of the battle somehow, whether it be by adding special conditions to enemies or improving the combat abilities of allies.
2: The fighter should be able to contribute outside of combat as well. This means to contribute by other means than simply roleplaying (this can be done even with a commoner character), and this means the ability to take some skill niche.
3: The fighter should be able to pull his own weight. This means the fighter shouldn't be fragile, or easily discarded from a combat, the fighter should be a pest to enemies.

Godskook
2010-04-13, 09:07 PM
First reaction:

Doesn't fix anything, as all it does is give the fighter more bonus feats, but pre-picks them for him, followed by a class ability that actually punishes the fighter's already bought weapon.

------------------------

1.Enhancement bonuses are a really, really weak class ability, especially when gained so late in one's career that current weaponry already outclasses it until very late game. Also, Greater Magic Weapon exists, and have 5 class features that are negated by one 3rd level spell sucks. And then there's the issue that a lot of players plan on only having a +1 weapon with a +9 equivalent in abilities, and then to get said 3rd level spell. All you're doing is saving a very minor bit of cash with these.

2.You're free feats are in a single weapon, and one of the Fighter's original issues is these same feats being only applicable to one weapon. Not helping by just continuing the problem.

3.Essentially, your Fighter 20 gets +7 to-hit, +9 to damage and Keen at the cost of a single feat slot compared to a core fighter. On the other hand, a core fighter is already grabbing everything but the focus tree with his WBL, so essentially, you gave him some free WBL. How much? Probably about as much as Ancestral Relic already did. Considering a +10 weapon is worth 200k, and Ancestral Relic offers 160k for free, I'd say that this 'improvement' needs work.

Take a look at my Ascendant feats to see my attempt at making fighter feats that bring him up into mage-killing territory without overpowering him.

erikun
2010-04-13, 09:17 PM
I have to say, I agree with Godskook's assessment. What exactly do you think is wrong with the fighter than needs improvement? Answering that question will help us determine how well this improvement works.

Right now, the standard Fighter/Kensai is a far better improvement than this class.

Godskook
2010-04-13, 09:32 PM
I'd categorize the fighter's issues as such:

1.A lack of options, IC.(Generally speaking)

2.A lack of power comparable to his enemies.(Can't negate this, can't negate that)

Compare to a wizard, who can tank just as well as a fighter if he wanted to, often times with a single spell.

Runestar
2010-04-13, 09:46 PM
None of the proposed fixes seem geared towards shoring up the fighter's traditional weaknesses, IMO.

You are still screwed mobility-wise. your damage takes a hit if you ever have to move more than 5-ft, you are still taken out of the game if ever targeted by a will-save effect (due to your crap will save), combat maneuvers don't really favour you because foes generally outclass you in terms of size, str and bab, you suck as a tank as you can't really entice the enemy to want to attack you over anyone else, and there is a serious dearth of good higher-level feats that are comparable to other class features of that lv.

And lastly, the warblade already exists! :smalltongue:

erikun
2010-04-13, 10:08 PM
I'd categorize the fighter's issues as such:

1.A lack of options, IC.(Generally speaking)

2.A lack of power comparable to his enemies.(Can't negate this, can't negate that)

Compare to a wizard, who can tank just as well as a fighter if he wanted to, often times with a single spell.
This is true, and what I regard as the problems for the Fighter as well. My usual solution is "Warblade".

Unfortunately, that won't help Rin Hunter out very much if he considers something else to be the problem, or if he is just trying to fix it because everyone keeps calling the Fighter weak. :smalltongue:

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-13, 10:33 PM
Sorry that I haven't posted here in a while, but I've been moving house.

I'll be going through all comments soon, but not tonight, I'm afraid. Probably by the end of the week and I'll reply in as much depth as possible.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-15, 09:40 AM
Anonymouswizard
I like the idea of calling it Weapon of Choice, so I shall do that. I do think DR would be a good idea. Spot and Listen would make a good addition.

Zaakar
That is a very detailed Fighter variantÖ I think I still like trying my own, however.

Lysander and Gnomo
A list of what the Fighter needs is a good idea. Onto Gnomoís list:

1a: A Taunt ability (maybe an opposed level check) could be very useful.
1b: Maybe spread out the bonuses?
1c: Not sure how to comment on this without breaking the whole ďnon-magic FighterĒ thing Iíve got going.
2: Skills and other features should be added, I agree.
3: Isnít this true anyway in melee?

Godshook
1: I do thing that spreading out the enhancements would be quite useful actually. And Iím pretty sure that the minor bit of cash you mention could go into some very useful supplies instead.
2: Would you suggest changing these feats then?
3: Not sure how to comment on this and I shall look at your feats.

Runestar
Iím going to be working on improving those now that I know what everyone thinks of my current version. And I have no idea what a Warblade is.

Erikun
She.

Just a rough mock-up here that I'm making as I type this. Tell me what you think.
Fighter v2

New skills: Spot, Listen.

Lv01: Taunt, Weapon of Choice
Lv02: Weapon Enhancement +1
Lv03: Light Armour Expertise, Weapon Specialisation
Lv04: Weapon Enhancement +2
Lv05: Greater Weapon Focus
Lv06: Weapon Enhancement +3
Lv07: Greater Weapon Specialisation
Lv08: Weapon Enhancement +4
Lv09: Medium Armour Expertise, Improved Critical
Lv10: Weapon Enhancement +5
Lv11: Pounce, Bonus Feat
Lv12: Weapon Enhancement +6
Lv13: Bonus Feat
Lv14: Weapon Enhancement +7
Lv15: Heavy Armour Expertise, Bonus Feat
Lv16: Weapon Enhancement +8
Lv17: Bonus Feat
Lv18: Weapon Enhancement +9
Lv19: Bonus Feat
Lv20: Weapon Enhancement +10

Weapon of Choice: At first level a Fighter chooses a weapon and gains Weapon Focus with that weapon (and Exotic Weapon Proficiency, if applicable). This ability can be retrained to a different weapon by spending 1 hour in practice with the new weapon. The Weapon Focus feat tree as well as Improved Critical are all retrained to the new weapon (EWP is lost for the old weapon, if applicable).

Armour Expertise: Speed is not reduced while wearing armour and the character suffers two less armour check penalty to a minimum of 0.

Bonus Feats: Up until Lv09, the class dictates what bonus feats are gained, but after that every odd level gains a bonus feat drawn from the normal list.

Roderick_BR
2010-04-15, 01:00 PM
A while ago I made a fighter variant (that unfortunately fell under the radar), using some similar ideas to yours: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142814
I gave the weapon focus tree as class features, and have it improve by affecting larger groups of weapons, plus an ability similar to the warblade, that adds Int bonus to special maneuvers (attacks of opportunity, flank, etc), leaving the feats free to buy others things.
The magic bonus part, as was pointed out, looks a lot like adding the Kensai PrC to the fighter base class. Not sure if it would work well. There's an idea around about giving the palading the ability to make temporary special item, like the artificer, if you want to look into the self-sufficient fighter type.

Godskook
2010-04-15, 03:34 PM
You're still doing 90% of the things you were doing before, but a little more power thrown in that misguided direction.

A +10 enhancement bonus is...unusual, and getting it started at L2 is decent. Does it count as magical for DR purposes? If so, why does a mundane fighter get the ability to overcome DRl/Magic? If not, the ability is now at least decent as it stays ahead of the magic item curve, but since it gets and epic enhancement bonus pre-epic, that looks really weird, but it doesn't matter how much of an enhancement bonus you give them, as it doesn't really help the fighter's main issues, which aren't 'hitting' and 'damage'. Fighters do 'hitting' and 'damage' quite well without any homebrewed improvements.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-15, 04:41 PM
You're still doing 90% of the things you were doing before, but a little more power thrown in that misguided direction.

A +10 enhancement bonus is...unusual, and getting it started at L2 is decent. Does it count as magical for DR purposes? If so, why does a mundane fighter get the ability to overcome DRl/Magic? If not, the ability is now at least decent as it stays ahead of the magic item curve, but since it gets and epic enhancement bonus pre-epic, that looks really weird, but it doesn't matter how much of an enhancement bonus you give them, as it doesn't really help the fighter's main issues, which aren't 'hitting' and 'damage'. Fighters do 'hitting' and 'damage' quite well without any homebrewed improvements.

The whole weapon enhancement line was meant to follow the rules we've discussed in this thread, adding things like Sundering and maxing out at +5 enhancement with +5 worth of abilities. It wasn't meant for Epic enhancement rates, sorry you took it that way. I just assumed since it was in this thread that we were discussing that.

I would say no to it over-coming DR/Magic unless it actually has a magic weapon, as per the normal rules. This ability just allow the Fighter to use masterwork weapons with better skill, thus acting as though they had magical enhancement.

I've tried to go with what people have said in this thread so far. I've made changes to deal with the Fighter's movement problems, giving it pounce and allowing it to move further in heavier armour. I've changed Weapon of Choice to allow for changing the weapons. And I don't see what else I could do to the skills, since I don't think its skill list is that bad for what it is meant to be. What else could I change then?

Godskook
2010-04-15, 05:47 PM
The whole weapon enhancement line was meant to follow the rules we've discussed in this thread, adding things like Sundering and maxing out at +5 enhancement with +5 worth of abilities. It wasn't meant for Epic enhancement rates, sorry you took it that way. I just assumed since it was in this thread that we were discussing that.

Ok.

1.There's no conceptual reasoning behind getting these again. This is just reposting, but there needs to at least be some attempt at fluffing abilities to fit the class's abilities, or you'll be leaving behind some of the best stuff of 3.5

2.Its still, over 20 levels, the equivalent of a feat, and a non-great one.

3.The fighter's main problem *ISN'T* having a level-appropriate weapon, or hitting his opponents with it. The fighter's main problem is that he needs WBL to be competitive. A Swordsage, Totemist, or Psion can all be combat effective without a single magic item. They'll help, but the class still has tricks without them. Your fighter? Doesn't.

4.How does the weapon's abilities get assigned? The crunch side is incredibly silent. Is it required to be a +5 enhancement weapon, or can someone go with a +1 with +9 equivalent abilities?


I would say no to it over-coming DR/Magic unless it actually has a magic weapon, as per the normal rules. This ability just allow the Fighter to use masterwork weapons with better skill, thus acting as though they had magical enhancement.

:smallconfused:

You've taken away the one good part about having a class-ability enhancement bonus.


I've tried to go with what people have said in this thread so far.

Really, cause you've seemed to have missed most of my suggestions. But to rehash them:

Post 1, comment 1 - You missed my main point and focused on a side issue. Point being, all that weapon +X bonus boils down to the value of a single feat, so its a really worthless ability to take up 10 slots. Delete these or condense to a single, low-level slot, and find something else to give the fighter for the other 9 levels you're currently trying to fill with 1/10th of a feat.

Post 1, comment 2 - Ok, you actually took this one full-out. Just realized that you took away 5 feats to do it. That's bad.

Post 1, comment 3 - Same as comment 1, really.

Post 2, comment 1 - Still lacks options. Your fighter is just as good outside of combat as the core fighter is. Spot and Listen means he can actually be trusted to post guard, but only if those are his only two skills he focuses on. Otherwise the Ranger *still* makes fun of him for that one too. He needs more skill points and a slightly better list, including such unique abilities as balance and use rope. He also needs a social role to fill. Either as the intimidating brute, the diplomatic captain, the lying mercenary, or investigating guardsman, he *NEEDS* to be able to do something related to talking to people without having to cross-class all his skill points. There's also the fact that, unlike say a knight or crusader, he doesn't get any skills that help him tank. Short of reach(which class abilities don't help with), he can't protect his team mates from enemies.

Post 2, comment 2 - Still has no ability to put his powers to bear against a 9th level spell, power, or maneuver. Your solution so far boils down to 'give him more cash and he can buy a win'.


I've made changes to deal with the Fighter's movement problems, giving it pounce and allowing it to move further in heavier armour. I've changed Weapon of Choice to allow for changing the weapons. And I don't see what else I could do to the skills, since I don't think its skill list is that bad for what it is meant to be. What else could I change then?

Give him *abilities* not feats. Actually homebrew something instead of doing lego-brew where you piece already existing things together.

Also, half the abilities are buried in the table, so its really hard to see what's changed and what hasn't. Right now is when I finally noticed that you did, indeed, add pounce, which is a L1 Barbarian class ability, and that one level comes with increased HP, skill points, and a better skill list(Has intimidate and survival on it).

Also, fluffing things will help.

Lysander
2010-04-15, 06:56 PM
The thing is, I don't think the fighter needs to be good in a lot of different situations. Just most combat situations. There's nothing wrong with specializing. The fighter should excel at what's on the box: fighting.

So let's imagine him as a team player. He's not meant to win in a 1 vs 1 fight against a flying invisible wizard. He's meant to work with a group of allies, including spellcasters, to vanquish a variety of foes.

These should be our goals:

1. A fighter should be a threat in a one on one fight against most non-casters. Against full casters a fighter probably won't triumph in many 1 vs 1 but should be difficult to kill quickly due to good saves and high hit points.
2. A fighter and a full caster working together should be able to defeat two full casters working together, due to synergy between buffer and buffee.
3. A fighter and a full caster working together should have a better chance of surviving random encounters, battles with monsters, and exploration than two full casters working together, due to synergy between buffer and buffee.
4. Against mostly non-magical opponents a fighter should excel both in duels against talented enemies and in massive battles with many weaker enemies.
5. A 3.5 fighter's abilities should always be ready. They should have no X/day X/encounter abilities.
6. A fighter's abilities should not be based on magic, ki, psionic, or anything remotely supernatural.
7. We should assume that fighters will get (and sometimes need) magic gear and weapons. The fighter's abilities should synergize with their equipment, not be overshadowed by it.
8. It's ok for fighters to suck at most things outside of combat but players shouldn't be prevented from roleplaying out of combat.

Does that seem like a reasonable set of goals?

WeLoveFireballs
2010-04-15, 08:50 PM
The thing is, I don't think the fighter needs to be good in a lot of different situations. Just most combat situations. There's nothing wrong with specializing. The fighter should excel at what's on the box: fighting.

So let's imagine him as a team player. He's not meant to win in a 1 vs 1 fight against a flying invisible wizard. He's meant to work with a group of allies, including spellcasters, to vanquish a variety of foes.

These should be our goals:

1. A fighter should be a threat in a one on one fight against most non-casters. Against full casters a fighter probably won't triumph in many 1 vs 1 but should be difficult to kill quickly due to good saves and high hit points.
2. A fighter and a full caster working together should be able to defeat two full casters working together, due to synergy between buffer and buffee.
3. A fighter and a full caster working together should have a better chance of surviving random encounters, battles with monsters, and exploration than two full casters working together, due to synergy between buffer and buffee.
4. Against mostly non-magical opponents a fighter should excel both in duels against talented enemies and in massive battles with many weaker enemies.
5. A 3.5 fighter's abilities should always be ready. They should have no X/day X/encounter abilities.
6. A fighter's abilities should not be based on magic, ki, psionic, or anything remotely supernatural.
7. We should assume that fighters will get (and sometimes need) magic gear and weapons. The fighter's abilities should synergize with their equipment, not be overshadowed by it.
8. It's ok for fighters to suck at most things outside of combat but players shouldn't be prevented from roleplaying out of combat.

Does that seem like a reasonable set of goals?


Yes.....Yes it does. The initial design of the fighter on this page appaled me. I despise any attempts to add supernatural abilities to nonmagical classes. The way it should be is that there are no magic using people just because they are really good at using a sword (like the Warblade) and no more magic users in armor (other than bards). Fourth edition destroyed every last ounce of realisim in this game so please don't bring that trash backwards into the best edition, 3.5.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-16, 04:20 AM
Right... I think that I'm going to work to Lysander's list to make the next version while incorporating as much of Godshook's suggestions as possible. I'll repost when I've finished my assignments that are due today.

This thread is going to be the death of me.

Random_person
2010-04-16, 04:38 AM
I think that part of the problem with most fighter fixes is that they are written by people who just can't imagine how awesome a level 20 fighter should be. IM(NS)HO, a fighter should be reliably breaking the laws of physics in combat at about level 10, because he's that awesome.

For that reason, I suggest a look at Exalted for a few ideas. Steal the higher-essence Melee charms, some Martial Arts styles if you like, but most importantly don't be afraid to shatter the laws of physics.

I wonder what the stats on the laws of physics are? If I can hit them with a 1d2 crusader...

Cogidubnus
2010-04-16, 05:02 AM
Just a thought. I read on here a couple of times that one problem with fighters is they can't tank - nobody can be bothered to attack them while under fire. In 4e, Fighters can mark an enemy, meaning they get an attack of opportunity if that enemy attacks anyone else (it might even include if they 5' step away, I forget). Something similar to this, along with Combat Reflexes or some variant, might persuade monsters to go for the fighter first. Not sure how to make it work though.

Cogidubnus
2010-04-16, 05:19 AM
Also, if you were thinking of using the idea of adding special abilities, how about this: A fighter may sacrifice her personal enhancement bonus to apply one or more of the following abilities, to a total no greater than her personal enhancement bonus:

+1 = Defending, Keen, Merciful, Mighty Cleaving, Throwing, Distance, Sundering, Sweeping
+2 = Wounding, Collision, Disarming, Stunning
+3 = Speed
+5 = Vorpal, Coup de Grace

This deals with the problem of no abilities for +4. It's hardly perfect, but might make this ability slightly more useful and threatening. Also, I included Keen because it was part of the original list, but it's obselete unless you let it stack with Improved Critical.

And you really shouldn't let Improved Critical stack with Keen. I could get my Greatsword having crits 6/10 of the time

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-16, 09:04 AM
And you really shouldn't let Improved Critical stack with Keen. I could get my Greatsword having crits 6/10 of the time

On the contrary: they probably should (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/keenimprovedcritstacking.html)

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-16, 09:21 AM
Iím going to be working on improving those now that I know what everyone thinks of my current version. And I have no idea what a Warblade is.


:smalleek::smallmad::smallfurious: /foams at the mouth and falls unconscious.

But seriously, before you try and create a decent fighter, you should really read up on a REALLY WELL DONE melee class that works.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-16, 09:24 AM
:smalleek::smallmad::smallfurious: /foams at the mouth and falls unconscious.

But seriously, before you try and create a decent fighter, you should really read up on a REALLY WELL DONE melee class that works.

Is it in the Tome of Battle? If so I'll need to get the .pdf book.

Lysander
2010-04-16, 10:01 AM
Maybe instead of calling it an enhancement bonus just call it a untyped bonus to attack and damage? Then it can stack with any enhancement bonus the weapon provides.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-16, 10:33 AM
Is it in the Tome of Battle? If so I'll need to get the .pdf book.

It is indeed. It doesn't perfectly fix the fighter, but looking over it should give you some pointers on reducing dump stats, improving skills, granting more combat options, etc.

Cogidubnus
2010-04-16, 02:06 PM
On the contrary: they probably should (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/keenimprovedcritstacking.html)

See, if I have, say, a fighter with a bastard sword, using keen and improved critical (from the above example) a 13 or higher would score a critical. With a magic weapon, and a high strength bonus, not to mention greater weapon specialisation, you're looking at maybe 2d10+20 damage almost half of the time, if they're wielding it one-handed. That is a significant improvement over the original.

Godskook
2010-04-16, 02:49 PM
@Rin, here's the class:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2

And here's some of the maneuvers he can select:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=4


See, if I have, say, a fighter with a bastard sword, using keen and improved critical (from the above example) a 13 or higher would score a critical. With a magic weapon, and a high strength bonus, not to mention greater weapon specialisation, you're looking at maybe 2d10+20 damage almost half of the time, if they're wielding it one-handed. That is a significant improvement over the original.

So?

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-16, 03:03 PM
See, if I have, say, a fighter with a bastard sword, using keen and improved critical (from the above example) a 13 or higher would score a critical. With a magic weapon, and a high strength bonus, not to mention greater weapon specialisation, you're looking at maybe 2d10+20 damage almost half of the time, if they're wielding it one-handed. That is a significant improvement over the original.

So a one- or two-handed weapon can deal respectable damage now if they've spent at least four feats and enchanted their weapon? I don't see a problem with that. That makes sword-and-board more viable and lets zweihanders do something else besides Power Attacking ad nauseam.

Cogidubnus
2010-04-16, 04:11 PM
If you're going to spend the feats etc. that's fine, just in this context, by 11th level you're getting that free and dealing a lot more damage than comparable classes (barbarian and paladin don't deal that much regular damage, even with rage/smite evil).

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-16, 04:27 PM
If you're going to spend the feats etc. that's fine, just in this context, by 11th level you're getting that free and dealing a lot more damage than comparable classes (barbarian and paladin don't deal that much regular damage, even with rage/smite evil).

And barbarians and paladins are perfectly capable of focusing on crits as well. Barbarians will usually deal more damage than fighters while raging (which will usually be at least the first portion of most combats) and paladins deal respectable spike damage against evil creatures. Crits do just as well with the barbarian's extra damage from Strength boosts and paladin's smite as they do with the Weapon Spec tree.

Frozen_Feet
2010-04-16, 04:44 PM
I think you're starting to run into a problem that ToB seemingly realized and adressed: revamping the fighter is hard without stepping on the toes of other martial classes, so if you really want to bring fighter up, you might redo monk, paladin and what have you as well -_-

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-17, 04:41 AM
Lysander: Untyped attack and damage bonuses would make sense if I'm not allowing it to bypass DR. It was originally meant to represent skill and training with a weapon, so that could work.

Cogidubnus: I see no problem with a Fighter doing that much damage.

Godshook: Thanks for the links, I'll read them over when I have the time.

Frozen_Feet: I removed the Monk from my setting anyway since it didn't fit, I've yet to look over Barbarian, and I've made a Paladin variant called the Champion that is flexible in alignment to some degree (By stealing a few Incarnum stuff, like Detect Opposition). The Champion is still in development, but I'll probably post it when we're finished with the Fighter so that you lot can tear it apart too. :smallamused:

Cogidubnus
2010-04-17, 01:06 PM
I don't see the small bonuses barbarians or paladins get to damage (one's circumstantial and limited, the other's similarly limited and has several disadvantages) quite equaling nearly doubling the fighter's damage output by giving them access to free feats/class abilities granting so many crits. Can someone explain what makes the fighter so much weaker in straight melee than the barbarian?

Runestar
2010-04-17, 08:53 PM
Can someone explain what makes the fighter so much weaker in straight melee than the barbarian?

I have always found them comparable - the barb's rage more or less simulates weapon focus/spec in terms of to-hit/damage bonuses. Anything the barb can take (such as pounce, robilar's gambit, shock trooper, frenzied berserker) the fighter can also take simply by splashing 1-2 lvs of barb. With extra rage, the barb can pretty much afford to rage at the start of each fight at lv4+ anyways.

I suppose if the fighter gets a boost, the barb and paladin may need an upwards revision as well. Though I don't think the solution to a fighter's woes can simply be resolved by increasing their damage output, since from experience, they already have no problems dishing out decent-large amounts of damage (and do it much more efficiently than a wizard).

If anything, the warblade actually loses to the fighter in terms of damage output (as strikes tend to be inferior to full-attacks damage-wise), but they compensate through more versatility in other areas, so you can still contribute meaningfully in battle regardless of what comes your way. For example, if the warblade cannot attack the foe for some reason, he can still use white raven tactics to supply the wizard with extra actions and attack indirectly through the party spellcaster, therefore preventing him from becoming dead weight.

You are simply solving the wrong problem, IMO. The fighter still ends up being a 1-trick pony who has to sit out any fight the moment he so much as gets targeted by any will-save effect, or be resigned to dealing anemic damage vs highly mobile foes. :smalltongue:

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-17, 10:46 PM
Though I don't think the solution to a fighter's woes can simply be resolved by increasing their damage output, since from experience, they already have no problems dishing out decent-large amounts of damage (and do it much more efficiently than a wizard).

Note that increasing the fighter's damage capability can still be a good thing if it either (A) increases the damage of the suboptimal fighter styles more than THF, to make more builds work well or (B) frees up more resources to be used in other areas. Tome of Battle does both of these (first by having strikes that deal enough extra damage that S&B and TWF work without needing the extra die and +0.5 Str of THF, and second by folding the damage in with other effects so you don't need to spend some slots on damaging strikes and others on good strikes), but that's not the only way to do it.

Ashtagon
2010-04-18, 01:01 AM
The big problem with the fighter isn't really the damage output, it's the lack of options. A fighter (using core only) doesn't really have any options about where or how to attack, unless he is made sub-optimal, and even then he would have to spend an action to change to a different set of weapons. Even the barbarian gets a choice on when/whether to enter rage. A fighter's bonuses are all static bonuses, so he doesn't get to make any tactical decisions with them.

Runestar
2010-04-18, 04:11 AM
Even the barbarian gets a choice on when/whether to enter rage.

Limited uses of rage early on non-withstanding, is there ever a reason why a barb would not enter rage the moment combat starts? Take away his rage and he is really just a glorified warrior with more hp and dr.

I could use the fighter's bonus feats to simulate the benefits of rage, meaning that he virtually has rage on 24/7. How is that a bad thing?

Ashtagon
2010-04-18, 04:43 AM
A barbarian's decision to rage or not is still one more decision that fighters get.

And yes, a fighter's feats could be used to simulate a permanent rage-on. But without any decisions to be made in-game, it's still dull as mud. In terms of decisions-at=the-gaming-table, no class beats the fighter for dullness, although barbarian is a close second. Although the barbarian can make a competent tracker if he selects that feat.

The splatbooks fixed it somewhat, but badly. Splatbook fighter is about on a par with core ranger or paladin for being interesting to play. But I don't see many groups allowing splatbooks for a single class.

Ravens_Wing
2010-04-18, 06:25 PM
I like the idea of the magical enhacements but you need to take keen off the list. ( It doesn't stack with inproved Crit. ) other than that it's an interesting concept.

Runestar
2010-04-18, 09:14 PM
A barbarian's decision to rage or not is still one more decision that fighters get.

1 more decision, yes. One more meaningful decision, not quite, IMO.

At lv4+, my barb with extra rage (hence netting rage 4/day) will always rage the first chance he gets in combat, it is pretty much a no-brainer. There are no extenuating circumstances to consider, since the bonuses I get from raging outweigh the loss of -2AC. In fact, it gets irritating having to declare this at the start of every encounter.

I don't find the barb any more exciting to play (they both just move+attack). The barb has the advantage of being easier and more intuitive to play though, since his key strengths are already locked in as class features, so it is harder to screw him up compared to a fighter who just gets bonus feats (leaving the onus of sifting out the hundreds of crappy feats from the few good ones entirely on the shoulders of the poor beginner still trying to grasp the rules). :smalleek:

Bergor Terraf
2010-04-19, 03:46 PM
What I always found to be the problem with the fighter is that his only special ability is to get more feats than anyone else. Other classes can use feats to complement there class abilities, fighter only has feats. There is something missing.

I tought about creating new "super feats" only accesible to fighter that would fill this hole. Or just call them "fighter training" or something and make it work like the rogues special abilities they start getting at level 10.

Off the top of my head :

- A taunt ability
- a good bonus to will saves (maybe half level?) that gets smaller each time they're targeted by a mind affecting spell or ability (can resist a few but they take their toll)
- combat readiness : can sleep in armor with no penalties and can take a movement or standard action during a surprise round
- Abilities that need a certain atributes to be the highest to be taken. For exemple, if Dex is your highest stat, you can take an ability to make 2 (or more) attacks with a standard action. Wisdom could give blind sight, Cha could give more otion with intimidate, etc.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-21, 11:13 AM
Fighter v3

HD: d10
BAB: Good
F/R/W: All Good
Skills (2+Int mod): Balance, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Ride, Spot, Swim

01: Weapon of Choice (Atk +1), Taunt
02: Bonus Feat, Combat Stride +5ft
03: Weapon of Choice (Atk +1, Dmg +1)
04: Bonus Feat, DR2/-
05: Weapon of Choice (Atk +2, Dmg +1, Threat +1)
06: Bonus Feat, Combat Stride +10ft, Pounce
07: Weapon of Choice (Atk +3, Dmg +2, Threat +1)
08: Bonus Feat, DR4/-
09: Weapon of Choice (Atk +4, Dmg +3, Threat +2)
10: Bonus Feat, Combat Stride +15ft, Medium Armour Expertise
11: Weapon of Choice (Atk +5, Dmg +4, Threat +3)
12: Bonus Feat, DR6/-
13: Weapon of Choice (Atk +6, Dmg +5, Threat +4)
14: Bonus Feat, Combat Stride +20ft
15: Weapon of Choice (Atk +7, Dmg +6, Threat +5)
16: Bonus Feat, DR8/-, Heavy Armour Expertise
17: Weapon of Choice (Atk +8, Dmg +7, Threat +6)
18: Bonus Feat, Combat Stride +25ft
19: Weapon of Choice (Atk +9, Dmg +8, Threat +7)
20: Bonus Feat, DR10/-

Weapon of Choice: A Fighter may select a weapon to train with, gaining various bonuses as he gets more experienced with it. As a Fighter gains levels, he becomes more accurate and can deal more damage with a weapon. He gains bonuses to attack and damage and an increased threat range.
The damage bonus granted by this ability is not reduced by damage reduction and is multiplied by a critical hit. The bonus to threat range is not effected by Improved Critical or a Keen weapon (or any similar effect).
A Fighter may practice with a weapon for 1 hour to change his weapon of choice to the new weapon.

Taunt (Ex): A Fighter is able to goad others into attack him. As a move action, a Fighter may make an opposed level check against a number of targets equal to his Fighter level rounded down (minimum 1). The target(s) will then concentrate any attacks or action made against the Fighter instead of the Fighter's allies if the Fighter wins the level check for a number of rounds equal to the Fighter's charisma bonus (minimum 1).

Combat Stride (Ex): In combat, a Fighter is able to move faster as result of training and experiece. The Fighter gains an additional 5ft of movement in combat at level 2. his increases by 5ft every 4 levels.

Bonus Feat: At every even level, a Fighter gains a bonus feat that is taken from the Fighter list.

Damage Reduction (Ex): Every 4 levels, a Fighter is able to shirk off an amount of damage each hit. This increases by 2 at each level that is a multiple of 4.

Pounce (Ex): At 6th level, a Fighter has practiced enough to make multiple attacks after charging an opponent.
Fire away.

itastelikelove
2010-04-22, 03:20 AM
First impressions: looks more like a barbarian than a fighter to me, with the movement bonus and DR/-.

From the top:

Good Will Save is nice. Add some fluff on your final writeup about training and willpower, and I don't think anyone'll complain. Good Reflex Save: not so much. It fits for lightweight fighters, but not heavyweights. If you think they really need an improvement there, I'm a fan of the Kensai's 'Withstand' ability (Complete Warrior)...It might be a bit overpowered, but it also only affects damaging spells.

Skills: Definitely better than the PHB Fighter. I wouldn't argue with a few more skill points, maybe even a couple other skills on the list, but that'll do just fine.

Not sure if Taunt is too good or not good enough...mostly because I don't know how opposed level checks tend to go - I can't recall if there are common bonuses for that kind of thing. Actually, no, scratch that. It's not good enough. BECAUSE...you'll never be able to taunt a dragon (i'm assuming monsters use HD instead of levels. Correct me if I'm wrong). Not that that should be easy, necessarily - just that creatures with more HD or levels than you are the ones you need to pay the most attention to. I think it would work better to have it affect one target (maybe a few additional, at higher levels) reliably.

Weapon of Choice:The attack and damage bonuses are fine, although the attack bonus doesn't really need to be that high. Unless you really want to make sure that your players can get their full Power Attack bonus without any consequences. Crit threat bonuses? interesting...but I would rather see Improved Crit stack with Keen (for the record: double+double=triple. not quadruple.). Not so much because it's less ridiculous, as because crit ranges scale better that way. As you have it, a falchion would deal double damage 70% of the time (wow.), while a scythe would deal quadruple damage 50% of the time (WOW...). With a double Improved crit effect, that comes out to 45% and 15%. I think it's important that quadruple crits happen much less often than regular ones.

Combat Stride and DR X/- work out alright. Again, they're trademarks of the Barbarian class, but it looks like you're trying to surpass the Barbarian anyway, so the treading of toes isn't a huge issue here. I don't think I would give them quite that much of a movement bonus, though. maybe just enough to counter the effects of their heavy armor.

Pounce: Yeah. Everybody loves it.

Armor Expertise? Looks like you forgot the description there. Even without it, though...it seems strange to give the heavy version so much later...that's a long time for heavy fighters to feel left out.

Got a few good things in there, but...I miss the 'swap bonuses for faux-enchantments' ability. Where'd it go? :smallfrown: I would trade damage for tactical abilities any day - especially if you can also throw in some daze, nauseate, and stun effects. I mean, you're not using Monks in your campaign, right? Someone needs to have a little fun with people who can't fight back.

Godskook
2010-04-22, 11:41 AM
1.Weapon of Choice and the DR needs to be condensed into a single listed ability. At present, they clutter the table needlessly for abilities that are more accurately described as "given once and scale" rather than what's there. I've adjusted the DR for you.

2.I'm not sure I know what Weapon of Choice is doing. Does a L20 fighter end up with (+18/+9/+8) respectively, or just (+2/+1/+1)?

3.A level check will only be useful in the context of things with mostly class levels. Other things tend not to handle level checks well, and congratulations on running aground of a similar problem to one I hit a while back.

HD: d10
BAB: Good
F/R/W: All Good
Skills (2+Int mod): Balance, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Ride, Spot, Swim

01: Weapon of Choice (Atk +1), Taunt
02: Bonus Feat, Combat Stride +5ft
03: Weapon of Choice (Atk +1, Dmg +1)
04: Bonus Feat, Damage Reduction
05: Weapon of Choice (Atk +2, Dmg +1, Threat +1)
06: Bonus Feat, Combat Stride +10ft, Pounce
07: Weapon of Choice (Atk +2, Dmg +1, Threat +1)
08: Bonus Feat
09: Weapon of Choice (Atk +2, Dmg +1, Threat +1)
10: Bonus Feat, Combat Stride +15ft, Medium Armour Expertise
11: Weapon of Choice (Atk +2, Dmg +1, Threat +1)
12: Bonus Feat
13: Weapon of Choice (Atk +2, Dmg +1, Threat +1)
14: Bonus Feat, Combat Stride +20ft
15: Weapon of Choice (Atk +2, Dmg +1, Threat +1)
16: Bonus Feat, Heavy Armour Expertise
17: Weapon of Choice (Atk +2, Dmg +1, Threat +1)
18: Bonus Feat, Combat Stride +25ft
19: Weapon of Choice (Atk +2, Dmg +1, Threat +1)
20: Bonus Feat

Weapon of Choice: A Fighter may select a weapon to train with, gaining various bonuses as he gets more experienced with it. As a Fighter gains levels, he becomes more accurate and can deal more damage with a weapon. He gains bonuses to attack and damage and an increased threat range.
The damage bonus granted by this ability is not reduced by damage reduction and is multiplied by a critical hit. The bonus to threat range is not effected by Improved Critical or a Keen weapon (or any similar effect).
A Fighter may practice with a weapon for 1 hour to change his weapon of choice to the new weapon.

Taunt (Ex): A Fighter is able to goad others into attack him. As a move action, a Fighter may make an opposed level check against a number of targets equal to his Fighter level rounded down (minimum 1). The target(s) will then concentrate any attacks or action made against the Fighter instead of the Fighter's allies if the Fighter wins the level check for a number of rounds equal to the Fighter's charisma bonus (minimum 1).

Combat Stride (Ex): In combat, a Fighter is able to move faster as result of training and experiece. The Fighter gains an additional 5ft of movement in combat at level 2. his increases by 5ft every 4 levels.

Bonus Feat: At every even level, a Fighter gains a bonus feat that is taken from the Fighter list.

Damage Reduction (Ex): At 4th level, a Fighter is able to shirk off an amount of damage each hit. He gains damage reduction equal to half his fighter class levels.

Pounce (Ex): At 6th level, a Fighter has practiced enough to make multiple attacks after charging an opponent.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-22, 05:00 PM
Less fire than I thought. Anyway, since I missed the explination, I may as well add it here.

Armour Expertise (Ex): A Fighter can adapt to wearing heavier armours as he gains more practice. The Fighter's speed is not reduced when wearing medium armour after level 10 and the Armour Check Penalty is lessened by 2. This extends to heavy armour at level 16.

Taunt could do with improvement, yeah... I suppose. Not sure how though. Maybe make it an intimidate check or something? Not sure.

Weapon of Choice causes the Fighter to have +29/+24/+19/+14 at level 20. I made some errors with my copy and paste there :smallbiggrin: Editing that hopefully before you see this post~ The threat increase was added because I felt it made sense and just adding to attack and damage felt a little under what I was aiming for.

Combat Stride only functions in combat. The Barbarian still gets full use of its Fast Movement outside of combat, such as chasing down someone or making a quick delivery across town.

The DR has also been increased for the Barbarian, but it's a class I've mostly not touched yet. I like your fix, Godshook.

The all good saves are to represent that a Fighter hones his mind and body for any situation where his skills will be of use... Or some other fluff, but I liked the idea so I threw it out there.

Off topic: Thinking of making a single thread for all my variants...

Runestar
2010-04-23, 12:46 AM
Personally, I prefer the idea of /encounter abilities which grant temporary bonuses to your stats, rather than always-on passive abilities.

Take for instance, will saves. I would advocate the idea of say, cumbrous will (savage species) or that divine fighter variant in complete champion, rather than simply giving fighters all good saves. There is no reason why they should have such good reflexes or fort saves, but I can see them drawing upon hidden reserves of strength in times of desperation to augment their abilities.

itastelikelove
2010-04-23, 03:11 AM
The threat increase was added because I felt it made sense and just adding to attack and damage felt a little under what I was aiming for.
Okay...but I would recommend something more like: double threat range at level 7, triple at 15. Or even double at 7, triple at 11, quadruple at 15. (those probably shouldn't stack with IC or keen, because they're plenty good enough already. especially that second version.) That way, you preserve the difference between high threat weapons and low threat weapons. Otherwise, your Fighters will all be running around with picks and scythes.


Personally, I prefer the idea of /encounter abilities which grant temporary bonuses to your stats, rather than always-on passive abilities.
For the record, I prefer abilities that are always active in certain situations, or always active but not always a good idea: Maybe you could get one reroll against each enchantment or fear or morale effect, but not for other Will saves, like illusions. Or maybe add half your class level to any one save as a free action, but take an equal penalty to AC and all saves for the next full round.


Taunt could do with improvement, yeah... I suppose. Not sure how though. Maybe make it an intimidate check or something? Not sure.
Yeah, that's always a tough one...especially since there's no real precedent anywhere in the 3.5 rules. Maybe an Intimidate check opposed by a Will save? Maybe no defense, but you have to hit them with a melee attack with a sizable attack penalty? I also like the idea of not forcing someone to attack you, but instead punishing them for ignoring you. Lots of AoOs, spell interruption, tripping, free movement, penalties for trying to move or tumble past, etc.

Oh, and if I'm repeating myself...it's just because I'm too sleepy to go back and read my own comments. Sorry, just in case.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-23, 06:43 AM
Dying here, people :smallconfused:

People keep saying different things that contradict and I don't know who to go with...

Roderick_BR
2010-04-23, 10:19 AM
For the record, I prefer abilities that are always active in certain situations, or always active but not always a good idea: Maybe you could get one reroll against each enchantment or fear or morale effect, but not for other Will saves, like illusions. Or maybe add half your class level to any one save as a free action, but take an equal penalty to AC and all saves for the next full round.
That's what the celestial fighter ACF does, you can trade up to half your BAB for a Will bonus.
I agree that action and reaction strong abilities are cooler than weaker passive bonuses. Compare a bard's inspiring song to others "do it now" abilities like ToB's maneuvers.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-23, 10:27 AM
I think I'm going to have to pass on anything from the Tome of Battle since I haven't read any of it.

Per encounter abilities would work well, but I'm unsure where to start with any of this.

I think I'd prefer further discussion of this to be moved to my Variant Systems thread, as I'd prefer to keep everything in one place.